December 19th, 2007, 04:43 PM
If they don't believe in God why perform a religious act? Marriage derives from religion. Can atheists get married in chruch without being contradictory, can they get married at all without being contradictory? If marriage comes from religion shoudl atheists be taken seriously if they want to get married? By that I mean should those who don't believe in something be able to use something from that which they don't believe? No offense here folks :wink:.
Marriage involves the state more than God. I couldn't care less if God recognized the marriage so long as the state did.
But it derives from religion so its hypocritcal of you isn't it? No offense :wink:.Originally Posted by Neutrino
Where it "derives from" really doesn't matter, what matters is how it works today. I'm not convinced it has a religious origin anyway, I'd tend to think it was more a social institution or political tool than something that sprang from religion.
Nope its religious. Anyone atheist who gets married is contradictory, sort of. I've struck a nerve haven't I. No offense again :wink:.
You haven't struck a nerve at all, I find it completely irrelevent whether it's of religious origin or not. I'm not married anyway :P Besides like I said I am not convinced it even is of religious origin. I will say though that catholic weddings are really..freakin..annoyingly..long
And tombstones were used so there'd be something for a corpse to hit its head on and get knocked out, in case it rose from the grave. But we still use tombstones, because they're nice. I remember something about wedding rings being symbolic of a woman's shackles, but we still use rings, because they're nice.
I'll tell you what's truly hypocritical though - Christians who badmouth science and evolution then log off, drive to the pharmacy and pick up their antibiotics. Now THERE'S some hypocrisy for you :P Nevermind the fact that antibiotic regimens are based on evolution, but couldn't they just pray for healing?
Sorry, off topic i know :P
December 19th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Honestly though, i don't plan on getting married in a church nor will i have a funeral in one. I don't belong to the christian faith. The wedding i'll compromise on, if the extremely lucky lady cares for that sort of thing. The funeral, no way. I want to go out like a viking, in a burning boat.
And how do you know this, since the institution of marriage pre-dates recorded history?
Please site references.
I think he's referring to your standard western wedding, in a christian church, in front of an ordained christian minister. That is definately a christian ceremony.
True...but that's not the only way to get married. What about a Justice of the Peace wedding?...has nothing to do with God or religion.
yeah. I know a few people who've had handfastings. More than one way to skin a cat. I wouldn't mind a cheesy vegas wedding, in front o' the king. Or inside a real ufo, alleged god willing. This is why the guy has no say in the wedding.
Oh hell ya...and the ceremony would last about 30 seconds.
Fat 70's Elvis: "Do you, Mac, promise not to fuck anybody else, and put up with her shit for the rest of your life?"
Mac: "If I have to."
Elvis: "How 'bout you, babe?"
Mac's fiance: "What he said."
I went for a bath. I'm not bad mouthing science, I love it and believe evolution true. As I keep saying MY religion. I don't take any anti-biotics. I don't do any intoxicants, I'm clean. I don't pray to God to get better unless I'm in great pain. I just put up with it.
So TvEye you'd rather be burned alive than have a funeral? Sounds like your cutting your nose off to spite your face. No offense again. 8)
Ummm, no. You're already dead when you're in the boat. It was a viking funeral rite. I just think it'd be cooler than a boring church service. People get to shoot burning arrows at a boat.
I plan to have my wake BEFORE I die. I want to live my last party, not be underground or carbon in the sky while everyone's getting kaylied.
That's assuming you know when you're going to die..what if your last words are "What bus?"
We're getting off-topic....we need to get back to marriage.
SV, how are you so sure marriage is based in religion?
http://ks.essortment.com/historyofmarri_rimr.htm
Found that, not sure if its good enough. :?
December 19th, 2007, 06:58 PM
You really need to research a subject before you post up an inane question.
Most tribal and ancient societies need/needed a secure environment for the perpetuation of the species, a system of rules to handle the granting of property rights, and the protection of bloodlines. The institution of marriage handled these needs.
Different periods of time and different cultures have very different histories when it comes to marriage.
Women in Ancient Egypt, in theory, had equal rights, but it wasn't always practiced.
marriage is not simply a religious sacrament, marriage is a bond between two people that involves responsibility and legalities, as well as commitment and challenge. That concept of marriage hasn't changed through the ages.
A form of marriage has been around since time began, religion just gave it a bit more ritual tis all.
Im a married athiest
You really try to link athiesm and theism dont you? is that to make yourself feel better about your faith?
Neutrino said:
It is rather interesting that you separate the two, just as Christians do. Except they don't bad mouth science per se, but do bad mouth some of the conclusions some people draw from the scientific data relating to evolution.Christians who badmouth science and evolution
This is a constant stupid harangue of the uneducated anti-religious who have no idea what religious people think. If you hold the entirety of Christianity to the views a small percentage of the whole, why should we not condemn the entire scientific community because a few of them believe in UFOs?
What science do Christians badmouth? Some creation speculation and some evolutionary conclusions. What else?
No, just trying to get along with atheists unlike my other religious friends :?Im a married athiest
You really try to link athiesm and theism dont you? is that to make yourself feel better about your faith?
I agree. Christians as other religions should be allowed to defend something they believe in just as atheists do, and rather abruptly too. Some atheists don't value the opinion of Christians because they are 'delusional'. But just look at the number of Christains in the world against atheists.
How do you want an athiest to value your opinion? like i said bedore, the best i can offer is i believe that you believe in a god, i also believe that some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster to the exact same degree, as you yourself should alsoI agree. Christians as other religions should be allowed to defend something they believe in just as atheists do, and rather abruptly too. Some atheists don't value the opinion of Christians because they are 'delusional'. But just look at the number of Christains in the world against atheists.
Not sure what theres more christians than athiests actually proves, if it is actually provable, some people call themselves christians(or c of e)on forms for many other reasons than actual belief, In many parts of the world, the US included it would not be wise to speak out and admit to being an athiest in a religious community, which is why the OUT campaign is a new idea
As for the UK(as we both live there), on an average sunday more people go to the shrine of B&Q or garden centres than of churches
You cant quote there are more of one type of person than another, as there is no physical or true way of telling,that is a fact :-D
Who bothers going to chruch? I only go on rememberance day. I can worship God any time I want, I do that by thanking Him wherever I go and when he does His daily things for me. Its a shame the yank atheists have to be fearful of speaking out about Christianity. So much for Jesus' word.
Does it matter how atheists get married? Or even if they get married at all?
Huh? If you're wondering why your breath smells like farts...it's because you're talking out of your ass.
I'm an athiest in the center of the Bible belt. I'm not fearful of talking about my beliefs to anyone. You seem to be under the impression that being an atheist means that you are anti-Christian. I don't "speak out" about any religion. As long as your religious beliefs don't break the law...then as far as I'm concerned, you can worship whatever you want.
(Just for me) I would appreciate if you would not use the term "Yank" to describe all Americans. I'm from Texas, and calling someone a Yankee is an insult. Them's fightn' words.
Why are believers so worried about atheists?
I worry about Christians. Why do Christians get divorced more than atheists?
sv i think you may have got mixed between getting married and getting married in church because in the UK a wedding in church covers both the legal and the religious aspect of getting married
in e.g. Belgium you first have to get married in a civil ceremony before you can get married in church - so in a way getting married in church is only an add-on should you feel like it
American = Yank
Huh? If you're wondering why your breath smells like farts...it's because you're talking out of your ass.
I'm an athiest in the center of the Bible belt. I'm not fearful of talking about my beliefs to anyone. You seem to be under the impression that being an atheist means that you are anti-Christian. I don't "speak out" about any religion. As long as your religious beliefs don't break the law...then as far as I'm concerned, you can worship whatever you want.
(Just for me) I would appreciate if you would not use the term "Yank" to describe all Americans. I'm from Texas, and calling someone a Yankee is an insult. Them's fightn' words.
Englander = Tommy
Their was a post previously about one not wanting to speak out as it could be dangerous-I was responsding to that.
Don't worry I won't call you a yank. Whats a nickname for the Texan's then?
American = Yank
Huh? If you're wondering why your breath smells like farts...it's because you're talking out of your ass.
I'm an athiest in the center of the Bible belt. I'm not fearful of talking about my beliefs to anyone. You seem to be under the impression that being an atheist means that you are anti-Christian. I don't "speak out" about any religion. As long as your religious beliefs don't break the law...then as far as I'm concerned, you can worship whatever you want.
(Just for me) I would appreciate if you would not use the term "Yank" to describe all Americans. I'm from Texas, and calling someone a Yankee is an insult. Them's fightn' words.
Englander = Tommy
Their was a post previously about one not wanting to speak out as it could be dangerous-I was responsding to that.
Don't worry I won't call you a yank. Whats a nickname for the Texan's then?
Sorry to pick up on this one, but surely as a brit you should know better, Tommy was a nickname for British soldiers that originated in the first world war, so its for soldiers and more specifically British soldiers, not sure where you got "Englander" from?
If you want the American slang for the British then the most well known is Limey and the australians use the term Pommie or PomTommy Atkins (often just Tommy) is a term for a common soldier in the British Army that is particularly associated with World War I. German soldiers would call out to Tommy across no man's land if they wished to speak to a British soldier. French and Commonwealth troops would also call British soldiers "Tommies". In more recent times, the term Tommy Atkins has been used less frequently, although the name "Tom" is occasionally still heard, especially with regard to paratroopers
I was going to say Tommy for Brits, for some reason I changed to Englander :?.
But it is only a term that applies to soldiers, and not the general public like yanks :wink:
Thanks, IQ up 0.001But it is only a term that applies to soldiers, and not the general public like yanks :wink:
wow! thats 0.001 higher than most religious people, it appears your one of the clever ones. lolThanks, IQ up 0.001But it is only a term that applies to soldiers, and not the general public like yanks :wink:
What can I do for a living now?wow! thats 0.001 higher than most religious people, it appears your one of the clever ones. lolThanks, IQ up 0.001But it is only a term that applies to soldiers, and not the general public like yanks :wink:
start a cult ?
Oh I am certainly not claiming all Christians do it. I'm just complaining about the ones that do. If you want an example right here go look at creation's posts. Chrstians like him are a dime a dozen on message boards - their favorite word is "assumption" which they use to try and undermine whatever their particular topic is that they don't like. Usually it's evolution. With creation it happens to be the "state of the past universe" or some such. But it could be about geology because they want to believe in the Flood. It could be about radioactive dating because they want a 6000 year old earth. It could be about damn near anything
after all, the good book, full of contradictions as it may be, cannot be allowed to be wrong - what are the musings of mere scientists against the word of god ?
at least that's what i think the basic thinking behind the criticisms of science is about
Yup. Although I think Christians don't want to critise science, just ensure that atheists don't critise it in a way that would be offensive. Take me for instance, I'd rather make myself sound stupid than insult you lot. Whereas other Christians may not. But thats me and my interpretation and beliefs mixed with most of the Bible. Being honest all I follow in The Bible is this:
1: Ten Commandments
2: Jesus' top two commandments
3: The Beatittudes
4: Accept Christ as my saviour
Everything from that is my own belief. Which is why I rile a lot of Christians with my belief-I don't fit them. I try to tidy up and only believe those things about the Bible, the main things-the stuff less likely to have been changed.
A legal marriage (a legal binding between two people) is not the same as holy matrimony (the religious union of two people). I plan on getting married in a completely non-religious way. It is not contradictory, since marriage is a legal binding that can be religious.
But most likely comes from religious origin. Theres no escaping it, thats why the rest of the posters here stopped and tried to change the subject before that.
Who cares, it's tradition.
By religious, do you mean christian? Because if that's the case, then you are wrong. A union between a man and a wife has existed long before christianity ever came along. Just because the christians did it too doesn't make it a christian thing.But most likely comes from religious origin. Theres no escaping it, thats why the rest of the posters here stopped and tried to change the subject before that.
I think the concept of 'legal' marriage was created in order to make sure rightful heirs to lands are recognized legally.
A marriage in the 'sight of god' is hokum.
Sight of God? Whattareya tlakin' about?
Uh OP. You really have no idea wtf you are talking about. Marriage was originally created as a way to combine land, or as a peace offering. Women back then were used as objects of value. Pretty much, "I'll trade you 10 acres for that beautiful blonde daughter of yours" type of thing. The only reason religion is even a PART of that, is because religion tries so hard to get into politics. It's a very controling organisation that attempts to control humanity in it's grip. If you notice, all religious people who were not christians back then were labeled as pagans or heretics and were killed. Most people converted to christianity to prevent from being killed, or mutilated in some way. Thats why it got so big so fast compared to all other older religions. Then you have your disputes within christianity that even get involved in politics. The protestants vs the catholics in england for instance. Mary mutilated protestants, then Elizabeth came around and killed all the catholics. Thus, since Elizabeth won, mary was thus, "Bloody Mary."
Thats a little brief history on the christian control over political matters.
Thats your opinion, and it is noted.
Wow, when did fact become opinionated ignorance? Thats whats so wrong with religion these days and why so many scientists are athiests. Because religious people don't take kindly to factual evidance of science. Your just like those christian scientists who don't believe dinosaurs walked the earth.
I do believe dinosaurs once lived on Earth and that evolution is true. You'll never understand because you make no attempt to.
No I understand. Ive done plenty of research on the subject.
Fact: Every political party in the world bases their moral laws and code of conduct on a religious teaching. (except for certain individuals, but they were insane to begin with)
Fact: Every political party in the world is influenced by religion in one way or another
Fact: The majority of political influence is by christianity
Fact: Religion is the cause of more wars then disputes based on non-religious acts.
Ah, so you don't believe in the bible?
Where in The Bible does it say the Dinosaurs or evolution did or did not exist. As I've said before, tThe Bible has a lot of non-God words in it.Ah, so you don't believe in the bible?
When God says about The Earth and man being made, mabe the days were eons. Don't forget God is omnieverything, its no wonder we know f all.
Really? Whatever you say. Are arguments with your family and friends religious based?
Typical human behaviour, its not my fault, its not your fault. Always trying to place the blame on something else.
If there was no religion on Earth you'd still have a lot of problems and conflicts. Where man twists the word of God to get his own way, to satisfy his lust, greed his envy.
How can you believe in something that was written by man... the new testement was written 300 years AFTER the death of christ. The bible ALWAYS changes and the church assigns its saints as if they were above the one god they worship...
Funny, I never knew that arguments with my family were political matters...Really? Whatever you say. Are arguments with your family and friends religious based?
Typical human behaviour, its not my fault, its not your fault. Always trying to place the blame on something else.
If there was no religion on Earth you'd still have a lot of problems and conflicts. Where man twists the word of God to get his own way, to satisfy his lust, greed his envy.
The faith and deeds and meekness, the pure of some, gives abilities to see the lies of The Bible.
So your admitting that the bible is all lies.
December 27th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Marriage is not a religious act, and marriage does not derive from religion. Some subset of marriages today involve religious ceremony.
Google "history of marriage" and browse some of the relevant pages.
Nope. Some.
If some are lies, then how can you even trust ANY of the bible? You realise that if someone lies to me, then i'm going to have a hard time trusting anything they say. If a source is filled with a few lies, and a few truths, then you should know that source is not sufficient enough evidance for truth. Thats called being, "Naive" my friend. It also explains alot about your character... You pick the parts of the bible you choose to believe, then throw away the rest. Does this seem logical to you? Ive never met a more illogical person in my life!
I don't pick what I want. I look at the closest to God word:
1: The Ten Commandments
2: Jesus' top two
3: The Beattitudes
And more or less what Jesus said. Jesus sounded very strange so who would change His word if one did not understand it in the first place.
Illogical? Incomphrenisble jargon is the hallmark of profession. Welcome to the forum by the way
My character is very alternated. If I were space I'd be a complex system of different areas of the spaceitme continuum.
I would have thought a vacuum.
Did you know that one of the commandments condones slavery? Do you condone slavery?
Does it? Show me.Did you know that one of the commandments condones slavery? Do you condone slavery?
...his manservant or maidservant. Is this what you mean? Covetting these? God was merley using an example. He didn't say that you could have a slave or not did He. There is a difference between a servant and a slave. The Israelites were slaves. A servant is the same a maid, they live in rich peoples mansions and clean up so how is that slavery? Whos saying that the servants back then were forced to work? The servants got paid in food and shelter etc etc, it was small communities back then with the Israelites, no money.
See? You've taken one meaning and turned it into another. As is common place with getting ones own way.
Exodus 20:2–17
"10. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns."
Deuteronomy 5:6–21
"14 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you."
Uh-huh...See? You've taken one meaning and turned it into another. As is common place with getting ones own way.
Thats not in my Bible. It says servant.
They ARE in the bible, pal. Sorry to burst your fragile ego.Thats not in my Bible. It says servant.
Not in mine, want a scanned picture?
Don't need it, I can read it here fine, thanks.
So, do you condone slavery?
Dude, like I said in another post. YOU CANNOT PROVE something is NOT there. You can only prove that something IS there.
You cannot prove that elves do not exist. You cannot prove that leprechauns do not exist. You cannot prove that something is NOT in a bible. (or can be interpretted as such)
Now I know how SPT feels like. I'm going to learn his lesson here. My Bible is different to yours.Don't need it, I can read it here fine, thanks.
So, do you condone slavery?
I don't agree with slavery. God didn't actually say that you can have slaves though did He? Hm?
these servants, were they free to come and go as they pleased did they get paid, were they bonded.Thats not in my Bible. It says servant.
Slaves were common then, and since men wrote the bible, those men obviously condoned slavery.
OK. Your not going to agree with me and vice versa, so lets stop this, its getting pointless.Slaves were common then, and since men wrote the bible, those men obviously condoned slavery.
Can you prove that man did not write the bible?
No, at least not right now anyway.
Ok, lets end this down svwillmer. The fact that you believe in talking hedgehogs is proof enough that I am right and you are wrong... Yeah....
On a more serious side, "Why believe something you cannot figure out? Faith is a state of being where you put your entire belief in a system that is flawed."
It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You keep putting yourself behind the eight ball and can't get out without getting whacked.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You keep putting yourself behind the eight ball and can't get out without getting whacked.
Your dissing Sonic? tut tut tut.
I was wondering that...why does a 20 year old have characters from a kid's video game in his signature?
Because he was a kid when Sonic made his debut.
Incase you weren't aware, it was a monk that came up with the big bang theory.
You CAN, however, prove that something is a physical impossibility. However, religious people would say that God doesn't need to be possible to exist.
Incase you weren't aware, it was a monk that came up with the big bang theory.
As PhDemon pointed out, Georges Lemaître was a priest, not a monk.
To respond to the 6 year old OP, I got married because it is a government-recognized union that grants me rights in regards to my wife. We had a traditional marriage ceremony because she is Christian and I couldn't care less about the words the person marrying us says.
There is a difference between marriage and holy matrimony, in my opinion. It's the foundation for legalizing gay marriage in our country. It isn't about God anymore.
Because it doesn't derive from religion, any more than the lifetime and faithful mating of turtle doves, gibbons and many other animals.
Interestingly, for US and British members here, its recognition as part of British common law was never religious in it's requirements--it was as simple as two people professing their love and commitment for one another in front of a town authority or saying they had even without witness in the woods. It is still this way in the US with church officials only able to marry people at the behest of the state and having zero autonomous authority to marry without the State's permission and meeting the State's requirements. In short in the US, it's always been a secular event.
My wife and I were married by a JOP 28 years ago in front of a close circle of friends and deeply religious extended family at my inlaws farm house. It was mostly deeply religious Catholics on my side and a slightly less religious group of Methodist on my wife's side. It would have made things somewhat interesting if not for the solid support and attendance by both sets of Grand Parents, who were in many ways more tolerant than many of the younger members. There were many examples of couples running off to get married without family's consent because of ridiculous "they aren't the same religion" arguments on both sides of the family. Think the grandparents were glad we were doing it in the open. Our marriage today one of the longest running and still going strong.
Last edited by Lynx_Fox; September 2nd, 2013 at 05:42 PM.
I'll just point out that Quantime is no longer a Christian and in fact is an atheist at present.
Also, I couldn't give two hoots if Lemaitre was a practising Mesmer magnetic healing kook. Fact is, he produced proper science done according to the scientific method. End of story.
Justice of the Peace.
No religion involved.
I notice this is a resurrected post. Just wanted to comment on this:
I don't agree with this. We must be brave enough to tell people if something they believe is stupid. The truth will be the truth no matter if you like to believe it or not. But I agree that we should not argue with the purpose to offend, we should argue with the purpose to make a point but if you are a strong believer arguments disproving the belief will be offensive even if it's not the intention.just ensure that atheists don't critise it in a way that would be offensive. Take me for instance, I'd rather make myself sound stupid than insult you lot.
People will not change their mind because you think they are wrong.
Telling someone that what they think is stupid is not going to get you anywhere. It is counterproductive.
Discussing your views, without being IN THEIR FACE, might be much more condusive for them to listen and think about what you said.
Frankly, your approach, would not convince me, or make me listen. It would leave me cold and uninterested.
Diplomacy is a wisely learned approach in most aspects of life.
Indeed. The Christian church didn't really begin to consider marriage as a religious thing until the 12th century. It wasn't formally recognised by the church until the 16th century.
I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean telling people to their face that what they believe is stupid. That would be to argue with the intention to offend / insult them. But I think that it's important to argue in a civilized manner with factual arguments against opinions that you concider as stupid and making the one you argue with realize that the belief is stupid with evidence. And not letting it go because you are afraid of offending them. For example creationists that teach their children that dinosaurs and humans lived together and that denies evolution. That offends me because I think it's very ignorant, but they are welcome to voice their opinion anyway. I listen to their arguments and challenge them with facts, and I want them to do the same even if they are scared to offend me. It's free speech and we can't be afraid to discuss with eachother because it might offend them. That does not benefit anyone.People will not change their mind because you think they are wrong.
Telling someone that what they think is stupid is not going to get you anywhere. It is counterproductive.
Discussing your views, without being IN THEIR FACE, might be much more condusive for them to listen and think about what you said.
Frankly, your approach, would not convince me, or make me listen. It would leave me cold and uninterested.
Diplomacy is a wisely learned approach in most aspects of life.
Many atheists don't. They are married in a civil ceremony.
Sure. The only thing that matters in a marriage are the promises you make to the person you are marrying.Can atheists get married in chruch without being contradictory, can they get married at all without being contradictory
You may be making the classic mistake that many religious types make. Churches do not marry two people; two people marry each other.
Please provide evidence that marriage is a religious act.
How do atheist get married?
Godlessly.
(Gee, that was simple. Got any harder questions?)
....................
Nisslbody:
see mark 10:9
and
mathew 19:6
Marriage is a religious act for those who wish it to be one.
Comparatively cheaply.
Mistakenly?
Married for 25, divorced for 10. The latter has been better than the former.
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