Thread: Why God does not live with us anymore

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only veiw God but they could talk to God directly . Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden . From there God's communication with man was in the form of men hearing his voice but not seeing God directly . Abrahams communication with God , and Moses and the burning bush is an example of this hearing and not seeing , and in the Exodus man again lets God down . From there Man never heard God again , God's communication with Man forthwith was through Prophets such as Daniel and Ezekiel . Yet Man true to his corrupt self , listened to the false prophets rather than the prophets annointed by God .

Then God as a final act sent Mankind his only son , Jesus the Messiah , his flesh and blood , and we murdered Jesus to protect out material greed over eternal salvation . Since that day God has not lived with us , God has left man to himself , and Mans own hatred will consume Mankind . That is why God no longer lives amonst us .

Brian,

That is perhaps one variation of Christian mythology.

The "murder" variation sounds like a Catholic version.

Other Christians assert that their god is with them all the time, and others claim they converse with their god regularly.

But more objectively life has not changed significantly for many millenia. We know of no way to converse with gods of any type or even know whether gods are even possible. Certainly there is nothing around that indicates that gods might or have ever existed.

But it's nice fairy tale to scare small children.

you started your post with adam and eve,so I will pose a question and give you the answer, so you can better understand your god

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only view God but they could talk to God directly.

could you have a two way conversation with a one year old child, or a chimpanzee, a dog, or even a lion?
no of course not, they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden.

as they had the mind of a one year old, they could not have transgressed and understood the implications of it, until they had eaten of the fruit.
god placed a tree where there need be no tree and then coerced them into eating from it, if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.) as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

Compare to putting a bowl of 1000 skittles in your child's room. of course he's going to eat at least one hoping that you wouldn't notice the difference.

doesnt matter how much you adviced against it.

Brian Fooley: Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only veiw God but they could talk to God directly.
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M*W: What language did God, Adam and Eve speak?
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Brian Fooley: Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden.
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M*W: Why did God want to trick them? Where did they go when they got evicted?
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Brian Fooley: From there God's communication with man was in the form of men hearing his voice but not seeing God directly.
*************
M*W: Why was God hiding?
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Brian Fooley: Abrahams communication with God, and Moses and the burning bush is an example of this hearing and not seeing, and in the Exodus man again lets God down.
*************
M*W: Abraham practiced polytheism. He allegedly lived about 2,100 years before the time of Moses, who invented monotheism. There was no Exodus much less any burning bush or hearing a god speak. There may have not even been a Moses. In any case, you need to do some research.
*************
Brian Fooley: From there Man never heard God again, God's communication with Man forthwith was through Prophets such as Daniel and Ezekiel. Yet Man true to his corrupt self, listened to the false prophets rather than the prophets annointed by God.
*************
M*W: If there were a god, why would he allow false prophets to confuse people... oh, yeah, just like he put that tree in the Garden... to trick mankind.
*************
Brian Fooley: Then God as a final act sent Mankind his only son, Jesus the Messiah, his flesh and blood, and we murdered Jesus to protect out material greed over eternal salvation.
*************
M*W: Why would an all-loving creator have his only son murdered for us corrupt human beings? God knew how we were from our stint in the Garden, then about 5,000 years down the road he decides to save us, so he sacrifices his son. If god wanted us to not be corrupt, he would have created us more perfect. Further, being god, he could have fixed us without sacrificing anything.
*************
Brian Fooley: Since that day God has not lived with us, God has left man to himself, and Mans own hatred will consume Mankind. That is why God no longer lives amonst us.
*************
M*W: Wait a minute... earlier you said god hadn't been with man since the time of the Exodus. Now you say that it was when he murdered his own son that he hasn't lived among us. Which is it? Is god here or not? If he's not here, why are all those religions worshipping him? If he is still among us, why are all those human beings still worshipping their religions? If god is really here, why do we need religions? If god is here, why is he hiding?

Originally Posted by geezer

as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

I couldn't help chuckling at this. It would also make two and a half thousand years of Jewish and Christian theological thinking invalid as well! I don't think the doctrine of Original Sin is so susceptible to the argument that "God must have meant it that way anyway". Adam and Eve were told the consequences, so Free Will determined the outcome, and the outcome (inevitably) was that God was disobeyed. God could hardly have expected any different (although, being presumably a first-time Creator maybe he didn't realise that his Creation could actually turn on him like that), but Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey his injunction and not listen to the serpent.

Ironically, for the foundation stone of misogyny throughout the ages was part of the J text, and there is a theory that J was originally a woman.

Originally Posted by Silas

Originally Posted by geezer

as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

I couldn't help chuckling at this. It would also make two and a half thousand years of Jewish and Christian theological thinking invalid as well!

exactly, theres hope for them yet.

Originally Posted by Silas

I don't think the doctrine of Original Sin is so susceptible to the argument that "God must have meant it that way anyway". Adam and Eve were told the consequences,

maybe so but they had no understanding of the said consequencs( if I said to a chimp dont touch that banana or I'll spank you, as it had never been spanked it would not know it was wrong, or how a spank felt would it ( IE they had no knowledge of good or evil until after the ate of the fruit))

Originally Posted by Silas

so Free Will determined the outcome,

of course.

Originally Posted by Silas

and the outcome (inevitably) was that God was disobeyed.

no, because they had no understanding of good or evil, so would not know they were doing wrong until they ate of the fruit.

Originally Posted by Silas

God could hardly have expected any different (although, being presumably a first-time Creator maybe he didn't realise that his Creation could actually turn on him like that), but Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey his injunction and not listen to the serpent.

you dont seem to get it, do you,( the chimp could have chosen not to eat my banana, but he did) with no knowledge of right and wrong, they did'nt know that what they were doing was bad. regardless that god put a serpent there or not, it was just a long winded way of getting his wish.
god wanted it that way.

Geezer, excellent points. Can anyone dispute what he has said?

i think in the story of Adam and Eve you have forgotten something, it may sound silly to you, but it is true, and that is the existance of the Devil(or the evil self-you may call it).
Of course God knew they would eat the apple, but the point of putting such a temptation, was to show(by an experiment), what would happen in case you follow the devil or the evil self, thus begins the stories of prophets and religion. It was just a small example of what will happen all through the years.
You see in our world there exists lots of temptations and thus we are forced to choose, either control ourselves and refrain from it, or follow the dark side and surrender to it. Living in heaven would have never happened because of man's curiosity.

Concerning the issue of God living with us, i think he doesn't live with us because it is yet another test. It's the test of faith, to believe that a greater power exists from the proofs around you, or you don't believe.
It's after all your choice.

sina_marine,

who created the devil? I'm not sure I remember what the Bible says about it.

well, i don't know about the bible, but in Islam, God gathered the angels and asked them to bow infront of Adam, but one of the angels refused to do so, and so god expulled him from heaven to hell, and then the devil swore that he will make sure that people are misguided to follow the dark side. God said that only those who don't truelly believe will follow the devil.

hope it helped

Well, that's basically, almost word for word, the same thing the Bible in Christianity says, but I was wondering if you remembered where, in either the Koran or the Bible, they say anything about who actually created the devil. Or did the angels exist too, as did God, in the beginning? Just exist all by themselves, or did God create them?

God created angels to serve him and later humans.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

God created angels to serve him and later humans.

So we are not the only beings that Allah/God made mistakes with?

God didn't make mistakes, we make mistakes. If the devil was never to exist , what challenge would exist for us humans. Life would be one monotonous wavelength. There wouldn't be any life. Life is about facing problems and getting through it. These problems presented by God to test our faith. The devil's intent is to make us vulnerable and weak. To make us of a weak will, and trigger the evil-self in humans. He doesn't materialize just like angels , but we can feel his effect.

Do you believe God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.?

i believe he his all three.
He's omnipotent because he can make anything happen and this is proven since Adam was created through the stories of Prophets.

He's omnipresent because(my own belief) he exists in everything you see, whether man-made or natural. In Islam, God told us to Meditate and wonder and think about everything around us. To feel his presence in a drop of water and his power in the great mountains.

He's Omniscetent , because there could be a millions of prayers said each day, and God would answer them all. Also, if he's always present then he's always knowing. It's like an equation.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

i think in the story of Adam and Eve you have forgotten something, it may sound silly to you, but it is true, and that is the existance of the Devil(or the evil self-you may call it).
Of course God knew they would eat the apple, but the point of putting such a temptation, was to show(by an experiment), what would happen in case you follow the devil or the evil self,

have you actually read my posts it irrelevant whether the devil was there or not if god new they would eat the apple then he must of wanted evil in the world, as they had no understanding of evil then they would not know the the devil was evil would they. or god was good for that matter, they infact would not know the difference, whether they followed the devil or god is irrelevant also, they did not know they were doing wrong, now did they.
you cannot ask a child not to do something with out first giving them the knowledge of good or bad, so they can then understand right from wrong.
so the only conclusion is god put evil into the world. therefore no original sin. no need to kill millions in a flood no need to aledgedly kill your own son, god therfore does not exist, plain and simple.

They were warned. God told them that they could enjoy anything in heaven except that apple tree. Imagine the most beautiful place on earth with the greatest givings and you won't be close to heaven. No one can. Anyhow, they had millions of things to enjoy better than the apple tree, but they chose to eat it after the devil (evil-self) nudged them to it. Anyway, by their own free will the chose to disobey God, and just like a child(assuming that adam and eve don't have any kind of distinction), disobeying his mother, they must have felt that they are doing something wrong. even if you don't have a distinction between right or wrong, if you do something that you aren't supposed to do in the first place, you have to do it when no one is looking. This means you are hiding, which means that you are wrong.
The point is they chose it with their own free will, God didn't tell them to follow evil, He gave them the choice. He put them to the test.That's all.
Life is but a series of tests.
I would also like to remind you that God gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of this tree being forbidden.

I think you have misunderstood the difference between God knowing something is going to happen and it actually happening. God knows everything, yes. He knows how you react, how you will choose and everything else about you. He then puts you to the test, anykind of test. He knows how you will do, but he doesn't tell you to do that. We aren't programmed, we're given the choice. If we choose right, it's with our own free will, if we choose wrong it 's also with our own free will.
I hope you understand what i mean.

Evil being in the world ,isn't connected to God's existing.God existed before Evil. Evil was also a choice. A wrong choice by an angel.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

They were warned. God told them that they could enjoy anything in heaven except that apple tree.

but they had no understanding of the warning, did they, it had no more meaning to them than telling them not to pick there nose.
they had no knowledge of GOOD or EVIL/RIGHT or WRONG, it's quite a simple logic, it's not hard to grasp.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

Imagine the most beautiful place on earth with the greatest givings and you won't be close to heaven. No one can. Anyhow, they had millions of things to enjoy better than the apple tree, but they chose to eat it after the devil (evil-self) nudged them to it. Anyway, by their own free will the chose to disobey

no god put the serpent there, they were coerced by god and is minions to make them eat, as he wanted evil in the world.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

and just like a child(assuming that adam and eve don't have any kind of distinction), disobeying his mother, they must have felt that they are doing something wrong. even if you don't have a distinction between right or wrong, if you do something that you aren't supposed to do in the first place, you have to do it when no one is looking. This means you are hiding, which means that you are wrong.

put some sweets infront of a child, and it will eat them, however a child may have a instinctive, feeling of good and bad, but this story ask us to believe that adam and eve had no knowledge of good or evil, so therefore would not have an instinctive knowledge of good or evil. do you grasp it yet.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

The point is they chose it with their own free will, God didn't tell them to follow evil, He gave them the choice. He put them to the test.
I would also like to remind you that God gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of this tree, being forbidden.

but you have'nt shown, how they could have known, of good and evil before they ate of the fruit, or how they could understand what forbidden meant, are you crasping it.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

I think you have misunderstood the difference between God knowing something is going to happen and it actually happening. God knows everything, yes. He knows how you react, how you will choose and everything else about you. He then puts you to the test, anykind of test. He knows how you will do, but he doesn't tell you to do that. We aren't programmed, we're given the choice. If we choose right, it's with our own free will, if we choose wrong it 's also with our own free will.

if your life is preodained then you have no free will but thats another arguement.

Originally Posted by sina_marine

I hope you understand what i mean.

no, you make no sense, and it seem you find simple logic hard to grasp.

Originally Posted by geezer

you started your post with adam and eve,so I will pose a question and give you the answer, so you can better understand your god

It is open for individual interpretation .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only view God but they could talk to God directly.

Originally Posted by geezer

could you have a two way conversation with a one year old child, or a chimpanzee, a dog, or even a lion?

And what makes you deduct God created Adam and Eve with minds that were blank slates ?

Originally Posted by geezer

no of course not, they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter

As I understand Adam and Eve were created in Gods image as they were fully developed into maturity .

Originally Posted by geezer

as they had the mind of a one year old, they could not have transgressed and understood the implications of it, until they had eaten of the fruit.

Then if Adam and Eve had no concept of guilt because of their immaturity why did they feel guilt for what they had done .

Originally Posted by geezer

god placed a tree where there need be no tree

It was a garden , of course that is where you place tree's , and in this case God instructed that you do not eat from this tree.

Originally Posted by geezer

and then coerced them into eating from it,

Satan coerced them into eating the fruit .

Originally Posted by geezer

if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.) as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.

The garden of Eden was a garden of plenty , Adam and Eve were mature and knew right from wrong .Just for the record , Adam and Eve is an example not historical fact it is the story of Mans first fall from grace . I began my post to explain how distant man and God communication has become . As you read the Old Testament , you see how man becomes more sophisticated . with this sophistication God provides prophets and Angels to intercede on his behalf . Mans reaction and resistance to God is evidenced in either listening to the false prophet or outright murder in the case of Jesus . The men who murdered Jesus knew he was the messiah , yet they still murdered him . All of Gods attempts have failed , God no longer lives in our world and we are left to our own devices .

Originally Posted by geezer

which makes the rest of your post invalid.

My deduction based on Mans uninterrupted history of mass murder and evil is testament to the validity of my claim .
GOD does not reside with humanity[/b]

Originally Posted by Cris

Other Christians assert that their god is with them all the time, and others claim they converse with their god regularly.

But more objectively life has not changed significantly for many millenia. We know of no way to converse with gods of any type or even know whether gods are even possible. Certainly there is nothing around that indicates that gods might or have ever existed.

But it's nice fairy tale to scare small children.

When did God last intervene to assist mankind ?
When he gave Jesus Christ to save mankind .
Since then , in those last 2 thousand years mankind has not been visited by a prophet of God . Save the self professed mad messiahs who impart us with their sociopathic rampages .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: What language did God, Adam and Eve speak?

What is this the start of University Challenge or something?

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Why did God want to trick them?

God did not offer a trick , God gave Adam and Eve an odrer.

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

Where did they go when they got evicted?

Somewhere in the Midaest I imagine .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Why was God hiding?

Not hiding , it was distant communication .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Abraham practiced polytheism. He allegedly lived about 2,100 years before the time of Moses, who invented monotheism. There was no Exodus much less any burning bush or hearing a god speak. There may have not even been a Moses. In any case, you need to do some research.

Actually if you have any intelligence you would see I am explaining why God has progressively becaome more distant to a point where there is no longer any communication .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: If there were a god, why would he allow false prophets to confuse people... oh, yeah, just like he put that tree in the Garden... to trick mankind.

Man was given a free mind after the fall of Adam and Eve , man decides his destiny .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Why would an all-loving creator have his only son murdered for us corrupt human beings?

Man murdered Jesus in a world where God no longer personally directly interceded .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

God knew how we were from our stint in the Garden, then about 5,000 years down the road he decides to save us, so he sacrifices his son.

Man has always had a chance to stop what has been predicted , the Apocalypse as we are told will happen , but in Revelation mankind is instructed these events can be prevented if we turn to God .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

If god wanted us to not be corrupt, he would have created us more perfect.

We were created in Gods image , directly after the fall of the Angels , who also were created in Gods image .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

Further, being god, he could have fixed us without sacrificing anything.

God gave man a free mind .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Wait a minute... earlier you said god hadn't been with man since the time of the Exodus. Now you say that it was when he murdered his own son that he hasn't lived among us. Which is it? Is god here or not? If he's not here, why are all those religions worshipping him? If he is still among us, why are all those human beings still worshipping their religions? If god is really here, why do we need religions? If god is here, why is he hiding?

Follow the thread , at first Gods communication with man is direct and personal , as my thread progresses Gods communication becomes less personal and indirect . effectively God is washing his hands of his creation Mankind .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Satan coerced them into eating the fruit .

What the fuck man?!

The garden of Eden was a garden of plenty , Adam and Eve were mature and knew right from wrong .Just for the record , Adam and Eve is an example not historical fact it is the story of Mans first fall from grace .

WTF, man! First fall from grace?! Dude, you need to think about what you are saying! If you were drunk when you wrote this, or high, I can understand you. If you were not, WTFF man?! God was created by an insecure, fearful man, or men!!! There is only the God that we want there to be. How could any true God knowingly create us only to see us "fall from god-damned Grace" because of fucking Satan?!?!!! 'He' does see all, know all, is everywhere, right?!?! How could He not know that we were going to fucking be tempted by the snake, Satan, and "fall from fucking grace?!?!!!" Huh?!?!!! If He is up there somewhere, god-damn it, I want to grab Him by the scruff of His hairy damn neck and give Him a good damn shake, or more. Yeah, I would like to ring his hairy neck. Give Him a good Indian sun-burn, for all the damn suffering He has caused. He is a piece of shite! Therefore, He does not exist.

I began my post to explain how distant man and God communication has become .

Very, very distant. Almost non-existent, no?

As you read the Old Testament , you see how man becomes more sophisticated . with this sophistication God provides prophets and Angels to intercede on his behalf .

Why? Is He so above Us that He can't even do it Himself?!!!! Does He not care enough for Us to do it Himself?!!!! Is He shackled somehow?!!!! What the flying fuck is His problem?!!!!

Mans reaction and resistance to God is evidenced in either listening to the false prophet or outright murder in the case of Jesus.

False prophet, of course, being Satan and His Demons?!!! BECAUSE SATAN AND HIS DEMONS are as powerful as GOD, or even more so, I guess, so that We would take His side over God's?!!!! How could God allow some of His Creations (Satan and His Demons) to be as fucking powerful, or just almost as powerful, or even MORE powerful than HIMSELF?!!! Huh?!!! Ever asked yourself this?!!!!

The men who murdered Jesus knew he was the messiah , yet they still murdered him .

Why the fuck would they do this?!! If I knew He was the Messiah, I wouldn't! Would You?! Would You????

All of Gods attempts have failed , God no longer lives in our world and we are left to our own devices .

We are so pathetic, huh? God, I guess, is even more pathetic, no?

My deduction based on Mans uninterrupted history of mass murder and evil is testament to the validity of my claim .

Your claim being that "God doesn't reside with humanity" anymore, I take it? When did He ever LIVE with us?! Is He so inept that He does not have enough love to take care of His creation? I don't think He exists, and You have certainly done NOTHING to change my mind.

GOD does not reside with humanity

No shit?!!!!!!!!

MODERATORS,

I think the above deserves passion. If you do not agree, I am sorry.

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

What the fuck man?!

Are you Fucked in the head ? ..............I thought this was a forum for intellectual discussion ?

I authored an analysis of Gods communication with man as written in the Bible . I am attempting to demonstrate how more sophisticated mans interpretation with God becomes .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

And what makes you deduce God created Adam and Eve with minds that were blank slates ?

because he created them with no knowledge of good or bad, that means no good thoughts, no bad thought no inbetween thought, no good deeds, no bad deeds, no inbetween deeds, it's a very simple logic,

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

no of course not, they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter

As I understand Adam and Eve were created in Gods image as they were fully developed into maturity.

irrelevant, see above answer.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

as they had the mind of a one year old, they could not have transgressed and understood the implications of it, until they had eaten of the fruit.

Then if Adam and Eve had no concept of guilt because of their immaturity why did they feel guilt for what they had done.

they felt no shame or guilt until after eating of the fruit.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

god placed a tree where there need be no tree

It was a garden , of course that is where you place tree's , and in this case God instructed that you do not eat from this tree.

irrelevant, it was only put there as temptation, as they could not of understood the warning.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.) as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.

The garden of Eden was a garden of plenty , Adam and Eve were mature and knew right from wrong

how?, see above answers.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Just for the record , Adam and Eve is an example not historical fact it is the story of Mans first fall from grace.

so the book of genesis, is all bollocks then, welcome to the real world.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

God no longer lives in our world and we are left to our own devices .

something I rationalised when I was a child.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

which makes the rest of your post invalid.

My deduction based on Mans uninterrupted history of mass murder and evil is testament to the validity of my claim.

no it's testament to the evil god is, all that was done in the name of god or a god, after all there are over 2500 of them.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

GOD does not reside with humanity

I know, it reside in your mind.

M*W: Just answer the question. What language did God, Adam and Eve speak?
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M*W: Where did they go when they got evicted from Eden? "Somewhere in the Midaest I imagine" is not an acceptable answer.
*************
M*W: Where was Adam created it it wasn't in Eden? Where the hell was Eden?
*************
M*W: You haven't explained "why God has progressively become more distant to a point where there is no longer any communication." Again, what language did God speak to Adam and Eve?
*************
M*W: You said, "effectively God is washing his hands of his creation Mankind." If so, then why should anyone waste their time trying to find God?

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

I authored an analysis of Gods communication with man as written in the Bible .

Was it published? If so, what's the name of it, and the name of the author, your name?

I am attempting to demonstrate how more sophisticated mans interpretation with God becomes .

If this sentence is any example of your writing style, I will not read the book. What is this supposed to mean?

Do you have any answers for my questions in my last post, since this is supposed to be an intelligent discussion and all? In fact, just answer this one:

Why the fuck would they do this?!! (This being that they knew Jesus was the Messiah and killed him anyway). If I knew He was the Messiah, I wouldn't! Would You?! Would You????

Are you Fucked in the head ?

Yes, but thankfully not as much as you.

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Just answer the question. What language did God, Adam and Eve speak?

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

Again, what language did God speak to Adam and Eve?

English ! OK are you happy now !

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Where did they go when they got evicted from Eden? "Somewhere in the Midaest I imagine" is not an acceptable answer.

Ur in ancient Iraq .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: Where was Adam created it it wasn't in Eden? Where the hell was Eden?

In ancient Iraq .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: You haven't explained "why God has progressively become more distant to a point where there is no longer any communication."

As mankind develops his material civilization , man finds it necessary to treasure his material possessions over loyalty to God . Whence why mankind listens to the False Prophets promise of more material excess . Than the annointed Prophets call of 7 years of harvest and 7 years of famine .

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman

M*W: You said, "effectively God is washing his hands of his creation Mankind." If so, then why should anyone waste their time trying to find God?

God is a personal judgement , I cannot make any individual believe , as was written in Genisis God gave man a free mind . If people want to waste time finding personal Gods , go right ahead .

Look , Adam and Eve is just a fairytale , like Moses and the exodus , the Jews were not slaves in the land of Egypt that built the Pyramids . Modern archaeology has proven this , in fact most of the Old Testatment from Genisis is ripped off from the Story of Gilgamesh . It is just a story of mans fall from grace with god .

Having said all that , I am just commenting on how Gods communication with mankind becomes more distant as the reader progress's through the OT .

Originally Posted by geezer

because he created them with no knowledge of good or bad, that means no good thoughts, no bad thought no inbetween thought, no good deeds, no bad deeds, no inbetween deeds, it's a very simple logic,

Could you lead me to which verses in Genesis where God created Adam and Eve with purely innocent , guitless minds . It would help your debate if we had something firm to proceed on .

Originally Posted by geezer

Then if Adam and Eve had no concept of guilt because of their immaturity why did they feel guilt for what they had done.

If they had blank minds how could Adam and Eve converse with God ?
That is what you are supposing and I ask you too lead me to what verses in Genesis where this is mentioned .

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, it was only put there as temptation, as they could not of understood the warning.

Cosmic entrapment ? A specific instruction was given by God , Adam and Eve understood , Eve was tempted by the Serpent and both ate . How does that lead to entrapment ?

Originally Posted by geezer

so the book of genesis, is all bollocks then, welcome to the real world.

I think your dialling the wrong number here mate ? You seem to of picked me out as some Christian Fundamentalist to make an example of . Im just musing thoughts I have on this subject .

Originally Posted by geezer

no it's testament to the evil god is, all that was done in the name of god or a god, after all there are over 2500 of them.

The evil in this world is of mans doing .

Originally Posted by geezer

I know, it reside in your mind.

And you sent me a PM requesting me to defend myself , you are just stating the bleeding obvious ?

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

Was it published? If so, what's the name of it, and the name of the author, your name?

It will be published next March , in a series of 32 volumes , released each month , each volume comes with a complimentary DVD . The tiltle will be "Is God Welsh" .

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

If this sentence is any example of your writing style, I will not read the book. What is this supposed to mean?

Im sorry English is my second language my first is Alabanian .

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

Why the fuck would they do this?!! (This being that they knew Jesus was the Messiah and killed him anyway). If I knew He was the Messiah, I wouldn't! Would You?! Would You????

Read Matthew the crowd didnt give Fuck that he was the Messiah .

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

Yes, but thankfully not as much as you.

Buy a porn magazine , you sound really wired , the activity will calm you out.
:-D

Not today, I think.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

The tiltle will be "Is God Welsh" .
Im sorry English is my second language my first is Alabanian .

Are you taking the piss?

Cottentop, calm down. Your debating points are carrying a lot more weight when you express them unemotionally. I understand your passion, but I think its counterproductive here.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

because he created them with no knowledge of good or bad, that means no good thoughts, no bad thought no inbetween thought, no good deeds, no bad deeds, no inbetween deeds, it's a very simple logic,

Could you lead me to which verses in Genesis where God created Adam and Eve with purely innocent , guiltless minds . It would help your debate if we had something firm to proceed on.

irrelevant, do come on, there does not have to be a verse, your trying to divert the question.
use your head, how could they be anything else, with no knowledge of good and evil, before the aledged fall, then they could not have known what good or bad was could they.therefore could have no understanding of gods warning he could just as easily, said dont pick you nose it had about as much meaning.
PREMISE: Adam and eve had no knowledge of good or evil before the fall.
INFERENCE:therefore could not of known that what they were doing was wrong.
CONCLUSION:they could not have knowingly committed original sin. man is not to blame for original sin, therefore god must of wanted evil in the world.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

they felt no shame or guilt until after eating of the fruit.

If they had blank minds how could Adam and Eve converse with God ?

irrelevant, the fact remains they had no knowledge of good or evil, before the ate the fruit. see the above answer. and try to grasp it it's not hard.
just admit, man did not cause is own downfall.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, it was only put there as temptation, as they could not of understood the warning.

Cosmic entrapment ? A specific instruction was given by God , Adam and Eve understood , Eve was tempted by the Serpent and both ate . How does that lead to entrapment ?

read the above answer.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

so the book of genesis, is all bollocks then, welcome to the real world.

I think your dialling the wrong number here mate ? You seem to of picked me out as some Christian Fundamentalist to make an example of . Im just musing thoughts I have on this subject .

so you believe like I do, and your just playing me, is that it.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

no it's testament to the evil god is, all that was done in the name of god or a god, after all there are over 2500 of them.

The evil in this world is of mans doing.

I agree, but the bible ask us to believe that man brought evil into the world, that's the premise is it not.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

I know, it reside in your mind.

And you sent me a PM requesting me to defend myself , you are just stating the bleeding obvious ?

I pm'ed you because everyone who I've ever come across on forums tends to say and go. forums are for debate.
that other person who was on this thread sine something has f**ked off.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Cottentop, calm down. Your debating points are carrying a lot more weight when you express them unemotionally. I understand your passion, but I think its counterproductive here.

I know. I just don't care at times anymore. Thanks for the constructive criticism, though. I respond well to that, probably like many of us.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Are you taking the piss?

What about the complimentary DVD give away with each volume ?

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, do come on, there does not have to be a verse, your trying to divert the question.

I believe it is relevant , I can only deduct that God created Adam and Eve as fully developed Human beings . This stands to reason , Adam and Eve had no Parents only a creator , that being God , development through conception and pregnancy didnt happen.

Originally Posted by geezer

use your head, how could they be anything else, with no knowledge of good and evil, before the aledged fall, then they could not have known what

good or bad was could they.therefore could have no understanding of gods warning he could just as easily, said dont pick you nose it had about as much

meaning.

I am using my head , I reasoned that God must of created Adam and Eve as fully developed and rational Human Beings who could discern between right and wrong . I base this on what I have read of Genesis , I have found no verses that support that Adam and eve were born just created .

Originally Posted by geezer

PREMISE: Adam and eve had no knowledge of good or evil before the fall.

They must of had some semblance and understanding of right and wrong if God had asked adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree .

Originally Posted by geezer

INFERENCE:therefore could not of known that what they were doing was wrong.

If Adam and Eve felt guilt after eating the fruit this counters your claim .

Originally Posted by geezer

CONCLUSION:they could not have knowingly committed original sin. man is not to blame for original sin, therefore god must of wanted evil in the

world.

Your conclusion is wrong , I believe God as stated in the Old Testament craeted Mankind with a free mind .

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, the fact remains they had no knowledge of good or evil, before the ate the fruit. see the above answer. and try to grasp it it's not hard.
just admit, man did not cause is own downfall.

God gave a specfic request , Eve gave into temptation and coerced Adam to take a bite of the forbidden fruit .

Originally Posted by geezer

so you believe like I do, and your just playing me, is that it.

I am playing no game , I believe Genesis is a story within the Bible that needs to be exoplained , and i am offering an opinion .

Originally Posted by geezer

I agree, but the bible ask us to believe that man brought evil into the world, that's the premise is it not.

Basically yes Man is his own jailer .

Originally Posted by geezer

I pm'ed you because everyone who I've ever come across on forums tends to say and go. forums are for debate.
that other person who was on this thread sine something has f**ked off.

I am enjoying my debate with you and I havent fucked off .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, do come on, there does not have to be a verse, your trying to divert the question.

I believe it is relevant, I can only deduct that God created Adam and Eve as fully developed Human beings. This stands to reason, Adam and Eve had no Parents only a creator, that being God , development through conception and pregnancy didnt happen.

I'm not disputing they had adult form, but there minds were liken to a childs, a very small child.
if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(they would here you, and proberly appear as if they acknowledge you, could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong, would it not.
with no knowledge of wrong, a child or animal goes on it's merry way.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

use your head, how could they be anything else, with no knowledge of good and evil, before the aledged fall, then they could not have known what good or bad was could they.therefore could have no understanding of gods warning he could just as easily, said dont pick you nose it had about as much meaning.

I am using my head , I reasoned that God must of created Adam and Eve as fully developed and rational Human Beings who could discern between right and wrong . I base this on what I have read of Genesis , I have found no verses that support that Adam and eve were born just created.

and theres no verse to suggest they were born rational either.
just to put the emphasis on my point, Gen 2,25: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed. feeling no guilt, not having guilty feelings.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

PREMISE: Adam and eve had no knowledge of good or evil before the fall.

They must of had some semblance and understanding of right and wrong if God had asked adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree.

as I've said, see above answer, also Gen 3,5: For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened,(meaning there eyes are closed to knowledge of good and evil) and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

INFERENCE:therefore could not of known that what they were doing was wrong.

If Adam and Eve felt guilt after eating the fruit this counters your claim.

how so, that was after as you rightly said, also Gen 3,7: Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.
8: And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9: But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10: And he said, "I heard the sound of thee in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
they only felt guilty and ashamed after they ate of the fruit.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

CONCLUSION:they could not have knowingly committed original sin. man is not to blame for original sin, therefore god must of wanted evil in the world.

Your conclusion is wrong , I believe God as stated in the Old Testament created Mankind with a free mind.

but until they ate of the fruit it was an unashamed mind, likened only to a small child. and we all know what they are like dont we.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

irrelevant, the fact remains they had no knowledge of good or evil, before the ate the fruit. see the above answer. and try to grasp it it's not hard.
just admit, man did not cause is own downfall.

God gave a specfic request , Eve gave into temptation and coerced Adam to take a bite of the forbidden fruit.

one child tempting another always happens does'nt it, but you would not condemn them to death for it would you, they minds were innocent, unashamed minds.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

so you believe like I do, and your just playing me, is that it.

I am playing no game , I believe Genesis is a story within the Bible that needs to be explained , and i am offering an opinion.

your opinion is a valid one, all be it totally wrong.

another question, perhaps you can answer,I was always under the impression, god the one
this scripture throws me. gen 3,22: Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
why does god refer to more than one IE "us".

Originally Posted by geezer

I'm not disputing they had adult form, but there minds were liken to a childs, a very small child.
if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(they would here you, and proberly appear as if they acknowledge you, could you

ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood

it was wrong, would it not.with no knowledge of wrong, a child or animal goes on it's merry way.

Only if you accept Adam and Eve had mental age of a child this would make sense , however as I have stated that God created those 2 a fully developed human

beings , therefore I should deduct that God in his wisdom created them with intelligence . This I base on the fact that God had conversations with Adam and Eve ,

and also Adam and Eve had conversations with the serpent .

Originally Posted by geezer

and theres no verse to suggest they were born rational either.
just to put the emphasis on my point, Gen 2,25: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed. feeling no guilt, not having guilty feelings.

No the verse says that both Adam and Eve felt no shame in their nakedness , not guilt , 2 separate meanings .

Originally Posted by geezer

as I've said, see above answer, also Gen 3,5: For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened,(meaning there eyes are closed to

knowledge of good and evil) and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

In that verse those are the words the serpent uses to induce Eve to take a bite of the forbidden fruit . At the start of chap 3 the serpent is referred to as "Of all the beasts which the Lord God had made , there was none that could match the serpent in cunning " . In short Eve was fooled which happens often to the most intelligent and wise of people .

Originally Posted by geezer

another question, perhaps you can answer,I was always under the impression, god the one
this scripture throws me. gen 3,22: Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his

hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
why does god refer to more than one IE "us".

Reference to former civilizations who likewise had fallen from grace . a clue to life pre Adam and eve is found in Genesis 1:1-2, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Some early catastrophe had wrecked the earth, which was not without form and void before that. This was a judgment of God on earlier civilizations, for their wickedness. read Jeremiah 4:23-27 gives a vision of it. "I beheld the earth and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains and lo, they trembled and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld and lo, there was no man and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Yahweh and by His fierce anger. For thus hath God said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." The next clue is Genesis 1:26-28 saying, "Male and female created He them and Yahweh told these people, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" .

Originally Posted by geezer

but until they ate of the fruit it was an unashamed mind, likened only to a small child. and we all know what they are like dont we.

I know the point you are driving at , simply put that how would Adam or Eve distinguish between good and bad in their state of ignorant bliss or innoncence . My point is the first thing God utters to Adam and Eve is this explicit request . "Thou mayest eat thy fill of all the trees in the garden except the tree which brings knowledge of good and evil" so in effect temptation was put before them as you claim . Later Eve is asked by the serpent of this command she repeats it , this says Eve and Adam both recalled and understood this command .

Originally Posted by geezer

one child tempting another always happens does'nt it, but you would not condemn them to death for it would you, they minds were innocent,

unashamed minds.

Adam and Eve werent condemened to death they were evicted from the garden of evil , the death that is spoken of is the spiritual separation from God .

Originally Posted by geezer

your opinion is a valid one, all be it totally wrong.

I can only express an opinion .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

I'm not disputing they had adult form, but there minds were liken to a childs, a very small child.
if you, told your child or animal to not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,(they would here you, and proberly appear as if they acknowledge you, could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong, would it not.with no knowledge of wrong, a child or animal goes on it's merry way.

Only if you accept Adam and Eve had mental age of a child this would make sense , however as I have stated that God created those 2 a fully developed human beings therefore I should deduct that God in his wisdom created them with intelligence . This I base on the fact that God had conversations with Adam and Eve, and also Adam and Eve had conversations with the serpent.

lets be bloody awkward here shall we, god had no such conversations with adam, he told him what not to do, but it was not a two way conversation, after the aledged fall he had a conversation with him, and as for eve she only had a conversation with the serpent, but not god. ps adam had no conversations with the serpant either.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

and theres no verse to suggest they were born rational either.just to put the emphasis on my point, Gen 2,25: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed. feeling no guilt, not having guilty feelings.

No the verse says that both Adam and Eve felt no shame in their nakedness , not guilt , 2 separate meanings .

are you being facetious, or just clutching at straws, it quite plainly show's how they were free of responiblity, they were not conscience-stricken, no feelings of answerability for what they could do or how they did it.
and I suggest you look in a dictionary or thesaurus for the meanings of words.

guilt: feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : morbid self-reproach often manifest in marked preoccupation with the moral correctness of one's behavior.

Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

Guilt: Synonyms:answerability, blameworthiness, contrition, crime, criminality, culpability, delinquency, dereliction, disgrace, dishonor, error, failing, fault, guiltiness, indiscretion, infamy, iniquity, lapse, liability, malefaction, malfeasance, malpractice, misbehavior, misconduct, misstep, offence, onus, peccability, penitence, regret, remorse, responsibility, self-condemnation, self-reproach, shame, sin, sinfulness, slip, solecism, stigma, transgression, wickedness, wrong

Ashamed: used of persons; feeling shame or guilt or embarrassment or remorse; "are you ashamed for having lied?"

Feeling shame or guilt

ashamed:Synonyms:abashed, apologetic, bashful, blushing, chagrined, compunctious, conscience-stricken, contrite, crestfallen, debased, demeaned, discomfited, disconcerted, distraught, distressed, embarrassed, flustered, guilty, hesitant, humble, humbled, humiliated, meek, mortified, muddled, penitent, regretful, reluctant, remorseful, repentant, shamed, shamefaced, sheepish, shy, sorry, stammering, stuttering, submissive

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

as I've said, see above answer, also Gen 3,5: For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened,(meaning there eyes are closed to knowledge of good and evil) and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

In that verse those are the words the serpent uses to induce Eve to take a bite of the forbidden fruit . At the start of chap 3 the serpent is referred to as "Of all the beasts which the Lord God had made , there was none that could match the serpent in cunning " . In short Eve was fooled which happens often to the most intelligent and wise of people. I'm sorry my bibles dont seem to say that they just say Gen 3,1: Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

subtle could mean a miriad of things IeDifficult to understand; abstruse)(Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever)( Crafty or sly; devious.)(Able to make fine distinctions).but yes she was fooled, coerced.because she did'nt understand.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

another question, perhaps you can answer,I was always under the impression,god the one this scripture throws me. gen 3,22: Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his
hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
why does god refer to more than one IE "us".

Reference to former civilizations who likewise had fallen from grace . a clue to life pre Adam and eve is found in Genesis 1:1-2, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Some early catastrophe had wrecked the earth, which was not without form and void before that. This was a judgment of God on earlier civilizations, for their wickedness. read Jeremiah 4:23-27 gives a vision of it. "I beheld the earth and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains and lo, they trembled and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld and lo, there was no man and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Yahweh and by His fierce anger. For thus hath God said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." The next clue is Genesis 1:26-28 saying, "Male and female created He them and Yahweh told these people, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" .

this does no explain the "us".
it just makes it more contradictory.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

but until they ate of the fruit it was an unashamed mind, likened only to a small child. and we all know what they are like dont we.

I know the point you are driving at , simply put that how would Adam or Eve distinguish between good and bad in their state of ignorant bliss or innoncence . My point is the first thing God utters to Adam and Eve is this explicit request . "Thou mayest eat thy fill of all the trees in the garden except the tree which brings knowledge of good and evil" so in effect temptation was put before them as you claim . Later Eve is asked by the serpent of this command she repeats it , this says Eve and Adam both recalled and understood this command .

I can mimic people as well, does not mean I understand what said Ie I cant speak french but I could read it out or, if spoken to me repeat it back, does not mean I understand it does it.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

one child tempting another always happens does'nt it, but you would not condemn them to death for it would you, they minds were innocent, unashamed minds.

Adam and Eve werent condemned to death they were evicted from the garden of eden , the death that is spoken of is the spiritual separation from God .

according to all the religious people adam and eve had everlasting life in the garden, but after there life were limited therefore condemned to death.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

Originally Posted by geezer

your opinion is a valid one, all be it totally wrong.

I can only express an opinion .

and I'm glad you are sticking to your guns, however I don't understand how we go over and over this and yet again you seem to hit reboot and revert back to begining after each discussion.

Originally Posted by geezer

however I don't understand how we go over and over this and yet again you seem to hit reboot and revert back to begining after each discussion.

My thread covers a time lapse from Adam and Eve through to Jesus Christ , you somehow are fixated on Adam and Eve . My thread is about Gods communication with Man becoming more impersonal to non-existent . You on the other hand are fixated on Adam and Eve's fall from grace . I really dont care , its immaterial to my thread .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

My thread covers a time lapse from Adam and Eve through to Jesus Christ , you somehow are fixated on Adam and Eve . My thread is about Gods communication with Man becoming more impersonal to non-existent . You on the other hand are fixated on Adam and Eve's fall from grace . I really dont care , its immaterial to my thread .

ok, but we have infact established that adam and eve did not fall from grace, as aledged, therefore were not the cause of original sin.

Originally Posted by brian foley

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only veiw God but they could talk to God directly . Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden . From there God's communication with man was in the form of men hearing his voice but not seeing God directly . Abrahams communication with God , and Moses and the burning bush is an example of this hearing and not seeing ,

so we now know that the comunication break down was on gods part, and not mans, evil was put in the world by god and not man.
this means that the jesus thing could only be rubbish as is the aledged flood.

so I quote

Originally Posted by cris

But more objectively life has not changed significantly for many millenia. We know of no way to converse with gods of any type or even know whether gods are even possible. Certainly there is nothing around that indicates that gods might or have ever existed.
But it's nice fairy tale to scare small children.

I'm sorry it was hard going for you , one day you will come to understand that the bible is a fictious book of fairy tales, and no god/gods exist. till then happy dreaming.

geezer,

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only view God but they could talk to God directly.


could you have a two way conversation with a one year old child, or a chimpanzee, a dog, or even a lion?
no of course not, they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter.

What are you talking about?

Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden.

as they had the mind of a one year old, they could not have transgressed and understood the implications of it, until they had eaten of the fruit.

What are you talking about?

god placed a tree where there need be no tree and then coerced them into eating from it, if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do,

So an adult wouldn't?

(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.)

This I would love to see.

as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong.

Adam already knew about falling from grace as he was present when Iblis (Lucifer/Satan) fell, because of envy. He knew what the consequences of selfishness were. He knew it was in his interest to obey God.

so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

Your reasoning is way too simplistic.

Jan Ardena.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

geezer,

Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve could not only view God but they could talk to God directly

could you have a two way conversation with a one year old child, or a chimpanzee, a dog, or even a lion?
no of course not, they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter.

What are you talking about?

I'm not going to repeat it all again, this debate has been going for some days read the thread.
and you may better understand.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Then Adam and Eve transgressed and God evicted them from the garden of Eden.

as they had the mind of a one year old, they could not have transgressed and understood the implications of it, until they had eaten of the fruit.

What are you talking about?

see above reply.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

god placed a tree where there need be no tree and then coerced them into eating from it, if you, told your child or animal to, not do what is in there inquisitive nature to do, as they had no understand of good and evil.

So an adult wouldn't?

of course an adult would, however they can decern between right or wrong, were as adam and eve, were likened to children , they had no knowledge of good or evil, before eating the fruit.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.)

This I would love to see.

what would you love to see, a lion not eat a goat?

Originally Posted by jan ardena

as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong.

Adam already knew about falling from grace as he was present when Iblis (Lucifer/Satan) fell, because of envy. He knew what the consequences of selfishness were. He knew it was in his interest to obey God.

I can find no reference to this in the new king james bible,could you point me to the scripture, thank you.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

Your reasoning is way too simplistic.
Jan Ardena.

how so, your not going to say theres more to it are you. (perhaps you have a very hard to read version, of the bible.(written in sanskrit).

geezer,

What are you talking about?

I'm not going to repeat it all again, this debate has been going for some days read the thread. and you may better understand.

What makes you think Adam and Eve had minds of small children?

were as adam and eve, were likened to children , they had no knowledge of good or evil, before eating the fruit.

Where does it say Adam and Eve are likened to children?

(IE:could you ask a lion not to eat a goat,or a chimp to eat a banana, until you had trained it to understand it was wrong, it would do what was in it's nature to do, until it understood it was wrong.)

This I would love to see.

what would you love to see, a lion not eat a goat?[quote]

A lion not eating a goat because it has been trained.

Adam already knew about falling from grace as he was present when Iblis (Lucifer/Satan) fell, because of envy. He knew what the consequences of selfishness were. He knew it was in his interest to obey God.

I can find no reference to this in the new king james bible,could you point me to the scripture, thank you.

The scriptoral reference is in the Qur'an. I can find it if you like.

how so, your not going to say theres more to it are you. (perhaps you have a very hard to read version, of the bible.(written in sandscript).

You don't seem to have given much thought to anything you are discussing.

You mean "sanskrit" as opposed to "sandscript" don't you?
But if there is a script made out of, or in the sand, have you got any links to it?

Jan Ardena.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

What makes you think Adam and Eve had minds of small children?

I used this term because, according to the king james bible, they had no knowledge of good and evil, this means quite simply, they could not do bad deeds or good deeds, or think bad thoughts or good thoughts, or say bad things or good things, in effect they were blank sheet ready to be written, as is a very small child.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Where does it say Adam and Eve are likened to children?

it does'nt, however before the fall, you can only make that conclusion, see above.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

A lion not eating a goat because it has been trained.

why would that be strange, ever seen the film "born free", or daktari on the tv pet lions abound.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

The scriptoral reference is in the Qur'an. I can find it if you like.

irrelevent, I was discussing the king james bible version of events, you may as well read to me, of ganesh in the vegas, it has about as much use, to the topic.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

You don't seem to have given much thought to anything you are discussing.

I never do, that would be patronising to the morons.

That's nice -- sandscript --.
Written in the sand. Written with the sand.
Like a mandala. One strike of hand -- and it's gone.

geezer,

What makes you think Adam and Eve had minds of small children?

I used this term because, according to the king james bible, they had no knowledge of good and evil,

Please show where in the Bible it says that?

Where does it say Adam and Eve are likened to children?

it does'nt, however before the fall, you can only make that conclusion, see above.

Unless you can show otherwise, your above answer is nonsense.

A lion not eating a goat because it has been trained. why would that be strange, ever seen the film "born free", or daktari on the tv pet lions abound.

The only way a lion would resist eating a goat if it was hungry is if it was born into captivety and trained from day one to resist its natural urges, and even then I doubt it would resist from long.

irrelevent, I was discussing the king james bible version of events, you may as well read to me, of ganesh in the vegas, it has about as much use, to the topic.

Funny I thought you were discussing Adam and Eve.
"Vegas?"
It vedas, dude.
At least you spelled Ganesh correctly.

I never do, that would be patronising to the morons.

You do realise that statement is an insult?

Jan Ardena.

Originally Posted by geezer

ok, but we have infact established that adam and eve did not fall from grace, as aledged, therefore were not the cause of original sin.

No , far from it , I have always stated that God created Adam and Eve in full Adult form , so therefore God in his infinite wisdom gave Adam and Eve full maturity of reason .
A ) God gave an order , do not eat from the tree .
B ) Adam and Eve fell to temptaion and ate fro tree .

Originally Posted by geezer

so we now know that the comunication break down was on gods part, and not mans, evil was put in the world by god and not man.
this means that the jesus thing could only be rubbish as is the aledged flood.

How could that be , when God gave an order and later asked if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree . Remember God trusted those 2 and was only aroused in suspiciaon by the guilty behaviour afterwards .

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Please show where in the Bible it says

that?

oh come now, it does'nt as you well know, however it does say this Gen 2,16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
we can conclude from this that they had no knowledge of good and evil, which means they could not think bad thoughts or good thoughts, do bad deeds or good deeds, or say bad things or good things, in effect they were blank sheet ready to be written, as is a very small child.
but I've stated this, several times, it's not hard to grasp.
your not assuming they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree, are you.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Unless you can show otherwise, your above answer is nonsense.

see the above answer. I could of said the were liken to amoebas, but I prefer small children.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

The only way a lion would resist eating a goat if it was hungry is if it was born into captivety and trained from day one to resist its natural urges, and even then I doubt it would resist from long.

exactly, train, tutor, educate, civilize, coach, cultivate, enlighten, instruct, nurture.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Funny I thought you were discussing Adam and Eve.

we are, but the king james bible version.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

"Vegas?" Very Happy
It vedas, dude.
At least you spelled Ganesh correctly. Smile

is your arguement that weak, that you have to resort to picking fault with these petty spelling mistakes.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

You do realise that statement is an insult?

is it, wow I had'nt realised.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

No , far from it , I have always stated that God created Adam and Eve in full Adult form , so therefore God in his infinite wisdom gave Adam and Eve full maturity of reason.

from where does their Reasoning come.
do you assume the had knowledge of right and wrong before that ate of the tree.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

A ) God gave an order , do not eat from the
tree.

we've been over this, but they did'nt understand the order.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

B ) Adam and Eve fell to temptation and ate from the tree.

we've been over this, but the did'nt know they were doing wrong.

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

How could that be , when God gave an order and
later asked if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree. Remember God
trusted those 2 and was only aroused in suspicion by the guilty
behaviour afterwards.

exactly they were only guilty after.
they felt no shame before, as they did'nt understand right from wrong.
we've been over this too.

Geezer,

Yep, I'd say you have done a masterful job of getting Brian to see the errors of his ways. The real question, now, is will he listen and think about what you have, so many times, shown him.

Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

Geezer,

Yep, I'd say you have done a masterful job of getting Brian to see the errors of his ways. The real question, now, is will he listen and think about what you have, so many times, shown him.

no he wiil just keep repeating the same thing over and over,
because if he allows this truth, he will have to accept that all religion is BS.

geezer

2,16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

we can conclude from this that they had no knowledge of good and evil,

Don't be stupid, it simply does not follow.

in effect they were blank sheet ready to be written, as is a very small child.

But they weren't small children, were they?

..but I've stated this, several times, it's not hard to grasp.

So because you have stated it several times, it must be true eh?

your not assuming they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree, are you.

I see no reason to assume anything else as there is nothing in the bible or Qur'an which states they had no knowledge of good and evil.

..see the above answer.

I have.
Its shite.

is your arguement that weak, that you have to resort to picking fault with these petty spelling mistakes.

No, just that you are incredibly boring and tedious, and the spelling mistakes are the only points of reality within your posts, which we can mutually discuss.

You do realise that statement is an insult?

is it, wow I had'nt realised.

At least now I know you're okay with insults.

Jan Ardena.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

So because you have stated it several times, it must be true eh?

no, thats religion.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

your not assuming they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree, are you.

I see no reason to assume anything else as there is nothing in the bible or Qur'an which states they had no knowledge of good and evil.

then why warn them not to eat of a tree they already had knowledge of, and why did they feel guilty after and not before, now whos being stupid.

Originally Posted by geezer

Originally Posted by jan ardena

So because you have stated it several times, it must be true eh?

no, thats religion.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

your not assuming they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree, are you.

I see no reason to assume anything else as there is nothing in the bible or Qur'an which states they had no knowledge of good and evil.

then why warn them not to eat of a tree they already had knowledge of, and why did they feel guilty after and not before, now whos being stupid.

They didn't have knowledge of the tree having such fruit, but they had knowledge of good and evil, which is why they didn't partake, they had to be cajoled.

Hold on to the stupid hat.

Jan Ardena.

Originally Posted by jan ardens

They didn't have knowledge of the tree having such fruit, but they had knowledge of good and evil, which is why they didn't partake, they had to be cajoled.

you've backed yourself into a corner, we all know who's head fits the hat.
so you agree that they were not guilty of original sin.

cajole: argue into, banter, beguile, blandish, bootlick, brownnose, build up, butter, butter up, coerce, con, crowd, deceive, decoy, delude, dupe, entice, entrap, force, get around, induce, influence, inveigle, jolly, lure, maneuver, massage, mislead, oil, push, seduce, snow, soap, soft-soap, soften, stroke, sweet-talk, sweeten up, tantalize, tempt, urge, wheedle, work on, work over.

it's nice to have someone as religious as you admit the truth.
thank you.

Originally Posted by geezer

no he wiil just keep repeating the same thing over and over,

I said this to you some days ago , in an effort to gety you moving along , it failed .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

My thread covers a time lapse from Adam and Eve through to Jesus Christ , you somehow are fixated on Adam and Eve

Originally Posted by geezer

because if he allows this truth, he will have to accept that all religion is BS.

I am still waiting on you to furnish proof Adam and Eve had undeveloped minds .

Originally Posted by Brian Foley

I am still waiting on you to furnish proof Adam and Eve had undeveloped minds .

can you furnish proof that they had developed minds.
the reason as you say I'm fixated, with adam and eve, is as I said at the begining and I quote " it is what your god wanted. which makes the rest of your post invalid." so as we shown that adam and eve could not be held responsible for original sin, then anything that happened after is invalid.

this was said as a reply to silas I quote "

geezer wrote:

as they had no understand of good and evil. then disciplining them for it, is wrong. so from that you can only conclude it is what your god wanted.
which makes the rest of your post invalid.

Silas wrote:

I couldn't help chuckling at this. It would also make two and a half thousand years of Jewish and Christian theological thinking invalid as well!

geezer wrote:

exactly, theres hope for them yet.

Silas wrote:

I don't think the doctrine of Original Sin is so susceptible to the argument that "God must have meant it that way anyway". Adam and Eve were told the consequences,

geezer wrote:


maybe so but they had no understanding of the said consequencs( if I said to a chimp dont touch that banana or I'll spank you, as it had never been spanked it would not know it was wrong, or how a spank felt would it ( IE they had no knowledge of good or evil until after the ate of the fruit))

Silas wrote:

so Free Will determined the outcome,

geezer wrote:

of course.

Silas wrote:

and the outcome (inevitably) was that God was disobeyed.

geezer wrote:

no, because they had no understanding of good or evil, so would not know they were doing wrong until they ate of the fruit.

Silas wrote:

God could hardly have expected any different (although, being presumably a first-time Creator maybe he didn't realise that his Creation could actually turn on him like that), but Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey his injunction and not listen to the serpent.

geezer wrote:

you dont seem to get it, do you,( the chimp could have chosen not to eat my banana, but he did) with no knowledge of right and wrong, they did'nt know that what they were doing was bad. regardless that god put a serpent there or not, it was just a long winded way of getting his wish.
god wanted it that way.

and this was in reply to sine_ marine wrote:

i think in the story of Adam and Eve you have forgotten something, it may sound silly to you, but it is true, and that is the existance of the Devil(or the evil self-you may call it).
Of course God knew they would eat the apple, but the point of putting such a temptation, was to show(by an experiment), what would happen in case you follow the devil or the evil self,

geezer wrote:

have you actually read my posts it irrelevant whether the devil was there or not if god new they would eat the apple then he must of wanted evil in the world, as they had no understanding of evil then they would not know the the devil was evil would they. or god was good for that matter, they infact would not know the difference, whether they followed the devil or god is irrelevant also, they did not know they were doing wrong, now did they.
you cannot ask a child not to do something with out first giving them the knowledge of good or bad, so they can then understand right from wrong.
so the only conclusion is god put evil into the world. therefore no original sin. no need to kill millions in a flood no need to aledgedly kill your own son, god therfore does not exist, plain and simple.

sina_marine wrote:

They were warned. God told them that they could enjoy anything in heaven except that apple tree.

geezer wrote:

but they had no understanding of the warning, did they, it had no more meaning to them than telling them not to pick there nose.
they had no knowledge of GOOD or EVIL/RIGHT or WRONG, it's quite a simple logic, it's not hard to grasp.

sina_marine wrote:

Imagine the most beautiful place on earth with the greatest givings and you won't be close to heaven. No one can. Anyhow, they had millions of things to enjoy better than the apple tree, but they chose to eat it after the devil (evil-self) nudged them to it. Anyway, by their own free will the chose to disobey

geezer wrote:

no god put the serpent there, they were coerced by god and is minions to make them eat, as he wanted evil in the world.

sina_marine wrote:

and just like a child(assuming that adam and eve don't have any kind of distinction), disobeying his mother, they must have felt that they are doing something wrong. even if you don't have a distinction between right or wrong, if you do something that you aren't supposed to do in the first place, you have to do it when no one is looking. This means you are hiding, which means that you are wrong.

geezer wrote:

put some sweets infront of a child, and it will eat them, however a child may have a instinctive, feeling of good and bad, but this story ask us to believe that adam and eve had no knowledge of good or evil, so therefore would not have an instinctive knowledge of good or evil. do you grasp it yet.

sina_marine wrote:

The point is they chose it with their own free will, God didn't tell them to follow evil, He gave them the choice. He put them to the test.
I would also like to remind you that God gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of this tree, being forbidden.

geezer wrote:

but you have'nt shown, how they could have known, of good and evil before they ate of the fruit, or how they could understand what forbidden meant, are you crasping it.

sina_marine wrote:

I think you have misunderstood the difference between God knowing something is going to happen and it actually happening. God knows everything, yes. He knows how you react, how you will choose and everything else about you. He then puts you to the test, anykind of test. He knows how you will do, but he doesn't tell you to do that. We aren't programmed, we're given the choice. If we choose right, it's with our own free will, if we choose wrong it 's also with our own free will.

geezer wrote:

if your life is preodained then you have no free will but thats another arguement.

sina_marine wrote:

I hope you understand what i mean.

geezer wrote:

no, you make no sense, and it seem you find simple logic hard to grasp.

and the above statement must go to you brian and that jan person.
be happy in your lunacy. and live a long and delusional life, as we are all going to be a long time dead ad-infinitum.

_________________
"I see moron's, and sometimes, sometimes they come here."

Hi I'm new.
that is a well thought out arguement geezer, man being the direct clause of original sin, has always been so full of holes, you could call it a collender.
if any common sense, was to get into the heads of christians, they would realise the errancy of the bible, and the impossiblity of any kind of god.
but we can only hope.