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Thread: The need for faith

  1. #1 The need for faith 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Why do some need faith more than others, can there be believers who actually don't believe but just want to be part of a club, a group or simply just adopt the 'beliefs' to make themselves wanted somewhere. My belief was sudden and before I even noticed I believed in God! Why are some people more orientated to either reject God or follow religion as a need to help them feel more warmer and safer, or whatever reason that they would believe. Is it actually possible that one can have faith as they need it to survive? To lean on it, even if they themselves believe it is a delusion. Is it to some just another post to lean on for weak people? Does this weakness actually lead to permanent belief in God? Why is there a need for faith with some people?

    I am aware that this is a vauge question but I am curious as to if there can be a grey area to the belief of God.


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  3. #2 Re: The need for faith 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why do some need faith more than others?
    Do we really need it at all? What's wrong with accepting what we are based on what we know? Faith may have once been worth a try but it hasn't delivered.

    Are we better off without it? Is a drug addict better off with more drugs? Faith belongs on the trash heap with other failed human endeavors. A mental disease, a colossal mistake, a glaring human weakness, the epitome of wasted effort all combining to keep us from totally embracing the universe of which we are all a part of.


    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    There is no need for faith.
    the religious are brainwashed to think they need it.

    "Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ass; he is actually ill."
    H.L. Mencken


    Faith, Blind Faith. :.

    There has never existed in the world anything more intensely vile, contemptuous, and dangerous to freedom, peace and progress as deeply held blind faith in organized religions and holy dogmas. The Christian dominated society of this country has painted a lovely picture of the faithful flock and how deserving faithful people are of praise and respect. Beneath the Xian whitewash is the plain hard truth. If a person treated his children half as cruelly as the supposedly divine and omnibenevolent Judeo-Christian blood god has treated his children, the Christians would be out to give him the death penalty. Does belief in cruel gods create cruel people, or do cruel people simply make their gods in their own likeness?

    Faith is the nemesis of logic. Where there is religious faith, there can not be logic. The two are quite completely mutually exclusive. In every endeavor other than religion, if a person accepts things as being true with no quality evidence to support such beliefs, then the person is considered foolish and even contemptible by society. When acting exactly the same way regarding religion, the person is considered as perfectly normal. There is in faith an immunity to reality.

    Faith is the destroyer of science and progress. Faith in gods creates a horrible aversion to change. The status quo is the rule of thumb and the "faithful" conservative Xian's morals are the worn out morals of liberals from forty or so years before him. Yet along he goes dragging his feet. "Why free the slaves? It's in the bible." The faithful Xians were enraged when Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod. "It's a sin" they screamed. "God surely controls the lightning and who are you to interfere?" There was Galileo who was tried by the Catholic Church for sacrilege because he claimed the world was round and that the earth orbited the sun, and not the other way around as the bible says. The Fundies are this very minute all across the country attempting to remove evolution from the science books, even though it is established as fact. The list is endless. Religion and science are mutually exclusive. Christian Science is nothing but an oxymoron.

    Faith is the slaughterer of freedom. If there is a concept more hateful to the hearts of the faithful flock than freedom, then it is unimaginable what it would be. Truly the flock pays due lip service to freedom, but their every endeavor is to control and outlaw it. To pass laws to prohibit sexual preferences in the bedroom of two adults is nothing but pure tyranny. Why do these people care who you're sleeping with? What business is it of there's? The faithful claim that they simply want to live life according to the rules of their god, but they want nothing short of making everyone live by those exact rules. Everywhere you find these faithful people you will see them attempting to control the other people around them. They even have the audacity to claim they are persecuted, simply because people resist them and rail against their bids for totalitarian control. The faithful claim they are patriots, but they resemble old Russian Communism much more closely than capitalism.

    Faith is the destructor of individuality. Everywhere the faithful are trying to enact their version of God's word into law and force the rest of society to be just like them. The faithful proudly claim the title of "Sheep". What more needs be said?

    Faith is the fountainhead of ignorance. The faithful everywhere cast off logic and science as the temptations of Satan. Any science, theory, or fact which contradicts their religion is perceived to be purely evil. This inevitably leads to the embracing of myths and ignorance and the shunning of rational thinking.

    Faith is the procreator of intolerance. Faith like nothing else strengthens intolerance and helps it breed and spread. What else would come about from people who claim as divinely inspired a book which espouses slavery, homophobia, murder, infanticide, genocide, racism, rape and kidnapping in the name of a loving god?

    thanks WOF.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  5. #4  
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    All those in blue you put are the point of the Bible, and of Gods will. Get the drivers and I'm suer you'll understand. But unfortuantley I can never explain something to which one would never listen or understand. Just because you cannot measure something it does not mean it isn't there. How do you know time is time? It could be something all together different.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    All those in blue you put are the point of the Bible, and of Gods will.
    Lol, could not agree more,
    The Bible/God is the nemesis of logic.
    The Bible/God is the destroyer of science and progress.
    The Bible/God is the slaughterer of freedom.
    The Bible/God is the destructor of individuality.
    The Bible/God is the fountainhead of ignorance.
    The Bible/God is the procreator of intolerance.
    well noticed, good on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    How do you know time is time? It could be something all together different.
    however it will still react like time, move like time, etc...regardless of what you call it.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  7. #6 Re: The need for faith 
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why do some need faith more than others,
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    ...can there be believers who actually don't believe but just want to be part of a club,
    Yes. It's my theory that there are more "bandwagon believers" than actual believers.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    ...adopt the 'beliefs' to make themselves wanted somewhere.
    Again, absolutely. Social pressures or desires can be very strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why are some people more orientated to either reject God...
    For the same reasons there are those who go with it. Whatever's popular to do, many will do. If it's popular to reject God, then people get on that bandwagon. If for, then they get on the other. When the brain isn't engaged, it's very easy to go one way or the other without any reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Is it actually possible that one can have faith as they need it to survive?
    Mentally, sometimes, yes.

    The idea that there's a bigger picture or part to play, can be comforting. Also, if you believe there is no bigger picture, then yer just a collection of chemicals wandering about. No point, no reason. You might as well just kill yerself, because it makes absolutely no difference at all. As mere flesh, nothing means anything. Relationships, love, enjoyment, beauty, creativity, it's all a load of wasted time. Strip naked, go run out into the fields, climb a tree and stop thinking. Game over.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Is it to some just another post to lean on for weak people?
    Can be. A lot of people (who believe) seem to think that God will protect them from everything, so they throw up their hands a lot and say they put their fate in God's hands. Personally, even if I believe in God, I think that's a load of crap. You can't just ride on God's coattails. It says "God helps those who help themselves." That means you have to at least try.

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Does this weakness actually lead to permanent belief in God?
    It can, I guess. Part of that is the root of fanaticism. If you do something long enough, eventually it becomes ingrained. I think there's a lot of folks, like nuns and monks, who are that way. They've kinda been driven into the whole belief routine, and they've done it so long under such pressure that they are now brainwashed, in essence, to believe it fully. I'm not saying all of them are like that, obviously, but you get the point (I hope).

    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why is there a need for faith with some people?
    Kinda goes with what I said up above about chemicals, but some people think that even if they don't believe, they should. I know people who grew up in religious homes, to religious families who have deep religious traditions. They don't necissarily believe themselves, but they feel they should, so they work themselves towards belief. Kinda like dealing with that aunt you don't like, but feel obliged to talk to once a year.
    Wolf
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  8. #7  
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    Well, it seems svwillmer is back to spouting religious bullshit everyone debunks. Pity I've nothing to say, svwillmer produces so little substance that you all debunk it before I even arrive! :?
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  9. #8  
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    I debunked?

    The only thing I tried to do was state my opinion without insulting my intelligence. I think I did that...and I also think I'm alone in that.

    Go me! :-D
    Wolf
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  10. #9  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Faith is a crutch for those that are weak of mind, some people need the reassurance of a comfort blanket, where others face life without
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  11. #10  
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    Well having religion to me lets me put a lot of weight on God and lets me run my life far more efficeintly than others. Belief has its good points .

    Wolf, I found your post the most intelligent response to the questions I asked and I am actually a little more clearer on things that many make vague-thank you .

    PS Jeremy someone has to do it, you'd have nothing to do or call otherwise :-D.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Well having religion to me lets me put a lot of weight on God and lets me run my life far more efficeintly than others. Belief has its good points .
    .
    I'm not trying to insult you - but you're basically agreeing with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Faith is a crutch for those that are weak of mind, some people need the reassurance of a comfort blanket, where others face life without
    You're both saying that some people have faith because it gives comfort. He's just putting it a little more bluntly than you. But however easy and convenient it might be for you it doesn't in any way shape or form make any of what you believe more likely to be true.
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    I think the biggest problem with religion, is not the fact theists have a belief in god, but the arrogance to assume they know what a god would actually want of them, eg knowing gods will.

    Even if a god appeared before us all to prove his/her existence that would still leave the religious text in the exact same irrational state that they are in at present
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I think the biggest problem with religion, is not the fact theists have a belief in god, but the arrogance to assume they know what a god would actually want of them, eg knowing gods will.

    Even if a god appeared before us all to prove his/her existence that would still leave the religious text in the exact same irrational state that they are in at present
    Well there will always be someone who rewrites a book. It actually says int The Bible somewhere that those who rewrite the text of God shall suffer the plaugues of Egypt .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Really? Do you know translations of the bible, inaccurate as they are, REWORD things to make them grammatically accurate?

    Oops, they rewrote it in some areas too. PLAGUES!
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I think the biggest problem with religion, is not the fact theists have a belief in god, but the arrogance to assume they know what a god would actually want of them, eg knowing gods will.

    Even if a god appeared before us all to prove his/her existence that would still leave the religious text in the exact same irrational state that they are in at present
    Well there will always be someone who rewrites a book. It actually says int The Bible somewhere that those who rewrite the text of God shall suffer the plaugues of Egypt .
    Yeah, but you weak link is the book, the book is the only proof of its own truth

    "this book is the word of god, because the book says so"
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    Sv, the bible, like all religious texts, has been salted a thousand times over. The only thing saltier than the bible is lot's wife. The same way chinese monks edited the pali canon to suit themselves, so the church did to the bible.
    "First we build the tools, then they build us" - Marshall McLuhan.
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    I can feel Christ wherever I go. Thats why I believe :-D
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I can feel Christ wherever I go. Thats why I believe :-D
    As a believer, you believe you feel christ, thats just your perception based on your beliefs and no proof in itself :-D
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I can feel Christ wherever I go. Thats why I believe :-D
    i just think its a shame that man would rather believe in messiahs, than believe in humanity.
    "First we build the tools, then they build us" - Marshall McLuhan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I can feel Christ wherever I go. Thats why I believe :-D
    i just think its a shame that man would rather believe in messiahs, than believe in humanity.
    Exactly, i love the whole miracles thing, Jesus cured a blind man, so why couldn't god remove blindness from all man? which would be simple to an all powerful being, not exactly something worth following, treat us like shit, and we will lap up any small amounts of kindness dished out with all the crap

    I suppose some men are born free where others spend their lives on their knees in fear, very similar to the whole master/slave situation, where slaves praise their masters for all the good(and blindly accepting the bad), because that master could have been so much worse with its punishment

    It reminds me of these submissives you hear of who thank the dominatrix for treading on their balls in stillettos

    I dont get either scenario
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I can feel Christ wherever I go. Thats why I believe :-D
    i just think its a shame that man would rather believe in messiahs, than believe in humanity.
    I believe in them too, believe that they can make a world perfect without God's help.
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    Damn, you guys take things WAY too literally.

    And if yer basing yer judgment of faith on religious practices/texts, it's no wonder yer opinion of "faith" is so low. We all (well, at least those who aren't zombies) can see that there's a lot of crap and problems with religious texts and practices. Considering their source, it's only obvious.

    As for a crutch, maybe some do, but I don't. Not in my worldly life, anyways. As I've said already, I think it's up to the person, not God, to live life...and that means dealing with the problems, too. My car broke down Saturday. I had to have it towed and fix it today. Do you really think I expected Jesus to show up in a flatbed? Now THAT is retarded.

    As for the value of faith...well....like I said, without -something- everything is meaningless. There's no point to living at all. So maybe God isn't the right "something" but if there's nothing then you might as well just give up. Yer fooling yerself that you're anything more than a collection of chemicals with fake wants, ideas, desires, hopes, fake life, everything. It's meaningless. Yer just slime on a rock living in a naturally-induced delusion that has no more meaning than to process vegetables and meat into compost so it can cycle round again.

    :?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    .

    So maybe God isn't the right "something" but if there's nothing then you might as well just give up......... Yer fooling yerself that you're anything more than a collection of chemicals with fake wants, ideas, desires, hopes, fake life, everything.
    Truth is stranger than fiction. Yer fooling yerself with faith, aren't ya?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Truth is stranger than fiction.
    That's awfully convenient to say, isn't it? Of course, it doesn't mean a thing, you know. Your context of "truth" doesn't match mine, clearly, so why the heck did you say it? Trying to sound witty or something? :?

    Try the flip-side of the coin, there, buddy. You think your "reality" is strange? Your reality is cake. That so-called reality is plain matter with no meaning, no point, just goop glopping around existing. There's nothing strange about that. Curious, maybe, but if that's all you leave, that's all you get.

    When you try to break down the universe (and everything in it) to the pure mechanics of equations and chemistry, you might find it's pretty damn boring.

    Why even have it at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Yer fooling yerself with faith, aren't ya?
    No.

    Got any proof that I am?

    Got any proof that you aren't fooling yerself without faith?

    You act so righteous and assured, yet you have no more ability to say there is or isn't anything, than I or anyone else.

    -

    So far, it seems I'm the only one who isn't partaking in any kind of absolute. (You all might have noticed I've never said there IS or ISN'T a God yet, have I? Wonder why that is... :? )

    I've got the "theists" on one side telling me I'm a dolt not to believe in something, and the "atheists" on the other side telling me I'm a dolt if I do.

    You all need to get yer heads out of yer exteriors. Yer all so caught up in believing that yer right, that the rhetoric has come down to "I'm right, everyone else is an idiot," and that's neither science nor intelligence.

    I'll continue contemplating "truth" until someone or some-thing gives me a legitimate reason to contemplate a different "truth." I'd hate to state something as truth without being able to stand on it. I'd sound like an idiot.
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    Wolf,

    To me, your stance is the most rational.

    I just like some irrationality in my life. :wink:
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    I just like some irrationality in my life. :wink:
    LOL. Yeah. You have to have a mix of both to keep sanity.

    I don't think a lot of things in this world make (or will ever make) total sense. I just like weeding out what doesn't clearly make sense. If I'm trying to describe an rutabaga, and someone describes a cinder block, I can probably dismiss that description.

    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    To me, your stance is the most rational.
    Wait...did you just say my stance was "most rational"? I thot I was the one being irrational because I wasn't a die-hard atheist? LOL

    Don't tell anyone...they won't believe it!
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    wolf read "god is not great" by hitchens, even though its obviously biased towards atheism, its got some compelling arguments :-D
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    i just think its a shame that man would rather believe in messiahs, than believe in humanity.
    Who exactly determines a messiah anyways? Popular vote?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Truth is stranger than fiction.
    That's awfully convenient to say, isn't it? Of course, it doesn't mean a thing, you know. Your context of "truth" doesn't match mine, clearly, so why the heck did you say it? Trying to sound witty or something?
    Wolfie, why give any opinion at all. Maybe we should both shut up.

    I really don't care about any reality you have in mind. Dream away, conject, postulate, hypothesize, theorize, whatever. I actually find you kind of dull, really. You've garnered a little stable of sycophants, not that they're impressionable or anything.

    You've assumed a lot of things, I even think you believe I am an atheist. Sorry but I've never come right out and said I was. Do you really think atheists can't put a different spin on reality?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Who exactly determines a messiah anyways? Popular vote?
    History, I think. [ponders that] Hmm...It's a good question. I'm not sure how many figures in history that have been labeled as "messiahs" were actually called messiah at the time. And if they were, how many were using the word "messiah" with the same meaning as it has to folks today?

    Avoiding any lame references to "The Life of Brian," (grins) it's probably a bit of a trick to get a population to believe you are a messiah. I'm not saying it's not possible for someone to be a good joker and fool people (especially in those times) that they were a messiah...but when you consider that there's a large amount of rhetoric that comes with that responsibility, it's not as easy as waving the hands and pulling off a few tricks.

    Think about it. Imagine yer just a dude in ancient times, with no knowledge of science or "modern" technology, and some dude came into yer town and claimed to be the messiah. What would he have to do to get people to believe him, rather than think he was another nut. (They had loons back then, too.)

    Also remember that, back then, coming into a town and shouting out "I'm the son of God!" would get you into some serious trouble. You need more than good looks and a loud voice to make it as the messiah in that case.

    -

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I actually find you kind of dull, really.
    Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    You've garnered a little stable of sycophants, not that they're impressionable or anything.
    I didn't ask for them (if there truly are any). Nor do they really have a bearing on what I say or do.

    But if these so-insulted "sycophants" exist, I suppose I would label them as "people who partially or fully agree with me on one or more levels."

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    You've assumed a lot of things,
    Haven't you, also? :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I even think you believe I am an atheist.
    I'll give you kudos for devil's advocate, but you have made a pretty clear case as an atheist perspective, haven't you?

    Faith belongs on the trash heap with other failed human endeavors. A mental disease, a colossal mistake, a glaring human weakness, the epitome of wasted effort all combining to keep us from totally embracing the universe of which we are all a part of.
    I think I loosely defined "faith" as simply a belief in something, as opposed to nothing. If I haven't made that clear in this thread, I apologize. All these religious run-on threads tend to get blurred together, so I can't ever remember what's been said, taken for granted, or re-said.

    In either event, if you do away with faith, are you not doing away with the same elements as those who are atheists? If there is no faith, then there is nothing of faith, therefore no god/deity/etc, which is atheism (the belief that there is no god/deity/etc).

    It could be argued that there can be some meaning to existence, without a God like entity, and therefore still be atheist yet having faith. But that's only true if you define faith as a belief beyond the meaninglessness of chemical glop. In other words, using "faith" to describe everything beyond the particulate of the physical, as a way of expressing that there is some sort of meaning to it all.

    But you've trashed the idea of faith, so that can't be where yer going with this. :?

    I'm not sure I'd call you boring, but maybe confused. I haven't honestly put much time at all in considering you, in order to make an assessment of yer disposition....so I'm not sure how to regard your position on anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Do you really think atheists can't put a different spin on reality?
    I'd be interested to hear of a "spin" on things that doesn't fall within the broad definition of a faith.

    It's kind of a paradox, isn't it?

    If you do believe in something beyond the physical, yer in the same boat.

    I'd have to spend some more time thinking about if there is a middle ground to all this. Right now I kinda think that trying to take the middle ground would be something like living without ever exhaling.

    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
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