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Thread: Why I Plan to Leave the Science Forum

  1. #1 Why I Plan to Leave the Science Forum 
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    Simply put, I have found that this forum is not legitimate. I started a membership here hoping to discuss important scientific issues, but I've found that it is full of trolls who have nothing better to do than harass and insult other members. In addition, nothing is ever done about it!

    I have better things to do with my time. I'm very interested in science and seriously want to learn as much as I can about science in general and physics and math in particular. Sadly, I've found that this forum is not a good resource for doing so. I plan to move on to another forum soon hoping that it is legitimate.

    I should point out that the kind of antisocial behavior that infests this forum is not something that can go on with impunity forever. Recently authorities in my local area prosecuted people for harassing a girl online who attempted suicide because of that harassment.

    I'd recommend that whoever is supposed to be running this forum to clean up your act. You don't need that kind of trouble.

    Jagella


     

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  3. #2  
    Forum Isotope (In)Sanity's Avatar
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    The single largest problem with any and all forums on the internet that are not by invitation only is that you will always end up with a mixed bag of individuals. Some are going to possess the characteristics which are desirable to the theme of the forum, others will possess just the opposite.

    Can I assume you had a few bad experiences with individuals either correcting or belittling you? Were they just outright rude and annoying ?

    Perhaps we should make a list of the forums most undesirable individuals. I'm sure that would be the largest flame-fest in forum history.

    IS


    Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name
     

  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    The single largest problem with any and all forums on the internet that are not by invitation only is that you will always end up with a mixed bag of individuals. Some are going to possess the characteristics which are desirable to the theme of the forum, others will possess just the opposite.

    Can I assume you had a few bad experiences with individuals either correcting or belittling you? Were they just outright rude and annoying ?

    Perhaps we should make a list of the forums most undesirable individuals. I'm sure that would be the largest flame-fest in forum history.

    IS
    Thanks for the reply, Sanity. I hope you live up to your name because right now I could use some sanity.

    Yes, not all of the members here are trouble makers, of course, but I was often belittled by annoying and rude people here.

    Rather than make a "list of the forums most undesirable individuals," I'd recommend that this forum use moderators to police the forums for this kind of antisocial behavior. Abusive posts should be deleted, and their authors warned not to abuse other members. If the trouble continues, those members should be banned from the forum.

    I have no desire to participate in any "flame-fest." I just want to sensibly discuss science. That's what I thought this forum is for, after all.

    Jagella
     

  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Without Predjudice

    Jagella,
    you chose to insult an intelligent and valuable member of this forum, Dr. Rocket. You called him a troll and other things beside. If we did an accounting of the substantive contributions made by you and by Dr. Rocket in this forum who do you really think would come out on top? This is a science forum and science is a rough and tumble world. People do not pull their punches, but state things vigorously. Many do not suffer fools gladly. If you can't handle that, then it is best you move on.

    You compounded this attack on Dr. Rocket with a ludicrous, nasty personal insult directed towards me. You have not denied you made this insult, but have blithely continued on as if you were the injured party.

    Realise that if you are going to heap abuse and make libelous assertions about other members you must expect a reaction. If you don't like such a reaction, don't make those libelous remarks in the first place.
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Bachelors Degree 15uliane's Avatar
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    I have only been a member of the forum for a couple months, but do these types of people that always think they are being abused come along a lot? In the past month it seems there has been an uptick of these types of people.
     

  7. #6  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    It is not unusual. I don't think there has been a noticeable increase in incidents of late.

    I was fascinated as to what had led to Jagella's bizarre interpretation of reality, so I've been reviewing his early posts trying to find the source. Eureka!

    It is in the fourth thread initiated by Jagella, although there are earlier hints.

    Thread 1 - he asks for suggestions for books on quantum mechanics. Among the responders is Dr. Rocket. Jagella thanks all for the suggestions.

    Thread 2 - Jagella says he plans to self-study physics and asks if he could become a physicist this way. Dr. Rocket gives a terse, but probably accurate answer - No.

    Thread 3 - In this thread on capacitance Dr. Rocket again provides useful information to answer Jagella's questions.

    Thread 4 - Here Jagella poses the interesting question, how easily could Einstein have explained his ideas to Newton. After some informative posts this exchange took place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    There is very little, if anything, in mathemstics that is not subject to some mental picture. Just what that picture might be depends on the mathematician..
    Really? Then please provide us all with a "mental picture" (graphical representation) of the following function:

    f(x,y,z,w) = x + y + z + w

    If you or any other mathematician can picture five spatial dimensions, then I will be truly impressed! And I will admit I'm wrong, too, but I don't know if I need to worry about that.

    Jagella
    That 'Really?' and the dismissive last paragraph are snide and mildly abusive.

    Dr. Rocket, however, responds politely, clarifying his explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rocket
    That is just just an ordinary 4-plane embedded in 5-space. The key is that it is co-dimension 1, so, just like a 2-plane in 3-space it is characterized by a point and a normal vector.

    But nobody can provide you with a mental picture, you have to come up with them yourself. Like I said, the particular visualization depends on the particular mathematician. Learning to visualize is part of becoming a mathematician, and many people can't do it.
    In Jagella's response he lectures Dr. Rocket on how maths is done ( ) and adopts a patronising attitude though attacking a strawman. (See the two sentences I have emboldened.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    But how can we visualize five dimensions? We have only three spatial dimensions to think in and to see in. I've never seen more than these three dimensions.

    In any case, I think you may be missing my point. I'm not saying that mathematicians cannot think of much of mathematics as something they might see. What I'm pointing out is that much of math is unnecessary, difficult or impossible to visualize. It is an abstract language much like English. Can anybody visualize the fourth root of two? I don't think so. The best we can do is write it as 2^(1/4). Also, visualization in mathematics is often unnecessary. As we both know, there are many techniques for solving quadratic equations. Only one of these techniques involves visualization.

    I'd suggest you be careful when making all-inclusive statements. All anybody needs to do is come up with one exception to prove you wrong. Claiming that all of mathematics can be visualized or needs to be visualized can be disproved with one counter-example.
    Dr. Rocket's response is measured, but he has taken the gloves off.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    But how can we visualize five dimensions? We have only three spatial dimensions to think in and to see in. I've never seen more than these three dimensions.
    Who is we ?

    I said that mathematicians tend to think visually. That applies not to just 5 dimensions, but in fact to spaces of arbitrary dimensions, including infinite-dimensional spaces. I do it all the time. So do other mathematicians. Mathematicians speak to one another in terms of visual imagery as a matter of course. It is the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    In any case, I think you may be missing my point. I'm not saying that mathematicians cannot think of much of mathematics as something they might see. What I'm pointing out is that much of math is unnecessary, difficult or impossible to visualize. It is an abstract language much like English. Can anybody visualize the fourth root of two? I don't think so. The best we can do is write it as 2^(1/4).
    Wrong. It is a point a little to the left of 6/5 and is no more abstract or difficult to visualize than is 6/5.

    Depending on the issue, I might adopt a different visual technique -- maybe as a sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    Also, visualization in mathematics is often unnecessary. As we both know, there are many techniques for solving quadratic equations. Only one of these techniques involves visualization.
    Visualization is related to understanding. Mathematics itself is about understanding, not "solving". What you are demonstrating is one of the most common fundamental misunderstandings regarding mathematics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagella
    I'd suggest you be careful when making all-inclusive statements. All anybody needs to do is come up with one exception to prove you wrong. Claiming that all of mathematics can be visualized or needs to be visualized can be disproved with one counter-example. Jagella
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    There is very little, if anything, in mathemstics that is not subject to some mental picture. Just what that picture might be depends on the mathematician.
    I'd suggest that you learn to read with comprehension, and not make strawman arguements. Particularly about a subject in which you quite clearly lack expertise.

    Both salsaonline and I have told you that mathematicians visualize things that you claim are not subject to visualization. We have addressed specifics and I have provided examples. Both salsaonline and I are PhD mathematicians.

    Do you also tell bumblebees that they cannot fly ?
    From here the entire thing deteriorates rapidly. The essence of it is that Jagella, a graphic designer, is trying to tell Dr. Rocket a doctoral mathematician with decades of experience, how mathematicians do and do not think.

    In summary, Jagella initiated the abuse and personal attacks and did so on a foundation of sand. Good riddance, in my view.
     

  8. #7  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    I'm so sick of the dying swan routine. Either leave, or don't. Really, must you create a thread for it? Some people must not get enough love from mommy and need attention or something.
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    To all who are easily offended, I have one single bit of advice: make use of the "Ignore User" button you will find by clicking the "Profile" button at the bottom of any of that person's posts.

    You'll no longer be bothered with that person's opinions.
     

  10. #9  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    on the other hand, it would do good for a great many people frequenting forums to heed the following advice :

    "don't go out of your way to cause offense - don't go out of your way to feel offended"

    it would save a lot of unnecessary heartache
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    To all who are easily offended, I have one single bit of advice: make use of the "Ignore User" button you will find by clicking the "Profile" button at the bottom of any of that person's posts.

    You'll no longer be bothered with that person's opinions.
    Technology now allows us unparalleled control over our self delusions. Filter out those inconvenient bits of the outside world that tell you that not everything you happen to think is totally right.
     

  12. #11  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    "don't go out of your way to cause offense - "
    Really, it's no problem. Don't give it a moment's thought. I was passing nearby anyway.
    Strange likes this.
     

  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Without Predjudice

    Jagella,
    you chose to insult an intelligent and valuable member of this forum, Dr. Rocket. You called him a troll and other things beside. If we did an accounting of the substantive contributions made by you and by Dr. Rocket in this forum who do you really think would come out on top? This is a science forum and science is a rough and tumble world. People do not pull their punches, but state things vigorously. Many do not suffer fools gladly. If you can't handle that, then it is best you move on.

    You compounded this attack on Dr. Rocket with a ludicrous, nasty personal insult directed towards me. You have not denied you made this insult, but have blithely continued on as if you were the injured party.

    Realise that if you are going to heap abuse and make libelous assertions about other members you must expect a reaction. If you don't like such a reaction, don't make those libelous remarks in the first place.
    I would say that there was a certain person who were overly agressive, mostly parroting nonsens and attacking others relentlessly for giving their thoughts to simple matters, such people should be prevented from posting in a forum such as this, it will prevent people from posting their views in fear of being flamed and trolled to death.

    Mods have given such people far to much credit than their worth.
     

  14. #13  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Hexhammer, why have you resurrected a thread that is almost one year old?

    (Why have I compounded the issue by asking you the question?)
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    It's settled then, all of the blame rests with John Galt.
     

  16. #15  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    every forum needs a designated scapegoat
    i'm glad John volunteered
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

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