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    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
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    If I wanted to become a religious person which religion - which doctrine of faith - would you consider to be the best choice?

    By "You" I mean anyone responding to this post who considers them selves to be a spiritual person. If you would please, share with me your religious beliefs and why.

    Thank you.


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    Good gravy...what a can of worms...

    No one can really tell you that.

    What YOU need to do is go figure out what major area of religion you most like. Don't get mired in all the little sects, that's a waste of time. Figure out what you most believe is akin to your personal beliefs. Be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. That will probably involve making a few other higher choices, like what you believe in for an afterlife (if any), what you feel about redemption or souls, and how you feel about polytheism vs monotheism.

    After that, you just start looking for PEOPLE who you get along with and who have the dispositions you're looking for.


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    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Nothing, not even atheism.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolt
    If I wanted to become a religious person which religion - which doctrine of faith - would you consider to be the best choice?

    By "You" I mean anyone responding to this post who considers themselves to be a spiritual person. If you would please, share with me your religious beliefs and why.

    Thank you.
    it a bit of a moot question as there are far to many different religions to chose from, and then theres the different sects of these religions you could spend a lifetime and not find one, so the best course of action for you is to not look.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Nothing, not even atheism.
    nothing! meaning none I assume, and as for atheism, as it the default possition he has no choice, it is not a belief/faith system, so he's one anyway.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    ...you could spend a lifetime and not find one, so the best course of action for you is to not look.
    A low percentage of success is sometimes better than zero percentage of success.

    If 3% of those who go looking for the right religious group find that group, they're doing a lot better than 0%. :P

    But then again, the same logic applies with finding friends, politicians, TVs, and beer. You can spend a lot of time poking through hordes of negatives until you eventually find the right one(s), but if you don't look at all, you never find them.
    Wolf
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    If you want to worship something, then I suggest either the sun, (without it well...) or a dominant partner. In my experience the latter of these really can answer certain prayers.
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    Make your own religion, tell people you are the one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    If you want to worship something, then I suggest either the sun, (without it well...) or a dominant partner. In my experience the latter of these really can answer certain prayers.
    Oooh, sun-worship. He'll have LOTS of examples to pick from...although a few of them are extinct... :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Make your own religion, tell people you are the one.
    What a novel idea. And hey, since I'm apparently 'one in a million,' my order is already at least 8,000 strong! w00t!



    Then again, I'm not sure why you really even need to have a religion. You can have faith, and explore that faith, without having a religion.
    Wolf
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    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Ever heard of the Los Illuminados? They have like 1000 members. A bit crazy though and more of a cult.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Try Buddhism, or Zen. It tells you not to believe in god.
    But it also makes high demand of your intelligence; it says that YOU do not really exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Try Buddhism, or Zen. It tells you not to believe in god.
    But it also makes high demand of your intelligence; it says that YOU do not really exist.
    Those are specific forms of Buddhism, of course. If you actually start reading the literature, you'll find plenty of lesser Gods in Buddhism. It's really just an extension of Hinduism - with just as preposterous claims as its Western brothers/sisters.

    Why not read something by Nietzsche?
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    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
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    I think if I was going to choose one I would probably go with Catholicism.
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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    I think if I was going to choose one I would probably go with Catholicism.
    Surely you only said that to jog some heated responses? If you really feal the need to follow a religion, how about this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian-Universalism?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Surely you only said that to jog some heated responses?

    No, not particularly. I think that Catholicism has had the most remarkable history of all religions and is, in many ways, the most tragic. Say what you will but it is certainly not a religion of banal character. So from a romantic point of view I find it to be rather intriguing and in some cases even admirable.

    Ultimately though, my belief system is one that is based more on superstition rather than religion. I was just curious as to how others might respond to such a naive question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    If you want to worship something, then I suggest either the sun, (without it well...) or a dominant partner. In my experience the latter of these really can answer certain prayers.
    And since my name is that of the Hindu Sun-God, I will cheerfully accept any tithes chucked my way. No prayers necessary, but a guaranteed afterlife in heaven or your money back.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Surely you only said that to jog some heated responses?

    No, not particularly. I think that Catholicism has had the most remarkable history of all religions and is, in many ways, the most tragic. Say what you will but it is certainly not a religion of banal character. So from a romantic point of view I find it to be rather intriguing and in some cases even admirable.

    Ultimately though, my belief system is one that is based more on superstition rather than religion. I was just curious as to how others might respond to such a naive question.
    Ok, my fault. I guess from a certain perspective it is quite romantic. I (and others) just have a bit of a dislike in them as a result of how they seem to have some ridiculous add-ons to the basic Christian view and have quite a controversial past (crusades etc.). Did you take a look at my link?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
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    Yes, but I have been familiar with the Unitarian belief system for some time though probably not to the extent that you are. However it is not something that I would find suitable to the mentality of my own views.

    I suspect that there might come a point where if ones beliefs become too liberal - too open to interpretation - then they become meaningless. A user friendly self help type of faith is not something that appeals to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    No, not particularly. I think that Catholicism has had the most remarkable history of all religions and is, in many ways, the most tragic. Say what you will but it is certainly not a religion of banal character. So from a romantic point of view I find it to be rather intriguing and in some cases even admirable.
    And probably over the years caused directly or indirectly more deaths than Stalin, Hitler and a few other put together... but you know all that and what religion hasn't had crackpots who practice genicide behind their own shield.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    And probably over the years caused directly or indirectly more deaths than Stalin, Hitler and a few other put together... but you know all that and what religion hasn't had crackpots who practice genicide behind their own shield.
    I certainly won't argue with you on the moral mishaps of Catholicism simply because there is nothing to argue. Yes, many terrible deeds have been done in the name of God. I was merely commenting on the sheer awesomeness in scale when taking into account the conquering achievements of the Catholics. For good or for bad, Catholicism breeds power. Western Europe dominated the world over because of the general faith in the Catholic belief.

    Perhaps it is not so much the church I admire or those who have resided at the top of it's infrastructure but instead the countless men who have fought and died as soldiers or crusaders. In the past fifteen hundred years Catholicism and heroism (in it's most classical meaning) have gone hand-in-hand together. At least in my opinion.
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    You and I have two different meanings of heroism...
    The catholic templar knights massicured muslim caravans... killed women and children who were defenseless...
    The inquisition went over and ripped the tongues out of people who didn't confess. They brutalised people.
    Your definition of heroism is on par with saying that Jigsaw is a hero for what he does on saw...

    I'm afraid to see who your role models are. Infact, I feel sorry for whoever comes across you. I would be afraid of being mutilated by your sadistic heroism.
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    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    You and I have two different meanings of heroism...
    The catholic templar knights massicured muslim caravans... killed women and children who were defenseless...
    The inquisition went over and ripped the tongues out of people who didn't confess. They brutalised people.
    Your definition of heroism is on par with saying that Jigsaw is a hero for what he does on saw...

    I'm afraid to see who your role models are. Infact, I feel sorry for whoever comes across you. I would be afraid of being mutilated by your sadistic heroism.
    verzen misses the mark again. Don't ever give that guy a bow-n-arrow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    I certainly won't argue with you on the moral mishaps of Catholicism simply because there is nothing to argue. Yes, many terrible deeds have been done in the name of God. I was merely commenting on the sheer awesomeness in scale when taking into account the conquering achievements of the Catholics. For good or for bad, Catholicism breeds power. Western Europe dominated the world over because of the general faith in the Catholic belief.
    There's a problem with trying to tout a particular religion, and that is basically that there probably isn't a single religion out there that hasn't had its fair share of bad apples, screw-ups, bad press, misconceptions, etc. If you try to make excuses, you'll end up making them all day...

    As for the power argument, that might be a valid statement if it actually meant something outside of its own realm of play. Even within its area of influence, the Catholic Church hasn't always been the defacto symbol of power. Even at its hight, the Catholic Church always had its rivals, and the only real "fear" that those rivals felt was in regards to the numbers of Catholic followers and their level of fanaticism, not the Church itself.

    But even if we define that as a power itself, worldly power is a bit of a broader subject when we consider the time period, and the lack of separation between Church and State. Where do you draw the line in political power-mongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    Perhaps it is not so much the church I admire or those who have resided at the top of it's infrastructure but instead the countless men who have fought and died as soldiers or crusaders. In the past fifteen hundred years Catholicism and heroism (in it's most classical meaning) have gone hand-in-hand together. At least in my opinion.
    Careful there. "Heroism" in "it's most classical meaning" precedes the Catholic Church. Catholicism did not create the hero. In fact, Christianity really can only lay claim to the creation of Chivalry, and even that is a debatable subject.

    But without splitting hairs, there have been many heroes who were not Catholic, yet were still Christian. Consider the years of struggle between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church.

    There also has to be consideration taken for the fact that the Catholic Church has prompted the labeling of heroes throughout the centuries for its own glory and save-of-face, when the reality was quite different. The Crusaders (not to beat a dead horse) were touted as heroes of faith and placed in religious propaganda frequently, symbolized as glorious warriors. History paints a far different picture.

    Long story short, it's rather pompous to try and set Catholicism as the hallmark of heroes.
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    Christianity and heroism? That was never its aim. Beyond anything, turn the other cheek. Do not respond with violence, do not strive towards justice, but find peace within yourself, The Kingdom of God is within yourself.

    Christianity, even before the corruption of Paul, was against heroism. Paul, with his priestly instinct, and with placing the Kingdom of God outside of this life removed value from this life. There are no Christian heroes, for there are no Christian causes. All that is Christian lies beyond death and negates life.

    Before God, everyone is equal, there are no greater, more virtuous ways of living. Insofar as Kierkegaard violates this, his religious belief seems murky. Indeed, most of the great thinkers that were supposedly Christian seem to have difficulty to believe in the most basic premises. In their hearts, the poison has been neutralised.

    If you search for heroes, look to Greece.
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    You and I have two different meanings of heroism...
    The catholic templar knights massicured muslim caravans... killed women and children who were defenseless...
    The inquisition went over and ripped the tongues out of people who didn't confess. They brutalised people.
    Your definition of heroism is on par with saying that Jigsaw is a hero for what he does on saw...

    I'm afraid to see who your role models are. Infact, I feel sorry for whoever comes across you. I would be afraid of being mutilated by your sadistic heroism.
    Hmm, are we talking about religion or are we just talking about human beings? And why did the Templar knights commit all of those atrocious acts? Because they were Catholic? Or perhaps because they were European? Or how about because they were white? There's always a patsy if you look for it. Religions come and go - Bigotry and murder, however, are products of human nature. Third world peoples have died as a result of environmentalism but that doesn't mean that the initial idea of protecting our natural habitats was the actual cause. There is no such thing as an idea that is 100% immune to fallacy or corruption. Anything can be used for good or bad.

    Christianity and heroism? That was never its aim. Beyond anything, turn the other cheek. Do not respond with violence, do not strive towards justice, but find peace within yourself, The Kingdom of God is within yourself.

    Christianity, even before the corruption of Paul, was against heroism. Paul, with his priestly instinct, and with placing the Kingdom of God outside of this life removed value from this life. There are no Christian heroes, for there are no Christian causes. All that is Christian lies beyond death and negates life.

    Before God, everyone is equal, there are no greater, more virtuous ways of living. Insofar as Kierkegaard violates this, his religious belief seems murky. Indeed, most of the great thinkers that were supposedly Christian seem to have difficulty to believe in the most basic premises. In their hearts, the poison has been neutralised.

    If you search for heroes, look to Greece.
    Yeah okay but remember, "I am not Catholic." Nor do I have any desire to convert to Catholicism as my religion. So I'm not trying to argue this from the point of a believer. My point is that I am not so much impressed by Catholicism itself as I am the people who have served it with the utmost devotion. It's interesting that you mention the ancient Greeks, who I admire as well, because that's actually a very accurate analogy as to how I see Catholicism/Christianity; a history of extraordinary tales. The war mongering exploits of all those who have fought and killed in the name of God would surely be deemed horrid and immoral through the sensibilities of modern day society. And since I do consider myself to be a compassionate individual, I would be inclined to agree with such a verdict. But this is not a question of morality it is a question of raw human achievement. The Vikings scoured much of the known world leaving nothing but massacre and destruction in their wake. Does that mean that we shouldn't be impressed by their achievements as a conquering breed?

    No, the church did not invent power. Yet no other religious foundation has ever been as successful in spreading itself world wide; setting up shop on virtually every continent on the planet. What I admire is how many of these followers, whether they be a soldier, a priest, or a puritan, were so completely and utterly devoted to their faith and how such an unbreakable devotion was, in many ways, the seed for ambition - The kind of ambition that allowed them to overcome many great challenges or to at least face those challenges without a moments hesitation. To me, that is the classical definition of heroism. And as I've said before, it is also the tragedy of it all that I find compelling. The idea that a man will do something that, through contemporary eyes, is quite dastardly and yet still considers his actions to be on the right side of things. Again, it is that level of devotion to ones beliefs that constructs a wall of spiritual integrity. That is what I have always respected.

    There is also the vast history of artistic expression by way of biblical lore that draws me, as an outsider, to the Catholic religion. Some of the greatest most beautiful works of both art and architecture have been inspired by the traditional Catholic beliefs. Catholicism itself is aesthetically pleasing to the eyes and ears. Such a reason may seem superficial to you and perhaps it is but I would be lying if I said otherwise. So that coupled with the sheer idealistic ballsyness of its followers is why I think I am attracted Catholicism more than any other.

    Of course...."I am not Catholic" - and I never will be.
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    Do you admire AIDS for spreading as it has? I think religion should not be measured by its capacity for growth - as some meme - but what its consequences are, what it does to people.
    In the case of Christianity, it strips the value of human lives, makes strength a vice and negates any understanding of a higher man.

    I suggest reading the Antichrist by Friedrich Nietzsche, in it he comments on the Renaissance and the art some attribute to Christianity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    Do you admire AIDS for spreading as it has?
    Here's an answer for ya' ....Yes.

    Why wouldn't I? A virus is a work of evolution; evolution responding, for one reason or another, to the human species with utmost hostility. Sharks kill people. Should I not admire them for the efficiency in which they do so.?

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    I think religion should not be measured by its capacity for growth - as some meme - but what its consequences are, what it does to people.
    I think it should be measured by both.

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    In the case of Christianity, it strips the value of human lives, makes strength a vice and negates any understanding of a higher man.
    I think Christianity challenges the value of human life or better yet challenges the value of ones own personal integrity and sense of compassion. Many have faced that challenge and have overcome it by using their Christian beliefs for the sake of good. Others have not.

    And who is this "Higher Man" you speak of? One who is just as easily corrupted by money, politics, or any other philosophy/ideology? There is no "Higher Man" - just "Man".

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    I suggest reading the Antichrist by Friedrich Nietzsche, in it he comments on the Renaissance and the art some attribute to Christianity.
    When I see the Sistine Chapel or the Last Supper I see works of art that, in one way or another, have been inspired by Christian beliefs. When I walk into a six hundred year old cathedral where a choir is performing traditional Catholic hymns what I see and what I hear is pure expressionism and it is something that moves me on an emotional level. However the two are connected does not detour my immediate human response. All that matters is that they are connected. All I am doing is commenting on the long history of that relation and how I am drawn to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    Do you admire AIDS for spreading as it has?
    Here's an answer for ya' ....Yes.

    Why wouldn't I? A virus is a work of evolution; evolution responding, for one reason or another, to the human species with utmost hostility. Sharks kill people. Should I not admire them for the efficiency in which they do so.?
    Actually, we kill sharks. If you want a real killer, look no further than those stingrays. As for evolution, it is not responding for any reason. It is an emergent process, following natural selection. I hardly see what it has to do with admiring anything. If you admire primary, destructive forces - I find it difficult to see how you can admire christianity, unless you have very low standards for admiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    I think religion should not be measured by its capacity for growth - as some meme - but what its consequences are, what it does to people.
    I think it should be measured by both.
    Why? Mind you, Nietzsche discusses why he thinks it grew so fast - but I think we both know you aren't going to read it. Or am I being presumptuous?

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    In the case of Christianity, it strips the value of human lives, makes strength a vice and negates any understanding of a higher man.
    I think Christianity challenges the value of human life or better yet challenges the value of ones own personal integrity and sense of compassion. Many have faced that challenge and have overcome it by using their Christian beliefs for the sake of good. Others have not.
    Personal integrity? It teaches you that a being that designed the universe cares for you, has a plan for you, and wants you near 'Him' when you die. That's not integrity, it's masturbation. As for compassion, please. The 'best' Christian of the 20th century was Mother Theresa, and you should take a look at what she thought about suffering. Christopher Hitchens did a good documentary on it - available through Youtube methinks. Alternatively, read his book 'The Missionary Position'.

    And who is this "Higher Man" you speak of? One who is just as easily corrupted by money, politics, or any other philosophy/ideology? There is no "Higher Man" - just "Man".
    He is a wanderer, a climber who lives amongst ice and high mountains. Hey, if you want to praise equality - sure - praise Christianity. They came up with that 'all are equal before God' stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    I suggest reading the Antichrist by Friedrich Nietzsche, in it he comments on the Renaissance and the art some attribute to Christianity.
    When I see the Sistine Chapel or the Last Supper I see works of art that, in one way or another, have been inspired by Christian beliefs. When I walk into a six hundred year old cathedral where a choir is performing traditional Catholic hymns what I see and what I hear is pure expressionism and it is something that moves me on an emotional level. However the two are connected does not detour my immediate human response. All that matters is that they are connected. All I am doing is commenting on the long history of that relation and how I am drawn to it.
    Yeah, read the Antichrist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    Actually, we kill sharks. If you want a real killer, look no further than those stingrays. As for evolution, it is not responding for any reason. It is an emergent process, following natural selection. I hardly see what it has to do with admiring anything.
    LoL, Then why did you bring it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    Personal integrity? It teaches you that a being that designed the universe cares for you, has a plan for you, and wants you near 'Him' when you die. That's not integrity, it's masturbation. As for compassion, please. The 'best' Christian of the 20th century was Mother Theresa, and you should take a look at what she thought about suffering. Christopher Hitchens did a good documentary on it - available through Youtube methinks. Alternatively, read his book 'The Missionary Position'.
    I never said Christianity taught integrity I said it challenged it.

    I don't think you're quite getting me here, H.U.

    Let me see if I can break this down for you to as a basic a level as possible.

    Yes, Friedrich Nietzsche had extremely ill feeling towards Christian beliefs. I don't necessarily see it as a perfect all shining golden rose either. Yet regardless, Christianity-Catholicism has left a fascinating mark on human history. I don't have to agree with it's teachings in order to find that history to be dynamic and provocative and in some cases even beautiful. Many people have had to struggle with their Christian ordinance and in contrast to all of it's damaging decree have maintained a sense of genuine righteousness yet never at the expense of simply giving up and casting off their religion as a lost cause. To me that is spiritual integrity. That is what I respect and admire.
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    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
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    If the hallmark of thing to follow is based on the scale of its numbers and its resilience to time, we should all be worshiping stupidity and sex.
    Wolf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    No, not particularly. I think that Catholicism has had the most remarkable history of all religions and is, in many ways, the most tragic. Say what you will but it is certainly not a religion of banal character. So from a romantic point of view I find it to be rather intriguing and in some cases even admirable.
    And probably over the years caused directly or indirectly more deaths than Stalin, Hitler and a few other put together... but you know all that and what religion hasn't had crackpots who practice genicide behind their own shield.
    This level of ignorant statement is beneath Megabrain's dignity. This is something only a pea-brain could even consider.

    Among them, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are responsible for more human deaths than all deaths ever caused under religious motivation. Articles on this topic are so numerous, it is a sad commentary on the scholarship of anyone who would make such an ignorant statement.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

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    Can we get some cites on that? I want to see figures accountable for all deaths from roughly 6,000BC to today.

    Please divide the deaths among those caused by pure political action, and those caused by pure religious motivation.

    By religious motivation I mean someone (or a group of someones) who were motivated entirely by religion, with no outside factors involved whatsoever.

    By political action I mean an act of the leadership of a nation based entirely on the political doctrine without any influence or motivation from religion of any kind.

    Once we have those numbers, we can move forward on the argument of whether religion or politics have killed more people.
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    The big problem with Wolf’s request is that while there is a plethora of information posted on the internet, finding unbiased just plain statistical information is difficult.

    There is also the problem of defining the causes of mass deaths in relation to their political or religious motivation. Some attempt to attribute Hitler’s motivation to religion while others agree that it was solely for political power.

    Next problem is to what extent can you attribute potentially associated events. For example, if you attribute WWII in Europe to Hitler, do you also attribute WWII in the Pacific to him. Next is whether you attribute policy decisions that cause death. For example, many deaths attributed to Mao are starvation deaths that resulted from his political policies.

    Next problem would be what weight do you give to percentage of population as opposed to sheer numbers. That is, should we consider the eradication of 50,000 people in a group of 100,000 more or less significant than the eradication of 75,000 people in a population of 1,000,000?

    Or, when you have some leader who is actually politically motivated but uses religion to stir up his followers, do you attribute the resulting deaths to politics or religion?

    We also have a problem of being able to only estimate deaths and the longer ago an event occurred, the more difficult it is to make such estimates. Caesar in his Gallic Wars does not ever come out and say, “Well, thank Juno, we wiped out 6,276 Gauls today.” And even if we had such counts, how much would have been actual and how much braggadocio?

    My feeling is that a lot of people after looking at a large number of analyses will select those which support their preconceived bias.

    I have tried, below, to provide a couple of links to sites which I think are providing reasonably unbiased estimates to deaths caused by various individuals or groups motivated by various things.

    This link looks mostly at Mao caused deaths compared to Stalin and Hitler.
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=47616


    The following two links are from the same source. Their stats attempt to provide both high and low estimates of the various events they describe.

    Deaths prior to 20th Century --
    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

    War deaths of the 20th Century
    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  33. #32  
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    In the end, if you can't stand by a figure, don't quote it.
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    I am not sure what Wolf is trying to say there; but when it comes to estimates, you have estimates.

    It would appear to me that Wolf may have looked at the numbers and found that they do not even come close to suggesting that religious motivation has produced anywhere near the numbers of deaths as non-religious motivation.

    When they talk about the Crusades, which anti Christians love to paint them as the most dispicable events in history, the high estimates are in the 100s of thousands compared to the lowest estimates for Mao, Stalin and Hitler being in the millions.

    I think anyone can stand by those figures to the extent that any one of those dispicable despots is responsible for the loss of more human lives than the Crusades.

    And, if you actually go through the pre-20th Century stats on the one site and take all the deaths remotely attributed to religiously motivated conflicts, they do not add up the the lowest estimates of the deaths unquestionably attributed to political motivations. And the disparity is even greater when the 20th Century is figured in.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner

    When they talk about the Crusades, which anti Christians love to paint them as the most dispicable events in history, the high estimates are in the 100s of thousands compared to the lowest estimates for Mao, Stalin and Hitler being in the millions.

    I think anyone can stand by those figures to the extent that any one of those dispicable despots is responsible for the loss of more human lives than the Crusades.
    Mao, Stalin and Hitler used religious ideologies as the means to their ends. So, you can add in those numbers to the Crusades.

    And by the way, defending your cults past atrocities does not bode well for you or your cult.
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  36. #35  
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    Because I suspect not everyone will go to those links, I want to put up this chart (formatting somewhat off) which the one site considers the 21 highet death causing organized activities in history. Neither The Crusades nor Muslim conquests even appear on this chart


    Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

    Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
    1 55 million Second World War 20C
    2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
    3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
    4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
    5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
    6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
    7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
    8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
    9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
    10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
    11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
    12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
    13 15 million First World War 20C
    14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
    15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
    16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
    17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
    18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C
    19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
    20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
    21 3 million French Wars of Religion 16C

    As anyone can plainly see, even if the numbers are way off, there are not of religiously motivated activities in the list.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    As anyone can plainly see, even if the numbers are way off, there are not of religiously motivated activities in the list.
    I'm not sure I'd group them as atheistic though....
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  38. #37  
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    (q) finally admit that atheism is a religion:

    Mao, Stalin and Hitler used religious ideologies as the means to their ends.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Atheism is not a religion, it is a theological position. You can be an atheist and still model yourself a buddhist, even a Christian, look at Lloyd Geering for example.

    Hitler used Christianity and was influenced by Christianity, though the question of how Christian was Hitler is an open one. Facism is theologically neutral, you can believe in God or not believe in God and still be a fascist. It's probably safe to say that the vast majority of the worlds fascists were god believers.

    Communism is largely a religious ideology anyways. It contains prophecy, the withering away of the state, a cosmic struggle between the working classes and the capitalist and worship/reverence directed towards the leader. Just because its theological position is Atheist doesn't make atheism the religion of communism.


    daytonturner:
    I'd be very interested to read how you would define the word religion.
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  40. #39 Re: Customer Service 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    If I wanted to become a religious person which religion - which doctrine of faith - would you consider to be the best choice?

    By "You" I mean anyone responding to this post who considers them selves to be a spiritual person. If you would please, share with me your religious beliefs and why.

    Thank you.
    hard one no?
    there is only one god and people call it diffrent names
    belive in that god and you are in the right way.
    That does not mean that there are brothers there that annot help you out.
    but like i sayed tere is only 1 god in this universe.
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    As anyone can plainly see, even if the numbers are way off, there are not of religiously motivated activities in the list.
    That's speculative at best. Closer inspection may (and I believe will) show that religion has had an influence somewhere, just as many other things have.

    But what does that tell us? That maybe when you take something as broad as religion, which directly or indirectly effects a vast a majority of the world's population throughout history, is it entirely accurate to place all the blame on that single facet? If a large group of people all have a similar trait, the trait can only be blamed specifically if every person exhibited the same reaction, right?

    In short, if religion was the single defining factor in a person becoming "evil," then it would follow that anyone influenced by religion would be proportionately evil, right?

    I'd argue that religion is both too broad reaching and too open to interpretation to be a single source for problems. Other factors must be involved. For example, I had a religious upbringing and still keep in contact with some aspects of religion...but I don't have the desire (or see the intelligence in) harming others, etc. If religion was the taint that caused those issues, would I not be inclined towards such violence simply because of my experiences with religion?
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    (q) finally admit that atheism is a religion:

    Mao, Stalin and Hitler used religious ideologies as the means to their ends.
    In response, the FSM came down in a cloud and said: "The Appendage, the Noodley Appendage, mozzareliuous and grated, longstrozzapreti, and abounding in parmesan and pesto..."
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Because I suspect not everyone will go to those links, I want to put up this chart (formatting somewhat off) which the one site considers the 21 highet death causing organized activities in history. Neither The Crusades nor Muslim conquests even appear on this chart

    As anyone can plainly see, even if the numbers are way off, there are not of religiously motivated activities in the list.
    Deception is such an easy pick.

    Let's use an analogy, like gravity, for example, to expose the deception.

    We have many small objects of mass and a group of slightly larger ones. If we compared them, we would find the gravity of the larger object to be stronger than one of the smaller objects.

    However, if we clump ALL of the smaller objects together to form one large mass, we find that this larger mass will have a stronger gravity than one of the slightly larger masses.

    Your list of individually slightly larger objects has been overwhelmed.
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