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  1. #1 Serious discussion! 
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
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    I could have placed this in Behavior and Psychology but choose to put it here because this is also a good place for it.

    Once in a while the forum receives a newbie who is apparently delusional to an extant that might be harmful. Putting aside any concept of fairness, when certain things land on the communal forum plate, it behooves us to respond in the most harm mitigative method at our disposal. The problem on my end, is that I don't know what this method should entail.

    Do we have any members or lurkers who are, from profession or otherwise, aware of a tested or standard response to delusional persons? Such that potential harm by the deluded individual to others or self might be mitigated? How do we convince a crazy person to go see the doctor?

    Of course none of this should be construed to mean we should stop kicking denialists and cranks where such activity shouldn't lead to physical harm. Denialism and psychoceramics are harmful by their propagation and require a response of at least public shaming. Mere ignorance should be forgiven and assuaged with education and occasional mild pummeling. None the less, how do we get a crazy person to go see the doctor?


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    Samurai of Logic Falconer360's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    None the less, how do we get a crazy person to go see the doctor?
    I worked at a place that handled mental health counseling when I was in AmeriCorps. All of the training's we had basically said that there wasn't any way to make a "crazy" person go to the doctor. They have to either commit a crime and be remanded by the court to seek help, go by there own. All we can do is politely suggest they seek help and offer them appropriate information. From what I have seen over the years here are that the people that have issues and want to discuss then here don't seek out help because they are either paranoid, are afraid of seeking professional help or do not have faith in professional help.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    how do we get a crazy person to go see the doctor?
    I think the question is "CAN we get a crazy person to go see the doctor?".
    I just came from your post in the thread that "inspired" this one, and to be honest, the actual level of craziness didn't show until very late in the proceedings, (the [deserved] kicking was done on someone displaying much less craziness than eventually surfaced).

    There are problems:
    1) are they really that crazy or have they just decided to troll?
    2) if they are genuine then they're going to dismiss much/ all of what's said to them because A) they're crazy 1 and B) "It's just the internet".

    All I can think is that, IF they are genuinely that far gone, then it'll show up in real life and someone closer would be better placed (and far more likely to be listened to) to "recommend" that they seek help.
    I really can't think of anything other than, as was done, a ban.

    This may seem like passing the buck to someone else (i.e. "real life people"), but it's not our job nor is there anything we could do - you'd have to be crazy to take advice on mental health from anonymous people on a forum 2 in the first place.


    1 Not a medical diagnosis.
    2 Especially one not devoted to that issue.
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  5. #4  
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360
    All of the training's we had basically said that there wasn't any way to make a "crazy" person go to the doctor.
    I suspected that this is probably the "correct" answer.
    I amend my primary question to; "How might it be possible to convince a crazy person to go to a doctor?"

    Add on edit; Crossposted with The Duck and I do concur with all statements.
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    A delusion, by definition, is an irrational belief that is held firmly despite any evidence to the contrary. It is very difficult to treat someone with delusions, what ever they happen to be. Once rational discussion of the person's ideas shows that a person is unable or unwilling to change his belief based on evidence, dismissal/banning is usually the only thing left to keep the forums from being inundated with persisting insanity. Unless the person has enough emotional maturity to accept that his belief is not considered rational by the majority of others, it is unlikely that he/she will be able to have any rational discussions on the forum. It is not the place of the forums to encourage someone to get treatment, particularly for delusions, which are rarely harmful to the patient and difficult, if not impossible, to treat. Delusions related to other conditions (depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia) have other symptoms and usually resolve with treatment of the underlying condition. However, diagnosis is not a part of these forums and is impossible to do in this context anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    A delusion, by definition, is an irrational belief that is held firmly despite any evidence to the contrary. It is very difficult to treat someone with delusions, what ever they happen to be. Once rational discussion of the person's ideas shows that a person is unable or unwilling to change his belief based on evidence, dismissal/banning is usually the only thing left to keep the forums from being inundated with persisting insanity. Unless the person has enough emotional maturity to accept that his belief is not considered rational by the majority of others, it is unlikely that he/she will be able to have any rational discussions on the forum. It is not the place of the forums to encourage someone to get treatment, particularly for delusions, which are rarely harmful to the patient and difficult, if not impossible, to treat. Delusions related to other conditions (depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia) have other symptoms and usually resolve with treatment of the underlying condition. However, diagnosis is not a part of these forums and is impossible to do in this context anyway.

    DogLady
    I enjoy kicking cranks as much as the next person. But it is impossible for me to step away from the realization that there are generally real people on the other side of the computer. I do take some comfort in the assertion that delusional people are rarely harmful to themselves. What are the statistics on "harm from delusion"?
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    We need anyone who says anything because everyone has the right to say what they want, to an extent, so that we can see just how far out they have gone.
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    If and when the Duck becomes a moderator, and if the site avoids the Sword of Damocles, I offer this advice to The Duck. (For it is not only crazy people who can hold delusions.)

    When attacking crank ideas we must be much more diligent about attacking the idea and not the person and making this very clear, from the outset, to the person.

    We must also realise that some of the crank ideas are so because the poster is very young, or very naive, or not the brightest intellect. These members deserve a gentle approach, unless it is our aim to drive them away, not only from the forum, but from science. I shall be watching you.
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    Forum Masters Degree Tranquille's Avatar
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    I think when it becomes clear that a poster has some issues, such as the one we recently encountered, then attacking even the crank ideas should take a back seat and frankly, probably denying them the ability to go on and on by either a ban and/or closing their threads or the threads in question may be in order. I say this because the crank in question was clearly exhibiting certain traits that had he or she been face to face with any one of us, we would probably have been calling an ambulance. Well I would have at any rate.

    I am curious whether this forum has any system in place which could see police called if there is a suspicion that someone may actually harm themselves or others?

    I don't know if suggesting they speak to someone will work or whether it is even helpful. When we have nothing left and it is clear that someone has some issues, then it may very well be the only thing left open to us, as concerned readers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I think when it becomes clear that a poster has some issues, such as the one we recently encountered, then attacking even the crank ideas should take a back seat and frankly, probably denying them the ability to go on and on by either a ban and/or closing their threads or the threads in question may be in order. I say this because the crank in question was clearly exhibiting certain traits that had he or she been face to face with any one of us, we would probably have been calling an ambulance. Well I would have at any rate.

    I am curious whether this forum has any system in place which could see police called if there is a suspicion that someone may actually harm themselves or others?

    I don't know if suggesting they speak to someone will work or whether it is even helpful. When we have nothing left and it is clear that someone has some issues, then it may very well be the only thing left open to us, as concerned readers.
    Could we work out where they were? It would be hard to get the police involved if you didn't know their address.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If and when the Duck becomes a moderator, and if the site avoids the Sword of Damocles, I offer this advice to The Duck. (For it is not only crazy people who can hold delusions.)

    When attacking crank ideas we must be much more diligent about attacking the idea and not the person and making this very clear, from the outset, to the person.

    We must also realise that some of the crank ideas are so because the poster is very young, or very naive, or not the brightest intellect. These members deserve a gentle approach, unless it is our aim to drive them away, not only from the forum, but from science. I shall be watching you.
    Some good advice there Dywyddyr.
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    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I think when it becomes clear that a poster has some issues, such as the one we recently encountered, then attacking even the crank ideas should take a back seat and frankly, probably denying them the ability to go on and on by either a ban and/or closing their threads or the threads in question may be in order. I say this because the crank in question was clearly exhibiting certain traits that had he or she been face to face with any one of us, we would probably have been calling an ambulance. Well I would have at any rate.

    I am curious whether this forum has any system in place which could see police called if there is a suspicion that someone may actually harm themselves or others?

    I don't know if suggesting they speak to someone will work or whether it is even helpful. When we have nothing left and it is clear that someone has some issues, then it may very well be the only thing left open to us, as concerned readers.
    The forum operates across international borders and is probably primarily bound by authority from the hosting territory. My guess is that the greatest authority within the forum itself is social contract.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    The forum operates across international borders and is probably primarily bound by authority from the hosting territory. My guess is that the greatest authority within the forum itself is social contract.
    Some of us will know others personally, then I suppose it might be possible to alert authorities if one of your friends was threatening to self harm. Beyond that I can't see it working.
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    self deletion
    Last edited by 甘肃人; October 9th, 2014 at 11:36 AM.
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    Samurai of Logic Falconer360's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    Are you physically threatening another member?...


    Am I right to assume this 'serious discussion' was inspired by Robbity's 'Tensions' thread? If so, I wish to remind again that all he did was ask if we could feel the tension. The response has been violent and rabid. Just what is going on here - in your minds?

    P.S. I now see the appropriateness of your avatar Tranquille, and the nice ironic counterpoint to you chosen username. Well done!
    Tranquille was not threatening anyone. She was commenting on the poster's rants that could have led to him causing himself harm. Imagine someone seriously talking about how they have learned to fly like superman, and considering trying on a building. That is how the poster that inspired this thread was behaving. And this thread has nothing to do with the cancerous excuse for a thread about tension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    I don't think they do; AFAIK you're the first suspect.....
    P.S. I now see the appropriateness of your avatar Tranquille, and the nice ironic counterpoint to your chosen username. Well done!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    ... Tranquille was not threatening anyone. She was commenting on the poster's rants that could have led to him causing himself harm. Imagine someone seriously talking about how they have learned to fly like superman, and considering trying on a building. That is how the poster that inspired this thread was behaving. And this thread has nothing to do with the cancerous excuse for a thread about tension.
    I had some reservations about the Rat's comprehension skills too! But to call the thread on tension a "cancerous excuse" is stretching it a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    Whoa! Whaaat!? In the business, we call this a run-on sentence. How about breaking it up into seven or eight separate ideas, and getting back to us?
    Would you like me to use smaller words?

    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    Are you physically threatening another member?
    How in the world did you manage to come to that conclusion? I've seen you jumping on the 'go off one's head bandwagon' and completely misunderstand what people are saying, but this one takes the cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    I don't think they do; AFAIK you're the first suspect.
    Of what crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人
    Am I right to assume this 'serious discussion' was inspired by Robbity's 'Tensions' thread? If so, I wish to remind again that all he did was ask if we could feel the tension. The response has been violent and rabid. Just what is going on here - in your minds?
    No, the discussion this thread is about is actually about another poster, wholly unconnected to you.

    The only rabid response in that ridiculous tension thread was from you, in your ever lasting and frankly creepy obsessive quest to attack another prominent member and slander him to kingdom come.

    So before you jump on that high horse of yours and start ranting about something you clearly do not understand or know about, sit down and be quiet. We are actually trying to discuss something that you do not understand, is not connected to you and has nothing to do with you.

    P.S. I now see the appropriateness of your avatar Tranquille, and the nice ironic counterpoint to your chosen username. Well done!
    It was my son who selected the avatar, he thought it looked funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I had some reservations about the Rat's comprehension skills too! But to call the thread on tension a "cancerous excuse" is stretching it a bit.
    That thread about tensions on the forum should be locked and thrown in trash at this point. It has devolved into a gladiatorial bloodbath of a thread. Anyways, lets not derail this thread. This thread is about determining and helping members that are at risk for self harm. So unless you have something to talk about on that subject, please do not post here.

    Anyways, I think that if a member is displaying behavior suggestive of possible self harm (or potential harm to others) that the post should be brought to a mods attention. Then they should message the individual to try and check on them. I know this is asking a lot of mods, but sometimes it helps these people. I used to mod on another forum and my job was to find x amount of target members every week and check on them if they have been inactive or acting out lately. This was on a forum for an alliance on the online nation simulation Cybernations.
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    Forum Masters Degree Tranquille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post

    Anyways, I think that if a member is displaying behavior suggestive of possible self harm (or potential harm to others) that the post should be brought to a mods attention. Then they should message the individual to try and check on them. I know this is asking a lot of mods, but sometimes it helps these people. I used to mod on another forum and my job was to find x amount of target members every week and check on them if they have been inactive or acting out lately. This was on a forum for an alliance on the online nation simulation Cybernations.
    It is asking a lot of moderators. And I think it could also place undue pressure on them as well. They aren't here to provide psychiatric care, nor should they be. While in theory it is a good idea, it isn't something that a moderator would want to take on lightly. And if something terrible did happen to that poster, then the moderators involved or in trying to check up on them could find themselves feeling guilty, for example.

    I don't really know if there is a solution to this problem.

    Banning the individuals or closing their threads could have a variety of effects on the disturbed member themselves. It could go either way. At the very least, moderators here can say they no longer have to see it and if the member is banned, then it is completely out of their hands, which may be a better option for all concerned.

    It's not easy and with certain posters, such as the individual in question, they were all over the place, so it was hard to tell if he was just trolling or if he had an issue. I do think erring on the side of caution may be better in the long run instead of pushing back to see just how bad they might be, as is often the case on forums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I had some reservations about the Rat's comprehension skills too! But to call the thread on tension a "cancerous excuse" is stretching it a bit.
    That thread about tensions on the forum should be locked and thrown in trash at this point. It has devolved into a gladiatorial bloodbath of a thread. Anyways, lets not derail this thread. This thread is about determining and helping members that are at risk for self harm. So unless you have something to talk about on that subject, please do not post here.

    Anyways, I think that if a member is displaying behavior suggestive of possible self harm (or potential harm to others) that the post should be brought to a mods attention. Then they should message the individual to try and check on them. I know this is asking a lot of mods, but sometimes it helps these people. I used to mod on another forum and my job was to find x amount of target members every week and check on them if they have been inactive or acting out lately. This was on a forum for an alliance on the online nation simulation Cybernations.
    Were you an appointed "cheerer" then? What a horribly disgusting but admirable and vital thing to do. I suppose I'd reluctantly take my turn at such if duty called. If I were visited by a "cheerer" I'd be like "Ah crap, is it that obvious?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    How might it be possible to convince a crazy person to go to a doctor?
    People go to doctors when they realize they have a problem, so someone would need to convince a crazy person to realize this. Good luck. Crazy people, almost by definition, cannot believe the problem is in themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    When attacking crank ideas we must be much more diligent about attacking the idea and not the person
    I agree, very important.

    Ultimately, the fact remains that delusional people believe what they want to believe without any evidence at all. I have witnessed this in delusional people.
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    Samurai of Logic Falconer360's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post

    Anyways, I think that if a member is displaying behavior suggestive of possible self harm (or potential harm to others) that the post should be brought to a mods attention. Then they should message the individual to try and check on them. I know this is asking a lot of mods, but sometimes it helps these people. I used to mod on another forum and my job was to find x amount of target members every week and check on them if they have been inactive or acting out lately. This was on a forum for an alliance on the online nation simulation Cybernations.
    It is asking a lot of moderators. And I think it could also place undue pressure on them as well. They aren't here to provide psychiatric care, nor should they be. While in theory it is a good idea, it isn't something that a moderator would want to take on lightly. And if something terrible did happen to that poster, then the moderators involved or in trying to check up on them could find themselves feeling guilty, for example.

    I don't really know if there is a solution to this problem.

    Banning the individuals or closing their threads could have a variety of effects on the disturbed member themselves. It could go either way. At the very least, moderators here can say they no longer have to see it and if the member is banned, then it is completely out of their hands, which may be a better option for all concerned.

    It's not easy and with certain posters, such as the individual in question, they were all over the place, so it was hard to tell if he was just trolling or if he had an issue. I do think erring on the side of caution may be better in the long run instead of pushing back to see just how bad they might be, as is often the case on forums.
    I agree that it too much to ask of the moderators. That is just the only partial solution I could think of. The sad truth is that we could have someone come on here and post about how they were going to murder someone and unless we track their IP address, there is nothing we can do. Even if we found where they were, all we could do is inform their local authorities and they would do nothing because there would really be no proof. they could claim it was someone else using their computer. I think banning and closing threads is the only viable route. At least then we can avoid blame after the fact if an incident were to occur.
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  25. #24  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Banning the individuals or closing their threads could have a variety of effects on the disturbed member themselves. It could go either way.
    It could, but, presumably someone sufficiently close to the edge for a ban to push them over would be displaying many symptoms in real life - and "real people" would have noticed.

    At the very least, moderators here can say they no longer have to see it
    While a ban could be seen as "washing our hands" of the situation it's also a tacit recognition that, frankly, there's nothing we could do: mental illness requires considerably more time, effort and expertise than is available (or practicable) on a forum such as this.
    Given the spread of views exhibited on most topics here there'd be as much chance of harm as there would help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I had some reservations about the Rat's comprehension skills too! But to call the thread on tension a "cancerous excuse" is stretching it a bit.
    That thread about tensions on the forum should be locked and thrown in trash at this point. It has devolved into a gladiatorial bloodbath of a thread. Anyways, lets not derail this thread. This thread is about determining and helping members that are at risk for self harm. So unless you have something to talk about on that subject, please do not post here.

    Anyways, I think that if a member is displaying behavior suggestive of possible self harm (or potential harm to others) that the post should be brought to a mods attention. Then they should message the individual to try and check on them. I know this is asking a lot of mods, but sometimes it helps these people. I used to mod on another forum and my job was to find x amount of target members every week and check on them if they have been inactive or acting out lately. This was on a forum for an alliance on the online nation simulation Cybernations.
    Were you an appointed "cheerer" then? What a horribly disgusting but admirable and vital thing to do. I suppose I'd reluctantly take my turn at such if duty called. If I were visited by a "cheerer" I'd be like "Ah crap, is it that obvious?"
    Not so much a cheerer, my main purpose was to try to keep people involved in the game and to keep their nations from getting deleted from inactivity. But occasionally I had to play the part of cheerer... Which was ironic because I was suffering from severe depression at that time. However, my moderator duties helped me get through the day to day struggle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    .... This thread is about determining and helping members that are at risk for self harm. So unless you have something to talk about on that subject, please do not post here. ...
    I did have something to say earlier.
    Serious discussion!
    Serious discussion!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Banning the individuals or closing their threads could have a variety of effects on the disturbed member themselves. It could go either way.
    It could, but, presumably someone sufficiently close to the edge for a ban to push them over would be displaying many symptoms in real life - and "real people" would have noticed.

    At the very least, moderators here can say they no longer have to see it
    While a ban could be seen as "washing our hands" of the situation it's also a tacit recognition that, frankly, there's nothing we could do: mental illness requires considerably more time, effort and expertise than is available (or practicable) on a forum such as this.
    Given the spread of views exhibited on most topics here there'd be as much chance of harm as there would help.
    A little bit of compassion will go along way. That is more than just telling the other person he/she needs to seek medical help.
    OK it isn't easy to suggest what to do, but to ease off a bit seemed timely to me. Was it a temporary or a permanent suspension?
    How will they be when they come back?
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    Forum Masters Degree Tranquille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post

    I agree that it too much to ask of the moderators. That is just the only partial solution I could think of. The sad truth is that we could have someone come on here and post about how they were going to murder someone and unless we track their IP address, there is nothing we can do. Even if we found where they were, all we could do is inform their local authorities and they would do nothing because there would really be no proof. they could claim it was someone else using their computer. I think banning and closing threads is the only viable route. At least then we can avoid blame after the fact if an incident were to occur.
    Indeed. It also denies them the chance to keep going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
    It could, but, presumably someone sufficiently close to the edge for a ban to push them over would be displaying many symptoms in real life - and "real people" would have noticed.
    Perhaps. But not everyone close can see it or recognise it for what it is. Sometimes so people don't want to see it or choose to see it for a variety of reasons.

    While a ban could be seen as "washing our hands" of the situation it's also a tacit recognition that, frankly, there's nothing we could do: mental illness requires considerably more time, effort and expertise than is available (or practicable) on a forum such as this.
    Given the spread of views exhibited on most topics here there'd be as much chance of harm as there would help.
    There is nothing you can do. I do think bans and closure of threads where it happens can help stop them in their tracks and perhaps with an explanation that such moderator actions happen because of what it is they are saying and how they are coming across.

    Internet forums and moderators who volunteer in them are not geared for or able to cater to diagnosing or treating mental health patients. When it becomes clear that one may very well be such a sufferer, then perhaps blocking them from continuing the cycle and the rants may be the best option you have at your disposal.

    It isn't going to be easy.
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    B.S. Bloodhound scienceofdesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille
    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人
    Am I right to assume this 'serious discussion' was inspired by Robbity's 'Tensions' thread? If so, I wish to remind again that all he did was ask if we could feel the tension. The response has been violent and rabid. Just what is going on here - in your minds?
    No, the discussion this thread is about is actually about another poster, wholly unconnected to you.

    The only rabid response in that ridiculous tension thread was from you, in your ever lasting and frankly creepy obsessive quest to attack another prominent member and slander him to kingdom come.

    So before you jump on that high horse of yours and start ranting about something you clearly do not understand or know about, sit down and be quiet. We are actually trying to discuss something that you do not understand, is not connected to you and has nothing to do with you.
    PWNED


    P.S. Since you mentioned 甘肃人 and his ironic "creepy obsession with Dywyddyr", it's telling that the rat's problem with genius duck is based upon a delusional self-serving belief that the duck is the forum's biggest troll (i.e. simply because D can be a bit grouchy some times...yeah, I'm not buying that excuse either); which speaks volumes about 甘肃人 considering the rat's OWN propensity to troll. Talk about projecting (a symptom of any major troll).

    In fact, speaking of irony, when
    甘肃人 (a.k.a "flattened mouse") was asked to tone down his trolling and actually nominate someone for moderator(since 甘肃人's "negative" vote AGAINST Dywyddr didn't count), 甘肃人 chose to nominate Robittybob1 for moderator! Talk about ironic; a newbie troll nominating someone who is, in actuality, this forum's biggest troll! Guess two birds of a feather, flock together? even if they're the troll subspecies of bird.lol..They speak each other's language (if 'trolling' could be considered a vernacular) and, in this world, you can learn a lot about someone based upon the friends they keep. Is it any surprise that 甘肃人 admires Bob?

    I also can't help but notice that 甘肃人 is pulling an "Emma" by promising to leave but never following through with her promises after being warned repeatedly by mods to cease and desist in her trolling. Like "Emma", it's always a grand trampling exit for 甘肃人, full of insults, bad jokes and passive-aggressive anger, and a promise to stay away....followed by quick return a few days later to stir the pot once again (usually taking the form of a sneaky post filled with passive-aggressive attacks and insults against Dywyddyr). And the cycle repeats itself.

    If it's not obvious by now,
    甘肃人 is a troll from an unpopular anti-science, anti-intellectual political website trying to undermine this one because of her anti-science agenda. If you look at the majority of 甘肃人's posts they fall into two categories: (a) aggressive trolling of veteran pro-science members like Dywyddyr and (b) benign, bland vanilla posts that offer very little in the way of an useful contributions to scientific discussions (this is her camouflage to cover her TRUE agenda). Outside of a token 'pseudo-science' post here and there, 甘肃人 is very careful NOT to discuss anything truly 'scientific' for fear of her true nature and behavior being exposed; since her 'real' views (like her attacks on the veterans here) are virulently anti-intellectual. However, the moment drama arises in any form that threatens to harm this forum, she joyful jumps in (her rage becoming activated like a virus) and launches her attacks ad nauseam until she is forced to take cover again, with more phony promises to stay out of the drama AND any future drama; that is, until she decides to break that promise again and jump in to stir the pot when a ripe opportunity to do so presents itself.

    My prediction
    :
    甘肃人 will pull an "Emma" again, promising to "mind her own business", followed by "a good bye" of sorts.*

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *UPDATE: This post might not make sense to some since
    甘肃人's response to all of this was to quickly delete her posts and cover up her bad behavior before too many people noticed (as if to prove my point about her). Yes, like most trolls, she is a coward. It's not a coincidence that the rat suddenly decides to pull an "Emma" and self-delete all of her own posts in this thread in an effort to cover up her trolling, without offering a single reason for her edits beyond the obvious (I think most of us can figure out the true reason for our selves). The funny part is that in-one-of-the-posts she chose to self-delete she promised to "stay away from this debate for now on" saying "good bye" once again, just as I predicted she would. Gee...I wonder why self-deleted that post? Trolls crack me up.lol..At least they are good for a laugh.
    Last edited by scienceofdesign; October 9th, 2014 at 07:58 PM. Reason: fixed broken link + update
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    A little bit of compassion will go along way.
    When someone starts spouting the level of crazy that emilto came out with "compassion" isn't going to cut it.
    What would you say? "Yep, I believe you're immortal, not actually human and can cure incurable diseases"?

    That is more than just telling the other person he/she needs to seek medical help.
    If the poster is not trolling but sincerely believes that then, as said, there's nothing we can do: it's clearly a case for someone who's actually qualified and has the time.

    OK it isn't easy to suggest what to do, but to ease off a bit seemed timely to me.
    Nope.
    By the time he/ she had got to that stage it was clearly time to wave goodbye.

    Was it a temporary or a permanent suspension?
    Barring them coming back "cured" I'd hope it was a permanent ban.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; October 9th, 2014 at 01:27 AM.
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    I'm with Dywyddyr on this.

    Unfortunately despite best intent, engaging truly delusional personalities can conflate the issue. I think it is pointless (and potentially irresponsible) on a forum such as this to attempt any remedial action. In specific instances when the mental stability of the poster is brought to the attention of the moderators, in these specific instances we need consensus from moderators upon the decision for a permanent ban from this forum. I think that temporary bans should be the domain of individual moderators whereas permanent bans should arise from moderator group consensus. Following group consensus to elevate the member to 'alert status', a simple but straight to the point message to the offending member (not by PM so it is evident to all members) should explicitly state that the post in question was deemed inappropriate to the objectives of this forum and further incidences would not be tolerated. A reported second incidence of a similar nature would result in a permanent ban.....anyway something like that.

    IMO be brief, to the point and avoid lengthy personal dialogue.
    Quidquid latine dictum, altum videtur
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    That is more than just telling the other person he/she needs to seek medical help.
    If the poster is not trolling but sincerely believes that then, as said, there's nothing we can do: it's clearly a case for someone who's actually qualified and has the time.
    How about saying "have you been to see a doctor?" Rather than "You need to see a doctor."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    I'm with Dywyddyr on this.

    Unfortunately despite best intent, engaging truly delusional personalities can conflate the issue. I think it is pointless (and potentially irresponsible) on a forum such as this to attempt any remedial action. In specific instances when the mental stability of the poster is brought to the attention of the moderators, in these specific instances we need consensus from moderators upon the decision for a permanent ban from this forum. I think that temporary bans should be the domain of individual moderators whereas permanent bans should arise from moderator group consensus. Following group consensus to elevate the member to 'alert status', a simple but straight to the point message to the offending member (not by PM so it is evident to all members) should explicitly state that the post in question was deemed inappropriate to the objectives of this forum and further incidences would not be tolerated. A reported second incidence of a similar nature would result in a permanent ban.....anyway something like that.

    IMO be brief, to the point and avoid lengthy personal dialogue.
    I think that was well thought out but from experience (of being on the outer) a PM is a nicer way to handle it. OK revert to open embarrassment on the forum if the PM has no effect.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think that was well thought out but from experience (of being on the outer) a PM is a nicer way to handle it. OK revert to open embarrassment on the forum if the PM has no effect.
    In these specific cases I think a carefully worded statement can be used without necessarily embarrassing the offendor. I personally prefer open transparency as opposed to 'redress through PM' as it demonstrates active enforcement by the moderators and provides guidelines to be observed by all members in the way they participate on this forum.
    Quidquid latine dictum, altum videtur
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  36. #35  
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    OK revert to open embarrassment on the forum if the PM has no effect.
    and what would be the next step? I'm asking as you seem to be impervious to advice, mod requests and open embarrassment and carry on posting like a prick.
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  37. #36  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think that was well thought out but from experience (of being on the outer) a PM is a nicer way to handle it. OK revert to open embarrassment on the forum if the PM has no effect.
    What you apparently missed, or ignored, or failed to parse, was this part: simple but straight to the point message to the offending member (not by PM so it is evident to all members) should explicitly state that the post in question was deemed inappropriate to the objectives of this forum and further incidences would not be tolerated.
    I.e. posting it, rather than PMing, serves as notice to anyone else reading the relevant thread why the ban occurred and also points out what is and is not acceptable on this forum.
    In other words it cuts down on the number of posts that subsequently arise asking "Why was X banned?" and also makes a clear notification that certain types of post aren't acceptable, which may reduce those types in the future from others.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  38. #37  
    Forum Freshman precious siraj's Avatar
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    such person should be helped to start a more physical / practical life. Cyber life affects , it sometimes make you happy and other times depressed. its natural. Just take break and come again. Its cure.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 甘肃人 View Post
    Excellent John. I see that I am getting through to you (i.e., someone) What you are saying here is essentially all I have meant all along regarding The Duck. I shall be watching him too! Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will watch the watchers? You and me, pal!
    No, you are not getting through to me. If you were to care to go back through several years of posts you would find a few occassions when I have admonished The Duck for aspects of his behaviour. Being of potential concern and being anathema are two different things, a distinction that appears beyond you.

    What you have been doing is engaging in an overly dramatic, self indulgent, self defeating tirade, based on precious little background information and context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille
    Whoa! Whaaat!? In the business, we call this a run-on sentence. How about breaking it up into seven or eight separate ideas, and getting back to us?
    Really? Well, in the business of proof reading, which is one of the arrows in my quiver, I go with the wikipedia definition: "A run-on is a sentence in which two or more independent clauses (i.e., complete sentences) are joined without appropriate punctuation or conjunction." Tranquille's sentence has the requisite punctuation and conjunctions.

    Stylistically it could have benefited from being broken down into a couple of smaller units, but it was perfectly intelligible. Perfect your attention span is too short to extend over its length.1.


    Now, as to the main topic of the thread.

    1.All forum members need to be sensitive to potential mental health issues of its members, especially new ones with no track record.
    2. Baiting should be avoided in these cases, including posting styles that can be misinterpreted as baiting.
    3. At the first sign of problems alert a moderator.
    4. If a mod agrees there is cause for concern lock the the thread.
    5. Then have a quorum of mods take a decision on the best course of action. Do not throw this on to one individual.


    1. I'm sorry if this comes across as passive-aggressive. I was trying to avoid passive.
    5.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think that was well thought out but from experience (of being on the outer) a PM is a nicer way to handle it. OK revert to open embarrassment on the forum if the PM has no effect.
    What you apparently missed, or ignored, or failed to parse, was this part: simple but straight to the point message to the offending member (not by PM so it is evident to all members) should explicitly state that the post in question was deemed inappropriate to the objectives of this forum and further incidences would not be tolerated.
    I.e. posting it, rather than PMing, serves as notice to anyone else reading the relevant thread why the ban occurred and also points out what is and is not acceptable on this forum.
    In other words it cuts down on the number of posts that subsequently arise asking "Why was X banned?" and also makes a clear notification that certain types of post aren't acceptable, which may reduce those types in the future from others.
    Fair enough keep the forum informed. But don't make it personal. Harold is rather clever like that; make a blanket statement.
    I like the Sciforums method of listing the reason people were banned.
    Also this forum could have done more to develop a set of rules (behaviours at least).
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 9th, 2014 at 03:44 AM.
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  41. #40  
    flattened rat 甘肃人's Avatar
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    self deletion
    Last edited by 甘肃人; October 9th, 2014 at 11:34 AM.
    And what does the Lord require of you but to love justice, to be merciful and to walk humbly with Him?
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    Moderator warning: This applies to 甘肃人 and scienceofdesign (and maybe a few others). Stop the squabbling on this forum. Stop derailing threads with off-topic squabbling. I'm running out of patience.
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  43. #42  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    How might it be possible to convince a crazy person to go to a doctor?
    People go to doctors when they realize they have a problem, so someone would need to convince a crazy person to realize this. Good luck. Crazy people, almost by definition, cannot believe the problem is in themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    When attacking crank ideas we must be much more diligent about attacking the idea and not the person
    I agree, very important.

    Ultimately, the fact remains that delusional people believe what they want to believe without any evidence at all. I have witnessed this in delusional people.
    Well said by both Sir John Galt and you, Mr. Monroe.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Way too much obsessing. The more I read, the more I realize I've adopted the right attitude regarding forum participation. Stay anonymous, mix it up and remain mysterious. Not good to constantly obsess about cranks, crazies, trolls, etc. Also not healthy to purposely seek them out like you're on a mission. Protecting the sanctity of any forum, although admirable, won't mean too much when it closes its doors forever.

    Maybe I give the forum member too much credit but I'm certain most know how to recognize personality types and who they're dealing with.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Duplicate
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    Edit: Response to Chinese Character Man deleted, because I subsequently saw Harold's request.
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    One last thing I want to point out on delusions, from a medical standpoint. A science crank's irrational beliefs are not medically significant. They are often based in youth, ignorance, or possibly mental inadequacy. The treatment of these are useless from a psychological standpoint. The ones that might have some concern are cancer cause and treatment delusions, such as the antineoplaston nonsense, which has been disproven for a long time. HIV denialism and antivaccine delusions are also concerning, however, most people holding these delusions are not interested in changing their opinions. I've spent years dealing with such people. Those who are misinformed can be helped, otherwise not much to do other than to educate as to the scientific basis for current medical practice, the risks of not vaccinating or treating appropriately, and documenting thoroughly those discussions. The more classic medical delusions (which is a fascinating field of study) aren't likely to show up on these fora.

    DogLady
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    The poster who inspired this thread, possibly(not necessarily likely) had some sort of invulnerability/spiritual power delusion. What if somebody like that thinks the truck can't hurt them, or that they can fly? I googled around with various search terms, but didn't find anything significant to even indicate that stuff like that ever happens much.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Way too much obsessing. The more I read, the more I realize I've adopted the right attitude regarding forum participation. Stay anonymous, mix it up and remain mysterious. Not good to constantly obsess about cranks, crazies, trolls, etc. Also not healthy to purposely seek them out like you're on a mission. Protecting the sanctity of any forum, although admirable, won't mean too much when it closes its doors forever.

    Maybe I give the forum member too much credit but I'm certain most know how to recognize personality types and who they're dealing with.
    I have always been myself......slightly flawed, but passionate and honest as I know how to be.

    I can be mysterious on stage. IN here, I just want to be who I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    The poster who inspired this thread, possibly(not necessarily likely) had some sort of invulnerability/spiritual power delusion. What if somebody like that thinks the truck can't hurt them, or that they can fly? I googled around with various search terms, but didn't find anything significant to even indicate that stuff like that ever happens much.
    What if he does? We're not going to know his degree of vulnerability. The nature of the forums just make it impossible to know his true mental status. The most incoherent crank on the boards doesn't exhibit signs of psychosis in his forum ramblings. There are more deaths from risk-takers doing stupid things like drinking and driving, bungee jumping, and skydiving. A manic or severely depressed person may do something stupidly harmful-the manic because of delusions of grandiosity, the depressed person due to suicidality. A psychotic person, such as a schizophrenic or a chronic amphetamine / cocaine addict, may also do so because of their psychosis. But we aren't going to know those symptoms because of the nature of the forums. Hopefully, a neighbor or family member will notice something wrong enough in their behavior to induce them to call authorities. But they have a real risk. I just don't see anything in the forum posts that appear delusional that would qualify as signs of mental illness.

    The delusions of grandiosity I see in our cranks are primarily narcissitic, not psychotic.

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