April 5th, 2008, 12:46 PM
why is it that when someone claims a 'modern' religeon to be false they are considered ignorant, racist and are generaly thoght of as fools.
but when someone claims Greek/Norse/whatever gods to be false everyone agrees and we all have a good laugh about how silly the ancient civilisations were?
when you think about it the ancient religeons are no more weird than modern ones, what if Zeus is the real god? we will all go to Hell(whatever his hell is) for making fun of him!
if there is god (or gods in this case) they should be understanding and not punish people to eternal suffering just because a few jokes... after all, gods dont need to be egoistic in any way. and if they are then i dont want to have anything with them.
People all pick their gods by the times that they live in and fit them to their time.
I`m almost certain that there will be poping up new large scale religions in the far future (or the near, who knows), if theres some thing that history has thought us is that this thing is bound the happen.
btw, greek hell is called 'Tartarus' xD
No matter how we renew the concept of supernatural entities, it will always remain laughable in my mind.
But will you still be laughing if God really does exist and He uses his standards to hold you accountable for your life when it is ended?
Stop it.Originally Posted by Obviously
Before he did, I would do the same to him and he would grovel at my feet begging forgiveness.
If he sends me to Hell to burn in eternity just because I didn't believe in him, sure. If God is as unjust as that I will in fact laugh that coward in the face. Can't let a big bully take down your spirit (ironic sentence on at least 2 points, I know).
Stop what, my honesty? I made a good point. People laugh at the gods of ancient times, and in another 100 years or so we might laugh at the god we created in these times. I'm just saving time by laughing now, while I can.
aye! xD
Obviously misunderstands:
Well, that is kind of bassackwards. Hell is the default position. God's only role is to save you from that default and that is based on your decision in this life. God does not "send" people to hell; He saves them from hell if they ask Him to.If he sends me to Hell to burn in eternity just because I didn't believe in him
Obviously also misobserved:
The God apparently in question has revealed Himself to humanity since the earliest of times or approximately 4,000 years ago if you consider His first interactions with Abram, later Abraham. That long ago can hardly be considered "created in these times." Nor can I imagine a God worshipped for 4,000 years and still worshipped by a large majority of the earth's population being completely discredited in the next 100 years. More likely that He will have returned by then.People laugh at the gods of ancient times, and in another 100 years or so we might laugh at the god we created in these times
what makes you think that hell is the default place that we get sent upon death?
aint hell is a place that u get sent to after you commit so and so evils?
i mean, a man which denies god but did very little evil over the years still goes to hell by your opinion??
Now that's a little unfair considering I said if.
Right. I just asked him now (no answer apparantly). So now he knows I asked him at least. Wow, that was easy. Just in case though, if I land in Hell I guess I'll have to ask him again.
Yes, well. You might as well write a BIG supposedly behind all that because that is a BIG maybe.
By the way, what I meant by "created in these times" was obviously (ammagad, my nick!) that our interpretation of God is different from what people believed before. Scratch that. What I meant to say was our hundreads of interpretations of God is probably different from what they believed before.
As I said to begin with. No matter how we renew the concept of supernatural entities, it will always remain laughable in my mind.
Very cute. Perhaps I should write in bold letters "daytonturner supposes."
By saying something is laughable, your being self egotistical and adding your presumptious nature to religion and adding your uneccesary dogma, as usual.Stop what, my honesty? I made a good point. People laugh at the gods of ancient times, and in another 100 years or so we might laugh at the god we created in these times. I'm just saving time by laughing now, while I can.
Seriously, saying something is laughable and presenting it on the science forum, is not producing any positive or helpful feedback. You are adding your personal opinion and that if anything in 'intelligent' debate just poisens a greater outcome. Do I ever state my opinions of atheism? No. Because I know what would happen if I did, this thread would resort to the age old atheist/theist argument over and over again, and by this point Obviously, you should know that. Its a waste of time, lets stick with the OP.
Next time when a question comes up, try and answer it if you are going to post, not put your emotional opinion.
The whole nature of 'norse' Gods intruigues me, as do the Epyptians, and all other religions. I wish to learn the truth, and truths mixed with emotion and self opinions can cloud that truth.
That was your first contribution to this thread, that tells us your intentions immediatley.No matter how we renew the concept of supernatural entities, it will always remain laughable in my mind.
In future keep your personal opinion to yourself. Instead, try placing your scientific opinion yes? The whole point of a science forum?
Yes, I agree. I should continue to stay on topic like I have done, unlike some.
I've contributed more to this topic than you have so far. You're just going around telling people to sod off and keep their opinions to themselves. You stop it.
In an attempt not to make this post completely meaningless I'll contribute even more to the topic.
Of course, it's always been like that, even today. Religion can't stand a word against it. In an attempt to justify unfounded belief, pascal's wager is invoked fooling everyone to support the madness. It's as ridiculous as wearing an umbrella inside just in case.
Fear is the ultimate driving force behind religion. Fear of death. Because that's what it's all about, death. Who cares about life? It's death that matters! "And I just happen to know what will happen if you don't do this and this before you die. And how do I know this? Divine intervention, that's how. I have personal proof."
And of course it just happen to be many others with "personal proof" flying around telling people "No, no. He's wrong. My way is the right one. Follow me, or burn."
Madness. Insanity. Your god creates people to place them into the "default position" - an eternity of hellfire, then demands they worship him or they burn. That is one of the stupidest fairy tales ever told, Dayton.
Sorry, but you're an adult? You believe this nonsense?
And you equate your level of intelligence to man of 4000 years ago?The God apparently in question has revealed Himself to humanity since the earliest of times or approximately 4,000 years ago if you consider His first interactions with Abram, later Abraham.
Dont understimate the intellegence of the people of the past.
Do you really think that a modern man with some modern culture knowlegdge and things that he`s beem though in school/university/wheatever and a life expireance of 90 tops is more intellegent then a man who lived his life according to his beliefs, learned from hundreds of peoples over the years and has a life experiance of around 120 years??
I'm not. I'm over-estimating the intelligence of the people of the present.
Well, you shouldn`t do that eather cos you cant imagine how ignorent people are these days...
One need not imagine when valid examples flood these forums daily.
lol
I see I've hit a never. Getting personal now is it? That you are now attacking me? I thought I knew you better. Obviously, not.Yes, I agree. I should continue to stay on topic like I have done, unlike some.
I've contributed more to this topic than you have so far. You're just going around telling people to sod off and keep their opinions to themselves. You stop it.
As opposed to you who directly insults anothers by calling their beleifs laughable? By all rights I've every right to tell you to sod off, imagine the pain you can cause. Like a child who can cause harm to another, the adult must stop it, and there is no need to treat you like a child, not when you are a fully grown adult yourself ObviouslyI've contributed more to this topic than you have so far. You're just going around telling people to sod off and keep their opinions to themselves..
You retaliated to my post, you went out of relavance to point that out to me, so you've already just contradicted yourself there.Yes, I agree. I should continue to stay on topic like I have done, unlike some.
Common fallacies in this post:
(1) Appeal to majority(?)
(2) Misrepresentation
(3) Quote mining
(4) Sentimentality
(5) Hasty Generalization
Overall you have 11 certain points and 6 uncertain points which make together a total of 17 points in use of logical fallacies.I see I've hit a never (I suppose you mean "nerve"?) [5]. Getting personal now is it[5], [2]? That you are now attacking me? I thought I knew you better.[1?] Obviously, not. [1?]Yes, I agree. I should continue to stay on topic like I have done, unlike some.
I've contributed more to this topic than you have so far. You're just going around telling people to sod off and keep their opinions to themselves. You stop it.
Yes, I'm attacking your supposed moral supremacy over everyone else here.
As opposed to you who directly insults anothers by calling their beleifs laughable?[1?], [4] By all rights I've every right to tell you to sod off, imagine the pain you can cause[4]. Like a child who can cause harm to another, the adult must stop it, and there is no need to treat you like a child, not when you are a fully grown adult yourself ObviouslyI've contributed more to this topic than you have so far. You're just going around telling people to sod off and keep their opinions to themselves.
I said I found the belief laughable, and that's my opinion. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. It fit with the OP and made a good point.
You retaliated to my post[4?], you went out of relavance to point that out to me[1?], [2], so you've already just contradicted yourself there.[1?], [2], [3], [5]Yes, I agree. I should continue to stay on topic like I have done, unlike some.
You might wonder how I can accuse you for quote-mining. Simple. In the end you concluded I contradicted myself since I "retaliated" to your post and supposedly didn't bring anything else to the topic when in fact I did. The rest of my post which wasn't even mentioned in your post can be seen here:
Here I respond to the opening post in an attempt to not make my post completely meaningless, like this one.
This time I have nothing to bring to the topic at hand, but I'm openly pointing out that you're not either. You assume a lot of negative things about people you percieve as opponents and resort to logical fallacies. Very clever. I believe you're seeing too many wrongs in others and forget yourself. Here's an alternative way you could've responded to my first post:
Much better response, right?
Has it even occurred to you Dayton that this idea of Hell and God might simply exist in your mind as an illusion and might not actually be real?
Obviously not if you state other peoples theories to be wrong.
Oh how the illusion of a mind can fool itself so easily.
Yes. You proved to me I am huamly flawed. What do you want a medal?Much better response, right?
SHeeeesh.......425, you're so predictable that it's not even funny. Whenever someone states that he does not see the absolute truth in believing that some omnipotent (let's not go into that unstoppable force nitpicking about omnipotence, shall we) omniscient (funny that omnipotent and omniscient are mutally exclusive) omniwhatever beeing created the world out of sheer boredom or some other unknown reason you go absolutely apeshit. So instead of telling anyone who's thinking along those lines to get lost, why don't you show them your proof that they are wrong??
Hey, no theory (and 2000 year old handwritings with no proof of authorship in my book constitutes a very shaky theory at best) is excempt from critique. And this includes all the fairy tales about a hatemonging, unfair homophobic old man with a white beard sitting on cloud nine.
Oh, and BTW.......for someone claiming to follow HIS teachings, ya' know about the other cheek and so, you're endorsing a pretty nasty video-game
Selene said:
I recognize that my beliefs in God and an afterlife are beliefs. I also recognize that my belief does not confirm their existence any more than your lack of belief confirms their non-existence.Has it even occurred to you Dayton that this idea of Hell and God might simply exist in your mind as an illusion and might not actually be real?
The truth is that either the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob exists or He doesn't exist. Either there is a two-part afterlife or there is not. Any concept fits into one of those categories.
Those of us who believe feel that one's beliefs on these matters have eternal consequences.
I am reminded of what Paul says in II Cor. 4 when after saying that he figures all his suffering does not amount to much when compared to the glory of heaven, he adds, "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the thngs which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."
As believers we look beyond only those things which we can observe. We look beyond the evil, injustice, pain and suffering we experience and cause in this life to an existence which is free from those things. We believe the only way to obtain that existence is by accepting the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
As an old song says, "Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' own righteousness." We have a hope.
You may find this silly. On balance, I suppose the good in the world far outweighs the bad. Still, our world is far from perfect and we sit around blaming religion or lack of religion for the lack of perfection which we humans acting out of free will can never achieve.
We are human beings, and whether we are religious or not, we remain self-serving animals who inadvertantly or on purpose seem never to quite get to a point where we never inflict or receive some degree of suffering.
What we believers have is hope for an existence free of the unpleasant things we experience and inflict in this world. The non-believer's hope seems to be that he/she can eventually escape this "badness" by ceasing to exist. We believe that one moves from physical life to an existence in a place devoid of any evil or a different place devoid of any good.
Could we be wrong? Yup! Especially if we look only at the things which are seen which is what it seems non-believers do. We find that view short sighted and incomplete and try to tell others there is more to life than what they observe.
Thats funny, cos from what I see currently happening in the christian world is that MOST(not all) christians(and all religious people in general; including jews, muslems and... well.. thats the main ones) actually center ALL their belief system on these criterias
I mean, most of the "religious" people todays have completely forgotten the MAIN propouse of their religion which is usually centered around love and caring to the other, regardless of his beliefs and literally made their own religion that centers the ceremonial aspects of their religion at the core of their beliefs.
And those who dont... well. they are just pathetic, just think of the american religious good housewife steriotype and you`ll get what i`m trying to say...
Jeez....
Oi HanukaThats funny, cos from what I see currently happening in the christian world is that MOST(not all) christians(and all religious people in general; including jews, muslems and... well.. thats the main ones) actually center ALL their belief system on these criterias
I mean, most of the "religious" people todays have completely forgotten the MAIN propouse of their religion which is usually centered around love and caring to the other, regardless of his beliefs and literally made their own religion that centers the ceremonial aspects of their religion at the core of their beliefs.
And those who dont... well. they are just pathetic, just think of the american religious good housewife steriotipe and you`ll get what i`m trying to say...
Jeez....
Quote properly, i did not say the above!
Tut tut, a smack on the cheeks is coming your way..............
Mon Dieu!
lol oops
sorry matey, fixing it now xD
Perhaps. However, the probability of your gods existence is infinitely minuscule, at best, while the probability of your gods non-existence is considerably high.
You forgot to mention the thousands of other gods purported to exist with equal probability as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Mickey Mouse.The truth is that either the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob exists or He doesn't exist. Either there is a two-part afterlife or there is not. Any concept fits into one of those categories.
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