Thread: Are atheists agnostics?

Since recently becoming agnostic is dawned on me, agnostics will believe or disbelieve in the existence of God whether evidence suggests one way or the other which helps strengthen the arguments behind both to ultimatley prove or disprove God(s). So by definiton the scientific method employs the need to view and analyse evidence before drawing a conclusion. Understandable by now atheists I can understand their disbelief, evidence currently strongly points against the existence of God. However if evidence actually went in favour of there being a God, or ultimatley God's existence was proven using logical support and evidence, would not then atheists believe in the existence of God?

In effect atheists will believe in God if God was shown to exist with evidence, so in effect are they not agnostic?

Definitions:

The Scientific Method:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

Agnostic:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Agnosticism (from the Greek a, meaning "without", and gnosticism or gnosis, meaning "knowledge") is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable due to the nature of subjective experience.

Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while individual certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism. Some agnostics are termed agnostic theists since, while they do not claim to know any deity exists, they do believe (with varying degrees on skepticism) in, at least, one.

Atheist:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] alternatively called nontheism.[4] Although atheism is often equated with irreligion, some religious philosophies, such as secular theology and some varieties of Buddhism such as Theravada, either do not include belief in a personal god as a tenet of the religion, or actively teach nontheism.

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism[5] and naturalism,[6] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[7]

I do not believe in and god as in the traditional sense, ie some form of omnipresent intelligent super being waving a magic wand.

I worship the universe because that created me, without it I would not exist, I am in total awe of it's structure, I care not how it came into being, I just hope it stays around for a while yet.


THe only possibility I see of there being a 'god' is if we are no more than a computer simulation in an alien game called 'runescape' but the computer is so intelligent we really believe we are 'real' if this is the case I can see it might only take six days to write it with the author taking a breather on the seventh. THis could also explain miracles, and dummies.

Another possibility is that I am a newboen lamb, asleep, and dreaming of what it might be like to be human.

All these and many other scenarios are possible but a god, in the traditional sense? Don't make me laugh!!

Originally Posted by svwillmer

In effect atheists will believe in God if God was shown to exist with evidence, so in effect are they not agnostic?

" There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing."

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena,

Which phenomena would you like to see investigated in order to establish the existence (or otherwise) of God? Personal mental phenomena are excluded since they cannot be shared or demonstrated for others to experience.

Originally Posted by svwillmer

Are atheists agnostics?

just a month ago, a very similar thread/poll was posted by SPT
http://www.thescienceforum.com/Are-a...ists-9300t.php
this thread is a bit dry how about a new subject matter.
just flipping the words isn't going to make the poll any different.

Oh yea, right forgot about that. No wonder it was still in my mind 8). Still I believe that my point can remain valid for the reasons I have defined above.

Both agnostics and atheists will believe:

Wherefore God also hath hightly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, and things under earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:9-11, KJV

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Both agnostics and atheists will believe:

Wherefore God also hath hightly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, and things under earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:9-11, KJV

I would have to be skeptical of such a straight forward literal interpretation of this passage. It just doesn't agree with my observations of human behavior which demonstrate a great deal of perversity and stubborness in believing the unbelievable and disbelieving what it seems that every rational person would believe. I just don't believe that a magical revelation of the truth is possible and so I find it far more likely that the vast majority will remain in ignorance.

As for the meaning of the passage, eschatalogy is not my forte or interest -- frankly, whatever will be will be. I can therefore only offer one possible alternative interpretation and that is that a point will come when every living person on the earth will so confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, simply because the doubters will have moved elsewhere.

As for the topic of this thread and the OP, I must say poppycock! Atheist, agnostic and theist are terms refering to what we do in fact believe and not what we might believe if such and such were to occur. You might as well say that we are all atheists because one day there might be absolute and conclusive proof that there is no God. Plain nonsense.

Well, hey! It's not that I have much expectation that I will see this glorious day on this side of the grave. It may not even be a day on earth. I don't understand this to be saying that all will worship, only that all will accede to the authority of Jesus. I have no particular opinion as to whether non-believers are removed or whether they become worshiping believers. However, if we believe there is a judgement day, certainly at that day all will believe, some with rejoicing others with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

others with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I'm concerned for the denture wearers. Will gumming be an acceptable option for them?

Originally Posted by Bunbury

I'm concerned for the denture wearers. Will gumming be an acceptable option for them?

I am afraid many Christians would say that they will be given newly resurrected teeth just so they can gnash them with abandon.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

However, if we believe there is a judgement day, certainly at that day all will believe, some with rejoicing others with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes but my point is that this image and generalization just doesn't fit with my observations of humanity. Most I know don't gnash their teeth no matter what they are faced with - which is just another reason not to take this quite so literally. In my experience, if there is such a universal judgement, some will go laughing and mocking, some will go with stubborn disbelief insisting the whole experience is a delusion on their deathbed, some will go with anger, shouting accusations with every breath, some will act like they cannot even see what is in front of their faces, some will march in with delusional confidence and go down insisting that they are the greatest thing ever to be seen on earth or in heaven. I figure that those who actually go to such a judgement with fear, repentance, or regret will actually be far from the majority.

All atheists - or rather, all scientifically inclined atheists who deduce through reason - are agnostic in acknowledging that God cannot be disproven. However, we are predominantly (which is the defining facet) atheist in postulating that the probability of God is very low, close to zero, although it cannot be absolutely zero.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

However, if we believe there is a judgement day, certainly at that day all will believe, some with rejoicing others with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And those who think judgment day to be an adolescent fairy tale, wonder how Christians could possible carry their holier than thou smugness anywhere, let alone into heaven?

Originally Posted by (Q)

Originally Posted by daytonturner

However, if we believe there is a judgement day, certainly at that day all will believe, some with rejoicing others with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And those who think judgment day to be an adolescent fairy tale, wonder how Christians could possible carry their holier than thou smugness anywhere, let alone into heaven?

Said the pot to the kettle.

Understanding that you cannot prove that a god does not exist does not imply you are therefore agnostic.

Nothing but nothing could or will ever convince me of the existence of a god. Every fibre of my body rejects the notion of a deity, even though I cannot prove it does not exist.

Were what you define as a god to present itself to me and say "Mega, I created the world, look and I will put another planet around the sun" THat is still NOT proof that god made this world.

God is a hypothesis to explain the phenomenon of existence, it has been with man for probably well over 10,000 years, now we have a new hypothesis (evolution) which is so supported by observation that it is accepted as a theory.

Maybe your fixation with non-belief is due to fear? :?

Fear of what?

I don't know. Its just one of those psychological things you hear about.

Originally Posted by svwillmer

I don't know. Its just one of those psychological things you hear about.

"When the disease of stiffness starts it badly engulfs the whole body"

That is the first line of the atricle to link to. Not aq problem at my age and never has been, maybe when I am dead 'ol riggers' might get me.

Now what is there to be afraid of?

Many atheists like myself know we are going to die, understand it will be final, and accept that we cannot live for ever. We are carried on through our successors (children), why worry in life about what happens when you die (unless you just want to get there quicker! what were you before you were a conscious entity?

I have no 'fixation with non-belief' since it is not an obseeive preoccupation I have, I merely laid out my view.

As I said it is time to accept the new theory that states we evolved from some form of "Primordial protoplasmic atomic globule" [see Pooh Bah, The Mikardo, GIlbert and Sullivan Act one Scene 1.]

Originally Posted by svwillmer

Maybe your fixation with non-belief is due to fear? :?

There there willmer - playing agent provocateur again? Is this the third, or fourth thread you've started in which you have passive-aggressively tried to make out that there's a psychological flaw in atheists (bad upbringing, anger, low self-image etc).

Tut tut. Behave now. 8)

Just making an observation. I wouldn't have thought up the idea unless something influenced me subconsciously to do that. I don't pick fights, they pick me. :P

No, we are not agnostic. We are truth seekers who prefer the more logical approach... going with science then blindly believing in something that has given us no reason to believe in it. IF (big if) god did present himself to us and inform us that he exists. Then the truth is before us and we would be fools to not believe in him. But as it stands right now. We have no reason to believe in him and we would be fools to believe in a being that has shown no signs at all that he exists.

Originally Posted by verzen

No, we are not agnostic. We are truth seekers who prefer the more logical approach... going with science then blindly believing in something that has given us no reason to believe in it. IF (big if) god did present himself to us and inform us that he exists. Then the truth is before us and we would be fools to not believe in him. But as it stands right now. We have no reason to believe in him and we would be fools to believe in a being that has shown no signs at all that he exists.

So agnostics are in the middle ground between believers and atheists? Thats a quite interesting argument. In my last belief of God which is now going, He has put me in the middle now. But why?

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Understanding that you cannot prove that a god does not exist does not imply you are therefore agnostic.

You are objectively agnostic to that specific regard. Whether or not you leave it at that or continue on to a certain probability is how atheism defines its predominance in a person.

It's like how everyone is an atheist in pertinence to not believing in Zeus or Thor or Apollo. Nobody is theistic to that precise degree, but may be Christian or Muslim in consideration of what predominantly defines their belief system.

All that means is that we're not comprised of black-and-white principles, to the discredit of many a criticism. That's all. I often stress this because I've had, "You can't disprove God, so what's your intent?" put forth to me too many times, and feel it necessary to make clear where atheists stand.

Originally Posted by svwillmer

Originally Posted by verzen

No, we are not agnostic. We are truth seekers who prefer the more logical approach... going with science then blindly believing in something that has given us no reason to believe in it. IF (big if) god did present himself to us and inform us that he exists. Then the truth is before us and we would be fools to not believe in him. But as it stands right now. We have no reason to believe in him and we would be fools to believe in a being that has shown no signs at all that he exists.

So agnostics are in the middle ground between believers and atheists? Thats a quite interesting argument. In my last belief of God which is now going, He has put me in the middle now. But why?

Because if religion itself is true, then there are no true religions. They are all interpretations of the same thing. If you take one belief structure, give the exact same structure to 10 people. Send each one of those people to SEPERATE ends of the world... then wait 10,000 years.. what happans?