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Thread: And so we go into battle...

  1. #1 And so we go into battle... 
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    Venturing into Private Messaging with Harold14370 has not demonstrated itself to be productive.

    Admin suggested, in the chat box, that these concerns be discussed in an Open Forum, here. I agree with that, strongly, and am glad to see that Admin is open to the idea.

    I want to start this thread with a few notes:

    - I do not start this thread with any intention of attacking character or belittling anyone. I believe that defensiveness is a big part of the conflict here.
    -I do not start this thread for the purpose of promoting or questioning anyones position on the board.
    -If others see the thread as an opportunity to attack the character of others, I'll ask that you refrain. It will only turn into a flame war, which this easily can become- which would be unproductive.
    -The purpose of this thread is to have an open discussion that all can see, but not necessarily an Open Attack Thread to be exploited. I hope to ask the mods to lock this thread when it is concluded or if it is left in a position that a resolution cannot be reached.

    The instigation that led directly to this thread was the Ban of Dywyddyr.
    Dywyddyr is familiar with my fighting style and to this end, I hope Dywyddyr, during the time I speak out on this thread and when he returns from his ban understands the necessity of my addressing his posting style, even if such is not always in the best light or flattering.
    This is because the most logical recognition of what actually is seems more important than the politics of it.

    Again, I urge the mods for the creation of a Ban Log to prevent such confusion and concerns. It won't be perfect, but it's effective most of the time.

    Dywyddyr is a hammer. Similar to me, he is aggressive in vigorously attacking unscientific claims. He's headstrong and stubborn and it's not always easy to argue with him. I see this to often be an asset, not a liability.

    The Basic Question at this point appears to be: How aggressive is the vigorous and unrelenting abatement of pseudoscience?

    Scientific Study is not about the happy feel good stuff, nor is it concerned about how people feel.

    Although many may promote the idea that the best method is calm friendly teaching, I would put forth it is not the only effective method, nor is it the total standard of Science.

    The standard is to run the gauntlet. That ideas are tested, examined, tested again.

    I think the rules over on JREF word this far better than I...


    Last edited by Neverfly; February 7th, 2013 at 05:17 PM.
     

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  3. #2  
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    Here is an excerpt from the Rules I mentioned above (bold added):

    The Forum is a discussion forum and we want it to be a friendly and lively (if challenging) forum for a mature audience and therefore will endeavour to ensure that civility will be the norm, but this does not mean that Members will be insulated from all insults and certainly not from challenges; the nature of the Forum inevitably involves strong emotions and opinions which can result in heated exchanges. Having your views challenged is not considered unfriendly nor uncivil.
    Here is the crux of this issue; Science forums in general are not regarded as friendly- but usually, rather cold when it comes to the topics. While many members will engage in humor and friendly banter, in the middle of a debate it is not about being too nice but about lively debate and discussion.

    Being dishonest about what's been said or complaining about the honesty in anothers words is not civility.

    If debating an opponent, it's a fallacy to reinterpret their words and present their argument back to them in altered form. Yet, I see this going on, and challenging it is frowned upon.
    On the other hand, we have a ban where no announcement was made as to a forum policy change- rather it seemed a whim. Yet this was retro-actively justified by saying, "I'm weary of his posting style. He used mean words. He was naughty in a private message."
    Direct quote:
    Originally Posted by Harold14370:
    You can probably find other and worse examples. That doesn't matter. I have been getting more uncomfortable with the tone of discussion lately and I am going to try to change it.
    The implication here is that the forum is to change into a nicer and friendlier place. "I am going to try to change that."
    The Crime:
    Using the word "hypocrisy" and "duplicity" to accurately describe what was going on.
    The ramifications here, are clear.
    The ramifications is that Harold seeks to change the forum, to where accurate descriptions that some may feel offended by are unwelcome.

    What this leaves is that one must walk on eggshells. One must sacrifice accuracy and be politically correct.
    This is not science. Science is not about sacrificing accuracy for what feels good.
    No one has the right to go through life "unoffended."

    I see this as damaging for the board. The ramifications of such a change is clear:

    That members would be disallowed from debunking and frankly, Attacking Woo with vigor and fervor.
    That members would be admonished for being direct, blunt and honest.
    That members would be banned for disagreeing with such admonishments even if done in a Private Message.

    If it was a one time thing, I'd just think a personal factor weighed in on Harolds decision. Rather, he said, "I am going to try to change (how I believe the forum should operate.)"

    This is not a healthy route for a forum that is a Science forum- that is to promote critical thinking (NOT to call the promotion of Critical Thinking "Trolling" and attack assumed motives of a poster without evidence.) and anti-woo agendas.
    Readers and lurkers and those on google turn to resources like this to find critical arguments of blogs, claims, woos and the discussions should be permitted a certain amount of heat and rigorous debate as long as they are honestly delivered.

    Woo, delusion, dishonest tactics, and the like should not only not be tolerated, they should be attacked. They should be expected to withstand the assault of Scientific Scrutiny. Not pandered to, not allowed to 'feel good' and most certainly not to be allowed to warp the minds of those looking for answers only to find weak rebuttals and fear in truly and properly addressing woo claims.

    It is verbal sparring, not sweet and friendly chat.


     

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    I have lifted the ban. In retrospect, I admit that I acted in anger. I apologize for that.

    As far as the hammer thing is concerned, I could not disagree more strongly. Our most effective attacker of woo is probably also the most polite person on the forum. That would be Markus. He does it by knowing his stuff, having his ducks in a row, and explaining things thoroughly.

    Undoubtedly a lot of people had fun smashing the truther. I think it only made him dig in his heels that much harder. Any lurkers who were on the fence may have been swayed, but if they were it would have been by the facts presented. Not the scorn that was heaped on the truther.

    I'm surprised anyone would defend personal attacks in an internet forum. This is basic netiquette and is pretty much the standard almost everywhere.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I have lifted the ban. In retrospect, I admit that I acted in anger. I apologize for that.
    Harold, You have renewed my confidence. Thank you. It was not necessarily an issue to lift the ban, but here you have chosen to admit to being human and expressed a willingness to examine this. We may not always agree and I'm sure we won't often. But I applaud this effort and put forth that this is the type of behavior that builds confidence and trust.

    I am also personally impressed. I had convinced myself you would not say such as above. To address, make a decision and even admit to understandable fault is an ADMIN type of action. Thank you for demonstrating me as wrong to consider that possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    As far as the hammer thing is concerned, I could not disagree more strongly.
    And this puts the thread On Topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Our most effective attacker of woo is probably also the most polite person on the forum. That would be Markus. He does it by knowing his stuff, having his ducks in a row, and explaining things thoroughly.

    Undoubtedly a lot of people had fun smashing the truther. I think it only made him dig in his heels that much harder. Any lurkers who were on the fence may have been swayed, but if they were it would have been by the facts presented. Not the scorn that was heaped on the truther.

    I'm surprised anyone would defend personal attacks in an internet forum. This is basic netiquette and is pretty much the standard almost everywhere.
    And we already know that I disagree. There are many things that can make a person snap to with clarity. Many times, calm politeness does work and should be encouraged. But sometimes, harshness also works.
    I can provide and example, though it may take some digging. I was arguing vehemently on the topic of evolution- (This was many years ago, on BAUT) and someone finally got tired of it, got harsh with me and told me off.
    It got my attention, but was the impetus I needed. He said I had serious misconceptions- So, I set out to show him wrong. Only I was the one who was wrong, and I found this out when I stopped responding to the polite rebuttals and dug in my heels.

    We can never predict what it is that will make a person question everything.

    There is another reason: The lurkers and readers that use this forum as a resource to find information and Arguments against rumors they have heard or read about.
    Many people skim read and only stop at what gets their attention.
    Others may skip over posts they consider boring or has more information than they think they can assimilate.

    The best way to reach the most people is to have a Variety of responses to claims and arguments.

    And as I posted above, personal Slander should not be permitted- agreed, but where is the line as to when a person just needs to be told off sharply? It'
    s about the Rigorous attack of Woo.

    ETA: I forgot this bit- I expected a long drawn out disagreement so I had aligned and set up certain ideas in order. One of those factors was whether Dywyddyr might find some of what I say unflattering- back to that, because of oneness; He's aggressive. I had considered that an over-all aggressive tone may have contributed to the action taken, in which case - it may be plausible to suggest he tones it down and uses the aggression when needed, not always... sorry Dy, just saying (and pot meet kettle...)
    Last edited by Neverfly; February 7th, 2013 at 07:14 PM.
     

  6. #5  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I have lifted the ban.
    Thank you. Although with only about 10 hours until it expired anyway it's more of an empty gesture than anything else.

    I apologize for that.
    If that's intended for me then I accept.

    I'm surprised anyone would defend personal attacks in an internet forum. This is basic netiquette and is pretty much the standard almost everywhere.
    What about defense of, for want of a better, word "duplicity"?
    Quoting someone's post and then changing the wording for the reply?

    Are we to expect tougher moderation of all posts, or just those perceived to be personal attacks (whether they are or not)?
    IOW a clamp down and "enforcement" of intellectual honesty...
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
     

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    "enforcement" of intellectual honesty...
    Personally, I'd like to see a lot less presumption of deceit or dishonesty and a lot more asking for details and explanations.

    It's perfectly OK to say that's not logical or that's self-contradictory or here are more or better facts which make a statement wrong or incomplete - and therefore misleading. It's even OK to tell someone that's rubbish - esp if it's one of the well-known pseudo/trash topics like anti-vaccines, homeopathy, perpetual motion machines, climate myths - so long as you avoid insults against the person. If you can't resist words like 'stupid' or 'idiotic', attach it to the idea not to the person.

    Even when you're pretty sure the person is dishonest (whether they're trying to fool themselves first and us second is often a bit tricky to work out) it's worth the small effort to restrain yourself and to treat them as though they're acting in good faith but just uninformed. At least for a while.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Personally, I'd like to see a lot less presumption of deceit or dishonesty and a lot more asking for details and explanations.
    This applies to us all. I'm just as guilty as anyone else of being capable of bias, being guided by emotional reactions or even misrepresenting what another said, though I can assure you it's not my intention to misrepresent it. It can be done because I have a bias.
    It would be unfair of me to not admit this since I ask others examine their own bias.

    I've not been on my absolute best behavior... I'm sure others have not as well. I'm also sure that we can all strive for better; we might fail at times and when we do, we should accept the failures, get up and try again.

    But I argue on behalf of human error, here. That, at times, we must also allow ourselves the very humanity that appeals to readers.

    I applauded John Galt when he admitted to fault and I condemned him when I felt that he did not.
    But one point he made was that he's Human, and the Admins and mods agreed that being human is perfectly acceptable.
    Since John Galt was not a Dunbar number for me, he was much less human for me than for those who have known him for a long time and for me, that is my own fault.
    As well as his own. (Sorry, John Galt to drag your name into this but the example is very clear).
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It's perfectly OK to say that's not logical or that's self-contradictory or here are more or better facts which make a statement wrong or incomplete - and therefore misleading. It's even OK to tell someone that's rubbish - esp if it's one of the well-known pseudo/trash topics like anti-vaccines, homeopathy, perpetual motion machines, climate myths - so long as you avoid insults against the person. If you can't resist words like 'stupid' or 'idiotic', attach it to the idea not to the person.

    Even when you're pretty sure the person is dishonest (whether they're trying to fool themselves first and us second is often a bit tricky to work out) it's worth the small effort to restrain yourself and to treat them as though they're acting in good faith but just uninformed. At least for a while.
    Excellent.

    And when I demonstrate a bit of humanity- I expect the Mods will remind me to maintain the effort.

    But I must trust they are also maintaining the effort if I am to do so- I must trust that they are willing to examine themselves, even. Because every last one of us is faulty and will misunderstand, show a bias or get unreasonable, at times. No one on here is immune to it- and no one should be immune from confrontation for it.
     

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    But I argue on behalf of human error, here. That, at times, we must also allow ourselves the very humanity that appeals to readers.
    I'd really like to see more people offer the same consideration to moderators.

    We are human too. And you might have noticed, we are willing to reconsider suspensions. Anyone who wants us to reconsider action would do well to remember that we're not Olympian gods casting down lightning bolts at random unlucky souls. There's always a reason, and if you take good notice, you'll observe that we rarely impose more than a few days suspension. Permanent bans are instant for spammers, but rare for established members.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    But I argue on behalf of human error, here. That, at times, we must also allow ourselves the very humanity that appeals to readers.
    I'd really like to see more people offer the same consideration to moderators.

    We are human too. And you might have noticed, we are willing to reconsider suspensions. Anyone who wants us to reconsider action would do well to remember that we're not Olympian gods casting down lightning bolts at random unlucky souls. There's always a reason, and if you take good notice, you'll observe that we rarely impose more than a few days suspension. Permanent bans are instant for spammers, but rare for established members.
    I agree that Harold responded well. I agree that Mods/Admins are human. I agree that Harold showed a lot of humanity, in this instance.

    What I want and have wanted and have been pushing for is for Harold to really examine that- I've been a thorn in his side for a while, now.
    Yes, human- and capable of as I said I am capable of above.

    There is nothing wrong with being human. There is something wrong in refusing to acknowledge it.
     

  11. #10  
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    There is something wrong in refusing to acknowledge it.
    Doing the right thing is enough.

    And it should be enough. This forum is neither a confessional nor a therapist's couch. Nor do we conduct it like a head teacher forcing little Mary to publicly apologise to her year 2 class for messing up the art room. Tidying up after yourself is enough for adults.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
     

  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I have lifted the ban. In retrospect, I admit that I acted in anger. I apologize for that.

    As far as the hammer thing is concerned, I could not disagree more strongly. Our most effective attacker of woo is probably also the most polite person on the forum. That would be Markus. He does it by knowing his stuff, having his ducks in a row, and explaining things thoroughly.

    Undoubtedly a lot of people had fun smashing the truther. I think it only made him dig in his heels that much harder. Any lurkers who were on the fence may have been swayed, but if they were it would have been by the facts presented. Not the scorn that was heaped on the truther.

    I'm surprised anyone would defend personal attacks in an internet forum. This is basic netiquette and is pretty much the standard almost everywhere.
    You are not perfect Harold, no one is.

    A word of advice from someone who has moderated forums such as this one for a number of years.

    Never moderate or ban when you are angry about what is being discussed or how it is being discussed. Because the moment you become angry, any objectivity you might otherwise have had goes out the window. What I always do when such situations arise is to request my colleagues look over the thread and let them take over any moderation that may be required. The moment you become angry is the moment you need to step back from moderating the individual or thread in question.

    The perspective of members having a moderator use words like "trolling" for example, or "personal attacks" as another example directed at us and our manner of posting is awful. When you use such language, especially when the member is not trolling or personally attacking, you deny that member their right to defend themselves. The moment you, as a moderator, uses that language, you are posting as a person in charge and anyone who may rightly defend themselves risks being moderated and that sets a particular tone in threads and in people's behaviour and the result is threads like this one and angry and disenfranchised members. The tone then becomes combative when those members then engage you in other threads.

    I will say one thing, my posting here has taught me to be a better moderator. Having been on the receiving end of particular words from you, I now see what it is like from the other side.

    Humility is a great thing. Admitting that you were wrong is a huge first step. Knowing when to step back when you lose your objectivity is the bigger step you will have to achieve.

    All I can say is good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Doing the right thing is enough.
    See... It took a lot of stomping of feet, drawing attention to things, PM's etc before the "Right Thing." Without it- the "right thing" might not have happened at all.
    You might want to keep that in mind.

    The primary concern raised was that there was no response, no acknowledgement and no offer to "do the right thing" when confronted. Quite the contrary- it ended up escalating into a fight because these basics were not practiced. It is not an inhuman basic- teens manage to do it at McDonalds.

    So let's not undermine the fact. Tidying up became a forced thing, it was not raised as an option the moment concerns were raised. It was not raised until it escalated more than once. That's the reality.

    This thread is about the Members input on the Direction of the Forum. Is the forum to continue to attack woo ideas, conspiracy claims and the like with vigor and fervor or is the forum to change in a way to encourage all of its members to go above and beyond in "being Nice?"
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Nor do we conduct it like a head teacher forcing little Mary to publicly apologise to her year 2 class for messing up the art room.
    Supposedly anyway. In this particular case it was much like that.
    Do as you're told.
    Oh, you gave your own opinion, you're banned.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    There is something wrong in refusing to acknowledge it.
    Doing the right thing is enough.

    And it should be enough. This forum is neither a confessional nor a therapist's couch. Nor do we conduct it like a head teacher forcing little Mary to publicly apologize to her year 2 class for messing up the art room. Tidying up after yourself is enough for adults.
    Owning up to mistakes, and acknowledging them is a cultural norm and a sign of showing humility and respect to those who have been wronged when one realizes they are at fault. It isn't far fetched to expect that people here do apologize when the mistake is so extreme. Sure the apology could have been in a pm to Dywyddyr except that the entire forum suffered and so the entire forum deserved an apology. I sent an apology to you when I first joined and had a knee-jerk reaction to what amounted to my own misinterpretation of your motives. You did not ask for the apology and maybe, given your nature, would have been satisfied with the attitude I had just being dropped. I often don't put much stock in apologies because unless the person actually shows regret in the form of changed attitude the apology is just empty words. but I do recognize the significance of admitting to being wrong. Sometimes admitting it to others is a step in learning how to admit it to ones self.

    So anyway, I apologized to you, not because you demanded it but because it WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. It was the honorable thing to do. And since then, I think you and I have had better exchanges, even when we disagree, though I may have gotten close to forgetting who I was talking to recently. But I did manage to remind myself of how I misjudged you before and how I am capable of doing it again. So I stepped back and re-evaluated the thread. Things got better.

    In any case, harold14370 DID apologize for banning Dywyddyr. We surely aren't going to complain that he apologized for doing something he shouldn't have. I will reserve judgement until I see evidence that it is surely sincere. But that does not mean that I feel the apology is unwarranted or improper. There is a reason headteachers make kids apologize. Because it pacifies a situation and gives some closure so that people can move on. Unfortunately, as scientific as we can be on here, we are not robots, we suffer from our emotions and sometimes we have to trick them into going away.

    Now then, Neverfly, log out so you can take me to karaoke or I will go after you like I did Admin and Harold.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    But that does not mean that I feel the apology is unwarranted or improper.
    Point- again- that it wouldn't have happened at all except for a whole lot of pushing for it. Tidying up counts when you acknowledge being human the first time around, not the third time around after someone had to raise a lot of hell...
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Now then, Neverfly, log out so you can take me to karaoke or I will go after you like I did Admin and Harold.
    But... but someone is wrong on the internet!
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    is the forum to change in a way to encourage all of its members to go above and beyond in "being Nice?"
    I'm not very nice so I hope not. The important thing is for people to keep track of what "expressing an opinion" means. If it means expressing yourself rudely, or by insulting or obscene language, then you detract from the value - for the discussion - your statement might otherwise have had.

    My own online life away from here is in the no-holds-barred worlds of climate change and some feminist forums. I really don't like to see any tendency to the constant (very) personal attacks and prolonged foot-stamping tantrums of the Did not! Did too! variety that are far too common elsewhere. We manage pretty well, with occasional mis-steps. We shouldn't allow such mis-steps to be buried under further acrimony - their value as lessons to be learned will be overwhelmed by more insults and resentments being fostered and festering rather than calmed and settled.

    Might say more but I've had to wipe out 2 attempts - on the TL; DR basis.
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    Well put, again.
     

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    Neverfly, I think it's good to air your concerns. I tend to advocate a looser moderation style; in most cases I think the participants can tell passion from poison and can deal with most of what comes along. It's easy for warnings of moderation to raise the heat level and it's trickiest when the moderator is a participant as well. When they are an active participant perhaps they should refer their concerns to other moderators rather than act unilaterally?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    The Basic Question at this point appears to be: How aggressive is the vigorous and unrelenting abatement of pseudoscience?

    Scientific Study is not about the happy feel good stuff, nor is it concerned about how people feel.
    1, yes science is....but you are not talking to science, you are talking to ppl..

    why should you care?

    how about:

    I do not start this thread with any intention of attacking character or belittling anyone. I believe that defensiveness is a big part of the conflict here.
    -I do not start this thread for the purpose of promoting or questioning anyones position on the board.
    There are many things that can make a person snap to with clarity. Many times, calm politeness does work and should be encouraged.
    I'm just as guilty as anyone else of being capable of bias, being guided by emotional reactions or even misrepresenting what another said, though I can assure you it's not my intention to misrepresent it.
    There is nothing wrong with being human. There is something wrong in refusing to acknowledge it.
    again you are not holding a conversation with science..you would be lucky to be holding a conversation with a scientist..(no offense to the actual scientists on this board)
    you are dealing with ppl with the same issues as you.


    just because:
    got harsh with me and told me off.
    It got my attention, but was the impetus I needed.
    worked for you once (is that what it takes to make you learn ALL the time?)
    doesn't mean it is gonna work for everyone else.

    if your intention is to :

    The purpose of this thread is to have an open discussion that all can see
    I would put forth it is not the only effective method, nor is it the total standard of Science.

    The standard is to run the gauntlet. That ideas are tested, examined, tested again.
    you know..i was gonna quote mine you for intention inferences but most of what i find is just your intention to make it so you can be harsh and rude with impunity..

    I find it hard to believe that you think this is an effective way to interact with your fellow humans.
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    But we are talking ABOUT science. Ideas, concepts, theories etc.
    These are the subject of discussion and should not, ever, be taken as somehow (inextricably) intertwined with anyone's own person.
    Maybe it's my engineering background or maybe I'm "semi-autistic" but (misrepresentation aside, you know, duplicity &c 1) the person, as a person, doesn't come into it (for me).

    1 And that's generally only as far as the way they present their argument.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; February 8th, 2013 at 03:16 AM.
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  22. #21  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    The Basic Question at this point appears to be: How aggressive is the vigorous and unrelenting abatement of pseudoscience?

    Scientific Study is not about the happy feel good stuff, nor is it concerned about how people feel.
    1, yes science is....but you are not talking to science, you are talking to ppl..

    why should you care?

    how about:

    I do not start this thread with any intention of attacking character or belittling anyone. I believe that defensiveness is a big part of the conflict here.
    -I do not start this thread for the purpose of promoting or questioning anyones position on the board.
    There are many things that can make a person snap to with clarity. Many times, calm politeness does work and should be encouraged.
    I'm just as guilty as anyone else of being capable of bias, being guided by emotional reactions or even misrepresenting what another said, though I can assure you it's not my intention to misrepresent it.
    There is nothing wrong with being human. There is something wrong in refusing to acknowledge it.
    again you are not holding a conversation with science..you would be lucky to be holding a conversation with a scientist..(no offense to the actual scientists on this board)
    you are dealing with ppl with the same issues as you.


    just because:
    got harsh with me and told me off.
    It got my attention, but was the impetus I needed.
    worked for you once (is that what it takes to make you learn ALL the time?)
    doesn't mean it is gonna work for everyone else.

    if your intention is to :

    The purpose of this thread is to have an open discussion that all can see
    I would put forth it is not the only effective method, nor is it the total standard of Science.

    The standard is to run the gauntlet. That ideas are tested, examined, tested again.
    you know..i was gonna quote mine you for intention inferences but most of what i find is just your intention to make it so you can be harsh and rude with impunity..

    I find it hard to believe that you think this is an effective way to interact with your fellow humans.
    I find it ironic that you complain about the same behavior you partake in. You are bullying as much as you claim to be being bullied. Look, if you don't like the way someone posts. use the ignore button and learn to use the self restraint not to click view post. You are a grown man and no one is forcing you to read post of mean old bullies. Why don't you go post on that other forum where you are guaranteed no one will be mean to you? Though your little obsession with Neverfly and maybe even me, is very flattering.

    I am starting to think your initial ban may have actually been earned and here we assumed it was a mistake.

    Don't project your issues onto everyone else. Your issues is that you have thin skin. Do not assume everyone on the forum does. Most people don't. Most, even the cranks, can handle more than you can. You get your feelings hurt anytime Neverfly or I, but mostly Neverfly, corrects anyone in any thread. Are you just starving for NF's attention. Sheesh, you stalk him and nag him more than I do.

    It's pretty pathetic that you follow him around complaining about all he does, when he is one of a few that went to bat for you. He has defended you in many situations. He even went on about how you were different and not like fundies who preach. And now you are making him look like a liar.



    Follow your own advice and STFU.

    Because as I see it, this situation is nearly settled and you wanna come back in and rekindle the flames.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    1, yes science is....but you are not talking to science, you are talking to ppl...
    True, and discussing science which has rigorous demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    why should you care?
    Because I do care. Just because I don't express myself in the manner you believe I always should does not mean I do not care. If I did not care, I would not persist.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    you are dealing with ppl with the same issues as you.
    As are the mods and admins.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    worked for you once (is that what it takes to make you learn ALL the time?)
    doesn't mean it is gonna work for everyone else.
    You're missing the point. Entirely.
    What I had pointed out was that after other efforts were exhausted, I got bluntness. I also pointed out that it is the variety that is a benefit. Look, if everyone acted the same, talked the same, answered the same- Who would listen? What I am advocating was a moderate set of boundaries, where it's frankly, "ok" to get a little harsh and ragged sometimes and it's encouraged to be patient and present evidence and the best arguments we can make the rest of the time. I truly believe that most of the Mods here and Admins are agreeable to that- however, Harolds words made me question if there was a New Standard to be applied.

    Only Harold can address that now- But it's possible that I misunderstood the frustration he had expressed in that post as an intent to change or fix the forum. It sounded that way, but he may have meant something more subtle. This thread was to discuss from many points of view how the members feel about that issue. I expect some members will advocate stricter controls. Others loose controls.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    you know..i was gonna quote mine you for intention inferences but most of what i find is just your intention to make it so you can be harsh and rude with impunity..
    Well.. if you want to quote mine; why not quote this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    And when I demonstrate a bit of humanity- I expect the Mods will remind me to maintain the effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Because every last one of us is faulty and will misunderstand, show a bias or get unreasonable, at times. No one on here is immune to it- and no one should be immune from confrontation for it.
    No, I do not want to be harsh and rude with impunity. But I want the Freedom to be allowed to, at times, be human when particularly aggressive and stubborn posters need a reality check.
    I also believe that this is what many Mods and Admins want, as well. Expression with moderation; not impunity.
    Impunity is exactly what I stood against.
    And Harolds suggestion at Changing the Forum made me ask these questions in this thread- if the changes would involve walking on eggshells because the reason for Dywyddyr's ban implied that.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    I find it hard to believe that you think this is an effective way to interact with your fellow humans.
    Well... you made it up... now you have trouble believing it? Maybe you shouldn't invent what my statements said anymore and 'hey presto! Problem solved.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    Neverfly, I think it's good to air your concerns. I tend to advocate a looser moderation style; in most cases I think the participants can tell passion from poison and can deal with most of what comes along. It's easy for warnings of moderation to raise the heat level and it's trickiest when the moderator is a participant as well. When they are an active participant perhaps they should refer their concerns to other moderators rather than act unilaterally?
    In absolute fairness, I could have been banned flat out and would have been by less objective parties. As it is, I've probably dug myself a pretty deep hole as it is.
    I agree about the point that if they are going to say they are members sometimes and mods or admins other times, they should rely on other admins/mods to intervene on their behalf. When I joined... I was under the impression that this happens.
    It may appear that it does happen often- but is not 100%.
     

  24. #23  
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    As far as the hammer thing is concerned, I could not disagree more strongly. Our most effective attacker of woo is probably also the most polite person on the forum. That would be Markus. He does it by knowing his stuff, having his ducks in a row, and explaining things thoroughly.
    Ha, ha, thank you
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Ha, ha, thank you
    After I get granted impunity to insult at will- I'm coming for you.
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    As a general rule just "Don't be a dick" when debating with creationists, flat earthists, truthers, gold bugs or the like. You are not going to change their mind on an internet forum for starters.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    I find it ironic that you complain about the same behavior you partake in. You are bullying as much as you claim to be being bullied. Look, if you don't like the way someone posts. use the ignore button and learn to use the self restraint not to click view post. You are a grown man and no one is forcing you to read post of mean old bullies. Why don't you go post on that other forum where you are guaranteed no one will be mean to you? Though your little obsession with Neverfly and maybe even me, is very flattering.

    I am starting to think your initial ban may have actually been earned and here we assumed it was a mistake.

    Don't project your issues onto everyone else. Your issues is that you have thin skin. Do not assume everyone on the forum does. Most people don't. Most, even the cranks, can handle more than you can. You get your feelings hurt anytime Neverfly or I, but mostly Neverfly, corrects anyone in any thread. Are you just starving for NF's attention. Sheesh, you stalk him and nag him more than I do.

    It's pretty pathetic that you follow him around complaining about all he does, when he is one of a few that went to bat for you. He has defended you in many situations. He even went on about how you were different and not like fundies who preach. And now you are making him look like a liar.



    Follow your own advice and STFU.

    Because as I see it, this situation is nearly settled and you wanna come back in and rekindle the flames.


    Wow..

    That's pretty harsh and nasty, don't you think?

    Take a chill pill or something.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat View Post
    As a general rule just "Don't be a dick" when debating with creationists, flat earthists, truthers, gold bugs or the like. You are not going to change their mind on an internet forum for starters.
    It's not about changing their minds as much as making damn sure no one lurking or participating on the fence sees those ideas as legitimate science. Most times the proponents of those ideas don't survive long around here because they tend to be anti-reason and anti-science.

    --
    The tread title though is wrong headed. Seeing forum discussions as battle sets the wrong tone for the forum, particularly in a science forum where objective fact and reason without shrill appeals to emotion should be at the center of arguments.
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  29. #28  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    I find it ironic that you complain about the same behavior you partake in. You are bullying as much as you claim to be being bullied. Look, if you don't like the way someone posts. use the ignore button and learn to use the self restraint not to click view post. You are a grown man and no one is forcing you to read post of mean old bullies. Why don't you go post on that other forum where you are guaranteed no one will be mean to you? Though your little obsession with Neverfly and maybe even me, is very flattering.

    I am starting to think your initial ban may have actually been earned and here we assumed it was a mistake.

    Don't project your issues onto everyone else. Your issues is that you have thin skin. Do not assume everyone on the forum does. Most people don't. Most, even the cranks, can handle more than you can. You get your feelings hurt anytime Neverfly or I, but mostly Neverfly, corrects anyone in any thread. Are you just starving for NF's attention. Sheesh, you stalk him and nag him more than I do.

    It's pretty pathetic that you follow him around complaining about all he does, when he is one of a few that went to bat for you. He has defended you in many situations. He even went on about how you were different and not like fundies who preach. And now you are making him look like a liar.



    Follow your own advice and STFU.

    Because as I see it, this situation is nearly settled and you wanna come back in and rekindle the flames.


    Wow..

    That's pretty harsh and nasty, don't you think?

    Take a chill pill or something.
    I know. And I do often. But you are probably unaware of the back story here. This squirrel was a friend of ours on another forum. We were supportive of him and when he created his own forum we were supportive and sent out invites to plenty of people. We were some of the first to join it. but its as dead as door nails. We can't sit around talking to our selves, right? Well my husband, Neverfly and I got banned from that forum (not the one started by NMSquirrel), the bans which were protested by other members just not as passionately as we did for Dywyddyr. But the bans were not justified unless you want a feel good forum where everyone avoids hurting each others feelings no matter what. We have established I think, that most members here do not want that.

    Well Squirrel must have gotten lonely over there after we got banned because many of our mutual friends stopped participating very much over there and came here after they invited us here. Well squirrel must have assumed that because we respected him that it meant we would never publicly challenge anything he posted and that somehow it meant we would do as he told us to. Well a while back, not long after squirrel joined here (after NF vouched for him that he doesn't have the sort of personality that normally earns a ban,( because for some reason squirrel had been a member here already and was permabanned. We don't know why) ) Neverfly disagreed with him in a thread. And ever since then Squirrel has been whining around following NF and myself around calling us bullies. He has created threads whining about us and even created the thread called "mods ...STFU" So it wasn't as harsh as it seems considering he told everyone to stfu. I was simply reminding him of his own words to the forum.
    Oh and his main issue with me I think is he displayed a lack of concern for a pet cat he pictured that had his nose ripped off by something and we urged him to take to the pet. Then he called us too emotional and has been on a vindictive rant ever since.

    A list of his whining threads:

    mods-stfu

    Emotional Culpibility This one he admits to being on a rant about NF or maybe me, not sure. Honestly I have been harsher with him than NF is. I don't see disabilities as an excuse to treat others badly. Neverfly really is the nice one.

    The Poor Kitty

    He wants a forum where everyone is nice because he posts stuff that makes no sense. He doesn't have the ability to accept and learn from criticism and so he doesnt want his mistakes pointed out to him. He wants us to cater to his delusion of being right. No one is obligated to do that. His weak self esteem is not our responsibility. If he can't handle criticism, he should either avoid posting in the forum at all. Or simply avoid posting stuff as if it is fact when it is clearly his opinion and not supported by evidence. And allow others to disagree with him. The insults are rarely an instant response. They come when someone refuses to acknowledge their mistakes. And it isn't just NF and myself that get short with people. but he seems to be acting as if it is.

    So thats the backstory on that. feel free to review the threads I presented as evidence to his attitude. And then you still think I was harsh and nasty, well I still agree that I was, but I think he deserves it and you are free to disagree with that.

    Oh and for the record. I am more harsh when I take my meds (aka chill pills) than when I don't. Because its my meds that make my emotions go dead, emotions such as empathy, which I have little of to start with.

    Edit: put the edit in color to make it obvious since i have already been quoted on this. But I left out information that made it seem as if we were banned from squirrel's forum, I wanted to point out that we weren't. however I have recently deleted my own account there because he is the type of mod who deletes your posts without notification or explanation. He recently deleted a lot of my posts from his forum so I finished the job for him and deleted my account. I don't know why he deleted my posts considering it was my thread that brought the first noticeable traffic. I can only assume he deleted it because he was mad at me or neverfly for disagreeing with him here. He probably deleted a lot of nf's posts too but I don't have access to his account to check and didn't think to ask nf.
    Last edited by seagypsy; February 8th, 2013 at 01:59 PM.
     

  30. #29  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post



    Wow..

    That's pretty harsh and nasty, don't you think?

    Take a chill pill or something.
    its just a self distraction to avoid dealing with any personal responsibility to accept that they are causing problems by their harshness..
    and more so the other than her..i expect a certain amount of emotional irresponsibility from women..men however are a different issue..they(we) are not supposed to be emotional..(yea right)(dont go off..i know this statement is frought with holes..)
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
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  31. #30  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    dunno why my post posted twice. this was supposed to be a reply to something different and instead it reposted my previous post... wtf happened there?
     

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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post



    Wow..

    That's pretty harsh and nasty, don't you think?

    Take a chill pill or something.
    its just a self distraction to avoid dealing with any personal responsibility to accept that they are causing problems by their harshness..
    and more so the other than her..i expect a certain amount of emotional irresponsibility from women..men however are a different issue..they(we) are not supposed to be emotional..(yea right)(dont go off..i know this statement is frought with holes..)
    omg you did not just go there did you? really? gonna hold women to a different standard because... what... because women are emotionally irresponsible? Wow, what a sexist. so you think men are supposed to be unemotional. ok, so based on the laws of gender according to you, be a man and stop whining about getting your poor little feelings hurt then. You should tough and burly and able to handle man talk. Men are not emotional. They don't go on rants complaining about how someone is mean to them. And women are handicapped by their vaginas and therefore incapable of emotional responsibility. Wow. Way to go squirrel. That's showing your real nuts right there.


    Tranquille, see what I mean?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    i expect a certain amount of emotional irresponsibility from women.



    Come off it. Some women are nearly as good as real people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The tread title though is wrong headed. Seeing forum discussions as battle sets the wrong tone for the forum, particularly in a science forum where objective fact and reason without shrill appeals to emotion should be at the center of arguments.
    The title referred to something else, however, Harold responded to and sought to resolve that issue making the title redundant.

    If the mods prefer, the title can be changed to "Direction of the Forum" or "Should general behavior be nice?" or whatever seems appropriate ("Neverfly is a big fat jerk" is not appropriate...)

    Seagypsy, you're doing what Squirrel wants. He's lighting fuses hoping to get the thread locked.
     

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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    True, Nevefly, your emotional responsibility vs my hereditary lack of it has you more clearly visioned.

    Perhaps you can request the mods split Squirrels rant into its own thread as they did for him on the poor kitty issue.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    True, Nevefly, your emotional responsibility vs my hereditary lack of it has you more clearly visioned.

    Perhaps you can request the mods split Squirrels rant into its own thread as they did for him on the poor kitty issue.
    I don't know; already made the point about the title in response to Lynx... I've gone into 'Diplomatic mode' where I was in 'pound fist on table mode' before. There's been an odd reversal here where usually you're the one telling me to calm down.
    We're sitting here talking about normal things face to face but only talking forum stuff here (And yes, I know it makes a record of it and it's for clarity) but the whole things got me weirded out.
    Because I vouched for Squirrel.
    It used to be the Squirrel was the one that was calm and he talked my temper down with logic. He was reliable.

    What happened?

    I may not shun a fight, always- but I didn't want a fight. I wanted the concerns recognized and addressed- not swept under the rug.

    There's a lot of talk about how tough a job being a Moderator is. And I believe it. It's added stress without pay- You know, I get that.
    But there's perks, too.
    Such as a Moderator usually has their mistakes or disagreements dealt with privately and out of public view. A member is publicly chastised and maybe suspended or banned.
    In this thread it's been asked whether or not the Mods can "be human" too. Which is it? I see that as a perk for Mods where any questionable actions on their part is discussed in the backroom. That they are not suspended or banned but a member is.
    Even so, I may be going by history where I've seen such a blatant and clear bias such as this on other forums but it does seem as though the Mods here put in far more effort and less likely to be corrupt than SciForums--- This doesn't mean anyone should allow any hint of it to slide, because, over time, it can progress and get worse.

    From the beginning, all I had wanted was a proper and professional response. One that addressed the concerns and acknowledged the necessity of not over-protecting the Mods own human mistakes. It's a problem in any management situation-- it is just too easy to get into that mode.
    Own up to mistakes. Defend valid reasons. Whichever- but Handle It.

    It's not just me here, a lot of people handled this poorly for a long while before Harold Stepped up to bat and Handled one primary complaint. He chose a method of handling it. He could have chosen several different ways- but he chose the most difficult one; the one to say he was sorry for making an error in judgment.

    Now we've got the various reactions people have to eachother still sorting itself out after the Fray. I'd rather not split it off - I'd rather that Squirrel took a minute to settle down and really take some time to think about his own decisions. I think my change in demeanor demonstrates I've been thinking pretty hard about my own.
    But he's decided I am the enemy- he's gotten the idea in his head that frankly, I did not place there- he did- that I'm out to get him. And I cannot take out what I did not put in.
    I'd say leave it for the record. Just like you and I keeping forum issues on the forum so that others can see it.

    NMSquirrel, I vouched for you at one time because you had shown yourself as rational and balanced for discussion in the past. Try to show that now. I am not your enemy, I am not out to get you. I do not regret fighting for what I believe is best; But I think it's a shame that fighting makes enemies. You have the ability and the expectation to step up and resolve issues just as the Mods do. Step up above the moment of anger and try- same way you used to encourage me to do.
     

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    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
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    finally..a decent communication to respond to..

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I know. And I do often. But you are probably unaware of the backstory here. This squirrel was a friend of ours on another forum. We were supportive of him and when he created his own forum we were supportive and sent out invites to plenty of people. We were some of the first to join it. but its as dead as door nails. We can't sit around talking to our selves, right? Well my husband, Neverfly and I got banned from that forum, the bans which were protested by other members just not as passionately as we did for Dywyddyr. But the bans were not justified unless you want a feel good forum where everyone avoids hurting each other's feeligns no matter what. We have established I think, that most members here do not want that.
    you got banned from sciforums not Squirrels Nest..(just clarifiing)

    Well squirrel must have assumed that because we respected him that it meant we would never publicly challenge anything he posted and that somehow it meant we would do as he told us to. Well a while back, not long after squirrel joined here (after NF vouched for him that he doesn't have the sort ofpersonality that normally earns a ban,( because for some reason squirrel had been a member here already and was permabanned. We don't know why)
    still think it was a spam ban i got caught up in..



    Neverfly disagreed with him in a thread.
    so its a specific incident that you think is causing the tension?
    at the risk of starting it again..which thread/post?


    And ever since then Squirrel has been whining around following NF and myself around calling us bullies.
    im not gonna argue against my wining..i do..its a form of communication...
    and for the record its mostly neverfly i am calling a bully..not you..(i apologize if you got caught in the crossfire..)


    He has created threads whining about us and even created the thread called "mods ...STFU" So it wasn't as harsh as it seems considering he told everyone to stfu.
    and this is the reason for most of my ranting..no matter how many times i explain 'this is not what i said/meant' they/he keeps insisting that i did..IE you say i told everyone to 'STFU' but this is your own deviation of that thread..an attempt to ad homen me..(pry totally wrong usage)..
    i never told everyone to STFU i was asking for ppl to acknowlege a need , and accept a moderators 'STFU'..
    this is what ticks me off more than anything..no matter how many different ways i try to explain a difficult concept, you guys keep insisting i mean something else, usually you guys flavor that insistance with a negative attack on my character..

    and dont argue 'we havent attacked your character'..you have and everytime i try to explain this you guys get all defensive and do not listen..you refuse to accept my reasoning for the things i do and substitute your own reasoning. you keep trying to TELL me that i am doing X for Y reason..irregardless of what reasons i give.
    the fact that you go on in this post and say stuff like 'he is just doing it because..' tells me you do not care about learning anything but are here just to justify your own opinions, and even force them on others (see neverflys arguments for being aggressive,harsh and rude..)


    Oh and his main issue with me I think is he displayed a lack of concern for a pet cat he pictured that had his nose ripped off by something and we urged him to take to the pet.
    that sent me over the edge because it just proved to me, that you guys totally do not get what i am trying to teach you.
    (be responsible for your own emotional state of being)(that doesnt mean you cant get emotional..it just means admiting that you are being emotional)
    after all the conversations we have had regarding our feelings of 'worthlessness' and the distarctibility of being 'harsh and rude'..etc etc..

    AND
    the fact that i started that thread with encouraging christa to take more pictures..and you two had totally ignored that and decided to try and destroy that thread with your emotional rant about the kitty with ABSOLUTELY NO consideration to christa and the intent of the thread.
    this was the final slap in the face that told me neverfly has absolutely NO respect for anyone but his own opinions.

    AND
    FYI..it was a mistake for me to post that pic..thanks to the mods they cleaned that thread out and moved the kitty talk to another thread..and i had them delete the pic as apperantly it was an offending pic..

    Then he called us too emotional and has been on a vindictive rant ever since.
    not vindictive..
    and you two still refuse to accept that you were emotional in that thread and i am still irked about it because i have not seen ANY desire to 'make things right' by apologizing for the kitty rant. much less take responsibility for your own emotional state of being..

    A list of his whining threads:
    mods-stfu
    Emotional Culpibility This one he admits to being on a rant about NF or maybe me, not sure. Honestly I have been harsher with him than NF is. I don't see disabilities as an excuse to treat others badly. Neverfly really is the nice one.
    The Poor Kitty
    actually the kitty thread was you two wining about me not being able to take my kitty to the doc.
    but the the other two..yes..me wining..


    He wants a forum where everyone is nice
    no..i want a forum where others treat me with respect. being harsh and rude to me will be met with equal harshness and rudeness..this is where you guys are at..i get harsh and rude with you and you start wining and disrespecting me because i am harsh and rude to you...and you guys are so focused on defending yourself that you do not even see that you two are getting defensive about the same things that i am telling you to quit doing to others..
    (you can dish it out, but you can't take it..)

    because he posts stuff that makes no sense.
    1. everbody does to one degree or another
    2, because you refuse to understand..you guys are more interested in forcing your own ideals as to what this is supposed to be about,than to entertain a thought that disagrees with your own..
    3, i have never claimed to be an expert on anything and have often communicated 'this is just my opinion' or 'i think' or 'i believe' or 'i feel' but you guys keep translating those disclaimers to me thinking i am an 'expert' IRREGARDLESS of how many times i have disclaimed any authority..
    4, still do not consider a persons lack of ability to communicate difficult concepts, and expect them to be an expert in communicating their own thoughts.
    5, is just an excuse to be dumb. and refuse to understand what i am trying to communicate.


    He doesn't have the ability to accept and learn from criticism and so he doesnt want his mistakes pointed out to him.
    this is what i am talking about..you still dont get it..
    if you want to teach someone to learn from critisism..then you cant be harsh about it.
    AND
    i can say the same arguement for you two..(err..i wanna keep this mostly on him, and not you..see previous post as to why)


    No one is obligated to do that. His weak self esteem is not our responsibility. If he can't handle criticism, he should either avoid posting in the forum at all. Or simply avoid posting stuff as if it is fact when it is clearly his opinion and not supported by evidence. And allow others to disagree with him.
    you say that, and it only reinforces my opinion about how you guys refuse to understand and are more interested in your own opinions.
    it is easier for you to take shots at my 'character' than to accept that maybe there is some truth to what i say..
    and i can handle critisism..but not at the end of a sword..you cannot FORCE me to accept your critisism..(WTH have i been trying to teach you..in order for your critisism to be accepted, you cannot be harsh and rude..
    (he talks of the benefits of his 'harshness' to the lurkers, without no consideration to whether the lurkers want to be 'attacked' like that..why would i want to sign iup for a membership, if all i have to look forward to is someone telling my beliefs are BS and wrong?)


    The insults are rarely an instant response.
    lately they have been..i post and you two jump down my throat.
    (again more him than you)

    They come when someone refuses to acknowledge their mistakes. And it isn't just NF and myself that get short with people. but he seems to be acting as if it is.
    exactly.
    you two refuse to acknowledge your mistakes with me..which is where i am at with you two..frustrated with you two with not being able to treat me with ANY kind of respect and acknowleging your mistakes with me.

    So thats the backstory on that. feel free to review the threads I presented as evidence to his attitude. And then you still think I was harsh and nasty, well I still agree that I was, but I think he deserves it and you are free to disagree with that.
    yes please..i am desperate to get someone elses opinion in this matter between me and NF (and by extension seagypsy)
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  38. #37  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    True, Nevefly, your emotional responsibility vs my hereditary lack of it has you more clearly visioned.

    Perhaps you can request the mods split Squirrels rant into its own thread as they did for him on the poor kitty issue.
    I don't know; already made the point about the title in response to Lynx... I've gone into 'Diplomatic mode' where I was in 'pound fist on table mode' before. There's been an odd reversal here where usually you're the one telling me to calm down.
    We're sitting here talking about normal things face to face but only talking forum stuff here (And yes, I know it makes a record of it and it's for clarity) but the whole things got me weirded out.
    Because I vouched for Squirrel.
    It used to be the Squirrel was the one that was calm and he talked my temper down with logic. He was reliable.

    What happened?

    I may not shun a fight, always- but I didn't want a fight. I wanted the concerns recognized and addressed- not swept under the rug.

    There's a lot of talk about how tough a job being a Moderator is. And I believe it. It's added stress without pay- You know, I get that.
    But there's perks, too.
    Such as a Moderator usually has their mistakes or disagreements dealt with privately and out of public view. A member is publicly chastised and maybe suspended or banned.
    In this thread it's been asked whether or not the Mods can "be human" too. Which is it? I see that as a perk for Mods where any questionable actions on their part is discussed in the backroom. That they are not suspended or banned but a member is.
    Even so, I may be going by history where I've seen such a blatant and clear bias such as this on other forums but it does seem as though the Mods here put in far more effort and less likely to be corrupt than SciForums--- This doesn't mean anyone should allow any hint of it to slide, because, over time, it can progress and get worse.

    From the beginning, all I had wanted was a proper and professional response. One that addressed the concerns and acknowledged the necessity of not over-protecting the Mods own human mistakes. It's a problem in any management situation-- it is just too easy to get into that mode.
    Own up to mistakes. Defend valid reasons. Whichever- but Handle It.

    It's not just me here, a lot of people handled this poorly for a long while before Harold Stepped up to bat and Handled one primary complaint. He chose a method of handling it. He could have chosen several different ways- but he chose the most difficult one; the one to say he was sorry for making an error in judgment.

    Now we've got the various reactions people have to eachother still sorting itself out after the Fray. I'd rather not split it off - I'd rather that Squirrel took a minute to settle down and really take some time to think about his own decisions. I think my change in demeanor demonstrates I've been thinking pretty hard about my own.
    But he's decided I am the enemy- he's gotten the idea in his head that frankly, I did not place there- he did- that I'm out to get him. And I cannot take out what I did not put in.
    I'd say leave it for the record. Just like you and I keeping forum issues on the forum so that others can see it.

    NMSquirrel, I vouched for you at one time because you had shown yourself as rational and balanced for discussion in the past. Try to show that now. I am not your enemy, I am not out to get you. I do not regret fighting for what I believe is best; But I think it's a shame that fighting makes enemies. You have the ability and the expectation to step up and resolve issues just as the Mods do. Step up above the moment of anger and try- same way you used to encourage me to do.
    Good point, from here on out I will simply report his antagonistic posts towards anyone and not respond to him. He isn't worthy of the attention, imo.
     

  39. #38  
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    NMSquirrel. Stop treating and responding to S.G. or myself as though we are the same person. We are two different people and granted, we have certain similarities. But we do not see eye to eye on everything. We do not agree on everything. We are not one person and you need to stop addressing what one of us said and attributing it to the other, as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    and this is the reason for most of my ranting..no matter how many times i explain 'this is not what i said/meant' they/he keeps insisting that i did..IE you say i told everyone to 'STFU' but this is your own deviation of that thread..an attempt to ad homen me..(pry totally wrong usage)..
    i never told everyone to STFU i was asking for ppl to acknowlege a need , and accept a moderators 'STFU'..
    this is what ticks me off more than anything..no matter how many different ways i try to explain a difficult concept, you guys keep insisting i mean something else, usually you guys flavor that insistance with a negative attack on my character..
    When I read it, it definitely came across as though you were telling me that I needed to STFU and stop 'picking on' the Mods.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    of being 'harsh and rude'..etc etc..
    You're the one, actually, applying meanings to my words that I have not expressed.
    If you disagree with my words, you must also disagree with Adelady's- a Mod. Though she worded it better than I had, I was sure to make it known I agreed with her wording.
    The principle is this: Most of the time, members are encouraged to be civil and polite.
    Occasionally, one must attack the argument (not the poster) with such fervor that it's too easy for the poster in question to claim it's a personal attack when it's not. It's an issue of language and it must be allowable, otherwise, one cannot effectively put claims to the test if this barrier is placed.
    Even less occasionally, someone just needs a swift kick in the butt to get them moving. This, too, must be allowable.
    While members are encouraged to be reasonable, it's also reasonable to have allowance because otherwise, members are walking on eggshells and suffocated by restriction.
    You have turned this into "Having impunity to attack people at will." You have very little room to claim that your words were twisted when you expressed yourself here:
    "I have been on a 'rant' towards an individual here,(and others elsewhere) about him not taking responsibility for his Emotional state of being," - First sentence in O.P. of Emotional Culpability thread.
    And Here:
    "no..not for a qeustionable ban..
    because you don't know how to shut up..

    yea i know..you can't handle anothers opinion..don't even bother trying to defend yourself."
    from the STFU thread.
    No one twisted your words. You said what you are accused of saying and there it is in black and white.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    AND
    the fact that i started that thread with encouraging christa to take more pictures..and you two had totally ignored that and decided to try and destroy that thread with your emotional rant about the kitty with ABSOLUTELY NO consideration to christa and the intent of the thread.
    this was the final slap in the face that told me neverfly has absolutely NO respect for anyone but his own opinions.
    Don't you think you're getting carried away? Frankly, I respected the cat more than your opinion of the cat and you are getting carried away to say that means I disrespected Christa. Christa got after you about the cat, too. Did Christa disrespect Christa with that? So you stomped your feet and I dropped the issue. But it was you saying, "It's just a cat, who cares?" that elicited my response. You are showing no tolerance at all for others not seeing things exactly your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    apperantly it was an offending pic..
    It was an offensive attitude, actually...
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    lately they have been..i post and you two jump down my throat.
    (again more him than you)
    Actually, more her than me. Is that a gender bias? "A woman couldn't possibly be harsh with you so Neverfly musta done it?"
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    you two refuse to acknowledge your mistakes with me..which is where i am at with you two..frustrated with you two with not being able to treat me with ANY kind of respect and acknowleging your mistakes with me.
    The only mistake I am aware of is you did not like being called out on neglecting your cats medical needs. I will not apologize for that. You did not earn respect when you said "It's just a dumb cat" and I do not see it as a mistake on my part, but a mistake on yours where you failed to properly address the concerns about the cats medical welfare. You're shifting your own blame onto others.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    and you two still refuse to accept that you were emotional in that thread and i am still irked about it because i have not seen ANY desire to 'make things right' by apologizing for the kitty rant. much less take responsibility for your own emotional state of being..
    Dude, really? I disagreed with your devil-may-care attitude about the cat. I owe you no apology for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    no..i want a forum where others treat me with respect.
    I think you mean to say you want a forum where people treat you courteously. Respect is earned.
    Showing a lack of respect (even about a cat) does not earn you respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    (you can dish it out, but you can't take it..)
    Deliberately being harsh and rude (with a bad example) means that you've got to invent a reason to be. Now you seem surprised that there was a reaction to an invented harshness? And this goes in conjunction with you misunderstanding my argument about when harshness is appropriate and when it is not.
    Which is why she accused you of posting things that don't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    if you want to teach someone to learn from critisism..then you cant be harsh about it.
    That is your opinion. You have no sociological citations to support the claim that "Always nice" reaches people who are intent on their own ideas.
    In fact, I'd say I see a particular lack of success on it. Has HappyBrightly seen the error of his ways after people were nice to him?
    No.
    Nor did he see it after people were not so nice. True. But the not so nice at that point is not for his benefit, either- but for all the readers to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    if all i have to look forward to is someone telling my beliefs are BS and wrong?)
    Because that is Science. Wrong is wrong and you don't get to get coddled so that you feel good about it.
    The onus is on YOU to have the personal integrity to handle being told when you're wrong.
    Scientific discussion is not about pandering or coddling, it's about the vigorous and unrelenting testing of ideas. This is standard for every Science Forum on the web.
    It is standard for science.
    If a person submits a paper for peer review and it is rejected, the panel does not approach the person submitting the paper and psychologically prepare them for the let-down, hold his hand or coddle him. The paper is rejected on the grounds of being wrong.
     

  40. #39  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    ok guys, time to break up this cosy get-together
    there's no point continuing this conversation since it only leads to hard feelings

    all of you take a deep breath, and please take my advice : refrain from taking up this topic in the next few days, see if we can cool down a bit

    thread locked
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    thread locked
    In after the lock.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
     

  42. #41  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    sorry, forgot to post that i re-opened the thread, as promised
    although, tbh, not sure if serves that much of a purpose with its main contributor on 7-day leave
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

  43. #42  
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    Ok now seriously, can we please lock all these kind of threads and have no more, I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm so fed up with all this in fighting and moaning at each other. I'm far more interested in reading informative threads and having lively debates, so please everyone no more moaning!
    KALSTER, Admin, Strange and 1 others like this.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
     

  44. #43  
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    Agreed. I'll lock it.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

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