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| dylan |
 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: should farm animals be given shelters to use in their fields |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
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| i feel sorry for all the young lambs that are out in the cold weather with no shelter all farm animals should have acces to shelter it is cruel not to |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 373
Location: Montreal
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| Sheep evolved out in that cruel wilderness and are perfectly adapted to it o.O. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2682
Location: UKGBNI, England, Derbyshire
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So are you  .
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"There is no knowledge, that is not power" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 528
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Wild sheep moult, at least the bighorns around here do, in the summer. They have woolly coats in the winter and light coats in the summer. Domesticated sheep if shorn in the winter can be very cold. This is the practice in Australia, I believe (read the Sundowners eons ago).
In other words, no they are not perfectly adapted to it.
By the way, the idea of anything being perfectly adapted is one of the evolution fallacies described in the link provided recently by Jane Bennett. |
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Moderator
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 1041
Location: Nederland
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| I guess few big mammals adapted to the big open plains that humans now put them in, in nature sheep probably try to find some kind of shelter or windshield as well. So yea I see no problem in providing sheep with some shelter to sleep in. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1242
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Well, the wild animals sometimes die in a severe winter, so let's build some shelters out in the woods for the deer and rabbits too. And what about those predators? Shouldn't we be feeding them so they don't have to kill anything? |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 373
Location: Montreal
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| Bunbury wrote: |
Wild sheep moult, at least the bighorns around here do, in the summer. They have woolly coats in the winter and light coats in the summer. Domesticated sheep if shorn in the winter can be very cold. This is the practice in Australia, I believe (read the Sundowners eons ago).
In other words, no they are not perfectly adapted to it.
By the way, the idea of anything being perfectly adapted is one of the evolution fallacies described in the link provided recently by Jane Bennett. |
It is a figure of speech, not speaking in evolutionary terms. Sheep are highly adapted to cold environments, and I can guarantee that in Scotland and Canada they are not sheering the sheep before winter. Anyway, I'm pretty sure we keep the sheep indoors in Canada during the winter. Domestic sheep have been bred to lose the ability to molt, so they must be sheered or else they become overgrown.
If the sheep weren't adapted enough to survive the winter unharmed, then the farmers would not be doing it, because it would be economically unfeasable to be allowing half of your flock to die each year.
Anyway, apparently this is already done for the benefit of pregnant ewes.
http://www.sheep.cornell.edu/sheep/management/feeding/wintergrazing/windbreak.html |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 528
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| Quote: |
Sheep evolved out in that cruel wilderness and are perfectly adapted to it
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| It is a figure of speech, not speaking in evolutionary terms. |
Doesn't look like a figure of speech to me.
The point is that wild sheep are adapted (not perfectly) to all weather existence, and domestic sheep are not. Let's not overcomplicate the issue. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1242
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Bunbury wrote: |
| Quote: |
Sheep evolved out in that cruel wilderness and are perfectly adapted to it
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| Quote: |
| It is a figure of speech, not speaking in evolutionary terms. |
Doesn't look like a figure of speech to me.
The point is that wild sheep are adapted (not perfectly) to all weather existence, and domestic sheep are not. Let's not overcomplicate the issue. |
We don't even know that, do we? The sheep dylan saw out in the field might have been selectively bred for winter hardiness. All we know is that dylan saw some sheep in the field and felt sorry for them, and now he wants to hassle some farmer about how he is taking care of his sheep. The sheep might have been quite comfortable. |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 373
Location: Montreal
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| Bunbury wrote: |
Doesn't look like a figure of speech to me.
The point is that wild sheep are adapted (not perfectly) to all weather existence, and domestic sheep are not. Let's not overcomplicate the issue. |
Domestic sheep are better adapted to cold weather since they are unable to shed their fur, these are animals that normally live in winter conditions and survive just fine.
No farmer would be doing something that would harm his income, if the sheep were suffering in the cold and actually being negatively effected, it would be quite an easy solution for the farmer to build a shelter. These are herd animals that have evolved to group in cold conditions, and have heavy insulatory coats. The domestic sheep have been bred to have heavier and thicker coats, to the point where they can no longer shed.
By perfectly I meant that they were heavily and well adapted. Obviously nothing can be absolutely perfectly suited to something, and it was quite obvious what I meant. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 528
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| The sheep might have been quite comfortable. |
They might have been, and I wasn't taking a position on that. All I wanted to do was point out that tired-sleepy's comment about wild sheep has little relevance to domestic sheep. That's all folks.
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 373
Location: Montreal
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| Bunbury wrote: |
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| The sheep might have been quite comfortable. |
They might have been, and I wasn't taking a position on that. All I wanted to do was point out that tired-sleepy's comment about wild sheep has little relevance to domestic sheep. That's all folks.
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What domestic sheep didn't evolve outside?
Edit: I'm waiting for dylan's to post threads on hunting and seal clubbing, since he's so interested in animal rights. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 528
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| What domestic sheep didn't evolve outside? |
Your original point mentioned "in the wilderness".
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| Domestic sheep have been bred to lose the ability to molt, so they must be sheered or else they become overgrown. |
This didn't happen in the wilderness.
I'm tired of this. You can have the last word. |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Senior
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 373
Location: Montreal
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| Bunbury wrote: |
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| What domestic sheep didn't evolve outside? |
Your original point mentioned "in the wilderness".
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| Domestic sheep have been bred to lose the ability to molt, so they must be sheered or else they become overgrown. |
This didn't happen in the wilderness.
I'm tired of this. You can have the last word. |
Domestic sheep are often raised on pasture, and in medieval times those pastures were often very much wilderness, thus the need for sheep dogs.
They weren't bred in fenced in compounds like cows, moreover the domestic sheep is just a selectively bred mouflon, and much of it's traits were gained from the wild evolved sheep, it just happens to be even better adapted.
This is like saying that the pack nature of wolves isn't relative to why dogs were domesticated. It is the traits of the wild sheep that evolved prior to human intervention that makes them suitable for domestication. They are capable of living in the wilderness without much human intervention, and are apt to follow a leed and group together. The nature of wild sheep is very much relevant. |
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| Behr_25 |
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 62
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aren't sheep native to mountains or hilled areas?
if so then i would assume that they had adapted to harsher weather then what would occur out in fields were they are now.
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