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| Ghrasp |
 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: some crazy humoristic paradoxes ? |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 13
Location: Netherlands
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If two people of the same length would go for a travel on an airplane and a spaceship to check quantumfysics and relativity and have agreed to cut a wire during the trip that has to be of the same length of a rod they leave behind and that is measured at an ecqual length of both persons before departure.
In their own referentialsystem they both would see a different length for the rod they leave behind according to relativity and quantumfysics. So both would cut two wires of different length ??
But the length of the original would hardly change due to the astronauts and the spaceship I assume.
In that case most likely none of the wires will have a length that ecquals the length of the rod in a comparison after they return.
Both wires if of different length cant be ecqual in length to the original that is offcourse not possible. Not only after the trip but also not during the trip.
Now suppose they take a copy of the rod with them. Then it is easy to copy that one with the wire and it will be of the same length as the original after return and comparing the lengths.
But in that case did they both have a different impression of the length of the rod they left behind or didn’t they notice the change the copy undergoes in its dimensions during the travel because they change with it themselves ?
The copy has a different length in different circumstances so the three rods are not the same rod ; it,s three different rods otherwise they would be at the same place all the time.
So in a comparison they think they see the original change it,s length but actually they see the copy change in comparison and they dont see the original during the trip.
So if they "see" the length of the original both different because in different referentialsystems it must be a subjective notion, they both obviously "see" it wrong as a result of the comparison. A thing cant have two different lengths at the same time.
It is easy to say welcome to the world of quantumfysics.
Does length exist on its own ? No always in comparisons, relationships and width, distances etc.
In this case there is a comparison between something inside the referentialsystem of both and something outside of it. but the difference cant be claimed for the same thing, it must have to do with the other part of the comparison, the rod they take with them for the comparison.
They just forget they undergo the same change, hence do not notice the change of the rod they take with them cause it is the same change. Taking these rods as an absolute measurment of the world outside their own referentialsystem causes the paradox.
The same logic can be applied to time also ; in that case the rod is a watch.
After they return to earth and meet again they can shake hands. This possibility allone means there couldn,t really be a different length in time of there trips, in that case one would shake hands also before the other and that is not the idea of shaking hands.
Time can be defined as the distance between two events, shaking hands before and after the trip. The time in between must be the same for everyone or people would constantly be shaking hands at different moments. |
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| Ghrasp |
| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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What I was trying to explain is that a second obviously is not every second and a meter not every meter. Why is it fysics holds on to this ? Is it because without something that is constant (a sec, a kg or a meter) a formula is impossible ?
For example in formulas where there is changing of time and other parameter mostly the sec as a unit stays unchanged or a meter. Every formula is dependant of some parameter/unit that is constant. So different formulas every time different parameters are pragmatically taken as a constant and thereby funktion as a perspective point of view that itself is not moved. Because if it does move it would also change.
This can very easy be proven and is proven with some atomclocks aboard of a supersonic airplane.
Suppose the clock on board would not be inside the plane but mounted on the ouside of the plane so that it is visible for people standing on the ground.
They would see clocks behave like on the painting of dali with misformed clocks. The seconds of these clocks are not the same seconds because they are not the same clocks even if exact copy,s.
If the clock in or on the plane has a higher rhytm in the direkt - visible -comparison with the one on the ground that is the same for all viewers beit on board of the plane or on the ground.
Off course it changes as the plane flies around the earth then both clocks can,t be seen at the same time. But a clock has some kind of a memory. The hours say how many minutes or seconds the clock has "lived".
So after return the clocks can be held beside each other.
One clock (the one on the plane) for people on the ground has lived more minutes in the same time so has become older in the same time not younger. |
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| PritishKamat |
| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Forum Sophomore
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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Location: Mumbai, India
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Wait, do they measure the length using a ruler or a measuring tape? If yes, then length contraction occurs to the tape also, and so, if later, the cut lengths are measured (in same reference frame), they will be of the same length.
_________________
Beyond Equations,
Pritish |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 828
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| Ghrasp wrote: |
What I was trying to explain is that a second obviously is not every second and a meter not every meter. Why is it fysics holds on to this ? Is it because without something that is constant (a sec, a kg or a meter) a formula is impossible ?
For example in formulas where there is changing of time and other parameter mostly the sec as a unit stays unchanged or a meter. Every formula is dependant of some parameter/unit that is constant. So different formulas every time different parameters are pragmatically taken as a constant and thereby funktion as a perspective point of view that itself is not moved. Because if it does move it would also change.
This can very easy be proven and is proven with some atomclocks aboard of a supersonic airplane.
Suppose the clock on board would not be inside the plane but mounted on the ouside of the plane so that it is visible for people standing on the ground.
They would see clocks behave like on the painting of dali with misformed clocks. The seconds of these clocks are not the same seconds because they are not the same clocks even if exact copy,s.
If the clock in or on the plane has a higher rhytm in the direkt - visible -comparison with the one on the ground that is the same for all viewers beit on board of the plane or on the ground.
Off course it changes as the plane flies around the earth then both clocks can,t be seen at the same time. But a clock has some kind of a memory. The hours say how many minutes or seconds the clock has "lived".
So after return the clocks can be held beside each other.
One clock (the one on the plane) for people on the ground has lived more minutes in the same time so has become older in the same time not younger. |
If they can keep the ambient voltage around the atomic clock the same as it was on the ground around another atomic clock. And shield the atomic clock with a minimum of three walls of steel and air gaps. To block out all magnetism. It will not record a different time.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
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http://www.Rockwelder.com |
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| Ghrasp |
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 13
Location: Netherlands
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| Quote: |
| Wait, do they measure the length using a ruler or a measuring tape? |
Lengths are alway being measured that way, the dimension of lightsec is just meters ; m/s x s = m.
| Quote: |
| If they can keep the ambient voltage around the atomic clock the same as it was on the ground around another atomic clock. And shield the atomic clock with a minimum of three walls of steel and air gaps. To block out all magnetism. It will not record a different time. |
You mean after return from a flight with a supersonic airplane a clock would not record a different time ? Wouldn,t that be in conflikt with relativism ? But you could be right that that way the rhytm of a clock can be influenced also and two opposing effects could annihilate each other but then that would just be a special case.
I look at it this way, the clock is part of the plane everything and everyone inside it is as being accelerated due to the energy the motor uses. The increase in directional energy means all cyclic energy/rhythms is/are increased also (everything has to stay in balance) Hence a clock as it has a memory (it registrates) shows this. People on board react the same way and thus dont notice this. Only after comparing it becomes apparent.
But I think it can just be objektively seen that time on board ran faster during the flight all things are speeded up like even the lives of people are speeded up due to the use - or abuse - of energy/oil/gas etc. Lives rythm was much slower a century ago. But did time ran slower then or faster ? Think rhytm and relativity (the idea of it, conceptual) is much better comprehensable.
So I cant see this bullshit of saying both spectators see the time of the other run faster or slower. I never see time, I,m aware of it and what I can see is a clock and both clocks can be compared. So objektively it is clear that the rhytms of both clocks in this situation are different.
But if you generelize this to statements about time and also say time is a dimension you come to another problem ; two people who shake hands before one goes for a flight in an airplane would not be able to shake hands again after return. A third person would then see one shake the hand of the other and after that the other shake the hand of the first or something weird like that. |
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