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Thread: Our world's greatest scientists and religion

  1. #1 Our world's greatest scientists and religion 
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    #1 Galileo "Father of Science"

    The church's view on Galieleo:

    Galileo advocated that the Earth orbited the sun and not the other way around. As a result of this revealation, Pope Urban VIII and high officials of the Catholic Church condemed his theory and forbid publication. Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.

    The Church's view on Newton:

    #2 Sir Issac Newton
    Known for Newtonian echanics,Universal gravitation Infinitesimal calculus and Classical optics

    Later in the 1670’s, Newton became very interested in theology. He studied Hebrew scholarship and ancient and modern theologians at great length, and became convinced that Christianity had departed from the original teachings of Christ. He felt unable to accept the current beliefs of the Church of England, which was unfortunate because he was required as a Fellow of Trinity College to take holy orders. Happily, the Church of England was more flexible than Galileo had found the Catholic Church in these matters, and King Charles II issued a royal decree excusing Newton from the necessity of taking holy orders! Actually, to prevent this being a wide precedent, the decree specified that, in perpetuity, the Lucasian professor need not take holy orders.

    Einstein's view on the Church

    #3 Albert Einstein

    1. Albert Einstein: Religion as an Attempt to Free Oneself from Primitive Feelings
    It is quite clear to me that the religious paradise of youth, which [I] lost, was a first attempt to free myself from the chains of the 'merely personal,' from an existence which is dominated by wishes, hopes, and primitive feelings.

    - Albert Einstein, quoted in Einstein, History, and Other Passions
    2. Albert Einstein: Minority & Ruling Class Control the Church
    The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.

    - Albert Einstein, letter to Sigmund Freud, July 30, 1932
    3. Albert Einstein: Religion and World Peace
    It has not done so up to now.

    Albert Einstein, reply to reporter's question if religion will promote peace
    4. Albert Einstein: Catholic Political Activism Danger to the Community
    I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.

    - Albert Einstein, letter, 1954
    5. Albert Einstein: Hatred and Persecution in Religion
    A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, the tragic-comical is found in this...

    - Albert Einstein, Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation, quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    Read the Full Quote
    6. Albert Einstein: Don't Take Seriously the Fools in Clerical Garb
    To take those fools in clerical garb seriously is to show them too much honor.

    - Albert Einstein, Comment on the Union of Orthodox Rabbis after expelling a rabbi because of his disbelief in God as a personal entity; quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    7. Albert Einstein: Religion of Fear vs. Moral Religion
    The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.

    - New York Times Magazine, 11/9/1930
    8. Albert Einstein: Divine Will Cannot Cause Natural Events
    The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. ...

    - Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)


    Hawking view on Religion:

    #4 Stephen Hawking

    One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics. [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

    Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now, centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference -- the possibility that space- time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death! [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), pp. 115-16.]


    #5 Summary
    After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture, the church was looking foolish in the wake of theories becoming fact and needed to save face in fear of losing its membership. Church's have since reformed it's ways of dealing with science. However, many individuals who can publish their thoughts anonymously on mediums like this message board, still persecute the scientific community and have not evolved with current Church policy.


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  3. #2  
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    ajg said:

    However, many individuals who can publish their thoughts anonymously on mediums like this message board, still persecute the scientific community and have not evolved with current Church policy.
    Do you have an example or two of this persecuton?


    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  4. #3  
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    persecution seems a rather harsh word to use for what is in essence a verbal disagreement on an internet site - no-one was actually hurt, apart from their feelings
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  5. #4  
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    "After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture"

    absolute myth, part of the founding myths of science
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishmaelblues
    "After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture"

    absolute myth, part of the founding myths of science
    Ah, denial...
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by ishmaelblues
    "After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture"

    absolute myth, part of the founding myths of science
    Ah, denial...
    "God doesn't exist".

    Thats denial isn't it?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    "God doesn't exist".

    Thats denial isn't it?
    Only if there's actual evidence for God.
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  9. #8 Re: Our world's greatest scientists and religion 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg624
    #1 Galileo "Father of Science"

    The church's view on Galieleo:

    Galileo advocated that the Earth orbited the sun and not the other way around. As a result of this revealation, Pope Urban VIII and high officials of the Catholic Church condemed his theory and forbid publication. Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.

    The Church's view on Newton:

    #2 Sir Issac Newton
    Known for Newtonian echanics,Universal gravitation Infinitesimal calculus and Classical optics

    Later in the 1670’s, Newton became very interested in theology. He studied Hebrew scholarship and ancient and modern theologians at great length, and became convinced that Christianity had departed from the original teachings of Christ. He felt unable to accept the current beliefs of the Church of England, which was unfortunate because he was required as a Fellow of Trinity College to take holy orders. Happily, the Church of England was more flexible than Galileo had found the Catholic Church in these matters, and King Charles II issued a royal decree excusing Newton from the necessity of taking holy orders! Actually, to prevent this being a wide precedent, the decree specified that, in perpetuity, the Lucasian professor need not take holy orders.

    Einstein's view on the Church

    #3 Albert Einstein

    1. Albert Einstein: Religion as an Attempt to Free Oneself from Primitive Feelings
    It is quite clear to me that the religious paradise of youth, which [I] lost, was a first attempt to free myself from the chains of the 'merely personal,' from an existence which is dominated by wishes, hopes, and primitive feelings.

    - Albert Einstein, quoted in Einstein, History, and Other Passions
    2. Albert Einstein: Minority & Ruling Class Control the Church
    The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.

    - Albert Einstein, letter to Sigmund Freud, July 30, 1932
    3. Albert Einstein: Religion and World Peace
    It has not done so up to now.

    Albert Einstein, reply to reporter's question if religion will promote peace
    4. Albert Einstein: Catholic Political Activism Danger to the Community
    I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.

    - Albert Einstein, letter, 1954
    5. Albert Einstein: Hatred and Persecution in Religion
    A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, the tragic-comical is found in this...

    - Albert Einstein, Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation, quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    Read the Full Quote
    6. Albert Einstein: Don't Take Seriously the Fools in Clerical Garb
    To take those fools in clerical garb seriously is to show them too much honor.

    - Albert Einstein, Comment on the Union of Orthodox Rabbis after expelling a rabbi because of his disbelief in God as a personal entity; quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    7. Albert Einstein: Religion of Fear vs. Moral Religion
    The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.

    - New York Times Magazine, 11/9/1930
    8. Albert Einstein: Divine Will Cannot Cause Natural Events
    The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. ...

    - Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)


    Hawking view on Religion:

    #4 Stephen Hawking

    One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics. [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

    Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now, centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference -- the possibility that space- time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death! [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), pp. 115-16.]


    #5 Summary
    After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture, the church was looking foolish in the wake of theories becoming fact and needed to save face in fear of losing its membership. Church's have since reformed it's ways of dealing with science. However, many individuals who can publish their thoughts anonymously on mediums like this message board, still persecute the scientific community and have not evolved with current Church policy.


    The church actually supports the current models of space-time, namely the big bang, because it represents a definitive "creation" concept. All previous steady state models have not proposed how "creation" can be evident.

    (I guess no one understand that...I babble a lot, right?)

    The only steady state model the church will accept is one that has a recurring creation event, but as yet science has not the mind, the theory, for that possibility. It's quite lame, when you think about it, namely that no scientist can present such a model.

    To throw my hat in the ring, the idea of a recurring creation is quite complex, suggesting either evolution and de-evolution or continued evolution to the point of extinction with an associated re-creation.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    "God doesn't exist".

    Thats denial isn't it?
    Only if there's actual evidence for God.
    The art of saying something does not exist, is denial. You deny the existence of God, as you would Santa Claus, the tooth fairy. Yeah they called him a myth too, and now he's head of the FBI. Anyway denial by definition is stating that one refutes to acknowledge an event or statement is viable.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    The art of saying something does not exist, is denial. You deny the existence of God, as you would Santa Claus, the tooth fairy. Yeah they called him a myth too, and now he's head of the FBI. Anyway denial by definition is stating that one refutes to acknowledge an event or statement is viable.
    Yes, I guess you're right. But you knew what I meant :wink:
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  12. #11  
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    Funny, I didn't feel like posting after you said 'I guess your right'. I'm going to have to go and analyse my psychology. Why do I persist in being right? I feel as though I am always right, but this is not the same as I used to. But I'm more bothered about getting you to agree with me than any other atheist. Thats curious. I must have seen a weakness .

    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Thats curious. I must have seen a weakness .
    You wish
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  14. #13  
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    I wonder, now I want to post to get the last word. Thats a Virgo trait apparently.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  15. #14 Re: Our world's greatest scientists and religion 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg624
    #1 Galileo "Father of Science"

    The church's view on Galieleo:

    Galileo advocated that the Earth orbited the sun and not the other way around. As a result of this revealation, Pope Urban VIII and high officials of the Catholic Church condemed his theory and forbid publication. Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.

    The Church's view on Newton:

    #2 Sir Issac Newton
    Known for Newtonian echanics,Universal gravitation Infinitesimal calculus and Classical optics

    Later in the 1670’s, Newton became very interested in theology. He studied Hebrew scholarship and ancient and modern theologians at great length, and became convinced that Christianity had departed from the original teachings of Christ. He felt unable to accept the current beliefs of the Church of England, which was unfortunate because he was required as a Fellow of Trinity College to take holy orders. Happily, the Church of England was more flexible than Galileo had found the Catholic Church in these matters, and King Charles II issued a royal decree excusing Newton from the necessity of taking holy orders! Actually, to prevent this being a wide precedent, the decree specified that, in perpetuity, the Lucasian professor need not take holy orders.

    Einstein's view on the Church

    #3 Albert Einstein

    1. Albert Einstein: Religion as an Attempt to Free Oneself from Primitive Feelings
    It is quite clear to me that the religious paradise of youth, which [I] lost, was a first attempt to free myself from the chains of the 'merely personal,' from an existence which is dominated by wishes, hopes, and primitive feelings.

    - Albert Einstein, quoted in Einstein, History, and Other Passions
    2. Albert Einstein: Minority & Ruling Class Control the Church
    The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.

    - Albert Einstein, letter to Sigmund Freud, July 30, 1932
    3. Albert Einstein: Religion and World Peace
    It has not done so up to now.

    Albert Einstein, reply to reporter's question if religion will promote peace
    4. Albert Einstein: Catholic Political Activism Danger to the Community
    I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.

    - Albert Einstein, letter, 1954
    5. Albert Einstein: Hatred and Persecution in Religion
    A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, the tragic-comical is found in this...

    - Albert Einstein, Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation, quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    Read the Full Quote
    6. Albert Einstein: Don't Take Seriously the Fools in Clerical Garb
    To take those fools in clerical garb seriously is to show them too much honor.

    - Albert Einstein, Comment on the Union of Orthodox Rabbis after expelling a rabbi because of his disbelief in God as a personal entity; quoted in: Einstein's God - Albert Einstein's Quest as a Scientist and as a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God (1997)
    7. Albert Einstein: Religion of Fear vs. Moral Religion
    The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.

    - New York Times Magazine, 11/9/1930
    8. Albert Einstein: Divine Will Cannot Cause Natural Events
    The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. ...

    - Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)


    Hawking view on Religion:

    #4 Stephen Hawking

    One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics. [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

    Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now, centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference -- the possibility that space- time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death! [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), pp. 115-16.]


    #5 Summary
    After years and years of persucuting scientists for introducing scientific facts and theories contradicting religious scripture, the church was looking foolish in the wake of theories becoming fact and needed to save face in fear of losing its membership. Church's have since reformed it's ways of dealing with science. However, many individuals who can publish their thoughts anonymously on mediums like this message board, still persecute the scientific community and have not evolved with current Church policy.


    The church actually supports the current models of space-time, namely the big bang, because it represents a definitive "creation" concept. All previous steady state models have not proposed how "creation" can be evident.

    (I guess no one understand that...I babble a lot, right?)

    The only steady state model the church will accept is one that has a recurring creation event, but as yet science has not the mind, the theory, for that possibility. It's quite lame, when you think about it, namely that no scientist can present such a model.

    To throw my hat in the ring, the idea of a recurring creation is quite complex, suggesting either evolution and de-evolution or continued evolution to the point of extinction with an associated re-creation.

    I suspect the latter theory of creation, because God would NOT let "us" (and I use that term very liberally) de-evolve. That's the point of God.
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  16. #15  
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    Now I need to find why I have to herald such things???

    ???

    ??

    ?

    .

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