Thread: prooving atheism

I have noticed that the religion section has more atheists than theists!
why are you all trying to convince yourself that you're right? Did you lose faith because of science? I'll take any question, (exept the human monkeys) and show you how it does not contradict my religion. (my posts might take a while, I'll be studying. I'm still thinking about the monkey concept. I'll find an explanation someday. Let's see what you guys have got. swmiller, you're religious. Back me up please, but... use factual arguments. not, "it's that way because you're gonna go to hell"

i have a question. How do you explain human monkeys?

I don't know how to explain how "people evolved from monkeys"
I knew that would come up.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

I'll take any question, (exept the human monkeys)

Maybe I set myself up. I just wanna see what arguments there are. Challenge my own beliefs, so that I can reaferm them.

Why in a universe 4.6 billion years old does religion & the concept of God only arrive in the last (maximum of) 4000 years ago on such a small insignificant planet as earth with no particular importance to the universe as a whole?

Please don't answer this using some form of the anthropic prinicple, thats never an argument either side should want to use.
I'm finding it difficult to come up with questions most of what I have are statements!

God created man through evolution. Isn't that what the catholic church is now teaching? I was wondering what you meant by human monkeys.

Here's an interesting one. Can god kill himself?

How do you explain that 10000 spicies evolved into 1000000 species in 4000 years?
and how this could have happend with out any beneficial mutations or increases in information in the animals DNA?

Why does the bible say 'thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain', when it also says that no human can ever know his name. Ie. The Tetragrammaton, 'the unknowable, unspeakable name of god'.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

I have noticed that the religion section has more atheists than theists!
why are you all trying to convince yourself that you're right? Did you lose faith because of science? I'll take any question, (exept the human monkeys) and show you how it does not contradict my religion. (my posts might take a while, I'll be studying. I'm still thinking about the monkey concept. I'll find an explanation someday. Let's see what you guys have got. swmiller, you're religious. Back me up please, but... use factual arguments. not, "it's that way because you're gonna go to hell"

so where do you want to start, if your going to play surely we need to know which one of the religious sects out of the 34,000 christian sect, muslim sect, jewish sect, or any other sect from any one of the 270 major religions on this planet or one of the numerous smaller ones, and which one of the 2,850 gods thats not including the hindu gods who number in the thousands. you follow, once we defined that we can then, lol get onto the rationality of said god/religion.

Why is killing sinful, but it's ok for god to wipe out humanity with a flood for pissing him off? If god understands the concept of love, why would he send any man to hell for eternity? Why would he send good men to hell, simply for being non-christian? If god loves his children, why does he hate gays?

God created man through evolution.

If you have a real understanding of how we came to be as we are & how we evolved you would understand that we most certainly were not created or designed by evolution with any great plan to arrive at humans. We are deeply flawed.
How do you explain the optic nerve passing through the retina,
the fact that we get back pain by bad adaptation,
recently the fact chimps have a better memory than us.
We are merely an "accident" of what is random selection (I have not worded that carefully for anyone about to get me on technicalities)

If god is perfect, why does he change his mind about vengeance in the new testament? why did he destroy sodom for impure sexual practices, but save lot and his daughters, who then had sex with their father and their children became the leaders of the tribes of israel, evidently as reward. Please explain what made lot virtuous.

God created man through evolution. Isn't that what the catholic church is now teaching? I was wondering what you meant by human monkeys.

I'm not catholic...

I might get alot of negative feedback, and I don't care.. I'm LDS. on other words, I'm Mormon. We don't like that term though. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Why in a universe 4.6 billion years old does religion & the concept of God only arrive in the last (maximum of) 4000 years ago on such a small insignificant planet as earth with no particular importance to the universe as a whole?

It arived here 6,000 years ago, with Adam. Our planet became sinificant, because God chose that his son should come here, to be crucified. That was because we were one of the only places that would do it. Don't ask me why you're here, on this earth, and not somewhere else. It's a blessing.

Can god kill himself?

That's a trap. He can't die, but he can kill himself. He can't die because he won't kill himself, and no one else can. I'll go check church teachings. I may be wrong there.

I'm expecting alot of traps. Expecialy now that you know what religion I belong to. I'll be using quotes from not only the old and new testements, but BoM, JST, and D&C. Anything else I can find, also.

Robbie, i don't need to explain how god created man through evolution, as that's not my opinion. I don't know how the catholic church would answer your question.

This is gonna be fun!

Please explain how immaculate conception is possible. Please prove that the bible has not been edited and is a trustworthy source. Please explain why david and solomon's kingdom of israel , which supposedly bordered on egypt, but the egyptians do not corroborate this. Wwhy is there is no evidence of solomon and david?

Please explain why the story of jesus is almost exactly the story of buddha, and he was often preaching the words of confuscious. Please explain why the egyptians have no record of the migration of the jews. Why didn't they take any note of the plagues of frogs and locusts and all their slaves leaving?

I'll be coming back with the rest. this one's easy though.

Please prove that the bible has not been edited and is a trustworthy source.

The bible has been edited. It's not a trustworthy source. Alot of it is still the same though. They're getting the dead sea scrolls, wich have coppies of parts of the bible. They show manny errors and differances. Check the JST in the back of a BoM! That's alot of mistakes. And he wasn't close to being done!

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

This is gonna be fun!

the bible openly admits the immaculate conception is a mistranslation, I dealt with this in the last day on another thread here.
Its just the church seems to think it true for some truly illogical reason.
However, please explain if Mary IS a virgin, how Jesus is a descendent of David when th book of Matthew explains that Joseph is a descendent of David

Robbie, i don't need to explain how god created man through evolution, as that's not my opinion. I don't know how the catholic church would answer your question.

Exactly they wouldn't.
Initially it looks like evolution lead to what modern man is today, but when one looks more deeply you see that it is a meandering path not necessarily leading to mankind, it is just some coincidence of chance and environment that has lead to out being here today. Had the dinosaurs not died out 250 million years ago, the small rodents that persisted would never have had the chance to develop into humans & everything else we have today.

If god is everywhere, how can he also have a body? The bible states that he's carried around heaven by angels. The cherubim, as i recall. Why do christians believe angels are beautiful, when the bible states that they're quite scary things with three heads. Have they never read the book they preach?

Why believe in the modern day concept of hell when that was developped much later on with Dantes, the divine comedy & paradise lost etc. ?

Why believe there is a soul when every facet of your being can be explained and mapped in regions of your brain & circuits within it.

Maybe you could answer this one which has bothered me.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not Omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurus

Originally Posted by TvEye

Please explain why the story of jesus is almost exactly the story of buddha,

"other sheep I have wich are not of this fold" who did he visit afterwords? He visited America. I know that. Did he visit the eastern countries? did he teach them, and then they changed things? I dont know Budah does sound alot like Jesus... doesn't he 8)

Please explain why the egyptians have no record of the migration of the jews. Why didn't they take any note of the plagues of frogs and locusts and all their slaves leaving?

It might have been recorded. Remember that pharos enjoyed erasing everything that had to do with their predacessors.
all of their slaves?...
There's a thing on the discovery channel (or was it the history channel?) about how a volcano erupted about the time moses's plagues were coming. God works not only in mystrious ways, but in natural ways.

The bell just rang, I've got to go to class. I'll be back later with answers to all of your questions and more! (I want to make sure that they're right.)

robbie, I liked that last one here's another one, why do churches teach that the bible looks pretty much like pan, when the bible says he appears as a beautiful woman in a blue dress? Why lie to your congregation?

Shaderwolf, you mean jesus sounds like buddha. Not buddha sounds like jesus. Buddha was around 400 years before christ.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

It arived here 6,000 years ago, with Adam. Our planet became sinificant, because God chose that his son should come here, to be crucified. That was because we were one of the only places that would do it. Don't ask me why you're here, on this earth, and not somewhere else. It's a blessing.

So...are you saying you are a Young Earth believer? In which case - do you just ignore science which across every branch has confirmed that the earth is far, far, far older than YEC's believe?

Originally Posted by Pikkhaud

How do you explain that 10000 spicies evolved into 1000000 species in 4000 years?
and how this could have happend with out any beneficial mutations or increases in information in the animals DNA?

God makes the animals, and lets them evolve. Also, I believe that it was only humans that were "put" here... The earth can exist for billions of years and not kill religion.

Originally Posted by Robbie

If you have a real understanding of how we came to be as we are & how we evolved you would understand that we most certainly were not created or designed by evolution with any great plan to arrive at humans. We are deeply flawed...We are merely an "accident" of what is random selection (I have not worded that carefully for anyone about to get
me on technicalities)

Without "flaws" the trial of life, would not be a trial. God let us have problems so that we could overcome them and be perfect one day. Life is a trial run, readying us for eternity.

Originally Posted by Robbie

the bible openly admits the immaculate conception is a mistranslation, I dealt with this in the last day on another thread here.
Its just the church seems to think it true for some truly illogical reason.
However, please explain if Mary IS a virgin, how Jesus is a descendent of David when th book of Matthew explains that Joseph is a descendent of David

Jesus wasn't Joseph's son. It doesn't matter how. You wanna get specific, ask, and I will. He doesn't have to be Joseph's literal son to inherit the family line that he was borne into.

Originally Posted by Robbie

Why believe in the modern day concept of hell when that was developped much later on with Dantes, the divine comedy & paradise lost etc. ?

Why believe there is a soul when every facet of your being can be explained and mapped in regions of your brain & circuits within it.

Maybe you could answer this one which has bothered me.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not Omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurus

I don't believe in your "modern day" concept of hell. Hell is knowing that you chose to come here, you failed your promises, and can never be with your father again, (or ever be an "eternal father")

you try to bring a dead person back to life. (spirit, not soul. Your soul is the combination of spirit and body)

God can prevent evil, he knows though that we must overcome it in order to be like him. Why would he prevent it if that would be bad for us?

teach that the bible looks pretty much like pan, when the bible says he appears as a beautiful woman in a blue dress? Why lie to your congregation?

So...are you saying you are a Young Earth believer? In which case - do you just ignore science which across every branch has confirmed that the earth is far, far, far older than YEC's believe?

The earth may be older, Humanity is not. prove using carbon dating (not accurate past a few thousand years, and not even very accurate than) that they are.

Why does the bible say 'thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain', when it also says that no human can ever know his name. Ie. The Tetragrammaton, 'the unknowable, unspeakable name of god'.

"Taking upon yourself the name of god" is being baptized, and taking the sacrament. It means, "don't get baptized for no reason. It is insulting to the atonement."

I'll do the rest in a few

That last one's interesting. If that's what's meant by it, then shouldn't baptism be withheld until a person is mature enough to make a discerning decision? Around, say, 18 or 21.

My church belives that the age of accountability is 8. It seems pretty young for me at first. When I look at it though, That is an age where they are able to have a good understanding of what they're doing. Also, kids who want to be baptised usualy tend to want to be good. That realy goes into effect when you're talking about the sacrament. If someone does something serious (like drugs, or having sex out of wedlock) they shouldn't take the sacrament before they have repented and are worthy.

This is an interesting thread.

On the topic of 'how God created man through evolution', why do you want to know? What's the relevance? Are you saying it's impossible for Him to do this? Are you wondering why He did it?

About evolution... I don't know enough facts to find out about that. I don't belive he just "let monkeys become people" I don't know what he did do though.

Shader, according to the bible, satan will appear to man as the most beautiful woman imaginable. He's all about temptation, so i've heard. The concept of satan as a pan-like figure was all catholic. They needed an excuse to off some pagans, so they used an image of a local god and claimed the hippies were devil worshippers.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

About evolution... I don't know enough facts to find out about that.

How old are you? Have you gone through high school as yet? If not, then I recommend taking AP Biology (if you're in the US). If yes, then you need to read some evolution textbooks.

Shader, according to the bible, satan will appear to man as the most beautiful woman imaginable. He's all about temptation, so i've heard. The concept of satan as a pan-like figure was all catholic. They needed an excuse to off some pagans, so they used an image of a local god and claimed the hippies were devil worshippers.

Interesting. (I'm not going to bash other religions, but my personal opinion on the catholic church is VERY negative. I think they are a cause of many atheists)

How old are you? Have you gone through high school as yet? If not, then I recommend taking AP Biology (if you're in the US). If yes, then you need to read some evolution textbooks.

It's not understanding evolution. That's easy. It's the change of a ratio of genetic traits in a genetic pool due to the due process of natural selection. 8) (I didn't look it up either) It's facts about humans, and how they find human or ape like skulls in remote parts of the world. I can't figure that into my overall outlook. It's the one problem I have. (I don't have all the answers, I know.)
As for my age, I'm young... but not that young. Do I realy sound that Juvinile? I live in Las Vegas, so yes... I live in America. I took pre A.P. but not A.P. biology. I was more interested in mechanical engineering, and took all the physics and math I could.

Why is killing sinful, but it's ok for god to wipe out humanity with a flood for pissing him off? If god understands the concept of love, why would he send any man to hell for eternity? Why would he send good men to hell, simply for being non-christian? If god loves his children, why does he hate gays?

The flood saved humanity. There was so much evil that there was almost no chance for a child to grow up good. So, God took the few that were good off the face of the earth, and started again.

He doesn't send them. Hell is a state of mind. God actually sends you where you will be the happiest (talking about the three kingdoms of glory, Celestrial tellestrial, and terrestrial) Your hell is not being with him. If you sin and don't, being in god's presance will be unbearable. He puts you in a place you will be comfortable with.

He doesn't sent good people to hell for being non-christian. Remember what I said about hell, than also remember that you will be juged on your knowlage. Also, my church practices ordinences that let a person after he has died chose. You must be baptised and married for all eternity to enter the highest level of the celestrial kingdom.

If god is perfect, why does he change his mind about vengeance in the new testament? why did he destroy sodom for impure sexual practices, but save lot and his daughters, who then had sex with their father and their children became the leaders of the tribes of israel, evidently as reward. Please explain what made lot virtuous.

Lot: It's the Old testement. nice try.
Joseph Smith translation of the Bible
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exonerates Lot. In the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible Lot's actions read this way:

"And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes; For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof." [3] In other words, this translation changes his offer of his daughters to the men of Sodom to a plea that they not touch his daughters. Other church readings of Lot match closely the traditional Christian view.
That's actually from Wikipedia. I didn't want to get it wrong

"Please explain why david and solomon's kingdom of israel , which supposedly bordered on egypt, but the egyptians do not corroborate this. Wwhy is there is no evidence of solomon and david?"

don' know, I'll get back to you on this one.

If god is everywhere, how can he also have a body? The bible states that he's carried around heaven by angels. The cherubim, as i recall. Why do christians believe angels are beautiful, when the bible states that they're quite scary things with three heads. Have they never read the book they preach?

angel is a vague referance. Angels are people who have made it into one of the two bottom levels of the celestrial kingdom (I forget witch) The heads and wings are figurative. They are symolic. Try reading the book of revelation without symbolism in mind, and you'll be lost. There's alot of symolism in the bible that has been mistaken for being literaly true. Also alot of fact that has been taken as symbolism. Here's a job for you. Tell me how The tabernacle moses made in the wilderness (wich is true, not just symbolism) represents the plan of salvation using symbolism. :wink:

Not all angels are cherubims either. Cherubim is like... a station, or calling. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (sometimes called the "Mormons) views angels as the messengers of God sent to mankind to deliver messages, minister to humanity, teach doctrines of salvation, call mankind to repentance, give priesthood keys, save individuals in perilous times, and guide mankind.[17]

According to official doctrine

"These are the messengers of the Lord, and are spoken of in the epistle to the Hebrews as 'ministering spirits'. We learn from latter-day revelation that there are two classes of heavenly beings who minister for the Lord: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied), or who have once had a mortal body and have died, and are awaiting the resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word 'angel' means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah, etc. (D&C 129)."
Another one from the wiki. Don't bash the source. It's USUALY right. If I'm wrong, It only works for you."

"Shaderwolf, you mean jesus sounds like buddha. Not buddha sounds like jesus. Buddha was around 400 years before christ."

I'll get back to this one to.

On the topic of 'how God created man through evolution', why do you want to know? What's the relevance? Are you saying it's impossible for Him to do this? Are you wondering why He did it?

He did it so that we could become like him, and get bodies (we didn't have bodies before earth)
It would not be impossible he can do anything. I just don't know what my church says about it. I'm pretty sure we say god didn't just "let" people evolve from monkeys.
again, I realy just need to look up in the church database.

I thinl that's everything, isn't it? I'll get back with the two I didn't know. Anything else?

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

The flood saved humanity. There was so much evil that there was almost no chance for a child to grow up good. So, God took the few that were good off the face of the earth, and started again.

So, from this fairy tale we can conclude one of two things, or both together.

1. Your god is a cruel, immoral bastard.

2. Your god made a critical error and had to start over.

Shaderwolf, you have not given a single reasonable answer, whenever we ask a question you either dismiss it or give an answer essentially boiling down to it/he just does.

the flood of Noah's time never happened, there's not a lick of evidence for it & there would be if the entire planet was covered in water (which came from where exactly!)
I don't believe the 3 kingdoms of heaven are actually in the bible so the church made it up. I think you might be referring to the divine comedy; a drama: fiction! By your definition we are all in hell right now (atheists anyway!)

As for the evolution issue, yes the basics are easy but the details are intricate & require thought and some reading I recommend any science lit book on it (esp dawkins!) Is not just humans arriving from apes, where do the apes come from and so on travelling it back to bacteria & plants etc.. On the topic, when exactly do these chimpanzees stop being chimps and gain a soul to become the image of God??? Was it May 14th 4035 BC? If you understand the implications of evolution its that God did no lead it anywhere or do anything, evolution is a natural process which gets rid of the necessity of a god to explain life as it is.

I really just need to look up in the church database.

Also this worries me. If this is a debate for your own faith you should not need the church to tell you what to say!

Just for the record, dinosaurs died out 65 mya, Robbie.

It seems you do not have any new answers for us, shaderwolf? The most interesting ones, like what about the skulls and such found that are more than 6000 years old, you don't have an answer for. What about: What evidence do you have that any of you are decendants of the tribes Benjamin etc?

I find the title of this thread confusing...

Yup.
...
.....

:?
........



You're right. This is a debate that I cannot win. I wanted to know some arguments, as I said, "challenge my beliefs" or faith in my own religion. I will answer your posts, and correct some of my own posting problems. In this post, you were supposed to prove atheism. I couldn't prove otherwise. I just don't know enough.

So, from this fairy tale we can conclude one of two things, or both together.
1. Your god is a cruel, immoral *.
2. Your god made a critical error and had to start over.

He let humanity fail. taught us a lesson. The history channel again had a show that gave scientific proof that in a place in the middle east, (dead sea?)something "like" that could have happened. I guess for now I'll go on faith.

Robbie:

Alot of the questions did not relate particularly to the beliefs of my religion. (questions, such as cherubums, dante's hell, and the devil looking like a ram) That may be why you felt as if I was shrugging of some of these questions. The three kingdoms can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. In D&C 76, our prophet just clarified what was already there.

On the topic, when exactly do these chimpanzees stop being chimps and gain a soul to become the image of God???

I don't think we evolved at all from monkeys/chimps.

evolution is a natural process which gets rid of the necessity of a god to explain life as it is.

It explains a part of life, just as physics does. I don't believe that it removes the necessity of god. there are still many questions in evolution that still can't be answered. Questions, about why a creature would even start to evolve a specific body part.

I really just need to look up in the church database.

I didn't know the answer. If my church, wich I believe is always right had a bad answer, That would have been different.

In a way, we are in hell... We don't suffer so bad because we don't remember god.
KASTER:

My father is of the tribe of Ephrem. That's what the stake patriarch said when he got his patriarchal blessing. That's all the proof I have. If you weren't a literal decedent, you were adopted into it by the church, so we all share the blessings of Abraham.

Again. I believe that this world did exist before humanity.
many questions here are posted because of misunderstandings, most because of beliefs of other churches.

I do want to correct myself in one spot. The Lot thing. I gave an explanation for the wrong event. Lot, didn't know that he had sex with his daughters.

King Solomon, built the Temple that everyone in the middle east is fighting over... you know... The temple in Jerusalem.

Budah, the story is similar. For me though, not close enough. You fixed a mistake. I believed wrong. That's not even what the church says. (about him going)

I forgot to hit the gay thing. He doesn't hate gays. Homosexuality is a choice. It is a sin. It makes him sad when they do it, because they can not be with him. It makes him mad, because they are doing something so wrong.

I'm enjoying myself. We could keep up. Other people could join me maybe? Correct me instead of just saying my answers don't cut the mustard? It's a good way for me to learn and remember. I'm trying to give good explanations.

I named this thread "proving atheism" because they were supposed to prove to me that I was wrong, and they were right. They have been doing a pretty good job so far. My question for you, why have recent geological discoveries only given proof that what was said in the Book of Mormon was true?
How is it that a young boy in New York with no schooling suddenly comes upon a slew of real hieroglyphs?
How can Christ not exist, if my father has seen him? If my father was literally brought back from the dead, after a horrible accident?
How about what I know. What I feel, every time that I truly study the scriptures? There is something there. It's like explaining to you what salt tastes like. I know that my heavenly father lives, and loves me. When I die, I'll be taught all of the questions that I had.

I'm sorry if this discussion was a disappointment to you. I tried my best. You have just heard the beliefs of a true "brainwashed" man. I'm brainwashing my kids to. I hope It'll make them as happy as it has made me.

I'm happy to continue the conversation.
Not in a debating manner, with a winner or loser. Just a friendly conversation.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

It explains a part of life, just as physics does. I don't believe that it removes the necessity of god. there are still many questions in evolution that still can't be answered.

Why does the fact that evolution can't explain everything translate to God being necessary? Evolution isn't a miracle theory - it has a scope outside of which it cannot address. Creationists tend to put more of a burden on evolution than there should be.

Questions, about why a creature would even start to evolve a specific body part.

Because it's useful in some way. Maybe not the same way that the limb TODAY is useful, but useful in its own way in its own time.
In regards to recent geological finds, heiroglyphics, I have no idea what you're talking about. In regards to your dad, I don't believe he actually saw Christ, or rose from the dead. Maybe he was out for a minute and was revived or something but that happens to Christians, atheists, and anyone else.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

I'm happy to continue the conversation.
Not in a debating manner, with a winner or loser. Just a friendly conversation.

Agreed. What the-

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

Do I realy sound that Juvinile? I live in Las Vegas, so yes... I live in America. I took pre A.P. but not A.P. biology. I was more interested in mechanical engineering, and took all the physics and math I could.

No, you don't sound Juvenile at all. I was just wondering if you already took a high school Biology course to determine whether it'd be best if you just read an evolution textbook.

[quote="Shaderwolf"]


Robbie:

Alot of the questions did not relate particularly to the beliefs of my religion. (questions, such as cherubums, dante's hell, and the devil looking like a ram) That may be why you felt as if I was shrugging of some of these questions. The three kingdoms can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. In D&C 76, our prophet just clarified what was already there.

On the topic, when exactly do these chimpanzees stop being chimps and gain a soul to become the image of God???

I don't think we evolved at all from monkeys/chimps.

evolution is a natural process which gets rid of the necessity of a god to explain life as it is.

It explains a part of life, just as physics does. I don't believe that it removes the necessity of god. there are still many questions in evolution that still can't be answered. Questions, about why a creature would even start to evolve a specific body part.

I really just need to look up in the church database.

I didn't know the answer. If my church, wich I believe is always right had a bad answer, That would have been different.


I concur with your points on dantes etc, Im just trying to gauge your level/type of belief.

The development of limb has been quite adequately observed in evolution, we have even observed that the pentadactyl limb used to be the octodactyl limb with 8 fingers.

If you dont believe that we evolved from chimps I cannot argue without arguing creationism vs evolution which I doubt anyone wants to happen here. The majority here concur you should read an evolution book if you truly want to challenge your belief, I agree with them.

Why do you believe that God is not a manmade entity since "God" arrived about the same time (in fact later) as civilised modern man, and why should God be taken any more seriously than a Greek/Egyptian God which was invented long before the Christian God?

australopithecus afarensis skeleton, lucy:


pay close attention to the hip. the fossilized skeleton was found in 3.2 million year old rocks.


human skeleton.


chimpanzee skeleton.

the hip structure is unique for australopithecus, unmistakably similar to a human hip, which proves this monkey walked upright.

a page about lucy:

http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/l...arensis-a.html

Way back TvEye asked:

Please explain why the egyptians have no record of the migration of the jews. Why didn't they take any note of the plagues of frogs and locusts and all their slaves leaving?

Actually, they did. A year or two ago, there was a program on History Channel in which an archeologist discovered the records of these things happening considerably long before the reign of Rameses II which is the era in which most historians have attempted to place the Exodus.

The documentary also showed how most of the plagues could have occurred as the result of natural phenomena and described a recent event which closely paralleled the Bible events.

While I do not swallow everything this program had to offer, I thought it was valuable from the aspect that there is archeological evidence of the presence of the Israelites in Egypt and their exodus from Egypt including pointing out what was likely Mt. Sanai.

There is no archaeological evidence of an exodus from Egypt.

If there is, please cite it that it might be discussed. There is, of course, evidence for Jews and Canaanites in Egypt, but nothing that marks a mass exodus from Egypt other than the Hyksos expulsion in which Canaanites were run out of Lower Egypt.

I just started reading this thread.

TvEye said:

Shader, according to the bible, satan will appear to man as the most beautiful woman imaginable.

Can you cite the verse you think says that?

Skinwalker doubted:

There is no archaeological evidence of an exodus from Egypt.

If there is, please cite it that it might be discussed. There is, of course, evidence for Jews and Canaanites in Egypt, but nothing that marks a mass exodus from Egypt other than the Hyksos expulsion in which Canaanites were run out of Lower Egypt.

You will have to question the scholarship of Simcha Jacobovici and his documentary which is discussed in Wikipedia at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded

I have seen other things by Jacobovici which I did not find to be very scholarly. However, he claims to have uncovered archaeological evidence of the Exodus. This program is rerun occasionally on the History Channel. You might watch for it. Even if total fabrication, it is an interesting fabrication. He conjectures that the Hyksos accompanied the Israelites, parting ways after they had crossed the (Reed) Red Sea.

I can't help but notice the involvement of James Cameron in the documentary.

These people are all Cannuckers for whatever that might mean. Cameron, whose religious affiliation is unknown to me (I suspect Jewish), does the narration, but does not appear to have had anything to do with the writing, direction or production of the documentary.

I do not know if KALSTER considers Cameron's participation as lending credibility or undermining credibility to the show. Or if he just find it interesting that a famous movie writer, director, producer participated in the endeavor.

Originally Posted by Shaderwolf

He let humanity fail. taught us a lesson.

Humanities failure is HIS failure. The lesson he taught is that he is a cruel, immoral mass murderer who couldn't face up to his own shortcomings but instead inflicted his own incompetence as a wrath upon mankind.

The history channel again had a show that gave scientific proof that in a place in the middle east, (dead sea?)something "like" that could have happened. I guess for now I'll go on faith.

Faith in prime time television?

First, Shaderwolf, I commend you for taking part in this discussion and for inviting tough questions.

Remember though that religion is a conclusion in search of facts to support it, whereas science first looks at the facts and then draws conclusions. Keep an open mind and keep asking questions (all of us). Good thread though. :-)

One other thing - your topic header says "proving atheism." Atheism does not need to be "proved", as it is not making any claims. It is "God" that needs to be proved by those who claim his existence.

It is naive to think you can disprove that something does not occur... Thus, you can't prove athiesm.
But here is my question...
If you believe in god, then why does the church always change the bible, assigns its own saints (as if they could make gods decisions) and the whole little notion that if you tell someone that god is talking to you, you are dubbed insane... unless you lived 2000 years ago of course!

For their own selfish desires. I only wish people could believe like me. It feels great having all these abilities that God has given me .

Originally Posted by svwillmer

For their own selfish desires. I only wish people could believe like me. It feels great having all these abilities that God has given me .

Ah, the blissfully ignorant... an ability from god, yessiree.

Originally Posted by (Q)

Originally Posted by svwillmer

For their own selfish desires. I only wish people could believe like me. It feels great having all these abilities that God has given me .

Ah, the blissfully ignorant... an ability from god, yessiree.

Thats why I'm happy with my life AND DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING NOR BLAME SOMETHING FOR IT.

I do not know if KALSTER considers Cameron's participation as lending credibility or undermining credibility to the show. Or if he just find it interesting that a famous movie writer, director, producer participated in the endeavor.

Oh, sorry. I confused James Cameron with Kirk Cameron. Carry-on regardless. :wink:

Originally Posted by KALSTER

I do not know if KALSTER considers Cameron's participation as lending credibility or undermining credibility to the show. Or if he just find it interesting that a famous movie writer, director, producer participated in the endeavor.

Oh, sorry. I confused James Cameron with Kirk Cameron. Carry-on regardless. :wink:

Kirk Cameron is one reason why atheists fear for the future. Creationists like him are flat out dangerous.

True.

Kirk cameron? From growing pains? Yeah, he seemed pretty dangerous. I'm personally worried about the guy from major dad, or tapanga from boy meets world. I think they're both going to snap.

Yes, the guy from growing pains. But he is no longer an innocent teen. He is a very outspoken creationist that might kill the potential ability for many people to be able to have a passably objective and analytical way of looking at things, which you loose when you become a creationist.

Originally Posted by TvEye

Kirk cameron? From growing pains? Yeah, he seemed pretty dangerous. I'm personally worried about the guy from major dad, or tapanga from boy meets world. I think they're both going to snap.

Watch his piece on how bananas prove God. I think that makes my case all by itself

Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to listen to the guy from growing pains has -already- lost his ability to think rationally. Nothing personal, of course. He seemed like a nice person in that episode where the seevers gave leonardo di caprio a good home.