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Thread: Listen.Are we, The Members of The Science Forum, working towards making our Planet better?

  1. #1 Listen.Are we, The Members of The Science Forum, working towards making our Planet better? 
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Are we in this Forum because, at heart, we are endeavouring to improve our Lot and our Invironment? Trying to throw up ideas that may smooth the way into the Future? Making a more Peaceful World, for ourselves, and those who will be following us? How far should we take this? As always, the best of intentions lose impetious the further one attempts to iron out every little wrinkle. Education is believed by many to be the long term answer to many of the stumbling blocks that confront an ordered Society. Science alone, by itself, by its results, might come up with answers to streamline the workings of Societies. But, ultimately it is the Quality of Leadership coupled with endowed intelligence that may be the lubrication required for life on this Planet to survive in any worthwhile way. westwind.


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    The moment we start to take ourselves too seriously it becomes darned difficult to get a gig as a standup comedian.


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  4. #3  
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    I think you have a good idea Westwind. It would be interesting to have an area where the objective was to solve a societal problem instead of just arguing a point of view. There would probably have to be some ground rules though.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    The internet has enabled the common person to have a voice that can be heard around the world and so birth ideas that might never see the light of day otherwise through the traditional mediums of public communication which are acknowledged to be largely under the control of commerce and politics.

    More than leadership, what we principally need at this time are ideas of how best to move into the future, recognizing that there are forces at play that mock the best of our technology and that we are all in this together because weather patterns are global in scope.

    As for rules of engagement, there need be only one: respect.

    If one thinks an idea has merit, engage respectfully. If the idea does not make sense or resonate with you, move on, do not denigrate.
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  6. #5  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    If one thinks an idea has merit, engage respectfully. If the idea does not make sense or resonate with you, move on, do not denigrate.
    I cannot agree with this. Some ideas are fundamentally flawed, yet may hold an attraction for some. If these ideas also have the potential to deliver dangerous consequences then they need to be opposed and defeated. If this requires denigration to achieve that end, so be it.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    If one thinks an idea has merit, engage respectfully. If the idea does not make sense or resonate with you, move on, do not denigrate.
    I cannot agree with this. Some ideas are fundamentally flawed, yet may hold an attraction for some. If these ideas also have the potential to deliver dangerous consequences then they need to be opposed and defeated. If this requires denigration to achieve that end, so be it.
    Any idea can be engaged and debated respectfully for presumably if the idea resonated sufficiently to produce a counter argument there is value in the discussion.

    Still no need for more than one rule. Respectfully state the case. No more, no less.

    For that matter, almost all ideas have potential to deliver dangerous consequences and we are living with many of them now. None of us gets out of life alive. The best we can do is enjoy and perhaps marginally expand upon the potential of duration.
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    I think there is some literature on "brain storming" or "collective intelligence".

    The one book I read suggested that it works like improv comedy. I think that in "improv" you have to build on what was last said. So the one rule is "yes, and".

    So standard debate tactics, ridicule, even funny ridicule, will not work in this sort of area.

    One of the best manifestations of "collective intelligence" in industry can be read about in Bo Peabody's book: "Lucky or Smart".

    Peabody was leaving college and he wanted to start a company. He had three things going for him: he had average grades in undergrad, he had a bad idea, he had a "vision" of wanting to change the world--with his bad idea.

    Peabody brought together some programmers to work on his bad idea. In classic improv fashion, the programmers did Peabody's bad idea and said "and" eg: the programmers suggested a better idea.

    Peabody went with the better idea. In about three years Peabody created about 500 million in wealth.
    Last edited by dedo; September 27th, 2012 at 07:09 PM.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Some ideas are fundamentally flawed, yet may hold an attraction for some. If these ideas also have the potential to deliver dangerous consequences then they need to be opposed and defeated. If this requires denigration to achieve that end, so be it.
    I dunno John, our penchant for delivering harm to others may render your statement moot. You might as well shut down science if this is the case. I know you're speaking of the fundamentally flawed but the opposite has the same potential.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    Are we in this Forum because, at heart, we are endeavouring to improve our Lot and our Invironment? Trying to throw up ideas that may smooth the way into the Future? Making a more Peaceful World, for ourselves, and those who will be following us? How far should we take this? As always, the best of intentions lose impetious the further one attempts to iron out every little wrinkle. Education is believed by many to be the long term answer to many of the stumbling blocks that confront an ordered Society. Science alone, by itself, by its results, might come up with answers to streamline the workings of Societies. But, ultimately it is the Quality of Leadership coupled with endowed intelligence that may be the lubrication required for life on this Planet to survive in any worthwhile way. westwind.
    personally
    I'm here because I am a very curious fellow, (why i kept hanging out in universities for the better part of 13 years?)
    I was doing a web search about climate change and atmospheric layering, and one of the threads here came up
    one thing led to reading more, and aside from a few personality wrinkles, i find many regulars to have a deep appreciation for knowledge of all sorts.
    Some of which is stuff that I do not know nor understand(understood)----often, reading a bit of what I did not know here, has led me to further research---
    a pleasure for the intellect
    -------

    as for "Making a more Peaceful World," really way beyond my abilities ------"give me the strength to change the things that I can change"

    I consider most people I know, including professors, doctors, and lawyers to be woefully undereducated in the broader knowledge of our world and culture.
    But many are experts in their fields, and worth a listen when they head off in that direction.
    Personally, I'd like to see government funded education for as long as the student wanted-------grade and highschools+12 years, college =4 +12=16 and in some post grad =3-6 +16=20 or so----And, 20 years is not enough time to get a broad education with some reasonable depth.

    Science can facilitate our path through changing energy sources, while gaining a deeper understanding of our earth and it's interplay of atmosphere, ocean, land, plants and animals---and beyond to the stars and still farther
    add in some knowledge of the interplay of the people and cultures, past, present, and (?future?), and we have something approaching an education that should be used by all
    The more people know, the more they appreciate, the more they value? (one can only hope)---and with the knowledge, comes the ability to create more changes-----------

    but---quality of the education offered by many education systems is to be found lacking--------I have hired highschool graduates who are/were illiterate
    And college grads who didn't know what a flood plain was.

    leadership is a tricky subject, many who want to lead shouldn't, and many who don't want to lead should. leading from in front beats the hell out of leading from behind, but pales in comparison to leading from within.

    Bottom line:
    I'm here because you are.
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  11. #10  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Yes sculptor, And I'm here because you are. You handle ideas well, you analyise well, and you extrapolate well. Your summeries are worth taking on board. My education came from being curious too. Not being satisfied with what currently passed for knowledge at the time I was curious, and, feeling for a way ahead that would be more beneficial to Future Generations. It's in my nature to act like this, not because I want to tell other people how to live their lives, but to be able to shine a light. All this without a religious indoctrination. Maybe I love my fellow brothers and sisters, methinks though it is probably an isolated childhood in the wilderness of survival. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  12. #11  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    If you mean from chatting here on the forum then no. This is not the real world. The forum membership has very little global impact. Sure we may hear of somebody picking up an idea from here and making a go of it but the reverse is also true. I guess with every good idea there is a modicum of betterment that goes with it but, it would be cancelled out by the bad. The net is zero.

    Some of us feel better by providing an answer, debunking a claim or just establishing their authority on a subject so again, yes that makes the world a wee bit better. Still there are people that leave here with their tail between their legs, humiliated and embarrassed to the point where it does them no good and that also reflects upon the overall good of the world. Net again zero.

    So why do we enlist? Not to work at achieving world peace for one thing. Hope maybe? Hope that by being able to discuss amongst us various topics that we will establish some kind of identity or hierarchy with our peers(other members). We work hard to make our points, unfortunately it's usually at the expense of others I'm afraid. The danger comes when we think we are actually having some effect on the world. This thinking is damn near the same as religious faiths.
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  13. #12  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Dear thropo, thank you for your Poste. Look at the Thread this way. A lot of pleasure is derived from playing an intersting Game by following a set of rules. Can we, on The Science Forum, by working together, establish a set of rules for making the Planet a better place? We ourselves may not be able to go out there and make changes to the existing Status Quo and see any positive results in our lifetime, but if we can lay some of the ground rules down then those that follow might gradually be able to improve conditions. We do not have to give a complete set of rules, for fate and circumstance will have a role to play here, but some hard and fast rules may be possible. westwind.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    We do not have to give a complete set of rules, for fate and circumstance will have a role to play here, but some hard and fast rules may be possible. westwind.
    If you or anyone else has some idea of what Rule #1 should be then please share it with everybody.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  15. #14  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Having a stock take of our Planet in its present state, and being the originator of this Thread, I have a responsibility to suggest Rule #1.

    Rule #1. First step towards making our Planet better is to remove the weeds that we find at all levels of our Society. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  16. #15  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Surely the first rule would be to identify the weeds and distinguish them from the healthy plants. Did you know that the definition of a weed depends on perspective and context? So, before we choose the people who guide the people who do the weeding, we need to choose the people who will set the rules for making the selection of the selectors. As LynxFox said on the Venus thread - and I papraphrase - "Society is really quite complex."
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  17. #16  
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    Just one condidion when activating and implementing the First rule. Gloves must be worn. There will be some nettles. When we have tidied up our Earth Garden who gets to do the watering? westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Understand that the concept of world betterment is an idea, part of an unalterable evolutionary process.

    IOW's whatever happens should be to the benefit of man's survival. It may take education, technical advancement,war, cataclysmic cosmic or divine intervention, but we are either left standing or go extinct. We should think of life in general (the big picture) since our extinction could be its greatest benefit.
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    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  19. #18  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Understand that the concept of world betterment is an idea, part of an unalterable evolutionary process.

    IOW's whatever happens should be to the benefit of man's survival. It may take education, technical advancement,war, cataclysmic cosmic or divine intervention, but we are either left standing or go extinct. We should think of life in general (the big picture) since our extinction could be its greatest benefit.
    An excellent observation. Humans seem prone to the arrogant assumption that we are somehow a more beneficial species than any other, having elevated ourselves to the exalted position of being 'made in God's image', which is pretty interesting considering that God is a concept.

    It does seem highly logical that life on this planet could and would continue quite nicely without us. The main advantage that we seem to have over other species is in our ability to select from more variables and habitat in preserving our existence by means of our tools, technology and historical observations, a continuum of information related to past changes.

    Whether or not we are intelligent enough to put this knowledge to good use remains ever the question, IMO.
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  20. #19  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Last two Postes have given insight into the limitations confronting any re-designers of this rolling freight train we call Planet Earth.

    I accept all content expressed in these Postes.

    This is The Science Forum at its best as far as my interpretation of a genuine willingness to engage a concept and, with some thought, bring the real intestines of the idea out into the open. Clear enough for all Members to take in factual assessment.

    An interesting observation that sits side by side with the idea in this Thread. How we, as a humanity, in many parts of this Planet, have put ourselves outto improve the lot of our Bird Life. We are intent on making our Planet a better Place for our Birds.

    Now isn't this strange? We can do for our Birds what we cannot, with the same degree of confidence, do for ourselves. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  21. #20  
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    our species ain't the problem
    We are the solution to all problems
    ......
    perspective matters
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  22. #21  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    our species ain't the problem
    We are the solution to all problems
    ......
    perspective matters
    We may have solutions, but we very much are the cause of many of them also....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  23. #22  
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    fersure paleo
    we are but children tinkering with our toys
    we break a few, then learn how to rebuild them
    and by so doing find was to improve them
    ......
    we are just awakening to our power to influence the very planet that bred and bore us
    we learn more every day
    .............
    and, If we see ourselves as the solution, we will make that come true.

    whither hence?
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  24. #23  
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    And why would seeing our selves as the cause preclude the ability of us to correct things? (im still not a fan of your posting style btw, no offence)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  25. #24  
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    Cause and solution; it's gotta be both, or just solution.
    There is an old psychological maxim:
    That people tend to live up to your expectations of them.
    Expect them to be a problem, and they tend in that direction.
    Expect them to solve problems, and they tend in that direction.

    Perspective matters to the human psyche.
    Expect the best, and the shortfalls are better than status quo.
    ................
    no offense taken
    sometimes, I see myself as ionesco's Berenger
    would that I could conform

    OK dadio edided as per your request
    don't get so hung up on periods
    and punctuation
    are we but a keystroke away from mutual understanding?
    Last edited by sculptor; October 2nd, 2012 at 10:33 PM.
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  26. #25  
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    (*sigh*)

    Your pseudo-prose style posting is making your actual responses almost impossible to decipher. Please repost that in full sentences and without the flowery wording so I can follow what your trying to convey....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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