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Thread: Jesus whatever.

  1. #1 Jesus whatever. 
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    If we are all gods children why is Jesus so special.

    The guy was just a tool of propaganda.


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  3. #2 Re: Jesus whatever. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    If we are all gods children why is Jesus so special.

    The guy was just a tool of propaganda.
    Was your mother a virgin ?! no, Mary was.


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  4. #3 Re: Jesus whatever. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by xairliber
    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    If we are all gods children why is Jesus so special.

    The guy was just a tool of propaganda.
    Was your mother a virgin ?!
    yes at one time in her life
    Quote Originally Posted by xairliber
    no, Mary was.
    and so was my mum. What I think you mean is, she had a virgin birth, well how do you know this.
    what evidence is there, and I do mean verifiable evidence and please dont say because it says it in the bible, an extrabiblical verifiable source please.
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  5. #4 Re: Jesus whatever. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by xairliber
    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    If we are all gods children why is Jesus so special.

    The guy was just a tool of propaganda.
    Was your mother a virgin ?!
    yes at one time in her life
    Quote Originally Posted by xairliber
    no, Mary was.
    and so was my mum. What I think you mean is, she had a virgin birth, well how do you know this.
    what evidence is there, and I do mean verifiable evidence and please dont say because it says it in the bible, an extrabiblical verifiable source please.
    I travelled back in time, she was a virgin just before she gave birth. Her hymen was intact until birth destroyed it.
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  6. #5  
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    Mary was no virgin, that's a mistranslation made by Matthew from Isaiah. Just look it up in the first chapter or two in Matthew & it makes a direct reference to there being a translation which was incorrect (in Isaiah 11 I think, might be wrong) the bible openly admits it. This just happened to catch on by peoples ignorance.

    This is an example of how Matthew is not accurately written, this mistranslation shows he's writing a story based on predictions, there is no indication this is actually true or based on anything he saw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Mary was no virgin, that's a mistranslation made by Matthew from Isaiah. Just look it up in the first chapter or two in Matthew & it makes a direct reference to there being a translation which was incorrect (in Isaiah 11 I think, might be wrong) the bible openly admits it. This just happened to catch on by peoples ignorance.

    This is an example of how Matthew is not accurately written, this mistranslation shows he's writing a story based on predictions, there is no indication this is actually true or based on anything he saw.
    Isiah was a prophet, Matthew was a witness to Christ. Isiah came before Matthew.
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    Look it up, its there in plain writing, its a mistranslation. It's WRONG. This is not a belief issue.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Look it up, its there in plain writing, its a mistranslation. It's WRONG. This is not a belief issue.
    I can't be bothered to. It sounds like bullsh!t atheists have come up with to try and disprove God. They are cheating by chaning the text, and they say religious nuts that do that are bad.
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    ok I've done it for you: if Im wrong it should not be hard to disprove me just look it up yourself!

    Matthew 1:23
    A virgin will become pregnant & have a son and he will be called Immanuel"

    It also in this chapter explains how Joseph is a descendent of David & how he had no sexual relations with Mary until Jesus' birth. (by the way how can Jesus be a descendent of Joseph if Marys a virgin???)

    This is a reference to:
    Isaiah 7:14
    "Well then the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son & you will name him Immanuel."

    Then there is a notation at the bottom of the explaining how young woman was translated from Hebrew into Greek (old vs new testament) in a further version of the old testament 500 years after Isaiah was written and how young woman here in no way has any reference of a woman being a virgin, only that she is of marriageable age.

    Case dismissed, its in your own bible you should believe this! Its nothing to do with atheism.
    I have a funny feeling you wont be writing back to this thread!
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    so hows that work? was joseph impotent?

    what i think really happened was that mary was sleeping with a neighbour due to joseph having "problems" and when she got pregnant and started to panic, she clutched at straws and said "god did it",poor gullable joseph
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    Actually, it was quite a common excuse for a young, unmarried girl in that era to claim her conception was immaculate. You'd be disowned for having sex out of wedlock, possibly even stoned to death. What would you tell your father when he finds out you're pregnant? Admit you had premarital sex, when you know he believes in immaculate conceptions?
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    ok I've done it for you: if Im wrong it should not be hard to disprove me just look it up yourself!

    Matthew 1:23
    A virgin will become pregnant & have a son and he will be called Immanuel"

    It also in this chapter explains how Joseph is a descendent of David & how he had no sexual relations with Mary until Jesus' birth. (by the way how can Jesus be a descendent of Joseph if Marys a virgin???)

    This is a reference to:
    Isaiah 7:14
    "Well then the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son & you will name him Immanuel."

    Then there is a notation at the bottom of the explaining how young woman was translated from Hebrew into Greek (old vs new testament) in a further version of the old testament 500 years after Isaiah was written and how young woman here in no way has any reference of a woman being a virgin, only that she is of marriageable age.

    Case dismissed, its in your own bible you should believe this! Its nothing to do with atheism.
    I have a funny feeling you wont be writing back to this thread!
    It just exlpains nothing. It honestly made no sense to me. By your judgement how can these men have any truth anyway? I thought by you they were delusional crackpots so why should I believe you if you are being hypocritical?

    Isiah was a prophet like Mohammed, how the hell was he to be right? Besides on the same line as your belief the church chose Issiah because it suited them spread their religion-like the only chose 4 new testament gospels of the disciples. So again your point is contradicted.
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  14. #13  
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    Really though none of you beleive so I don't see where you have the right to question religion if your always going to be arrogant, contradicting, rude, ignorant and condescending about your views.

    I don't comment on atheism and any time I have in the past (atheism derives drom childhood deprivation) I get my head ripped off. I don't really see I should bother and your efforts against me seem more to putting me down than trying to change me to an atheist. Or just taking the p*ss-caveman.
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    You cant say I'm arrogant for that, I looked it up, its IN the bible. The quotations didnt need to make sense exactly, all it is in Isaiah is the prediction of Jesus coming which would be from a young woman, the word young was mistranslated further on into virgin woman & this is mentioned in Matthew (only Matthew), & this is the source of all our beliefs in Mary & the immaculate conception.
    It is still a minor detail, it shouldnt really affect your belief.

    I was a firmly believing Christian this time last year & became atheist, I dont think childhood deprivation had much to do with it!
    There is nothing said against you here in this forum its all controversy over the bible.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    You cant say I'm arrogant for that, I looked it up, its IN the bible. The quotations didnt need to make sense exactly, all it is in Isaiah is the prediction of Jesus coming which would be from a young woman, the word young was mistranslated further on into virgin woman & this is mentioned in Matthew (only Matthew), & this is the source of all our beliefs in Mary & the immaculate conception.
    It is still a minor detail, it shouldnt really affect your belief.

    I was a firmly believing Christian this time last year & became atheist, I dont think childhood deprivation had much to do with it!
    There is nothing said against you here in this forum its all controversy over the bible.
    I've doubted recently and felt horrible. I really did. I did not want to not believe. I love God and Jesus and would never want to stop loving them.
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    Been there, theres a certain letting go involved which I found liberating but can be frightening.
    At the end of the day choose what's right for you, but for myself, I believe you have to act with integrity and for me, that meant I couldn't honestly continue to believe something which I was certain was wrong. If for you believing matters enough to affect you day to day then stick with it.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Been there, theres a certain letting go involved which I found liberating but can be frightening.
    At the end of the day choose what's right for you, but for myself, I believe you have to act with integrity and for me, that meant I couldn't honestly continue to believe something which I was certain for me was wrong. If for you believing matters enough to affect you day to day then stick with it.
    You know what happens to those who have believed and stopped believing don't you? I hope that doesn't happen to you or KALSTER. I'll take your place if you are.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Been there, theres a certain letting go involved which I found liberating but can be frightening.
    At the end of the day choose what's right for you, but for myself, I believe you have to act with integrity and for me, that meant I couldn't honestly continue to believe something which I was certain for me was wrong. If for you believing matters enough to affect you day to day then stick with it.
    You know what happens to those who have believed and stopped believing don't you? I hope that doesn't happen to you or KALSTER. I'll take your place if you are.
    I'm sorry but you're complaining about people insulting you (and nothing in this thread is even that bad...) and then turn around and insinuate that they're going to burn in hell for eternity. But it's "atheists are mean" on one side and "religious belief" on the other.
    Also, one reason why atheists DO sometimes get a little haughty (admit it guys, we do sometimes) is because more often than not legit arguments and points get dismissed. "Virgin" being mistranslated IS an absolutely legitimate point but instead of actually examining the issue and considering the possiblity, Christians dismiss it with statements like "It sounds like bullsh!t atheists have come up with to try and disprove God".
    Pure dismissal.
    And for the record God's existence doesn't depend on whether or not Jesus was a virgin birth. Jesus's divinity doesn't depend on it either for that matter. Jesus very well could have been born the Son of God 9 months after Joseph bent Mary over a stable fence. Pardon the adult image :P
    And for the record I'm not attacking you or your beliefs in any way(intentionally at least). I actually like you and welcome your contributions to this forum and hope you stick around.
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  20. #19  
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    Jesus very well could have been born the Son of God 9 months after Joseph bent Mary over a stable fence. Pardon the adult image :P
    Excellent point!!!

    Yeah I dont think that your belief that I'll burn in hell if I dont believe in christ is much of a convincing argument for converting since.... I dont believe in it! But Ill take that one on the shoulder.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I've doubted recently and felt horrible. I really did. I did not want to not believe. I love God and Jesus and would never want to stop loving them.
    unfortunately thats what indoctrination/brainwashing has done to you.
    doubting is healthy, asking questions is healthy, allowing others to do the thinking for you is not, be your own man' Please dont say you are, your not. Only you can change you mind nobody else can, nobody wishes you to be anything you aren't already, it's just been suppressed by your indoctrination.
    also if you ever do see the light dont blame your parents for the lies/indoctrination they knew no better, they too were more than likely indoctrinated.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Been there, theres a certain letting go involved which I found liberating but can be frightening.
    At the end of the day choose what's right for you, but for myself, I believe you have to act with integrity and for me, that meant I couldn't honestly continue to believe something which I was certain for me was wrong. If for you believing matters enough to affect you day to day then stick with it.
    You know what happens to those who have believed and stopped believing don't you? I hope that doesn't happen to you or KALSTER. I'll take your place if you are.
    I'm sorry but you're complaining about people insulting you (and nothing in this thread is even that bad...) and then turn around and insinuate that they're going to burn in hell for eternity. But it's "atheists are mean" on one side and "religious belief" on the other.
    Also, one reason why atheists DO sometimes get a little haughty (admit it guys, we do sometimes) is because more often than not legit arguments and points get dismissed. "Virgin" being mistranslated IS an absolutely legitimate point but instead of actually examining the issue and considering the possiblity, Christians dismiss it with statements like "It sounds like bullsh!t atheists have come up with to try and disprove God".
    Pure dismissal.
    And for the record God's existence doesn't depend on whether or not Jesus was a virgin birth. Jesus's divinity doesn't depend on it either for that matter. Jesus very well could have been born the Son of God 9 months after Joseph bent Mary over a stable fence. Pardon the adult image :P
    And for the record I'm not attacking you or your beliefs in any way(intentionally at least). I actually like you and welcome your contributions to this forum and hope you stick around.
    Atheists dismiss God without showing evidence, I've not once seen evidence against God so don't expect me to even consider your point of view unless you show me some evidence. I try to show you evidence but no one listens. All I say is this. If God showed up, answered everyones prayers etc etc would you believe He was God?

    PS I never said people will burn in hell if they don't believe did I?
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I've doubted recently and felt horrible. I really did. I did not want to not believe. I love God and Jesus and would never want to stop loving them.
    unfortunately thats what indoctrination/brainwashing has done to you.
    doubting is healthy, asking questions is healthy, allowing others to do the thinking for you is not, be your own man' Please dont say you are, your not. Only you can change you mind nobody else can, nobody wishes you to be anything you aren't already, it's just been suppressed by your indoctrination.
    also if you ever do see the light dont blame your parents for the lies/indoctrination they knew no better, they too were more than likely indoctrinated.
    If someone came along and started dissing your family and told you to stop loving them and seeing them whatwould your response be. I am emotionally attached to God and Christ regardless if I can pyhsically see Them.
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  24. #23  
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    No but you implicated

    Strictly speaking I am not an atheist, I am a hard agnostic, I dont know if there is a God, neiter do you nor does anyone else on this planet KNOW. Hence the necessity for the term belief.
    You say there is no evidence for or against a god (against at least!)
    Perhaps I would have to agree strictly on such a question, but interpretation of current scientific fact would lead one to believe there is not.

    Ultimately by evidence, I dont know if there is a god, but if there is, there is enough fact to allow one conclude it most certainly is not like the one described in the text of any current major religion.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    No but you implicated

    Strictly speaking I am not an atheist, I am a hard agnostic, I dont know if there is a God, neiter do you nor does anyone else on this planet KNOW. Hence the necessity for the term belief.
    You say there is no evidence for or against a god (against at least!)
    Perhaps I would have to agree strictly on such a question, but interpretation of current scientific fact would lead one to believe there is not.

    Ultimately by evidence, I dont know if there is a god, but if there is, there is enough fact to allow one conclude it most certainly is not like the one described in the text of any current major religion.
    Bottom line:

    Our evidence against God is VERY weak, we can't build quantum thingy majigs. (That includes every sophisticated tech imaginable). But the text of The Bible being changed every translation doesn't help either. Lets raid the Vatican city and get all the evidence we need.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Atheists dismiss God without showing evidence, I've not once seen evidence against God so don't expect me to even consider your point of view unless you show me some evidence.
    Do you believe everything that doesn't have "evidence against it" exists? Buddha, Allah, Zeus, unicorns, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for example?
    There's a reason why we expect positive evidence before believing in things.

    try to show you evidence but no one listens. All I say is this. If God showed up, answered everyones prayers etc etc would you believe He was God?
    While it wouldn't be definitive *proof* of God (which as an agnostic I don't believe is possible), it would probably satisfy my personal standard of evidence. I'd probably believe it were God. I think it would take less than that for me to believe but where i draw the line, I don't know.

    PS I never said people will burn in hell if they don't believe did I?
    I'm not sure what else you were implying when you said "You know what happens to those who have believed and stopped believing don't you?" if not that. Denying the Holy Spirit, to my understanding, is the worst and possibly the only unforgivable sin in the Bible so I figured that's what you were referencing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    ...I figured that's what you were referencing.
    No evidence to prove I meant that or not.
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    No evidence to prove I meant that or not.
    If you are concerned about being misrepresented why don't you just TELL US what you meant instead of dancing around like that. If not...just move on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    No evidence to prove I meant that or not.
    If you are concerned about being misrepresented why don't you just TELL US what you meant instead of dancing around like that. If not...just move on?
    Good idea, I'm a mile away :-D.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I've doubted recently and felt horrible. I really did. I did not want to not believe. I love God and Jesus and would never want to stop loving them.
    unfortunately thats what indoctrination/brainwashing has done to you.
    doubting is healthy, asking questions is healthy, allowing others to do the thinking for you is not, be your own man' Please dont say you are, your not. Only you can change you mind nobody else can, nobody wishes you to be anything you aren't already, it's just been suppressed by your indoctrination.
    also if you ever do see the light dont blame your parents for the lies/indoctrination they knew no better, they too were more than likely indoctrinated.
    If someone came along and started dissing your family and told you to stop loving them and seeing them what would your response be. I am emotionally attached to God and Christ regardless if I can pyhsically see Them.
    that what I said you have been so deeply brainwashed you believe you love god, they arn't your family, they are figments of your imagination and yes you can see them, in your minds eye, you were condiction for this, but you never had a choice in the matter, they can get brainwashed people to do anything even kill, all it takes is condictioning, you have been condiction from your birth, so it is not surprising you think you love god. nobody is dissing your parents, just the imaginary thing you believe you see. if it wasn't your imaginary god you were refering too you would be locked up for being delusional, it's the accepted insanity.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I've doubted recently and felt horrible. I really did. I did not want to not believe. I love God and Jesus and would never want to stop loving them.
    unfortunately thats what indoctrination/brainwashing has done to you.
    doubting is healthy, asking questions is healthy, allowing others to do the thinking for you is not, be your own man' Please dont say you are, your not. Only you can change you mind nobody else can, nobody wishes you to be anything you aren't already, it's just been suppressed by your indoctrination.
    also if you ever do see the light dont blame your parents for the lies/indoctrination they knew no better, they too were more than likely indoctrinated.
    If someone came along and started dissing your family and told you to stop loving them and seeing them what would your response be. I am emotionally attached to God and Christ regardless if I can pyhsically see Them.
    that what I said you have been so deeply brainwashed you believe you love god, they arn't your family, they are figments of your imagination and yes you can see them, in your minds eye, you were condiction for this, but you never had a choice in the matter, they can get brainwashed people to do anything even kill, all it takes is condictioning, you have been condiction from your birth, so it is not surprising you think you love god. nobody is dissing your parents, just the imaginary thing you believe you see. if it wasn't your imaginary god you were refering too you would be lock up for being delusional, it's the accepted insanity.
    I haven't been brainwashed at all. I started believing a year ago-before that I didn't care. I've never spoken to anyone about it-clergy men or anything. I've come this far alone. When I first started I was very judgmental and said almost everyone was going to hell and even told them, but now I'm different-I'm much better understanding people and more considerate. All I have is The Bible and The Internet, my belief is my own doing. I just believed one day, for no reason, out of the blue. It is not a delusion, how can God not exist if there wasn't a notion of God in the first place?
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    There's a notion of the boggy monster but we dont believe in it. Dont be confused into the argument that if enough people believe it its true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    There's a notion of the boggy monster but we dont believe in it. Dont be confused into the argument that if enough people believe it its true.
    Atheists do that too, unfortuantley. They are in the same boat.
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    No they are not in the same boat. A couple times now you've tried to equate theism and atheism in some way - it doesn't usually work. Atheists usually are atheisms *because of* the evidence and not *in spite of* the evidence (or lack thereof). If you want to claim it's the "same boat" maybe you can substantiate it?
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  35. #34  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    ...argument that if enough people believe it its true
    There are some atheists that do this as well. Its called conformity.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  36. #35  
    Forum Senior TvEye's Avatar
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    It's called argumentum ad populous.
    "First we build the tools, then they build us" - Marshall McLuhan.
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  37. #36  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    It's called argumentum ad populous.
    Bandwagon fallacy
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  38. #37  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    If I may, schwillmer, did something big and bad happen to you round about the time you started to believe? Maybe someone close to you died? If this is too personal, I'll leave it alone.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  39. #38  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    If I may, schwillmer, did something big and bad happen to you round about the time you started to believe? Maybe someone close to you died? If this is too personal, I'll leave it alone.
    Not really. Although the love of my life turned me down 4 months earlier. Big shock for me. I've had a REALLY bad run the past five years. At least 12 people close to me have pegged it-including my best friend. The shit hit the fan, gathered again and then went through the ventilation system. Family split up too, but that was after religion. I just started believing, nothing more to it thats all.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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