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Thread: where have all the miracles gone?

  1. #1 where have all the miracles gone? 
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    Ok I am probably inviting a flame war here....

    i was just wondering the other day that all these amazing things that happen in the bible eg. parting the red sea ect. nothing like them have happened like them since. so what has happened to all the miricles?

    question no.2 - forgive me if this is a stupid question but.. if god exists, why cant he clear up all the contravercy and do something to stop everyone arguing about him all the time?[/u]


    'if one man beleaves in fairies its called madness
    if one million men beleave in faries its called religion'- Richard Dawkings
    (but i think he was quoting someone when he said it...but who cares)
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  3. #2 Re: where have all the miracles gone? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman
    Ok I am probably inviting a flame war here....

    i was just wondering the other day that all these amazing things that happen in the bible eg. parting the red sea ect. nothing like them have happened like them since. so what has happened to all the miricles?

    question no.2 - forgive me if this is a stupid question but.. if god exists, why cant he clear up all the contravercy and do something to stop everyone arguing about him all the time?[/u]
    1) I don't believe in God so the answer to that is that miracles never happened in the first place.

    2) This is a question that has been debated by philosophers for eons, the point is that in Christian theology God gave humans choice, for choice to exist faith must be without conclusive proof. If conclusive proof of God's existence is given then the value of faith is destroyed.


    The parable "The Grand Inquisitor" from Dostoyevksy's The Brothers Karamazov covers this problem.
    http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html


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  4. #3 Re: where have all the miracles gone? 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman
    Ok I am probably inviting a flame war here....

    i was just wondering the other day that all these amazing things that happen in the bible eg. parting the red sea ect. nothing like them have happened like them since. so what has happened to all the miricles?

    question no.2 - forgive me if this is a stupid question but.. if god exists, why cant he clear up all the contravercy and do something to stop everyone arguing about him all the time?[/u]
    1) I don't believe in God so the answer to that is that miracles never happened in the first place.

    2) This is a question that has been debated by philosophers for eons, the point is that in Christian theology God gave humans choice, for choice to exist faith must be without conclusive proof. If conclusive proof of God's existence is given then the value of faith is destroyed.


    The parable "The Grand Inquisitor" from Dostoyevksy's The Brothers Karamazov covers this problem.
    http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html
    1. God doesn't need to exist for a sea to part, for the blind to be healed, etc etc.

    2. Faith is a choice. Your point is 100% correct, faith is destroyed. That is the choice, knowledge or blind faith. Relate to the story of The Garden of Eden for more info (the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the one eaten from).
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  5. #4  
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    It is probably like launching a product. Lots of marketing events and promotions at the start, then no more investment once the brand is firmly established.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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  6. #5  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    It is probably like launching a product. Lots of marketing events and promotions at the start, then no more investment once the brand is firmly established.


    Nice one! Funny spoof.

    Must also include brand extensions and special offers - Lourdes, St George etc....
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  7. #6  
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    SantaClaus
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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  8. #7  
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    You know you shouldn't mock when people are present that might be offended, but I'm not but someone else may be. Think before you speak/type.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  9. #8  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    You know you shouldn't mock when people are present that might be offended, but I'm not but someone else may be. Think before you speak/type.
    Willmer, again we disagree, alas. This is a science forum and the offence, if any, will frequently be in the mind of the offendee - I can't control that - but why are you trying to censor me?
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  10. #9  
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    I'm merly trying to get you to understand other people and their feelings. Don't be selfish, be selfless. The offense is not in my mind all the way, there is no Alpha if there is no Omega. Half of the offense comes from you, and it is you that presents it that unifies that offense into existence.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    There's a fine line between using humour to make a point and insulting, but I think prasit's (priceless! ) remark is really in the first category.

    Think about it. Who would believe Jesus if he were alive today and just started to make his 'revelations' public? He would be one of many, his case not much stronger than that of say Hubbard and his Scientology church. He would actually need those miracles to get any attention.
    For some reason ideas become stronger with time, if several generations have believed something then for some reason we start assuming that it must have some truth in it. Nowadays most believers don't seem to need miracles anymore, it's enough for them to know that millions of people believed in it for many centuries. In other words: the product has name and fame and needs no publicity stunts anymore, maybe a 'miracle cure' here and there for maintainence. A bit like McDonalds: I haven't seen a commercial of them in ages but still I know who they are and what their product is.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    It is probably like launching a product. Lots of marketing events and promotions at the start, then no more investment once the brand is firmly established.


    Nice one! Funny spoof.

    Must also include brand extensions and special offers - Lourdes, St George etc....
    I don't think Prasit said it was a spoof did he, it's just normal business practice.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  13. #12  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I'm merly trying to get you to understand other people and their feelings. Don't be selfish, be selfless. The offense is not in my mind all the way, there is no Alpha if there is no Omega. Half of the offense comes from you, and it is you that presents it that unifies that offense into existence.
    Pendragon's with me and he's a mod (my dad's bigger than yours!) :P

    More importantly, though, Willmer, though you may not believe it, I have quite a good understanding of people and their feelings and have not just participated in, but delivered courses in equality, bullying in the workplace and so on. One of the most important things I've learned about is context - sometimes someone says something inappropriately offensive in a given context. But it is equally possible to be inappropriately offended in a given context. The first usually starts a fight, the second ruins the mood and any chance of a productive conversation.

    Now it seems nobody here was offended - nobody has said that's how they personally feel. And, as Pendragon suggested, in this context it was a perfectly appropriate remark (Prasit's) and mine was a happy cheering on and appreciation of it. Yet you have taken on the role of defending the hypothetically offended. Thereby leaving us all with a number of OT posts. So I leave it with you: whose was the least appropriate post - in context?
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  14. #13  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I'm merly trying to get you to understand other people and their feelings. Don't be selfish, be selfless. The offense is not in my mind all the way, there is no Alpha if there is no Omega. Half of the offense comes from you, and it is you that presents it that unifies that offense into existence.
    Pendragon's with me and he's a mod (my dad's bigger than yours!) :P
    I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. I'm one of several mods, so my opinion is one among several. Chaotic, if you feel strongly about this then I urge you to contact another mod and get a second opinion.

    I know you're just making a joke sunshine, but that's slippery ice you're treading on.
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  15. #14 Re: where have all the miracles gone? 
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman
    Ok I am probably inviting a flame war here....
    Yep. Put on yer asbestos goggles. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman
    i was just wondering the other day that all these amazing things that happen in the bible eg. parting the red sea ect. nothing like them have happened like them since. so what has happened to all the miricles?
    That's a big subject, which I won't try to compress by addressing it in these sentences.

    However, if we consider those events to be the dawn of Christianity, then it's not like many other things, is it? I mean, the United States had its initial bouts, and its revolution and civil war and all, but now that's over. I'm not saying the two examples are the same, but maybe you get my jist. :?

    You could also say that there are grander miracles and events happening today, but they're happening in other ways that fit today's needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman
    question no.2 - forgive me if this is a stupid question but.. if god exists, why cant he clear up all the contravercy and do something to stop everyone arguing about him all the time?
    There's been a couple threads in this forum about that already. I'd dredge up a few links for you...but I'm being lazy. :P

    Anyway, a little research should turn up our previous discussions on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    1) I don't believe in God so the answer to that is that miracles never happened in the first place.
    You mean "your" answer to that...

    Anyway, just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean those events didn't exist. Perhaps not in the way written and glorified by the victors, but still. What events happened and how they were portrayed later aren't always the same.
    Wolf
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    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
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  16. #15  
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    I don't think Prasit said it was a spoof did he, it's just normal business practice.
    Exactly. What's all the fuss about? What Prasit wrote is the serious view of many historians, stated succinctly by him.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I'm merly trying to get you to understand other people and their feelings. Don't be selfish, be selfless. The offense is not in my mind all the way, there is no Alpha if there is no Omega. Half of the offense comes from you, and it is you that presents it that unifies that offense into existence.
    Pendragon's with me and he's a mod (my dad's bigger than yours!) :P
    I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
    Playground joke only: "My brother's bigger than yours", "My dad's bigger than yours" style of thing. Did not intend to skate on thin/slippery ice.

    Apologies if so.
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