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Thread: What religion of Islam?

  1. #1 What religion of Islam? 
    Forum Freshman Islam girl's Avatar
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    Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the world

    Did you read about Islam from it,s original sources?
    Is the information about Islam that published at International Media is correct ?

    Excuse me!!
    Would you stop for a moment?!
    O...man...Haven't you thought-one day- about yourself ?
    Who has made it?
    Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!
    Have you seen a wonderful,delicate work without a worker ?!
    It's you and the whole universe!..
    Who has made them all ?!!
    You know who ?.. It's "ALLAH",prise be to him.
    Just think for a moment.
    How are you going to be after death ?!
    Can you believe that this exact system of the universe and all of these great creation will end in in nothing...just after death!
    Have you thought, for a second, How to save your soul from Allah's punishment?!
    Haven't you thought about what is the right religion?!
    Read ... and think deeply before you answer..
    It is religion of Islam.
    It is the religion that Mohammad-peace upon him- the last prophet, had been sent by.
    It is the religion that the right Bible- which is not distorted-has preached.
    Just have a look at The Bible of (Bernaba).
    Don't be emstional.
    Be rational and judge..
    Just look..listen...compare..and then judge and say your word.
    We advise you visiting :

    WHAT IS ISLAM?

    http://www.saaid.net/islam/4.htm (http://www.saaid.net/islam/4.htm)
    http://www.islam-guide.com (http://www.islam-guide.com/)
    http://www.thetruereligion.org (http://www.thetruereligion.org/)
    http://www.it-is-truth.org (http://www.it-is-truth.org/)
    http://www.beconvinced.com (http://www.beconvinced.com/)
    http://www.plaintruth.org (http://www.plaintruth.org/)
    http://english.islamway.com (http://english.islamway.com/)
    http://www.todayislam.com (http://www.todayislam.com/)
    http://www.prophetmuhammed.org (http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/)
    http://www.islamtoday.net/english/ (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/)
    http://www.islamunveiled.org (http://www.islamunveiled.org/)
    http://www.islamic-knowledge.com (http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/)
    http://www.saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/dalelk.htm#1 (http://www.saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/dalelk.htm#1)
    http://www.saaid.net/islam/7.htm (http://www.saaid.net/islam/7.htm)
    http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/Islamic.zip (http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/Islamic.zip)
    http://www.saaid.net/islam/3.htm (http://www.saaid.net/islam/3.htm)
    http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/Isla...d-Concepts.zip (http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/Isla...d-Concepts.zip)
    http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/You_ask.zip (http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/You_ask.zip)

    .................................................. .

    What is Islam ما هو الإسلام?

    Islam is not a new religion, but the same truth that God revealed through all His piophegs to every people. For a fifth of the world' population, Islam is both a religion and a complete way of life. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness.


    What do Muslims believe بماذا يعتقد المسلمون؟


    Muslims believe in One, Unique, Incomparable God; in the Angels created by Him; in the prophets through whom His revelations were brought to mankind; in the Day of Judgment and individual accountability for actions; in God’s complete authority over human destiny and in life after death.


    How Does someone become a Muslims كيف تصبح مسلمأ؟ “

    Simply by saying there is no god apart from God, and Muhammad he Messenger of God.” By this declaration the believer announces his or her faith in all God's messengers, and the scriptures they brought.

    What is the Ka'ba? ماهي الكعبة

    The Ka'ba is the place of worship which God commanded Abraham and Ismael to build over four thousan years ago. The building was constructed
    Of stone on what many believ was the orginal site of a sanctuary established bt Adam. God commanded Abraham to summon all mankind to visit this place, and when pilgrim go there today they say ' At thy service, O Lord ' , in response to Abraham's summons.


    Who is Muhmmad? (صلى الله عليه وسلم ) من هو محمد

    Muhammad (pbuh) was born im Makah im the year570, at a time when Christianity was not yet fully established in Europe. Since his father died before his mother shortly afterwards, he was raised by his uncle from the respected tribe of Quraysh, As he grew up, he became know for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in deputies. The historians describe him as a clam and meditative.


    How did the Islam spread كيف انتشر الإسلام؟

    Among the reasons for the rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the simplicity of its doctrine. Islam calls for faith in only One God worthy of worship. It also repeatedly instructs man to use his powers of intelligence and observation.


    What is the Quran ? ماهو القرآن

    The Quran is a record of the exact words revealed by God through the
    Angel Gabriel to the proptet Mutammas (pbuh) . It was memorized
    Muhammad (pbuh) and then dictated to his ' Companions', and written down by scribes, who crossch ecked it during gis lifetime, Not one word of its 114 chapters, (Suras) has been changed over the centuries, so that the Quran is in every detail the unique and miraculous **** which was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) fourteen centuries ago.


    What do Muslims think about Jesus? ما رأي المسلمين بعيسى عليه السلام ..

    Muslim respect and revere Jusus (pbuhعليه السلام) and await his Second Coming . They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind.A Muslim nevere refers to him simply as 'Jesus' but always adds the phrase 'upon gim be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (achpter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary') and Mary is considered the purest women all creations. Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously through the same power which had brought Adam (pbuh) into being without a father.


    What about Muslim women?ماذا عن المرأة المسلمة

    Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the righ to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marriage dowry is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her own family name rather than taking her husband's.


    How do Muslims view deat? ماهي رؤية المسلمين عن الموت


    Muslims believe that the presen life is only a trial preparation for the next realm of existence. Basic articles of faith include: the Day of Judgment, resurrection, Heaven and Hell

    ...............................................

    Do you want to know more about Islam You're only click on this link:

    http://www.islam-guide.com

    http://www.i-g.org

    Do you have a question about Islam ... prefers ask God willing, I will answer you will


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  3. #2  
    Forum Freshman Islam girl's Avatar
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    I do not want anything but to inform and you will not believe me, visit the links may never regret it .... Matbgeson find the truth that will comfort when knowledge
    Exposed to this link .. just waited a little until then download watched .....

    http://saaid.net/flash/113644.htm

    I wish you a happy life.

    thank you.


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  4. #3  
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    I don't think too many people here are going to get too excited about joining a religion that teaches that people who leave should be killed.
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  5. #4  
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    I suppose you actually believe you're the first here to provide Islamic propaganda?

    Have you thought, for a second, How to save your soul from Allah's punishment?!
    Why would anyone be stupid enough to join a cult to save yourself from the god who wants to punish you if you don't?

    Be rational and judge..
    Ok, your cult has a history of violence, oppression, racism and bigotry. It suppresses the intellect and treats women as chattel.

    Your god, the god of Abraham, is cruel and immoral and a murderous despot.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman Islam girl's Avatar
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    Both Sir, I invite you to the truth that you want ..
    Then sir Do you know what I mean Islam .. Did I read days on the rights of women in Islam and harms women is to apply the rules of Islam that I wanted Sir will put your hands between women's rights in Islam to learn yourself, we appreciate and glorified women
    Women precious jewel tampering by any person who estimated price
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I don't think too many people here are going to get too excited about joining a religion that teaches that people who leave should be killed.
    :-D Theres nothing in the Qur'an about it. Could you quote me from any Islamic source to support your statement?
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  8. #7  
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    Ok, your cult has a history of violence, oppression, racism and bigotry. It suppresses the intellect and treats women as chattel.

    Your god, the god of Abraham, is cruel and immoral and a murderous despot.
    Which history you are referring to? Does any religion has to do with the human violence? in my sense Religions are perfect, its only the followers who misinterpret it.
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  9. #8  
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    Dear Islamgirl,

    I suggest you post your own thougts/writings about your religion rather than copying from sites, and please refrain from posting links. Start a topic and discuss with members here.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Dear Islamgirl,

    I suggest you post your own thougts/writings about your religion rather than copying from sites, and please refrain from posting links. Start a topic and discuss with members here.
    Links are fine, as long as they are for the use of naming her sources. As you say though, she should start her own topics and stop merely posting propeganda. I fear her stay on this forum will be an unpleasent one.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  11. #10  
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    Is it this time of the year already?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I don't think too many people here are going to get too excited about joining a religion that teaches that people who leave should be killed.
    :-D Theres nothing in the Qur'an about it. Could you quote me from any Islamic source to support your statement?
    Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17: "Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.

    Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: " Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
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  13. #12  
    Forum Freshman Islam girl's Avatar
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    Excuse me .. if you believe Bdiantek I also believe were strongly

    Why actually not acceptable to you ???????

    I did not want to fraud and made a false name and another is not clear I am a Muslim and I am proud that you were proud to hear .. and because the fraud is unacceptable in my

    But I know many like you, but when they believed in Islam and changed it completely .... I apologize to react now will come back later

    Anyone who wants my evidence would have gladly

    It learned that nobody knows you, like me, Islam here
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Islam girl
    Both Sir, I invite you to the truth that you want ..
    Then sir Do you know what I mean Islam .. Did I read days on the rights of women in Islam and harms women is to apply the rules of Islam that I wanted Sir will put your hands between women's rights in Islam to learn yourself, we appreciate and glorified women
    Women precious jewel tampering by any person who estimated price
    "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Quran, 4:34)

    So apparently part of "appreciating and glorifying women" is teaching that they are inferior to men, that god likes men better, and that husbands should "scourge" their wives if the wives aren't "obedient" to men. Yeah, that's some real nice respect for women that your religion seems to have going.
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  15. #14  
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    Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in Christianity either - but at least Christianity seems to have a nice message. I don't think that Jesus was magic, but at least he never said that people should beat their wives and kill people who try to leave their religion.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil

    Which history you are referring to?
    Your cults history.

    Does any religion has to do with the human violence? in my sense Religions are perfect, its only the followers who misinterpret it.
    Then, religions are far from perfect if so easily misinterpreted that leads to violence and oppression, hence should be discarded immediately for something easily interpreted that cannot lead to violence and oppression, don't ya think?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Islam girl
    Excuse me .. if you believe Bdiantek I also believe were strongly

    Why actually not acceptable to you ???????

    I did not want to fraud and made a false name and another is not clear I am a Muslim and I am proud that you were proud to hear .. and because the fraud is unacceptable in my

    But I know many like you, but when they believed in Islam and changed it completely .... I apologize to react now will come back later

    Anyone who wants my evidence would have gladly

    It learned that nobody knows you, like me, Islam here
    You sorta talk like Yoda, without lucidity.
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  18. #17  
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    Has anyone else noticed that the Islamic "preachers" who come here seem disturbingly willing to lie about what Islam teaches? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Christianity either, but at least the Christians seem open about what their church teaches. They realize that telling people homosexuality/birth control/sex outside of marriage/whatever is wrong will make them unpopular, but at least they have the guts to be clear about where they stand. The Muslims, on the other hand, will happily tell you that their religion teaches respect for women - even thought their own holy book very explicitly says that men were made superior to women by god, that husbands should beat their wives if the wives aren't obedient, etc. Of course it might not be a regular thing with Muslims, it could just be a problem with the cut-and-paste idiots we get here.

    I wonder if Islam girl will now try to explain to everyone about how Islam "appreciates and glorifies women," even as it teaches that they should be beaten if they don't obey their husband.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in Christianity either - but at least Christianity seems to have a nice message. I don't think that Jesus was magic, but at least he never said that people should beat their wives and kill people who try to leave their religion.
    On the other hand, he wanted to fulfil the Law and the Prophets, and also asked of us to gouge out our eyes if they sinned for us :-D
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  20. #19 Re: What religion of Islam? 
    (Q)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Islam girl

    Do you have a question about Islam ... prefers ask God willing, I will answer you will

    ...save your soul from Allah's punishment?!
    Why does your god wish to punish me if I have done no harm to him?
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  21. #20  
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    It you really believe in Allah, if you really believe in God, then just keep quiet and worship your damn god. I don't care a bit of what you believe. These pathetic attempts to persuade us are worthless and, from time to time, very annoying.
    Get off my bandwidth!
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in Christianity either - but at least Christianity seems to have a nice message. I don't think that Jesus was magic, but at least he never said that people should beat their wives and kill people who try to leave their religion.
    Well, uuum ok


    Deuteronomy

    Chapter 13

    KJV



    1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.



    6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.



    12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

    so you see apostates are to be put to death according to the bible. Not only that, those who even tries to convert should also be killed and the cities are to be destroyed.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I don't think too many people here are going to get too excited about joining a religion that teaches that people who leave should be killed.
    :-D Theres nothing in the Qur'an about it. Could you quote me from any Islamic source to support your statement?
    Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17: "Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.

    Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: " Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
    Quran is silent on the punishment of apostasy. It says God will deal with the apostates after life or on the day of judgement. As far as i know it is important to understand Hadiths in proper historical context. even Some Hadiths cannot be relied on. The above mentioned hadiths were applied when some people tried to demean Islam by joining and rejecting it over and over again.

    Get yourself a hadith book or join Islamic forums where it explains on what situation, A hadith is written. I wanted to add more about apostasy in Islam from my point of view until i have come across a site http://answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm
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  24. #23  
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    Then, religions are far from perfect if so easily misinterpreted that leads to violence and oppression, hence should be discarded immediately for something easily interpreted that cannot lead to violence and oppression, don't ya think?
    Its not the weakness of any religion I suppose. WE, our corrupt minds are responsible here once again for any misinterpretations. If you read any bible or Quranic verse according to your whims and desire and try to make it in favor of you, surely you can easily do it and likewise you can misinterpret anything to your favor unless someone reminds you are wrong.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Its not the weakness of any religion i suppose. WE, our corrupt minds are responsible here once again for any misinterpretations. If you read any bible or Quranic verse according to your whims and desire and try to make it in favor of you, surely you can easily do it.
    You can do that with anything, but since it stands so clearly what must be done in such books, how can you not "misinterperate" it?
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    You sorta talk like Yoda, without lucidity.
    Be nice!

    Islamgirl: Although preaching isn't really appreciated, if you contain it to this thread, and don't derail other threads, there won't be a problem!
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  27. #26  
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    Which history you are referring to? Does any religion has to do with the human violence? in my sense Religions are perfect, its only the followers who misinterpret it.
    Then how do you define Religion? What is perfect about them. . . .a holy book??? :? . Just what are we talking about that's perfect?
    "I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch."

    -Dr. James Watson, American biologist
    (Discoverer of DNA)
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    Religions are what their followers make of it. When a religious person does something (for religious reasons) that another religious person doesn't think is a religious act, then they become a not truly religious person.



    In regards to Islam, no offence but if Muhammed existed now he'd be done for plagerism so bad, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was an epileptic given his propensity to disappear into trances (or so I've heard, could be wrong on this point).
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip McWho
    Religions are what their followers make of it.
    I am in full agreement! That's why it would be wise to create a religion that makes sense. One that isn't built on the foundation of homophobic, racist, violent and immoral scriptures. And also one that doesn't make you a complete ignorant moron through pshycologically damaging rituals etc (having scientology in mind here). Well, that rules out most religions, guess having no religion is the better choice then
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in Christianity either - but at least Christianity seems to have a nice message. I don't think that Jesus was magic, but at least he never said that people should beat their wives and kill people who try to leave their religion.
    Although I am a Christian, I must admit that I felt a bit of skepticism at your comment and so it was certainly no surprise to me that mkafil could demonstrate that their are equally embarassing passages in the Bible. All this goes to show that what a non-believer can find when looking for dirt, really has nothing to do with what a religion is all about. On the other hand, it is rather obvious to me than that the non-religous do have some small cause to be a bit more comfortable with Christianity than with Islam. But before I say what these reasons are I want to make it clear that I do not neccessarly give any credit for this to Christianity itself, for many other things are playing a role such as the culture, temperment, history and environment of the people involved, all playing a role quite apart from the influence of these two religions.

    The first cause that I think the non-beleiver has for greater comfort with Christians than with Islam is the simply fact that Christian societies have upheld principles of religious freedom that has not only defended the rights of non-believers but have made their government secular and thus largely neutral in the religious arena. Many Christians now lament this but other Christians like myself remain committed to these ideals of classical liberalism. One reason NOT to consider Christianity itself as being responsible for this current difference, is that there are eras of history (the dark ages) where these roles have been reversed and it was Islam that was the more tolerant of the two.

    The second cause is rather apparent in numerous stories from around the world and this is that members of Islam seem far more ready to resort to violence when they perceive that their religion is insulted or threatened. Another way to put this is that the members of Islam don't seem to have much of the kind of sense of humor that allows them to laugh at themselves and one result of this is that I don't think they have the same capacity to subject themselves to quite the same degree of self-criticism. Despite the frequency with which Christians often become unbearably self-righteous, Chrisitianity has a very strong bias against self-righteousness while not quite an equally strong bias against rational reflection. In other words, there is a delicate balance here between conflicting views of man, which both distrusts man as corrupt while also seeing something of the divine in man as well. This balance of strongly opposing views is important because it gives us the confidence to create and try new things, while keeping a critical eye on these endeavors as well.

    But again where I see a clear reason for the preference by non-believers and a clear advantage in Christians for self-criticism, this may have far more to with things like culture, temperment, history and environment than to do with the religions of Christianity and Islam themselves. Perhaps the Muslim participants in this discussion can find support in their religious literature to support this same delicate balance between opposing views of man. What do you think?



    P.S. It hardly surprises me that the vote here 100% yes, for clearly the vast majority are going to think they have sufficient knowlege Islam, for otherwise they would take the time to find out more and thus rectify this. Of course the trick is that what different people consider sufficient knowledge of this topic is going to vary greatly.
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    I want you to identify a topic for discussion even discuss scientifically valid and you proved my point that you do not have pop

    and thank you for your time
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis

    Islamgirl: Although preaching isn't really appreciated, if you contain it to this thread, and don't derail other threads, there won't be a problem!
    Preaching is allowed here??? You're kidding, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    Islamgirl: Although preaching isn't really appreciated, if you contain it to this thread, and don't derail other threads, there won't be a problem!
    Preaching is allowed here??? You're kidding, right?
    We have allowed you complete freedom in a multitude of threads to preach your atheisitic, anti-religious stance, without let or hindrance. I really don't think you can object to 'the other side' getting a shot within the confines of a dedicated thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    We have allowed you complete freedom in a multitude of threads to preach your atheisitic, anti-religious stance, without let or hindrance. I really don't think you can object to 'the other side' getting a shot within the confines of a dedicated thread.
    Then, by your definition, everyone here has been preaching, you included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Then, by your definition, everyone here has been preaching, you included.
    You may be right, but since I have never adopted an anti-religion stance I take it you are being mroe general. would you like to cite an example.

    Mitchell, thank you for about the only post in the entire thread that involved conscious thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Islam girl
    I want you to identify a topic for discussion even discuss scientifically valid and you proved my point that you do not have pop
    and thank you for your time
    Normally the topic for discussion would be proposed by the person opening the thread.

    Islam Girl, why do you imagine there is such hostility, as exhibited by many of the responses on this thread, towards Islam? Why do you think there is this misunderstanding of its true character? Any thoughts?
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    People arn't angry with Islam. They are angry with people trying to tell them how to think and act. People of less intelligence may appriciate that. But you are on a science board. We are more intelligent then you give us credit for. Intelligent people do NOT like being told how to think or act. We have more freedom then the random idiot down the street, since we do not allow others to rule our lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis

    Islamgirl: Although preaching isn't really appreciated, if you contain it to this thread, and don't derail other threads, there won't be a problem!
    Preaching is allowed here??? You're kidding, right?
    No, not really. Like I said, as long as she keeps this to one thread, I don't have a problem with it. We frown upon multiple threads on the same subject, and multiple posts in the same thread. Basically, if no one responds, the thread will die down, and she'll either have to switch to other subjects, or move on to a different forum.
    If you feel like discussing the various points that she brings up, you are free to do so. You are free to quote earlier posts where you might have outlined her criticism.

    Anyway, if you have any further questions or comments, PM me, and we'll discuss it in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist
    Which history you are referring to? Does any religion has to do with the human violence? in my sense Religions are perfect, its only the followers who misinterpret it.
    Then how do you define Religion? What is perfect about them. . . .a holy book??? :? . Just what are we talking about that's perfect?
    According to my view, Muslims believe God is perfect and whatever He revealed for the mankind is also perfect. The holy Book according to Islam is from God and unaltered as of now. It is therefore a perfect Book. There are some Muslim extremists with their ignorance pick up certain Quranic verses to justify their Killings and it is absolutely wrong. May be that verse was not intended for that.

    I think the extremist followers of other religions also find loopholes to justify their wrong act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flip McWho
    In regards to Islam, no offence but if Muhammed existed now he'd be done for plagerism so bad, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was an epileptic given his propensity to disappear into trances (or so I've heard, could be wrong on this point).
    In Islam no one but God has the rights to change his words. To Muslims, Its the final word of God and they are not allowed to change even a dot from the Quran.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    According to my view, Muslims believe God is perfect and whatever He revealed for the mankind is also perfect. The holy Book according to Islam is from God and unaltered as of now. It is therefore a perfect Book....

    In Islam no one but God has the rights to change his words. To Muslims, Its the final word of God and they are not allowed to change even a dot from the Quran.
    And it very clearly says that women are inferior to men and that men should beat their wives if they are disobedient. Yes, clearly the work of a perfect, divine being.
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    mkafil: do you think that the Qur'an is open to interpretation?
    "I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    According to my view, Muslims believe God is perfect and whatever He revealed for the mankind is also perfect. The holy Book according to Islam is from God and unaltered as of now. It is therefore a perfect Book....

    In Islam no one but God has the rights to change his words. To Muslims, Its the final word of God and they are not allowed to change even a dot from the Quran.
    And it very clearly says that women are inferior to men and that men should beat their wives if they are disobedient. Yes, clearly the work of a perfect, divine being.

    :-D Quote me the verse. I will try to answer you or seek help from my muslim friends why this verse was revealed? i will explain the verse with the proper context. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist
    mkafil: do you think that the Qur'an is open to interpretation?
    You can interpret as long as you don't change its meaning completely. let me just get confirmed. I will let you know about it. please be patient with me.
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    You can interpret as long as you don't change its meaning completely. let me just get confirmed. I will let you know about it. please be patient with me.
    So if you change the meaning just a little is that ok??? Doesn't how you interpret something determine what it means to you?
    "I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch."

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    It's been said by people who practice Islam themselves (though I might be wrong) that the Quran can be used for peace AND war. Thus the dilemma with religions of old doctrines ... Even though Islam isn't that old if I'm not mistaking
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    People arn't angry with Islam.
    Yes, people ARE angry with Islam, and Christianity and any other cult that demands childhood indoctrination as the preferred and working method of recruitment. This vicious cycle of abuse has millions of people enslaved into an ideology of myth and superstition in which the irrational and improbable are reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    People arn't angry with Islam.
    Yes, people ARE angry with Islam, and Christianity and any other cult that demands childhood indoctrination as the preferred and working method of recruitment. This vicious cycle of abuse has millions of people enslaved into an ideology of myth and superstition in which the irrational and improbable are reality.
    I agree with Q on this one. However, I am quite sure that the only possible solution to this is just time. Frankly children are not just clay in their parents hands to make of what they will, and quite often the more that parents try to force them the more they will rebel. Children will put their own interests first and will compare what their parents are feeding them with what seems to work in the world. So I believe that time will prove this out. The only danger is the tendency to go from one extreme to another and that the Christian indoctrinating parent will have children who become an atheist indoctrinating parent.

    I am a Christian but not as a product of any kind of indoctrination and I certainly do NOT believe in using this. I believe that religion is utterly meaningless unless it is a product of ones own personal search for truth. Indoctrination without choice can only produce the shallowest members of a religion without any real conviction or depth of understanding, and can quite possibly make religion a manifestation of neurosis in their lives -- so that they can only be freed from their psychological problems by overthrowing this role of religion in their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    People arn't angry with Islam.
    Yes, people ARE angry with Islam, and Christianity and any other cult that demands childhood indoctrination as the preferred and working method of recruitment. This vicious cycle of abuse has millions of people enslaved into an ideology of myth and superstition in which the irrational and improbable are reality.
    People cannot get angry with an idea. They must get angry with those who formed the idea. If one spends his life focusing on this single idea, but not the creators and perpetrators of this idea, then it will get him nowhere.

    One can not be angry at ISLAM, because it's an idea. However, there is a HELL of a lot of people angry with the perpetrators of Islam.
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    In Islam no one but God has the rights to change his words.
    This may be true, yet it is people who God speaks through. There has never been an incident of God speaking for himself, God speaks only through intermediaries, such as prophets, man-gods, priests, imams etc. It is up to the individual human to decide whether or not whoever is claiming to be speaking on behalf of God is the real deal or not.

    There are some Muslim extremists with their ignorance pick up certain Quranic verses to justify their Killings and it is absolutely wrong. May be that verse was not intended for that.
    I certainly hope that you do not think that Muslim extremists are ignorant of what it means to be a Muslim. Your average terrorist is a reasonably educated, materially comfortable individual who has read the Qur'an thoroughly. Just because their interpretation of the Qur'an differs from yours does not make them ignorant.


    The second cause is rather apparent in numerous stories from around the world and this is that members of Islam seem far more ready to resort to violence when they perceive that their religion is insulted or threatened.
    Yes, it kinda reminds you of say Christianity during the inquisition. :P

    The thing with Christianity is it depends on what doctrines you hold. If you believe Jesus is the incarnation of God, and that the Old Testament is a historically reliable document, then Jesus is responsible for killing the first born sons of Eqyptians, for encouraging the Jews to commit genocide, for legislating that stoning is an acceptable form of capital punishment. This is because Jesus is God and God, according to the Old Testament did what I just mentioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen

    One can not be angry at ISLAM, because it's an idea. However, there is a HELL of a lot of people angry with the perpetrators of Islam.
    Yes, one can be angry at Islam. Nowhere in the definition of angry does is state implicitly one cannot be angry at an idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    So I believe that time will prove this out. The only danger is the tendency to go from one extreme to another and that the Christian indoctrinating parent will have children who become an atheist indoctrinating parent.
    How does one indoctrinate a child to be an atheist? Force them not to have their imaginations rule their worldview? Force them not to accept the improbable and irrational? Force them not to accept theists claims of the supernatural? Force them not to believe in an afterlife? Force them not to believe in fairy tales?

    I am a Christian but not as a product of any kind of indoctrination and I certainly do NOT believe in using this.
    So, your parents were NOT Christian? Were they Muslims? Jews? Atheists?

    I believe that religion is utterly meaningless unless it is a product of ones own personal search for truth.
    How does Christianity, a cult of the masses, become ones personal truth?

    Indoctrination without choice can only produce the shallowest members of a religion without any real conviction or depth of understanding, and can quite possibly make religion a manifestation of neurosis in their lives
    And yet, millions... nah, billions of people are indoctrinated into their cults. Many, if not all, will claim they're not indoctrinated. And of course, they would. No one would ever admit to being indoctrinated, especially if much of that occurred during their much forgotten childhood years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    :-D Quote me the verse. I will try to answer you or seek help from my muslim friends why this verse was revealed? i will explain the verse with the proper context. :wink:
    "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Quran, 4:34)

    It seems pretty clear.
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    At the begining i wanna say hi to all people who shared with this topic.
    Any way i want to share u in ur discussion. I wanna share not because i am muslim and wanna defend my religion. no something is higher than that actually.
    i am muslim woman not because my parents are muslims. i am really convinced with it. in other word it's a religion of truth to me. i believe that all of religions had just one aim and one purpose for which many prophets were sent. if u go back to the history of prophets u will see that the prophets found many difficulties and were hurt by their people. they didn't want to be kings or to gain money. most of them were poor and shepherds. they wanted to convey one message that there is only one God who should be alone worshipped.
    what is the profit of all religions??? it's to believe in one God who created u and he is the one who created all of things in this world... nothing happend suddenly...


    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I don't think too many people here are going to get too excited about joining a religion that teaches that people who leave should be killed.
    our religion does not force any body to convert to it. if any one wants to be a muslim. he has to be serious in his dicision. Allah said in quraan'' Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things'

    so no force in our religion. if you had a desire to convert to it that would be good for you and if u didn't want this would be up to u.
    i think we should be sure of our decision. if u read about it and believe in it as a true religion 100%with ur own accord, adult, sensible i think u wouldn't regret . emberacing islam is not akind of twiddle.if u feel that islam is not truth just for one persent don't covert to it..
    killing people who leave islam is not applied directly. there are alot of conditions and cases inorder to be applied.
    keep in ur mind that there are many bad acts that r considered sins and guilts but the the worst one is disbelief in god that god never forgives that..
    don't be surprised if i tell u that any thing except disbelieving in god and his oneness may be forgiven by god.
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    what is the profit of all religions??? it's to believe in one God who created u and he is the one who created all of things in this world... nothing happend suddenly...
    And yet God supposedly created everything instantly, whereas science teach us the universe has evolved in 13,7 billion years from the big bang. I also see no profit/benefit from believing something that is without logic and evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    killing people who leave islam is not applied directly. there are alot of conditions and cases inorder to be applied.
    Oh, great, I'm glad you carefully consider the "conditions and cases" when deciding whether or not to kill someone.

    Two simple scenarios:

    1) A sane adult male who was raised in Islam and has believed it all his life decides one day that he no longer believes, and announces his unbelief to everyone. He is adamant that he no longer believes, and refuses to reconsider. Since he no longer believes in Islam, he tries to convince others that it is false whenever they ask.

    2) A sane adult male who was not raised in Islam converts to Islam. After practicing for a year, he decides that he no longer believes in Islam and renounces it. He refuses to reconsider his decision and tells everyone about why he stopped believing in Islam.

    Do you think that either of these people should be killed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    How does one indoctrinate a child to be an atheist? Force them not to have their imaginations rule their worldview? Force them not to accept the improbable and irrational? Force them not to accept theists claims of the supernatural? Force them not to believe in an afterlife? Force them not to believe in fairy tales?
    Yep. That's indoctrination alright. Forcing them to see things as you do. Taking upon yourself the extreme arrogance of making their personal decisions for them. Making sure that they don't think in any of those "evil ways".


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    So, your parents were NOT Christian? Were they Muslims? Jews?
    No they were not Christian, nor pseudo-Christian, nor muslim, nor jew, nor buddhist, nor Sikh, nor Hindu, nor Zoastrian, nor Shinto. Did I miss any?



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Atheists?
    Well that may be a matter of opinion because you probably would not acknowledge them as true believers in your little cult. You see they never taught me that religion was evil.

    My father actually told me that he was an agnostic and I thought that meant he didn't know. It was only later that I learned that what he really meant was that he didn't think it mattered one way or another because even if God did exit, such a God had no importance and had nothing to do with the living of our lives.

    My mother never said, but made it quite clear that she never wanted anything to do with any church or organized religion.

    Both graduated in psychology and probably believed in that more than anything. Or as teachers, maybe it was education that they believed in most.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    How does Christianity, a cult of the masses, become ones personal truth?
    ears. brain. They work if you use them.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    And yet, millions... nah, billions of people are indoctrinated into their cults. Many, if not all, will claim they're not indoctrinated. And of course, they would. No one would ever admit to being indoctrinated, especially if much of that occurred during their much forgotten childhood years.
    Yeah that explains it... all these atheist that converted to Christianity must have been exposed when they were children. If their families were atheists then they must have been secretly "molested" by secret agents. Or maybe aliens use ray guns to project the religion directly into their brains.

    There seems to be more than one kind of fairy tale, going around.
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    Why would anyone be stupid enough to join a cult to save yourself from the god who wants to punish you if you don't?

    my god, why did u consider a one who agreed with the rules of islam a stupid.
    yea there r punishments for those who don't practise islam and those who do bad things such as stealing and killing. do u think that u would reward directly without doing good things and avoiding doing bad deeds.
    in islamic cocept there is a paradise that would be for those who deserves it. we try to be good and obey god's commands that r mentioned in quraan and prophet's sayings. imagin if there were no punishment would we do good things . simply we will be according to our desires and our desires r the things that lead us to our goals. nothing would control them.

    imagin ur self when you were at work if there was no rewards or punishment would u work hardly??
    would u work hardly if there were no punishments???i think u would not because u don't find any differences between good and bad...
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    In the natural world there is choice and there is consequence. We are all aware of them and therefore act accordingly to what best benfits us. No need for a skycop watching and judging what is right and what is wrong. Our morals evolved naturally without any divine help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    Why would anyone be stupid enough to join a cult to save yourself from the god who wants to punish you if you don't?

    my god, why did u consider a one who agreed with the rules of islam a stupid.
    yea there r punishments for those who don't practise islam and those who do bad things such as stealing and killing. do u think that u would reward directly without doing good things and avoiding doing bad deeds.
    in islamic cocept there is a paradise that would be for those who deserves it. we try to be good and obey god's commands that r mentioned in quraan and prophet's sayings. imagin if there were no punishment would we do good things . simply we will be according to our desires and our desires r the things that lead us to our goals. nothing would control them.

    imagin ur self when you were at work if there was no rewards or punishment would u work hardly??
    would u work hardly if there were no punishments???i think u would not because u don't find any differences between good and bad...
    Japan is over 60% atheist, but they don't seem to have any difficulty running a productive, well-behaved society.

    The fact that there are many, many atheists in the world who treat others well and live as happy, productive members of society is proof that humans don't need to be threatened or bribed with magical punishments and rewards.

    Seriously, did you even think about this argument at all before you posted it? The existence of countries with a very high fraction of atheists (in many cases, the majority of the population) empirically proves you wrong.

    But, hey, it's good to know that the only think keeping your particular society together is the threat of divine punishment. I think that really says a lot about your culture.
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  60. #59 Re: reply 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    what is the profit of all religions??? it's to believe in one God who created u and he is the one who created all of things in this world... nothing happend suddenly...
    And yet God supposedly created everything instantly, whereas science teach us the universe has evolved in 13,7 billion years from the big bang. I also see no profit/benefit from believing something that is without logic and evidence.
    ok u do not think that there is no God?? what have u said or what the scientist said about a big bang is not an evidence that there is no god. logically it's impossible that there is no creator for those milions of crators. every thing in this world is arranged perfectly. nothing in our life came suddenly or by nothing. there is someone who made it for us even the t-shir u r wearing it didn't come to u without a creator.
    who is stronger than us?? wind or sky?? why do only creators who have minds? why not animals or plants or mountains??
    we r just the creators who have minds to think and do many things whereas animals couldn't!!!!!!!!!!!!11
    do u think prophets were liars?? why did they convey that message to us??
    if they were liars why did not they want to have money?? why did not they teach us how to be good people???
    i think there is nothing wrong in their message!!! if they made all of these things up do u think liars would last longer in this life??
    by our nature we need someone stronger than us??? where could we find that
    if u believe that u r perfect `100% u can rely on what u think of!!!
    if u read the holy quraan u would see many scientificant fact that it was impossible for illiterate person could bring from his mind all of these things
    there is nothing wrong wrong in quraan... it was revealed for more than 1428 years and there is nothing wrong in it.. when i read it and read something that scientists approve it i am really wonderful for those who denies it .... do u think illiterate person from 1429 years could write that....
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    [quote="Scifor Refugee"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    killing people who leave islam is not applied directly. there are alot of conditions and cases inorder to be applied.
    Oh, great, I'm glad you carefully consider the "conditions and cases" when deciding whether or not to kill someone.


    yea what is the problem we have islamic law which we consider it as a perfect law...

    we don't have crime like what u have in ur societies ... our crimes r fewer than urs....what is the reason of that u think
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    u should talk about islam itself not people who misunderstand it and presente it wrongly
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    our crimes r fewer than urs....what is the reason of that u think
    Fear.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    killing people who leave islam is not applied directly. there are alot of conditions and cases inorder to be applied.
    Oh, great, I'm glad you carefully consider the "conditions and cases" when deciding whether or not to kill someone.

    Two simple scenarios:

    1) A sane adult male who was raised in Islam and has believed it all his life decides one day that he no longer believes, and announces his unbelief to everyone. He is adamant that he no longer believes, and refuses to reconsider. Since he no longer believes in Islam, he tries to convince others that it is false whenever they ask.

    2) A sane adult male who was not raised in Islam converts to Islam. After practicing for a year, he decides that he no longer believes in Islam and renounces it. He refuses to reconsider his decision and tells everyone about why he stopped believing in Islam.




    Do you think that either of these people should be killed?

    ok if u mane sane i would answer that both of them should have a chance to think deeply of what they have recently believed in but when they insist in their belief they should be killed according to islamic law..

    any way it rarely happens but u could see many of christian who r educated became muslims

    why the numbers of muslims have been increasing nowadays??
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    [quote="Obviously"]In the natural world there is choice and there is consequence. We are all aware of them and therefore act accordingly to what best benfits us. No need for a skycop watching and judging what is right and what is wrong. Our morals evolved naturally without any divine help.[/quote)

    wow my god

    congratulation man,
    u have perfect society then
    no stealing, no drugs,no raping.no murdering, no bad people in ur society
    u r great then. u always choose good and never choose bad acts...

    who told u about what is good and what is bad??? do u always do what right is for u?
    why do u want to be good?? what is the difference between bad and good according to ur mind?? do u think that humanbeing could be perfect one day??

    u r atheist right? if u found out there is God after ur death what would u do that time?? imagin that would happen to u 1%
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    if they r sane they havenot to be killed simply because they r sane. i think they should be sent to hospital..
    sane people r not usually asked for what they did in their life.. they r sane
    He means sane, as opposed to insane.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    logically it's impossible that there is no creator for those milions of crators. every thing in this world is arranged perfectly. nothing in our life came suddenly or by nothing.
    This logic is quite flawed. You assume the existence of God yet you can't explain him. If you assume complexity as a first cause of the universe, you'll only have an infinite loop of more and more complex explanations. "God was always there" simply isn't an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    In the natural world there is choice and there is consequence. We are all aware of them and therefore act accordingly to what best benfits us. No need for a skycop watching and judging what is right and what is wrong. Our morals evolved naturally without any divine help.
    wow my god

    congratulation man,
    u have perfect society then
    no stealing, no drugs,no raping.no murdering, no bad people in ur society
    u r great then. u always choose good and never choose bad acts...

    who told u about what is good and what is bad??? do u always do what right is for u?
    why do u want to be good?? what is the difference between bad and good according to ur mind?? do u think that humanbeing could be perfect one day??

    u r atheist right? if u found out there is God after ur death what would u do that time?? imagin that would happen to u 1%
    There is no conscious deed without benefit. Be it a feeling or reputation, there's always benefit. Good and bad is manmade concepts which apply for us only. We've evolved in groups, and it is the group which decides the moral code (what's good and what's not).

    Yes, I am indeed an atheist. And if I ever see God before my naked eye the day I die, I would have proof for his existence and would without a doubt believe in him. But for now, I can only but conclude that such a flawed concept is impossible, as it seems there is no explanation for God.
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  68. #67  
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    Responding to multiple folks at once...Sorry for the big post! :P

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Then, religions are far from perfect if so easily misinterpreted that leads to violence and oppression, hence should be discarded immediately for something easily interpreted that cannot lead to violence and oppression, don't ya think?
    Like....what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Christianity either, but at least the Christians seem open about what their church teaches.
    Of course they are. How could they not be open about what they have? They've burned and destroyed the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    They realize that telling people homosexuality/birth control/sex outside of marriage/whatever is wrong will make them unpopular, but at least they have the guts to be clear about where they stand.
    What!? Huh? Clear about where they stand? Where have you been? The Christian Community, the Catholics in particular, change their "stand" on a whim, and rarely make a solid confirmation on anything. If this is how a religion is to be determined, then Christianity gets the award for being fickle at best. Constantly changing what they say to keep from getting clobbered, and that's somehow supposed to be better than sticking to what you say?

    And isn't the religion supposed to be the guide, not the population it preaches to?

    A religion with integrity would, in my book, stand out better than one who changes its mind over lunch. If the religion says "THIS is the will of God and THIS is how it's going to be," then they should stick to that. If someone comes along and says "we don't like THIS," tough, too bad...that's not what we stand for.


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Why does your god wish to punish me if I have done no harm to him?
    The concept kinda goes like this: If you have children, and they don't do what you tell them to do, do you not punish them?

    Quote Originally Posted by DivideByZero
    It you really believe in Allah, if you really believe in God, then just keep quiet and worship your damn god. I don't care a bit of what you believe. These pathetic attempts to persuade us are worthless and, from time to time, very annoying.
    Get off my bandwidth!
    It's not YOUR bandwidth. Not to mention that this thread isn't affecting you at all, unless you decide to let it. You could have quietly ignored this whole thing, but you decided to get involved in it. You can whine all you want about self torment, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    And it very clearly says that women are inferior to men and that men should beat their wives if they are disobedient. Yes, clearly the work of a perfect, divine being.
    This is endemic of Islam alone? This is a concept completely alien to the non-Islamic world?

    Are you saying that if we get rid of all the Islamic people in America, there won't be any spouse abuse in America?

    Or maybe you're saying that Islam is the only collective to have parts of it that don't make sense?


    On another note, I wonder what the proportion of American Islamic followers, to Middle-Eastern Islamic followers, are spouse abusers? I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio was higher for the Middle-East...but that would be impossible, wouldn't it? Since everyone who follows Islam is exactly the same...

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    ...and any other cult that demands childhood indoctrination as the preferred and working method of recruitment. This vicious cycle of abuse has millions of people enslaved into an ideology of myth and superstition in which the irrational and improbable are reality.
    You know, this "problem" has been repeated several times, and I gotta say: WTF? This is an argument?

    Who the hell said that I wanted to be an American? Just because I was flipn' BORN in America I'm an American? That I'm subjected to the ideals of America? I'm enslaved to the ideas of democracy and the American Empire, just because I was born here!

    I wish someone had asked me to give my informed opinion on the subject of my citizenship when I popped out at day one! WTF. Who the hell do my parents think they are? Trying to impose upon me their American ideals, just because they think it's good! Holy hell...I feel so betrayed!

    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    However, there is a HELL of a lot of people angry with the perpetrators of Islam.
    In defense of Islam, there are a HELL of a lot of STUPID people who have been mislead by CNN (for one) into believing all of Islam is evil. This is, of course, retarded (to use a quick word). Not every Islamic person has a bomb strapped to them, not every one of them is running around killing people, not every Islamic person is unfriendly to others, and their history is not so contrasted to that of Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flip McWho
    Your average terrorist is a reasonably educated, materially comfortable individual who has read the Qur'an thoroughly. Just because their interpretation of the Qur'an differs from yours does not make them ignorant.
    I've heard mixed reports on this. Some reports show that the majority of individuals involved in terrorist organizations are iliterate and poor, while others show the opposite.

    However, if we follow that concept, that the religious text is static, then is it the person, or the text, that causes the problem? Seems to me that if two people can both experience the same religious text, and go in two completely different directions, the text is not so much a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Yes, one can be angry at Islam. Nowhere in the definition of angry does is state implicitly one cannot be angry at an idea.
    Yeah, I suppose you could be angry at the word "terrorism" but being angry at the terrorists is better, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    Why would anyone be stupid enough to join a cult to save yourself from the god who wants to punish you if you don't?
    "Join us or die."

    It's a concept not tied to any one particular group or organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    In the natural world there is choice and there is consequence. We are all aware of them and therefore act accordingly to what best benfits us. No need for a skycop watching and judging what is right and what is wrong. Our morals evolved naturally without any divine help.
    I'm assuming by "devine help" you mean religion. So you're saying that if we let every child loose, without any guidance whatsoever, they will all reach the same moral standpoint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Japan is over 60% atheist, but they don't seem to have any difficulty running a productive, well-behaved society.
    Wow, could you have picked a worse example? The Japanese are very superstitious, and you'll find numerous religious being followed in practice by individuals, even if they don't personally believe in them. The Japanese are also not a very independent people. They do everything in mass. If one person does something, they all want to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    The fact that there are many, many atheists in the world who treat others well and live as happy, productive members of society is proof that humans don't need to be threatened or bribed with magical punishments and rewards.
    You missed condescending, rude, unfriendly, beligerant, and ignorant, but that's okay. I know those were getting in the way while you were setting the example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Seriously, did you even think about this argument at all before you posted it? The existence of countries with a very high fraction of atheists (in many cases, the majority of the population) empirically proves you wrong.
    Got any numbers on that? Because I can't seem to find any statistics showing that the Atheists have a "very high fraction" over 30%, let along 50%.

    In fact, the best number I could find was 16%, and that included agnostics and people who left the "religion" field blank in surveys.

    Where exactly is this overwhelming majority of people who are atheists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    But, hey, it's good to know that the only think keeping your particular society together is the threat of divine punishment. I think that really says a lot about your culture.
    Such a statement can't be applied to anything else that's social. There's never been anyone threatened with punishment for going against anything except religious things.

    But then again, since we seem to once again be putting all religious people in the same stereotype, making them all exactly the same, with the same dispositions, beliefs, crimes and behaviors...seems to be sticking around longer than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Oh, great, I'm glad you carefully consider the "conditions and cases" when deciding whether or not to kill someone.
    Stupid religions! Deciding the rules of how to govern people's lives! Bah! Such notions of "rules" and "punishment" don't exist anywhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Do you think that either of these people should be killed?
    I wonder if the original text (if such a thing existed) actually said "kill?" Maybe "should be killed" is just another cultural/social change applied during the numerous renditions, same as with any other religious text? Maybe at one time is said something like "should be banished" and over the centuries, for various reasons, that line got changed (conveniently) to "should be killed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    if u want to say something about islam u should talk about it itself not people who present it in a wrong way...
    What is the "wrong way?" What makes YOUR viewpoint better than that of anothers?

    Although I agree with you about not letting a few nutcases determine the overall opinion of something, if we do take Islam at face value, we run into the same arguments we're having here. People have pointed out chapters that say "beat women" and those people are against that. At face value, as Islam studied itself, there's problems...

    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    we don't have crime like what u have in ur societies ... our crimes r fewer than urs....what is the reason of that u think
    Boy, you like opening cans of worms, don't you? That's okay, I like worms. There wouldn't be much to talk about otherwise...

    First, when you say there are "fewer" crimes, you got some numbers to back that up?

    While you're at it, get me the number of suicide bombers who are Christian fundamentalists, and the number of bombers who are Islamic fundamentalists. I want to compare, as just a starter...
    Wolf
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    I'm assuming by "devine help" you mean religion. So you're saying that if we let every child loose, without any guidance whatsoever, they will all reach the same moral standpoint?
    I am sure that is not what he meant. Morals are something that developed over generations as a code to live by that best suit the society it originated in. They developed as a means of assuring survival as a matter of course. These mostly universal morals include all the obvious ones like most of the 10 commandments (excluding those relating to god). Are you a proponent of the view that no morals could exist without the direct or indirect influence of religion?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    killing people who leave islam is not applied directly. there are alot of conditions and cases inorder to be applied.
    Oh, great, I'm glad you carefully consider the "conditions and cases" when deciding whether or not to kill someone.

    Two simple scenarios:

    1) A sane adult male who was raised in Islam and has believed it all his life decides one day that he no longer believes, and announces his unbelief to everyone. He is adamant that he no longer believes, and refuses to reconsider. Since he no longer believes in Islam, he tries to convince others that it is false whenever they ask.

    2) A sane adult male who was not raised in Islam converts to Islam. After practicing for a year, he decides that he no longer believes in Islam and renounces it. He refuses to reconsider his decision and tells everyone about why he stopped believing in Islam.

    Do you think that either of these people should be killed?
    No. They should be reprimanded. Killing is not the solution of everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    :-D Quote me the verse. I will try to answer you or seek help from my muslim friends why this verse was revealed? i will explain the verse with the proper context. :wink:
    "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Quran, 4:34)

    It seems pretty clear.
    Dear scifor Refugee,

    Thanks for Quoting the verse. As promised before, I will try to explain you the verse after I get reply from my friends. Please be patient.

    :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Are you a proponent of the view that no morals could exist without the direct or indirect influence of religion?
    No, I'm a proponent of the idea that not every "findable" moral is correct, and that waiting for each individual to discover the correct morals on their own is not ideal.

    Is there no value in teaching morals? Or do we let everyone bounce around and hope they eventually get it right? And what is right?

    Further, when you bring in the aspect of a creator or a purpose, what is the effect on the discovery of those morals? When a person comes to a new country, is it best for them to just run around doing whatever until they figure out all the ins and outs of that country's laws? Probably not. So if someone's entering a divine understanding, should there not also be a forwarded guideline of the expectations?

    Unfortunately, just like judicial laws, aspects of religions are subject to interpretation and the benefit of the authority. :?

    As for your original question, what if in this free society where people bounce around finding morals, there are huge collections of morals, some of which work, and some of which don't. Are there not groups of morals that are defined as 'correct' and pushed upon people, in an attempt to bring stability to the society?
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    Is there no value in teaching morals? Or do we let everyone bounce around and hope they eventually get it right? And what is right?
    What I meant, was that morals can develop and be taught to new generations without the need for religion. I suggested that these moral codes are something that constantly undergoes evolution in a real sense within a society. As to knowing which are the absolutely correct ones (a bigger problem in today's world); that is a tricky problem. Perhaps we could start a separate thread later on for examining some common ones and see what we can agree on?
    if someone's entering a divine understanding, should there not also be a forwarded guideline of the expectations?
    It would be a natural and expected thing. But I am not at issue with that. I am suggesting that religion (the say-so of a deity) is not required for the health and efficacy of a moral code.
    As for your original question, what if in this free society where people bounce around finding morals, there are huge collections of morals, some of which work, and some of which don't. Are there not groups of morals that are defined as 'correct' and pushed upon people, in an attempt to bring stability to the society?
    Sure, but with religion, a MAJOR problem is the interpretive qualities of the norms and morals expressed in the various texts. Our basic morals (not related to a deity) evolved in relatively small groups of people where they could be dynamically shaped to exactly fit each group without any ambiguity. With the larger societies we see today, it is unavoidable for some encompassing morals to miss the mark in smaller groups. One bad consequence of religions is that leaders have stronger tools with which to influence the behaviour of their subjects, namely the threat of eternal hellfire and the imposed authority of a deity whose assigned standards can be shaped by the religious leaders to suit their needs. Granted, secular leaders can do the same with their codes, but religions appeal directly and exclusively to the emotional side of its subjects and in that way can induce devotion to any cause they wish to advance, while claiming the inerrant Word of God as its source.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    In the natural world there is choice and there is consequence. We are all aware of them and therefore act accordingly to what best benfits us. No need for a skycop watching and judging what is right and what is wrong. Our morals evolved naturally without any divine help.
    I'm assuming by "devine help" you mean religion. So you're saying that if we let every child loose, without any guidance whatsoever, they will all reach the same moral standpoint?
    Your assumption is wrong :wink: In religion, a revelation from God is written down, and the current norm of moral codes at the time is written, thus that moral code survives many generation (because of faith) and one day... It is outdated by its homophobic, violent and immoral scripture, all open for "interpitation" even though we all know it's based upon the norm at the time it was written.

    A policeman in the sky who threaten us with eternal pain just for not believing in him, is not a moral figure. It is a vengeful being who punish people for something as little as working on the sabbath. A powersick and selfrighteous dictator, who anyone can say "supports me (according to scripture, etc), thus I'm righteous".

    As for letting children "loose". In the natural world they are raised. They teach the current moral standpoint, and from there they presumably develop a new one, thus progress. Religion stops progression and let us live in the past. "Think for yourself" is what has presumably gotten us this far.
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    Dear Scifor Refugee,

    Please follow the link for your query about wife beating in Islam. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1123996016760


    Dear Rationalist,


    Sorry for the delay, i have asked your question in a Forum and someone replied me as followed.


    http://www.forumofislam.com/index.php?showtopic=9289

    See post # 6 for my Question about Interpretation of Quranic verse and Post # 8 for its answer.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    yea what is the problem we have islamic law which we consider it as a perfect law...

    we don't have crime like what u have in ur societies ... our crimes r fewer than urs....what is the reason of that u think
    Ah yes, so now I see....

    All you have to do is kill of all the non-muslims and the whole world will have a lot less crime.



    I am afraid it is all a matter of definitons and the selective filtering of information. You don't have to count the places where there is a lot of crime because that's "not really muslim". Furthermore, its not crime when the oppression and violence is an institution of society. Finally, of course, you are going to ignore all the other contributing sociological factors and give all the credit to Islam.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Japan is over 60% atheist, but they don't seem to have any difficulty running a productive, well-behaved society.

    The fact that there are many, many atheists in the world who treat others well and live as happy, productive members of society is proof that humans don't need to be threatened or bribed with magical punishments and rewards.

    Seriously, did you even think about this argument at all before you posted it? The existence of countries with a very high fraction of atheists (in many cases, the majority of the population) empirically proves you wrong.

    But, hey, it's good to know that the only think keeping your particular society together is the threat of divine punishment. I think that really says a lot about your culture.

    Did you know the suicide rate of Japan? Read it here http://www.atimes.com/japan-econ/AH04Dh01.html

    Japan is in the highest rank for Suicide act? is it harmful for others. Yes it is
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    Ever thought why? Japan is known for the samurai, wherein seppuku has been a long tradition. Kamikaze has been used as a military tactic, I dunno if it's still being used.

    I searched: suicide religious japan, also suicide atheism japan, in google and things like this turned up:

    Quote Originally Posted by alertnet.org
    Experts say the economic slump over the past decade, combined with the absence of religious prohibition against suicide have resulted in the high number of people taking their own lives.

    Traditionally, suicide has also been a way to escape failure or save loved ones from embarrassment or financial loss.

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/T187539.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by eric.ed.gov
    Reports instance of mass suicide committed by seven members of local religious cult following leader's death in Japan in November 1986. Case is discussed from following viewpoints: (1) Japanese feudal form of suicide called Junshi; (2) religion and current social changes in Japanese society; and (3) destructive aspects of a cult. (Author)

    http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal...accno=EJ403562
    In conclusion... There's no correlation between atheim and suicide.
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    Here's a list where Japan is ranked #9 in suicide rates:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Yep. That's indoctrination alright. Forcing them to see things as you do. Taking upon yourself the extreme arrogance of making their personal decisions for them. Making sure that they don't think in any of those "evil ways".
    Then, it's a good thing to educate children in all aspects of myth and superstitions that they may decide for themselves.

    Thinking in "evil ways" is a religious concept and has no meaning.

    Both graduated in psychology and probably believed in that more than anything. Or as teachers, maybe it was education that they believed in most.
    You've also claimed to be a physicist, which I've started to think is complete fabrication, so I'm sure if I can believe that either.

    ears. brain. They work if you use them.
    So, you're not using your brain, why?

    Yeah that explains it... all these atheist that converted to Christianity must have been exposed when they were children. If their families were atheists then they must have been secretly "molested" by secret agents. Or maybe aliens use ray guns to project the religion directly into their brains.
    There's that rock solid physicist's argument again, using aliens to make a point. Atheists converting to Christianity?

    There seems to be more than one kind of fairy tale, going around.
    There are several, but one must ask why you chose the one you did and not another?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Like....what?
    Education.

    The concept kinda goes like this: If you have children, and they don't do what you tell them to do, do you not punish them?
    No.

    Who the hell said that I wanted to be an American? Just because I was flipn' BORN in America I'm an American? That I'm subjected to the ideals of America? I'm enslaved to the ideas of democracy and the American Empire, just because I was born here!
    Either, you don't know the definition of indoctrination or you're being silly?

    Yeah, I suppose you could be angry at the word "terrorism" but being angry at the terrorists is better, don't you think?
    No, I don't. Why would you?
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  82. #81 Re: reply 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    [
    Ah yes, so now I see....

    All you have to do is kill of all the non-muslims and the whole world will have a lot less crime.


    as i said u should differentiate between islam and what muslims do. some of them present islam wrongly.
    even though, make a comparison between how many people are killed by muslims and how many iraqies, palestinians,afganistanians were killed???

    any way whether u agree with me or not the numbers of muslims have been encreasing. millions of people from all over the world have been embracing islam
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    No.
    Then you are an exceptional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    ok if u mane sane i would answer that both of them should have a chance to think deeply of what they have recently believed in but when they insist in their belief they should be killed according to islamic law..

    any way it rarely happens but u could see many of christian who r educated became muslims

    why the numbers of muslims have been increasing nowadays??
    Welcome to a tea-party with Hitler, Some of the Popes in Mideaval times, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and all the others. They also thought killing someone for thinking differently is quite allright.


    Ummmmmmmm makafill....do you always have to ask someone for their oppinion before you give an answer? This is one thing I am really proud of, thinking for myself and drawing conclusions.
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    quote]

    They also thought killing someone for thinking differently is quite allright.

    .[/quote]

    islam isn't with killers
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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  86. #85 Re: reply 
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    [quote

    Ummmmmmmm makafill....do you always have to ask someone for their oppinion before you give an answer? This is one thing I am really proud of, thinking for myself and drawing conclusions.[/quote]

    what is wrong in that i want ur opinion in that. it's not a question. it's fact though
    Do what you want with what you have..........
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Then, it's a good thing to educate children in all aspects of myth and superstitions that they may decide for themselves.
    So does this mean that you are an advocate of relgious education or atheist indoctrination?


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Thinking in "evil ways" is a religious concept and has no meaning.
    "Evil" is a common word in the English language with many non-religious meanings like "tending to cause great harm". But of course, next thing you will be saying is that "word" is a religious concept that has no meaning, not mention that "meaning" is a religious concept that has no meaning. Oh wait a minute, you used that word. You really ought to stop all that superstitious nonsense, you know.


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Both graduated in psychology and probably believed in that more than anything. Or as teachers, maybe it was education that they believed in most.
    You've also claimed to be a physicist, which I've started to think is complete fabrication, so I'm sure if I can believe that either.
    Cool....

    I want to thank you.

    This is a wonderful gift from you to me. A delightful example of an atheist who simply refuses to believe anything that contradicts his own personal philosophy -- an amazing example of how people can alter there perceptions of the world to such a degree, that they can make themself blind to the existence of all the scientists throughout history who have been Christians and muslims and Hindus. In fact, this is really so amazing I really want to do some research on this phenomenon. Surely psychologists have studied how religious and atheist idealogues do this sort of thing.

    But I want to assure all the other atheists in the forum that they are not to worry, I most certainly will not use this example inappropriately. I know that atheists can be very intellegent and realistic people from personal acquaintences I have had. Not only fellow graduate physics students and physics post-docs I have worked with, but some other posters on this forum that I have come to respect too.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    So, you're not using your brain, why?
    OH.... not like you I am sure!

    ...why how you can use your brain like that ...

    Its... amazing!

    But really I don't think I can do that.

    You know...,

    uh.... some of those things actually cause brain damage.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Atheists converting to Christianity?
    So you really think that atheists have never converted to Christianity?

    Wow.....

    That is so cool.


    You have just blown away so many of my misconceptions.

    Thank you.

    I must admit that I have tended to think that atheists were generally pretty level headed and good at facing up to the realities of the world ......oh..... don't get me wrong... I still think .... well at least most of the atheist I have met personally were like that so, of course, just one person doesn't change that opinion completely.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Dear scifor Refugee,

    Thanks for Quoting the verse. As promised before, I will try to explain you the verse after I get reply from my friends. Please be patient.
    AND

    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Dear scifor Refugee

    Please follow the link for your query about wife beating in Islam.
    AND

    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Dear Rationalist,

    Sorry for the delay, i have asked your question in a Forum and someone replied me as followed
    This is what I was referring to. When I ask someone for their thoughts about a certain topic I was thinking along the lines: "Dear blablabla, I think you are wrong/right for the following reasons: a.)........b.) ..and furthermore c.).......I have come to this conclusions based on these facts....blalbalbla and yadayaddayaddayadda"

    I do likewise if I have a strong oppinion about a topic discussed in a thread. Some people consider my style a little acerbic from time to time but I am willing to defend my oppinion based on the facts and information I have at hand and if someone has other facts or more information I am willing to re-think (well, not in all cases but still....)

    I do not care what someone else in another forum thinks or about their friend's considerations about beating women. I asked about mkafil's oppinion, but I did get ....nada, nix, null, niente.

    For example: Islamgirl thinks killing people for thinking differently is absolutely O.K. and condoned by the supernatural beeing she thinks is the yardstick for her everyday life. This is something I can reply to and tell them that this is disgusting and in no way, shape or form differs from the persons I mentined in my above post. I base this on the old quid-pro-quo or tit-fot-tat or "I do not want to be killed for thinking differently" And I assume that 99.9999999% of all mankind finds that this holds true as well. They also do not want to be killed for thinking differently because they like to live and pursue their own happyness. So forcing my will on other people and at the same time being convinced that I am better than you or that my god is holier than your god leads to known results.


    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    what is wrong in that i want ur opinion in that. it's not a question. it's fact though
    Missa thinks yousiiree musta learny howto missir answer, notty??
    Obviously you did not get my point. And what the hell is fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    islam isn't with killers
    So you think that Islamgirl is not a muslima? Please discuss.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    The concept kinda goes like this: If you have children, and they don't do what you tell them to do, do you not punish them?
    No.
    Then you are an exceptional.
    No, I think the point is that you are talking to a child not a parent.



    Jesus tells us to be like child, but some of us are more successful at this than others..... and of course not all of us are parents. The parenting experience brings about a reality shift that some people cannot imagine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    [quote

    Ummmmmmmm makafill....do you always have to ask someone for their oppinion before you give an answer? This is one thing I am really proud of, thinking for myself and drawing conclusions.
    Good and keep it up. As for me, I don't like to throw my opinion if i don't have any clear picture of things. Because the issue of Islam was raised, I wanted to contribute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    So does this mean that you are an advocate of relgious education or atheist indoctrination?
    Both terms are oxymoron's, unless you actually believe one can be educated in fairy tales.

    “How can we ever know how many children had their psychological and physical lives irreparably maimed by the compulsory inculcation of faith? Religion has always hoped to practice upon the unformed and undefended minds of the young. If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in a quite different world.” Christopher Hitchens ~ "God Is Not Great"

    “Atheism is not a philosophy. It is not even a view of the world. It is simply an admission of the obvious….Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.” Sam Harris

    "The objective of science education is not to provide the public with knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, science, as the only begetter of truth.” Richard Lewontin

    "Evil" is a common word in the English language with many non-religious meanings like "tending to cause great harm". But of course, next thing you will be saying is that "word" is a religious concept that has no meaning, not mention that "meaning" is a religious concept that has no meaning. Oh wait a minute, you used that word. You really ought to stop all that superstitious nonsense, you know.
    The word is derived from religious fairy tales, Christianity, in fact, where your cult ascribes evil to the misdeeds of humans who your sky daddy has granted free will. No meaning in nature, whatsoever.

    the existence of all the scientists throughout history who have been Christians and muslims and Hindus.
    As a Christian, I'm sure you'll find clear connections of how their gods came to provide them with their discoveries. Can you?

    At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if you were once a Moonie. You seem to have an affectation towards cults.

    uh.... some of those things actually cause brain damage.
    You've made that quite evident. Thanks.

    So you really think that atheists have never converted to Christianity?
    I don't recall that many, if any, who have completely lost their faculties and joined a cult. It certainly would be a rare find. That might be an excellent polled thread.

    Perhaps you are one of those rare birds who did lose their faculties, if you claim to not have been indoctrinated by your parents. Did you join the cults for love, a woman, perhaps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    No, I think the point is that you are talking to a child not a parent.

    Jesus tells us to be like child, but some of us are more successful at this than others..... and of course not all of us are parents. The parenting experience brings about a reality shift that some people cannot imagine.
    Your sky "parent" punishes you if you don't do what he tells you.

    No similarities there, of course. Hence, it MUST be a 'reality shift' one MUST imagine.
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  93. #92 Re: reply 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Good and keep it up. As for me, I don't like to throw my opinion if i don't have any clear picture of things. Because the issue of Islam was raised, I wanted to contribute.
    Yes I will. And my oppinion (without having to ask my friend, my brother, another engineer/scientist, the guy next door) about beating women that are "disobedient" - whatever this means in the first place e.g. do women in the islam do not have the right to their own oppinion even if it differs from the oppinion of their husband? - is[takes deep breath and tries to be as patient as always]: Any man who thinks that it is necessary to abuse his wife/girlfriend/significant other is a disgusting dickhead with no brains and no morals whatsoever. I would not piss on such a person even if he was on fire. Period. How hard was that?
    And the issue at hand was that scifor refugee stated that the islam condones kicking the shit out of your wife. You asked for a quote and SR gave it to you. Whereas you wanted to have the oppinion of someone else before you wanted to answer. And then you come up with that lame link to some other website. So you give me the impression that you do not want to think for yourself or have an oppinion on the simple question of domestic violence.

    Or to put it more clearly: Do you or do you not agree with the Qu'ran that it is O.K. to beat up your wife (as cited by SR from The Holy Book of Islam). No lookin it up in some other forum or asking whomever. Shoot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    So does this mean that you are an advocate of relgious education or atheist indoctrination?
    Both terms are oxymoron's
    Very interesting. So according to you, indoctrination is not about method but about content. No doubt you have similar view of science.

    You remind me of the Creationists and their pseudo-science, who cannot tell the difference between science and rhetoric, because they don't understand that science is all about methodology. I have encountered atheists, like you, who cannot grasp this distinction either. They had the absurd notion that just being atheist made them a scientist. You seem to suffer from this confusion also.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    unless you actually believe one can be educated in fairy tales.
    Yep. Those pesky facts you know.

    "However, modern scholars of fairy tales have diverged from this position. Instead, they note that no one version of a fairy tale can be considered as a normative rendition." quoted from Russian Fairy Tales, Part I, The Fantastic Traditions of the East and West, by Helen Pilinovsky



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    The word is derived from religious fairy tales, Christianity, in fact, where your cult ascribes evil to the misdeeds of humans who your sky daddy has granted free will. No meaning in nature, whatsoever.
    So you are into dictionary censorship. Any words you deem are derived from fairy tales are not on your approved list?



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    an amazing example of how people can alter there perceptions of the world to such a degree, that they can make themself blind to the existence of all the scientists throughout history who have been Christians and muslims and Hindus.
    As a Christian, I'm sure you'll find clear connections of how their gods came to provide them with their discoveries. Can you?
    ???
    Perhaps they might have stories of this sort if you query them, but you will have to ask them yourself if that sort of thing interests you.

    I have never been interested in that. It is the scientific method by which they come to their conclusions that signify when evaluating the merit of their discoveries. Not that you would know anything about that.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Perhaps you are one of those rare birds who did lose their faculties,
    We shall all lose our faculties eventually - it is a univeral human destiny. But it is better to have had faculties and lost them than to have never had them at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    if you claim to not have been indoctrinated by your parents.
    Yes senility does affect so many human beings. Thus perhaps it is not your fault that you cannot seem to remember that I have in fact just recently made the claim that I was not indoctrinated by my parents.



    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Did you join the cults for love, a woman, perhaps?
    Ahh... the madness of love... No, I did not.

    I had a crush on a Mormon girl in high school, but it wasn't enough to push me over that particular ledge. LOL
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    Mitchell and (Q), I am offline shortly, then off half way round the world. Can we be nice to each other, so that when I log on in a day or two I do not find a flamefest has erupted. Both of you are getting rather close to the line.
    Thank you in advance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twaaannnggg
    Quote Originally Posted by mkafil
    Good and keep it up. As for me, I don't like to throw my opinion if i don't have any clear picture of things. Because the issue of Islam was raised, I wanted to contribute.
    Yes I will. And my oppinion (without having to ask my friend, my brother, another engineer/scientist, the guy next door) about beating women that are "disobedient" - whatever this means in the first place e.g. do women in the islam do not have the right to their own oppinion even if it differs from the oppinion of their husband? - is[takes deep breath and tries to be as patient as always]: Any man who thinks that it is necessary to abuse his wife/girlfriend/significant other is a disgusting dickhead with no brains and no morals whatsoever. I would not piss on such a person even if he was on fire. Period. How hard was that?
    And the issue at hand was that scifor refugee stated that the islam condones kicking the shit out of your wife. You asked for a quote and SR gave it to you. Whereas you wanted to have the oppinion of someone else before you wanted to answer. And then you come up with that lame link to some other website. So you give me the impression that you do not want to think for yourself or have an oppinion on the simple question of domestic violence.

    Or to put it more clearly: Do you or do you not agree with the Qu'ran that it is O.K. to beat up your wife (as cited by SR from The Holy Book of Islam). No lookin it up in some other forum or asking whomever. Shoot.
    Shelve your lame excuses outside Your brain. I have posted link for that topic and JUST REFER TO THAT DAMN THING. I never encountered a Muslim beating their wives. Its kinda funny u guys come out with such moronic accusations. If you ask do i have my opinion for that? Yeah, "I agree with everything inside the link." Its not a piece of cake, u cut and then u eat. Its God's word. So when People like me say Its a God word then you know, what you should do? Read every single thing carefully, Don't be quick coz you'll miss some important points. If you say hell man u got not enough time. Then LEAVE IT. ciao
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Mitchell and (Q), I am offline shortly, then off half way round the world. Can we be nice to each other, so that when I log on in a day or two I do not find a flamefest has erupted. Both of you are getting rather close to the line.
    Thank you in advance.
    The contest is to see who gets pushed over the line first. Hee hee.

    But I am interested, in light of the rest of this thread, in just how you define this line you refer to, for it is difficult for me to imagine a line that hasn't already been thouroughly trampled already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Are you saying that if we get rid of all the Islamic people in America, there won't be any spouse abuse in America?

    Or maybe you're saying that Islam is the only collective to have parts of it that don't make sense?
    Where the f*ck are you getting this? My post was a direct response to mkafil, who claimed that the Koran was the "perfect" word of god. I was refuting his claim of the Koran’s perfection by throwing that rather glaring imperfection in his face. Did you see anything in my post implying that eradicating Islam would end spouce abuse or that Islam is the only collective to have parts that doesn't make sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeer
    as i said u should differentiate between islam and what muslims do. some of them present islam wrongly.
    Hilarious - the guy who just a few posts ago said
    but when they insist in their belief they should be killed according to islamic law..
    in answer to a question about what Muslims should do about people who want to leave Islam is worried about how someone might "present Islam wrongly". Which, hey, I can totally understand. You wouldn't want people to get the mistaken impression that you were trying to live in the dark ages...
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    First,

    Islam is the fastest growing religion because Islamic societies are experiencing a fast birth rate. Babies born into islamic societies equals more Muslims.

    Apparently, if the book I'm currently reading (The Divinity Code by Ian Wishart) is accurate, Christianity is the religion experiencing the fastest growing number of conversions.



    Secondly, Wolf:
    I've heard mixed reports on this. Some reports show that the majority of individuals involved in terrorist organizations are iliterate and poor, while others show the opposite.

    However, if we follow that concept, that the religious text is static, then is it the person, or the text, that causes the problem? Seems to me that if two people can both experience the same religious text, and go in two completely different directions, the text is not so much a factor.
    For my part I'm repeating what I got told in my Pyschology of Religion paper. If you wish it I'll track down the appropriate article or lecture slide and post it for you, however you'll have to wait a few days as I'm in the process of relocating to a new flat.
    I'd agree that the majority of people that support terrorist organisations are iliterate and poor but the people with the ideological conviction to carry out terrorist attacks I'm inclined to believe are educated and comfortable.

    I agree entirely with your second paragraph.





    (Q):

    Modern Christians do not believe in any supernatural realm populated with Angels, Devils and Demons and the such. From what I can understand (I'm an atheist looking in afterall) the only supernatural concerned here is the Trinity, with it understood as the personification of the order and complexity that is so readily observable in this universe. Though I don't understand the view on the eternal life aspect, the ontological nature of heaven so to speak.

    The word is derived from religious fairy tales, Christianity, in fact, where your cult ascribes evil to the misdeeds of humans who your sky daddy has granted free will. No meaning in nature, whatsoever.
    Evil, like all words in any language evolve acquired meanings over time. Evils connection with religion is through the word Sin, which is turning against/away from God, which was probably the worst thing you coulda done back in those highly religious days of the medieval and early modern eras. Evil today means doing something in such a manner or quantity that the words bad and illegal aren't sufficient to portray what happened. Such as with Hitler and Pol Pot for example.
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  101. #100  
    Forum Junior Twaaannnggg's Avatar
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    Whhhoooot..............

    Shelve your lame excuses outside Your brain. I have posted link for that topic and JUST REFER TO THAT DAMN THING. I never encountered a Muslim beating their wives. Its kinda funny u guys come out with such moronic accusations. If you ask do i have my opinion for that? Yeah, "I agree with everything inside the link." Its not a piece of cake, u cut and then u eat. Its God's word. So when People like me say Its a God word then you know, what you should do? Read every single thing carefully, Don't be quick coz you'll miss some important points. If you say hell man u got not enough time. Then LEAVE IT. ciao
    O.K. let's see how long you can keep evading the question I am asking.

    Let's start veery slowly. And you should heed your onw advice and read carefully. even if you never encountered a muslim beatin his wife, I have some sad news for you: happens everyday, all day long-
    I did not accuse any muslim in person to beat his wife. There is domestic violence in every society, whether they are christian, muslim, jewish, pastafarian or whatnot. So far, so clear?? Good.
    Next step: The qu'ran -like quoted by scifor refugee- emphasises that husbands have the godgiven right to beat their wifes. Can we agree on this?? O.K. Bear with me on this one, we'll get to the point soon.
    Next step: What is your personal - with personal I mean YOU, the person that has the nick "mkafil" - oppinion. Do you think this is O.K.? YES OR NO
    Is this so hard to understand??? I read everything careful and I think I understand: YOU DO think this is allright as you say this is the word of god. This is clear to me, but puleeeeezzzz.... pretty please with sugar and a chery on top: Do you think that beating your girlfriend when she disagrees with you is O.K.??? You only have to type two or three letters. I can make this even simpler for you and give you two possibilities to chose from:
    1.) "Yes, I totally agree because god said so and I think this is good thing" - then type "1" in your next post, without the "".
    2.) "No, I do not think beating the shit out of my wife/girlfriend/significant other is O.k. as this is unbecomming of a human beeing with a shred of self-respect" - then type"2" in your next post, without the ""





    And now to soemthing completely different.........
    I just bought a copy of the qu'ran. Funny stuff. There's a introduction by the guy who translated the book. It reads like some manual on "how to read the qu'ran and what not to do and what you have to do". The thing that really blew me away was the sentence: "in order to fully understand the qu'ran you have to resort to one of the many comments." Mhmmmmmmmm...so god wrote a manual, no THE manual and then in order to understand you have to resort to someone who interprets this to you so you are able to understand the meaning of the manual?? I mean, we are talking allmighty here. The dude who can change the fine structural constant of the universe by snapping his finger before breakfast. And then I have to believe I need someone to translate HIS word for me?? If someone in the technical documentation department in my company wrote such a crappy manual, he would be reprimanded seriously and sent back to sqaure 1.

    On a lighter side....I bet you 10 bucks that I do not get a clear answer from you. I have a PayPAl account, so getting the bucks to you is no problem. If you prefer € instead, no problem, 10 € it is then. Just type in "1" or "2"
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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