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Thread: How do atheists get married?

  1. #201  
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    I also don't condone circumcision of babies, nor halal slaughtering practises, nor a bunch of other religious practises, but to simply denounce every single thing you can connect in some way to religions is extremely silly. You are making a serious fool of yourself in fact.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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    A better term would be 'caution'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
    You've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
    You've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
    For some reason I am now questioning the meaning of the expression, "my right hand man".
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
    You've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
    For some reason I am now questioning the meaning of the expression, "my right hand man".

    Don't. Just don't.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  7. #207  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    Marriage is a big religion thing
    Stop perpetuating this lie.

    Marriage is a legal union. Holy matrimony is a religious union and it is not recognized in the eyes of the law, in my country. To be married, you have to have the proper legal paperwork. Said paperwork does not have to be completed by someone of faith, nor do you have to be of faith to acquire it. Neither the person performing the ceremony nor the attendees have to be of faith, either.

    Just because Christians want to manipulate the law to exclude people not of their faith (which is unconstitutional) does not mean that marriage is now or has ever been a product of religion.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  8. #208  
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    I take it you're actually enjoying your marriage? Heresy!

    I wouldn't be against the removal of marriage entirely, and in a couple more centuries it's a real possibility. From my perspective marriage seems(note there's a difference between 'seems' and 'is' so don't jump on me for this) like a financial bribe, when there are other ways to commit to a relationship like having kids. When marriage is removed, we all know which group will oppose the removal of marriage. Disclaimer: Just thinking out loud, didn't feel like adding substance.
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  9. #209  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    I take it you're actually enjoying your marriage? Heresy!

    I wouldn't be against the removal of marriage entirely, and in a couple more centuries it's a real possibility. From my perspective marriage seems(note there's a difference between 'seems' and 'is' so don't jump on me for this) like a financial bribe, when there are other ways to commit to a relationship like having kids. When marriage is removed, we all know which group will oppose the removal of marriage. Disclaimer: Just thinking out loud, didn't feel like adding substance.
    Some people just don't want their kids to be called bastards. But many women are taught from birth that they are expected to get married to a man that can take care of them. So if your a man and you want the girl, your options are somewhat limited.
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  10. #210  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    I take it you're actually enjoying your marriage? Heresy!
    Yes. I do enjoy it. I wouldn't love my wife less if we weren't married, but I wouldn't have the same legal benefits, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    I wouldn't be against the removal of marriage entirely, and in a couple more centuries it's a real possibility.
    First of all, what makes you think marriage is on its way out? Is there some huge amount of resources being dedicated to eradicating it? Is there massive public support behind disbanding marriage? From what I've seen, at least 10% of the population in America is fighting to be recognized by this institution.

    Secondly, what would be the justification for the huge amount of time and money that would have to be allocated in order to remove the legal union of marriage? Imagine the overhaul that would have to take place in a government so inept they can't pass healthcare reform that would make America like the vast majority of other first world nations.

    Marriage isn't going anywhere just because you don't like it. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    From my perspective marriage seems(note there's a difference between 'seems' and 'is' so don't jump on me for this) like a financial bribe, when there are other ways to commit to a relationship like having kids.
    Is this from your experience of being married?

    What on Earth does "financial bribe" have to do with marriage? Did I miss my big bonus check when the little lady said, "I do"? Is it in the mail?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    When marriage is removed, we all know which group will oppose the removal of marriage. Disclaimer: Just thinking out loud, didn't feel like adding substance.
    "When" is not the appropriate term here. That having been said, this is just more assumption on your part.

    You don't appear to have any real information on the topics you bring up. You just lambaste people with differing ideas. You don't support your opinions in any way.

    You assume marriage is going to be eradicated. You assume Christians are going to get all up in arms. And you just sit there and wallow in your miserable schadenfreude. You need to either find a more constructive use for your time, or start designing your posts to be discussions instead of rants. I'm still waiting for you to bring something of substance to the forum.
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  11. #211  
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    I'm being pedantic, but the question, "how do atheists get married", in the opening post has been annoying me since the thread was resurrected early in September 2013
    I assume the answer to be they have to go through some kind of legal ceremony like everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
    You've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
    Nope. All female equipment!
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  13. #213  
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    Because if you look at marriage for what it is , a practical societal, personal and relational tool - it still serves that tool's purpose.
    When it comes to all things related to religion, faith/superstition is - as always - the superfluous factor.

    You are basicly asking. "If mankind first made a hammer for religious ritual purposes, why does Atheists use hammers to hammer nails into planks - when they are not religious?" Because a hammer is a hammer. And do not require faith.
    A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. - David Stevens
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  14. #214  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    I'm being pedantic, but the question, "how do atheists get married", in the opening post has been annoying me since the thread was resurrected early in September 2013
    I assume the answer to be they have to go through some kind of legal ceremony like everyone else.
    In states that recognize common law marriage. A couple needs only to live together for a certain amount of time and refer to each other as husband and wife in public. In states that do not recognize common law marriage. They only need to bring a couple of witnesses to the court house and have a justice of the peace declare them married and sign the paperwork and have the witnesses sign as well. That's it.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  15. #215  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    One alternates hands.
    You've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
    Nope. All female equipment!
    Yep! Your new avatar confirms that.
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  16. #216  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    I'm being pedantic, but the question, "how do atheists get married", in the opening post has been annoying me since the thread was resurrected early in September 2013
    I assume the answer to be they have to go through some kind of legal ceremony like everyone else.
    In states that recognize common law marriage. A couple needs only to live together for a certain amount of time and refer to each other as husband and wife in public. In states that do not recognize common law marriage. They only need to bring a couple of witnesses to the court house and have a justice of the peace declare them married and sign the paperwork and have the witnesses sign as well. That's it.
    Per Wikipedia

    Common-law marriage in the United States can still be contracted in nine states (Alabama, Colorado, Kansas, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Iowa, Montana, Utah and Texas) and the District of Columbia. New Hampshire recognizes common-law marriage for purposes of probate only, and Utah recognizes common-law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.[1]Common-law marriage can no longer be contracted in 27 states, and was never permitted in 13 states. The requirements for a common-law marriage to be validly contracted differ from state to state. Nevertheless, all states — including those that have abolished the contract of common-law marriage within their boundaries — recognize common-law marriages lawfully contracted in those jurisdictions that permit it. Some states that do not recognize common law marriage also afford legal rights to parties to a putative marriage (i.e. in circumstances when someone who was not actually married, e.g. due to a failure to obtain or complete a valid marriage license from the proper jurisdiction, believed in good faith that he or she was married) that arise before a marriage's invalidity is discovered.
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  17. #217  
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    I did not even know such an arrangement existed.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  18. #218  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    I did not even know such an arrangement existed.
    It used to be in many states if you lived with a woman for 7 years you were automatically considered common law married. Then many states changed that to 6 months. But for some reason that got changed to no more common law marriages. My guess is that common law marriages were being abused from a legal perspective. Mostly screwing the man over if he was in a no fault divorce state and were legally married it was a 50/50 split on all assets regardless of who originally brought those assets to the marriage. Now it's only 50/50 for assets acquired after and during the marriage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bad robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by macgyver1968 View Post
    dude, if you're polishing the mahogany 7 times a day....whew! You might want to throttle back a bit, or one arm is going to be bigger than the other.
    one alternates hands.
    you've never been a man before have you? I can tell you from experience that one hand is always more affectionate than the other.
    nope. All female equipment!
    yep! Your new avatar confirms that.
    brat!! *l*
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  20. #220  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    I'm being pedantic, but the question, "how do atheists get married", in the opening post has been annoying me since the thread was resurrected early in September 2013
    I assume the answer to be they have to go through some kind of legal ceremony like everyone else.
    In states that recognize common law marriage. A couple needs only to live together for a certain amount of time and refer to each other as husband and wife in public. In states that do not recognize common law marriage. They only need to bring a couple of witnesses to the court house and have a justice of the peace declare them married and sign the paperwork and have the witnesses sign as well. That's it.
    I live in the UK. I assume you are talking about the USA.
    You say that certain states recognise common law marriage so one could argue that "living together for a certain amount of time and referring to each other as husband and wife in public" is one procedure, or ceremony, that can make the union a marriage recognised in law.
    I posted on this thread because it seems clear that atheists can enter into a marriage in exactly the same ways as others do.
    In other words surely the question, in the OP, should have begun with "why" and not "how" as the individual who started the thread appeared to be concerned with whether atheists could justify entering the institution of marriage.
    Last edited by Halliday; September 16th, 2013 at 06:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    RED MEAT . Meat Locker . rotten egg incubator

    (The title's on this site never have anything to do with the cartoon...)

    I think I missed the pun.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

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  22. #222  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    I'm being pedantic, but the question, "how do atheists get married", in the opening post has been annoying me since the thread was resurrected early in September 2013
    I assume the answer to be they have to go through some kind of legal ceremony like everyone else.
    In states that recognize common law marriage. A couple needs only to live together for a certain amount of time and refer to each other as husband and wife in public. In states that do not recognize common law marriage. They only need to bring a couple of witnesses to the court house and have a justice of the peace declare them married and sign the paperwork and have the witnesses sign as well. That's it.
    I live in the UK. I assume you are talking about the USA.
    You say that certain states recognise common law marriage so one could argue that "living together for a certain amount of time and referring to each other as husband and wife in public" is one procedure, or ceremony, that can make the union a marriage recognised in law.
    I posted on this thread because it seems clear that atheists can enter into a marriage in exactly the same ways as others do.
    In other words surely the question, in the OP, should have begun with "why" and not "how" as the individual who started the thread appeared to be concerned with whether atheists could justify entering the institution of marriage.
    good point.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  23. #223  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    In other words surely the question, in the OP, should have begun with "why" and not "how" as the individual who started the thread appeared to be concerned with whether atheists could justify entering the institution of marriage.

    Due to what I have read so far, it seems that atheists can justify the entering of a non-religious institution.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    The whole point is that one of the reasons atheists reject religion is because it's a culturally influenced type of thing, and some are able to see marriage in the same light for what it is. It's okay if you like marriage, it's just some of us have higher standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCanvas View Post
    The whole point is that one of the reasons atheists reject religion is because it's a culturally influenced type of thing, and some are able to see marriage in the same light for what it is. It's okay if you like marriage, it's just some of us have higher standards.
    After 39 years of marriage...and I did get married way way way too young....I believe in it.

    It is, however, not for lazy people or anyone who can't learn to fight, laugh, love, share, travel, cook, sleep, take care of when sick, etc, etc. etc.

    "It's a puzzlement."
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    oops...and that being said...if my husband should die......I am not remarrying. Just gonna "Live in Sin".
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    oops...and that being said...if my husband should die......I am not remarrying. Just gonna "Live in Sin".
    Your not an atheist then, right? Who ever heard of an atheist living in sin?
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    It's an EXPRESSION!! *glare*
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It's an EXPRESSION!! *glare*
    I always hate it when I get caught using an expression I don't really believe in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    I always hate it when I get caught using an expression I don't really believe in.
    Thank God there's an Edit Function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    I always hate it when I get caught using an expression I don't really believe in.
    Thank God there's an Edit Function.
    I've never used edit to change content (Spelling, typos and format problems only) If I put foot in mouth, I take whatever licks I got coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It's an EXPRESSION!! *glare*
    I always hate it when I get caught using an expression I don't really believe in.
    Chuckle!! Good one.
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    some rules are biased even in modern countrys modern era...
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    There are many sorts of weddings which have nothing to do with religion. But if you are talking about the atheists attending western wedding, then maybe they are making a promise to the lovers rather than to god. They regard it as just a ceremony.
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    What does God have to do with getting married? Marriage is something people have been doing for probably 100,000's of years with and without religion. What does making a vow to share your life with one person have anything to do with God? Isn't it just between the two people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    What does God have to do with getting married? Marriage is something people have been doing for probably 100,000's of years with and without religion. What does making a vow to share your life with one person have anything to do with God? Isn't it just between the two people?
    To a religious person, God has something to do with pretty much everything, and a vow would also have religious significance.

    I'd have to disagree that it is just between two people. There are often large ceremonies attended by many relatives and acquaintances. It changes their relationship with the community at large, announces them as unavailable as marriage partners to others, changes their legal status, etc.

    You mention that it has probably existed for hundreds of thousands of years. When in your opinion did people start getting married, and what is the earliest evidence for marriage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    What does God have to do with getting married?
    As Harold points out marriage is an act in and of society. For thousands of years the strongest binding element within any society was it's religion. That's what God has to do with marriage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    What does God have to do with getting married?
    As Harold points out marriage is an act in and of society. For thousands of years the strongest binding element within any society was it's religion. That's what God has to do with marriage.
    I'm not so sure this is very accurate. I think you are over-estimating religion in ancient society. Not only that but it seems that you are trying to also assume that ancient religions were monotheistic as well, which is inaccurate. In today's hunter-gatherer societies, there is very little evidence for what you present here and seem to use a more ethnocentric view projected onto earlier societies. You are right though, marriage is "an act in and of society" which happens to be part of the secular domain of society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    What does God have to do with getting married?
    As Harold points out marriage is an act in and of society. For thousands of years the strongest binding element within any society was it's religion. That's what God has to do with marriage.
    I'm not so sure this is very accurate. I think you are over-estimating religion in ancient society. Not only that but it seems that you are trying to also assume that ancient religions were monotheistic as well, which is inaccurate. In today's hunter-gatherer societies, there is very little evidence for what you present here and seem to use a more ethnocentric view projected onto earlier societies. You are right though, marriage is "an act in and of society" which happens to be part of the secular domain of society.
    I would think that even in hunter-gatherer societies, a marriage would be an act of society. The members of the hunter-gatherer band would recognize the married couple as such. There would be an expectation about the couple nurturing their children. A man would not make overtures to another man's wife, etc. Am I wrong about that?

    I think that John Galt was probably referring to civilizations of the last few thousand years, rather than hunter gatherers.
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    What does God have to do with getting married?
    As Harold points out marriage is an act in and of society. For thousands of years the strongest binding element within any society was it's religion. That's what God has to do with marriage.
    I'm not so sure this is very accurate. I think you are over-estimating religion in ancient society. Not only that but it seems that you are trying to also assume that ancient religions were monotheistic as well, which is inaccurate. In today's hunter-gatherer societies, there is very little evidence for what you present here and seem to use a more ethnocentric view projected onto earlier societies. You are right though, marriage is "an act in and of society" which happens to be part of the secular domain of society.
    I would think that even in hunter-gatherer societies, a marriage would be an act of society. The members of the hunter-gatherer band would recognize the married couple as such. There would be an expectation about the couple nurturing their children. A man would not make overtures to another man's wife, etc. Am I wrong about that?
    I would be skeptical to try to state any definitive statements about the specifics of ancient marriage. All I can do is present what I understand about current-day hunter-gatherer societies from my studies as an anthropology student. I CAN say that religion is not nearly as important as one might think in ancient society. Religion with African Pygmies for instance has hold on a very small portion of their daily lives. When they get married, it's a cultural celebration, not necessarily a religious one. When they don't uphold their duties as wife/husband, they get shunned by the tribe, not punishments from their gods. Gods play a role specifically when "luck" is needed. When they go on a fishing trip, they hope their gods give them many fish. Same with hunting. Having God in every aspect of your life is a relatively new function of religion that mostly was incorporated into the newer monotheistic religions and some of the major polytheistic religions.

    In short, the role and function of marriage in ancient society was generally not all-encompassing as we see with modern-day religions.
    Last edited by ReligionOfTheSemites; September 11th, 2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Elaboration
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    In this month's issue of Scientific American, there is an interesting article about the impact of pair bonding on human evolution and social structure. You need a subscription to read the entire thing on line.

    The researcher, University of Montreal anthropologist Bernard Chapais, sees pair bonding as a key difference between chimp and human society. “If you take the promiscuity that is the main feature of chimp society, and replace it with pair bonding, you get many of the most important features of human society,” he said. "The emergence of a pair bond between male and female, would have allowed people to recognize their relatives, something chimps can do only to a limited extent. When family members dispersed to other bands, they would be recognized and neighboring bands would cooperate instead of fighting to the death as chimp groups do."

    While not arguing that hunter gatherers did not engage in brutal warfare, Chepais says it was not as simple as the aggressive genetic competition between chimp groups. In modern hunter gather groups studied, "three social features characterize hunter-gatherer societies and are unique to humans, the researchers conclude. First, both men and women are as likely to stay in the bands they were born into as to move to new bands to find marriage partners. Second, adult brothers and sisters frequently reside together, along with lots of in-laws. Third, a majority of band members are genetically unrelated."

    Pair bonding and its net works of in laws, was key to building cooperative social relationships in human groups. "This monogamy-based social structure encourages males to circulate freely among bands in which they have kin and in-laws. Cultural innovations and traditions thus spread rapidly and unite bands into larger social units called tribes, Chapais proposes."


    Our Secret Evolutionary Weapon: Monogamy - Scientific American


    In-Laws Transformed Early Human Society - US News
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    Think about the practical use of marriage. Essentially a man is vowing to support the offspring of a particular woman. In return, he asks that measures be taken to ensure that her offspring is his offspring. At least her future offspring. Depending on the culture.

    In many ancient cultures there was no requirement for the man to be sexually exclusive, but any woman who chose to sleep with him would be foolish for doing so, because he hadn't promised to support her offspring. Also, in a lot of ancient cultures, the man could have multiple wives, so long as he supported all of them.

    If you take marriage out of the equation, then what you end up with is mostly single moms. The primary reproductive strategy for a man would be to have "speculative" offspring. Offspring which he doesn't really care about because he has put zero investment into them anyway, but he just hopes that by random luck one or more of them will turn out alright. Women have never had that option, because they always put a very big investment into every child by carrying it to term. They can still abandon them if they want, but they'd be insane to do so after putting in such a big investment.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Think about the practical use of marriage. Essentially a man is vowing to support the offspring of a particular woman. In return, he asks that measures be taken to ensure that her offspring is his offspring. At least her future offspring. Depending on the culture.

    In many ancient cultures there was no requirement for the man to be sexually exclusive, but any woman who chose to sleep with him would be foolish for doing so, because he hadn't promised to support her offspring. Also, in a lot of ancient cultures, the man could have multiple wives, so long as he supported all of them.

    If you take marriage out of the equation, then what you end up with is mostly single moms. The primary reproductive strategy for a man would be to have "speculative" offspring. Offspring which he doesn't really care about because he has put zero investment into them anyway, but he just hopes that by random luck one or more of them will turn out alright. Women have never had that option, because they always put a very big investment into every child by carrying it to term. They can still abandon them if they want, but they'd be insane to do so after putting in such a big investment.

    You and I have a very VERY Different definition of MARRIAGE.
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    kojax was not defining marriage, he was explaining its function.

    (Forum historians should note the date and time at which I agreed with kojax.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    kojax was not defining marriage, he was explaining its function.

    (Forum historians should note the date and time at which I agreed with kojax.)
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?

    It is in my way of thinking?

    Where do find fault John Galt.

    AND MORE IMPORTANTLY....why are you saddened??????

    You have me worried Sir John!
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    Saddened is a euphimism for pissed off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?
    No. Here is a definition of marriage. "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." That doesn't say what its function is.
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    Some definitions could include function, but as Harold has pointed out, this is not necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Saddened is a euphimism for pissed off.
    OK....you are pissed off....do you wish to elaborate on that statement?

    Have I offended you? I certainly hope not!
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  50. #250  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?
    No. Here is a definition of marriage. "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." That doesn't say what its function is.

    mar·riage noun \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\

    : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife

    : a similar relationship between people of the same sex

    : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other













    EasyBib






    Full Definition of MARRIAGE


    1

    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>

    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock

    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

    2

    : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities


    3

    : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>


    Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
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    Since my main problem is she lack understanding why im a non-believer, its a bit hard coz im the one who is adjusting (because i dont want her thinking that im just trying to make excuses). Like its ok for me to get a wedding for as long as the church and its religion doesn't feel any bad about me nor force me to be a practitioner. Im not an evil to be afraid of stepping inside the church or get afraid of wedding. What i worry is their (the believers) feelings toward someone like me who is a non-believer that is getting a wedding. Civil wedding is much more comfortable to me, but you know guys its a girl's dream to be wed in a church and im highly considerate of that. What is most important to me is the legality and officiality of our union.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xingha View Post
    Since my main problem is she lack understanding why im a non-believer, its a bit hard coz im the one who is adjusting (because i dont want her thinking that im just trying to make excuses). Like its ok for me to get a wedding for as long as the church and its religion doesn't feel any bad about me nor force me to be a practitioner. Im not an evil to be afraid of stepping inside the church or get afraid of wedding. What i worry is their (the believers) feelings toward someone like me who is a non-believer that is getting a wedding. Civil wedding is much more comfortable to me, but you know guys its a girl's dream to be wed in a church and im highly considerate of that. What is most important to me is the legality and officiality of our union.
    Did I get it right.
    The bride wants a church setting for the wedding but you are a nonbeliever, but you would be willing to go along with the ceremony just to please her.
    Personally I don't think you should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?
    No. Here is a definition of marriage. "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." That doesn't say what its function is.

    mar·riage noun \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\

    : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife

    : a similar relationship between people of the same sex

    : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other













    EasyBib






    Full Definition of MARRIAGE


    1

    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>

    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock

    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

    2

    : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities


    3

    : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>


    Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    I still don't see a function there. I think kojax was describing the function of marriage in human evolution. This function may or may not be recognized by the married couple.

    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xingha View Post
    Since my main problem is she lack understanding why im a non-believer, its a bit hard coz im the one who is adjusting (because i dont want her thinking that im just trying to make excuses). Like its ok for me to get a wedding for as long as the church and its religion doesn't feel any bad about me nor force me to be a practitioner. Im not an evil to be afraid of stepping inside the church or get afraid of wedding. What i worry is their (the believers) feelings toward someone like me who is a non-believer that is getting a wedding. Civil wedding is much more comfortable to me, but you know guys its a girl's dream to be wed in a church and im highly considerate of that. What is most important to me is the legality and officiality of our union.
    I think that there are weddings where the atheist can accompany the believer... or something like that.

    It makes no sense at all.... but... if she wants a wedding in a church...

    By the way... Iīm a girl and I donīt dream to marry in a church (Iīm also atheist... so may be I donīt count... : D)
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  55. #255  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xingha View Post
    Since my main problem is she lack understanding why im a non-believer, its a bit hard coz im the one who is adjusting (because i dont want her thinking that im just trying to make excuses). Like its ok for me to get a wedding for as long as the church and its religion doesn't feel any bad about me nor force me to be a practitioner. Im not an evil to be afraid of stepping inside the church or get afraid of wedding. What i worry is their (the believers) feelings toward someone like me who is a non-believer that is getting a wedding. Civil wedding is much more comfortable to me, but you know guys its a girl's dream to be wed in a church and im highly considerate of that. What is most important to me is the legality and officiality of our union.
    Genuinely religious people should welcome you regardless, I would hope. As for your own feelings about it, there are different ways to look at it. For some it does have religious significance, but for others it is about tradition. You are making a promise people have made for centuries, saying the same words that have been said again and again. It's part of the human experience, the creation of a new family bond (whether you decide to have children or not) and you are sharing this event with others. A church is a perfectly nice place to do that.
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    Full Definition of MARRIAGE


    1

    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>

    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock

    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

    2

    : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities


    3

    : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>


    Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary[/QUOTE]
    I still don't see a function there. I think kojax was describing the function of marriage in human evolution. This function may or may not be recognized by the married couple.

    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.[/QUOTE]

    But hasn't marriage evolved into the human which now has people of the same sex also having offspring? One genetically linked to the child?
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.
    There was a guy in our area who had fathered 11 kids mostly out of wedlock by many different mothers. I have a feeling your logic breaks down in face of those numbers.
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    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.[/QUOTE]


    Harold's comment not mine.

    I just edited it incorrectly.

    This was mine.

    But hasn't marriage evolved into the human which now has people of the same sex also having offspring? One genetically linked to the child?
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.
    Harold's comment not mine.

    I just edited it incorrectly.

    This was mine.


    But hasn't marriage evolved into the human which now has people of the same sex also having offspring? One genetically linked to the child?
    It certainly happens today in some cultures. But there would be many other creative things that could be done as well, for example cloning, or the all female society. Have you heard of that one where males are obsolete altogether? What about using the wombs of another species to produce our children? (It has been done to some extent in animals.)
    What about genetic engineering to eliminate genetic disease, now that seems difficult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Evolution favors behavior that helps to pass on one's genes to future generations. Marriage does that. The man, theoretically, gets exclusive breeding rights to at least one female and in return the female gets help providing for her offspring. They both benefit by their offspring having a better chance of living to breeding age.
    Harold's comment not mine.

    I just edited it incorrectly.

    This was mine.


    But hasn't marriage evolved into the human which now has people of the same sex also having offspring? One genetically linked to the child?
    It certainly happens today in some cultures. But there would be many other creative things that could be done as well, for example cloning, or the all female society. Have you heard of that one where males are obsolete altogether? What about using the wombs of another species to produce our children? (It has been done to some extent in animals.)
    What about genetic engineering to eliminate genetic disease, now that seems difficult.
    It happens all the time. Artificial Insemination, so gay couples have a surrogate (be it male or female, he for the sperm, she for the eggs) so those kids are genetically linked to the parent.
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    One young woman I know has the same father for each child, one with each mother, and in the old fashioned way of conception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    One young woman I know has the same father for each child, one with each mother, and in the old fashioned way of conception.
    You seem tired Babe, get some sleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    One young woman I know has the same father for each child, one with each mother, and in the old fashioned way of conception.
    You seem tired Babe, get some sleep.
    If you moved 3 houses into each other....you'd be too!! *chuckle*

    I'm ok.

    I have too much work to still do tonight. I am not in Hawai'i right now....I also have stuff to do in Cali
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    One young woman I know has the same father for each child, one with each mother, and in the old fashioned way of conception.
    You seem tired Babe, get some sleep.
    If you moved 3 houses into each other....you'd be too!! *chuckle*

    I'm ok.

    I have too much work to still do tonight. I am not in Hawai'i right now....I also have stuff to do in Cali
    You do seem to be tireless but you have to do what needs to be done but please don't exceed yourself, you could get ill, and then it won't be worth it. You seem to have been on the go for months now. What you write is just a little mixed up so I can tell you are exhausted Babe.
    Does it all have to be done today?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    One young woman I know has the same father for each child, one with each mother, and in the old fashioned way of conception.
    You seem tired Babe, get some sleep.
    If you moved 3 houses into each other....you'd be too!! *chuckle*

    I'm ok.

    I have too much work to still do tonight. I am not in Hawai'i right now....I also have stuff to do in Cali
    You do seem to be tireless but you have to do what needs to be done but please don't exceed yourself, you could get ill, and then it won't be worth it. You seem to have been on the go for months now. What you write is just a little mixed up so I can tell you are exhausted Babe.
    Does it all have to be done today?
    I always exceed. I am exhausted. I will rest when I am dead.

    Also, my mind goes much faster than my fingers sometimes. I know what I am saying but my hands are lagging behind. *chuckle*

    Anyhow, we are off topic. *S*

    Thanks for caring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Saddened is a euphimism for pissed off.
    Well we definately don't want to get you saddened then Mr Galt. :-)

    Quidquid latine dictum, altum videtur
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?
    No. Here is a definition of marriage. "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." That doesn't say what its function is.

    mar·riage noun \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\

    : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife

    : a similar relationship between people of the same sex

    : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other













    EasyBib






    Full Definition of MARRIAGE


    1

    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>

    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock

    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

    2

    : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities


    3

    : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>


    Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    wait, but a MARRIAGE is issued by the law...a WEDDING is the ceremony that's traditionally in a church...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    Marriage involves the state more than God. I couldn't care less if God recognized the marriage so long as the state did.
    But it derives from religion so its hypocritcal of you isn't it? No offense :wink:.
    A lot of things started off religiously and end up being used by agnostics/atheists. To some people a Marriage aka matrimony aka wedlock is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between two people that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.

    It's a way for a man and a woman (or whatever nowadays!) to make a pledge to each other stating their love an commitment for a lifetime. Sometimes agnostics/atheists get married because their spouse is religious. Everybody has their own reason.
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  69. #269  
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    "Christian" practices also aren't usually ONLY done by Christians, either...even though Christmas started as a Pagan holiday it's pretty much now recognized as a Christian holiday and a LOT of atheists and agnostics celebrate it because it's an occasion to be with your family, etc. Christian practices aren't restricted to Christians. Maybe non-theists get married to have a nice gold band on their left hand, who knows?
    ANY SALAD CAN BE A CAESAR SALAD IF YOU STAB IT ENOUGH TIMES.
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  70. #270  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosidicus_gigas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Isn't it's function part of its definition?
    No. Here is a definition of marriage. "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." That doesn't say what its function is.

    mar·riage noun \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\

    : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife

    : a similar relationship between people of the same sex

    : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other













    EasyBib






    Full Definition of MARRIAGE


    1

    a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>

    b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock

    c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

    2

    : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities


    3

    : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>


    Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    wait, but a MARRIAGE is issued by the law...a WEDDING is the ceremony that's traditionally in a church...

    I have not been to a wedding in a church with a minister in probably 10 years.

    No one gets married in the church that I know.

    We don't belong.
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  71. #271  
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    Marriage requires commitment. In the ceremony, we make a vow, which is an act of blind dumb Faith. We promise x y and z for the rest of our lives no matter what. In romance novels or movies that's prompted by hot crazy desire. But this grade of determined Faith may also come from the same place religious Faith does: It may be willfully unreasonable. Of course one who would stick with foolish religious beliefs in the face of evidence also has the capacity to stick with wedding vows regardless of how he might feel at one moment or the next. So religiosity is pretty good proof of fidelity.

    The alternative is a rationalist who promises only to re-assess his marriage as the pros and cons of his situation change over time. This makes sense for the individual, but is not so good for the spouse, or the extended family, or society. A wise atheist understands where to apply rationality, and where to apply irrationality, in life.

    I dunno if that above makes irrationality sound sometimes rational. But that is my position. Can't be changed.
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  72. #272  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosidicus_gigas View Post
    wait, but a MARRIAGE is issued by the law...a WEDDING is the ceremony that's traditionally in a church...
    Maybe for Christians. If we aren't going to be egocentric for this thread, we need to look outside of our own culture. Marriage, as used by human beings (not just Christians), has been essentially a secular union between two families.
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  73. #273  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosidicus_gigas View Post
    "Christian" practices also aren't usually ONLY done by Christians, either...even though Christmas started as a Pagan holiday it's pretty much now recognized as a Christian holiday and a LOT of atheists and agnostics celebrate it because it's an occasion to be with your family, etc. Christian practices aren't restricted to Christians. Maybe non-theists get married to have a nice gold band on their left hand, who knows?
    Of course. Iīm an atheist and I celebrae Santa Claus day... because I want presents (though I donīt get any now because Iīm not a child anymore). What does Santa Claus has to do with Christian Christmas??? Absolutely nothing... Conveniently they are celebrated the same day... ; )

    I had a school partner who was--is--- very religious and I remember him saying that in Christmas he didinīt receive presents... because it didnīt correspond. But he received presents on january 6 (because of the Kings day or magic kings day, I donīt know how you say it in english). I believe that is more appropiate, too.

    bye
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  74. #274  
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    I don't know what is so hard to see about this thread. Marriage has been around a lot longer than any organized religion, why is there even a debate here?
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  75. #275  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If they don't believe in God why perform a religious act? Marriage derives from religion. Can atheists get married in chruch without being contradictory, can they get married at all without being contradictory? If marriage comes from religion shoudl atheists be taken seriously if they want to get married? By that I mean should those who don't believe in something be able to use something from that which they don't believe? No offense here folks :wink:.
    Because of this Religionofthesemites
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  76. #276  
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    Quote Originally Posted by M_Gabriela View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If they don't believe in God why perform a religious act? Marriage derives from religion. Can atheists get married in chruch without being contradictory, can they get married at all without being contradictory? If marriage comes from religion shoudl atheists be taken seriously if they want to get married? By that I mean should those who don't believe in something be able to use something from that which they don't believe? No offense here folks :wink:.
    Because of this Religionofthesemites
    Your failing to understand that marriage isn't inherently a religious act. Just because many religions incorporated the secular institution into their beliefs doesn't mean it came from those religions. Why are you pretending that marriage is a "religious act"?
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  77. #277  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReligionOfTheSemites View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by M_Gabriela View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If they don't believe in God why perform a religious act? Marriage derives from religion. Can atheists get married in chruch without being contradictory, can they get married at all without being contradictory? If marriage comes from religion shoudl atheists be taken seriously if they want to get married? By that I mean should those who don't believe in something be able to use something from that which they don't believe? No offense here folks :wink:.
    Because of this Religionofthesemites
    Your failing to understand that marriage isn't inherently a religious act. Just because many religions incorporated the secular institution into their beliefs doesn't mean it came from those religions. Why are you pretending that marriage is a "religious act"?
    So I suppose you are answering to Quantime. This guy started this topic in 2007. I donīt know if he is still following it.
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    In addition to the article on pair bonding and evolution, there's also this one on longevity and the evolution of grandparents. In a nutshell, the number of people living to be old enough to be grandparents increased dramatically about 30,000 years ago. The theory being that healthy, food gathering grandmothers meant fat healthy grandkids, as well as grandparents facilitating the passage of skills and knowledge.
    If the grandkids survive better, they pass on those genes for longevity. In addition, there would probably be an overall increase in fitness of young people, since in order to live past middle age, you need to be not just fit enough to reproduce, but extra-fit, so to speak.

    In order for all this to occur, though, one would think it would require long term monogamous pair-bonding in order for grandparents to know who their progeny were.

    Working against all this are the advantages of promiscuity in increasing offspring. And although that is seen as a male strategy, it is not always in the best interests of a female to put all her eggs in one genetic basket, if her mate is infertile or is killed of. Perhaps that is why God or the taboo of adultery is incorporated into the pair bonding process, to make promiscuity a less common occurrence.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-survival.html
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  79. #279  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    In addition to the article on pair bonding and evolution, there's also this one on longevity and the evolution of grandparents. In a nutshell, the number of people living to be old enough to be grandparents increased dramatically about 30,000 years ago. The theory being that healthy, food gathering grandmothers meant fat healthy grandkids, as well as grandparents facilitating the passage of skills and knowledge.
    If the grandkids survive better, they pass on those genes for longevity. In addition, there would probably be an overall increase in fitness of young people, since in order to live past middle age, you need to be not just fit enough to reproduce, but extra-fit, so to speak.

    In order for all this to occur, though, one would think it would require long term monogamous pair-bonding in order for grandparents to know who their progeny were.

    Working against all this are the advantages of promiscuity in increasing offspring. And although that is seen as a male strategy, it is not always in the best interests of a female to put all her eggs in one genetic basket, if her mate is infertile or is killed of. Perhaps that is why God or the taboo of adultery is incorporated into the pair bonding process, to make promiscuity a less common occurrence.

    Granny power: Why grandparents ensured human survival | Daily Mail Online
    Very interesting.

    Offtopic: not even scientific articles stop showing topless women if they can...But that is another topic , By the way, that girl upper parts are way too up....
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