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Thread: Is Atheism another rebellious group?

  1. #1 Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    It is a well known fact that during adolescence we all look for some group to join to express our beliefs (or non belief in this case). Usually it is seen that groups that are formed are usually against some kind of perceived opression. Goths for instance feel opressed by the need to be happy all the time and so oppose that (you could call it anti-conformism), punks, mods emos, the lot. There are always groups people join, now there is nothing wrong with that as long as they stay peaceful. But I am becoming increasingly cautious about the number of atheists growing in the world. Many are infact fanatical about their non belief to what some religious folk are fanatical about their belief. Where some young folk are young (mainly to oppose the 'opression' of religion), and can be easily mislead.

    For instance I've notice quite a few of my friends and collegaues to be wonderful people, they disagree from time to time as all friends do but when it comes to religion and that discussion begins; all hell breaks loose. They become enraged for some reason just that I may point out a number of reasons why I beleive (the usual stuff), but this makes them worse. I try to compromise but that only makes them more angry. I've said sorry to numerous friends of mine that have fallen out with me just because I believe in something that cannot be seen. I apologise frequently but I never have had a response from them. Now I hardly ever talk about my belief or defend it if it comes up anymore as I fear that my friends will shun me as others have. Why would they do this? Why can I not have the freedom to believe in something, the same as they have the freedom to not believe in something?

    I believe like all rebellious groups it serves its purpose. But if not controlled like everything else in the world, it could get out of hand and they become obsessed with the idea that religion must be destroyed and actually begin going about destroying it-then in that sense how are they different from some religions? Not that any religion should go about killing others anyway.


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  3. #2 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    But I am becoming increasingly cautious about the number of atheists growing in the world.
    everytime a child is born thats a new atheist, atheism is the natural way, we most certainly dont join a religion we are indoctrinated, brainwashed into one, this is of course a form of child abuse.
    to revert back to the natural way take a lot of courage and strength, it can sometimes take years to remove the ties that bind us to religion, brainwashing is an evil deed and can leave you physically scarred, but luckily reason can cure these ills.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Many are infact fanatical about their non belief to what some religious folk are fanatical about their belief. Where some young folk are young (mainly to oppose the 'opression' of religion), and can be easily mislead.
    being abused lied too("mislead" makes it sound almost nice, but being brainwashed isn't) by religion, on anything for that matter can leave a horrible taste in you mouth and yes some atheist can be over zealous, whilst debating. but they hold no malice to other debaters just religion.


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  4. #3 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    but they hold no malice to other debaters just religion.
    Oh really?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  5. #4 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    but they hold no malice to other debaters just religion.
    Oh really?
    really.
    as long as you don't try and push your religious beliefs onto someone else (AKA jehovas witnesses), or pray for an atheist, you'll be fine.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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  6. #5 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    but they hold no malice to other debaters just religion.
    Oh really?
    really.
    as long as you don't try and push your religious beliefs onto someone else (AKA jehovas witnesses), or pray for an atheist, you'll be fine.
    Are you the spokesperson for all atheists?

    Well I'm the spokesperson for all theists. We don't hold malice to other debaters, just their view.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  7. #6 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    but they hold no malice to other debaters just religion.
    Oh really?
    really.
    as long as you don't try and push your religious beliefs onto someone else (AKA jehovas witnesses), or pray for an atheist, you'll be fine.
    I don't so why do I get forced to 'not beleive'?
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  8. #7 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    lets take it from another angle. as long as theists did not fucking take evolution vs creation into court, and demanded that their fairy tales be taught in school, as if it was real, both lived happily side by side.
    now all theists seems to be doing is undermining well-grounded scientific theories that have been proven to be accurate, if a bit underdeveloped.
    sooner or later, ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
    maybe being deported to some fundamentalist third world shithole will change your mind about how "wonderful" god is.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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  9. #8 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    lets take it from another angle. as long as theists did not fucking take evolution vs creation into court, and demanded that their fairy tales be taught in school, as if it was real, both lived happily side by side.
    now all theists seems to be doing is undermining well-grounded scientific theories that have been proven to be accurate, if a bit underdeveloped.
    sooner or later, ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
    maybe being deported to some fundamentalist third world shithole will change your mind about how "wonderful" god is.
    See? You see the anger? Why?
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  10. #9 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    lets take it from another angle. as long as theists did not fucking take evolution vs creation into court, and demanded that their fairy tales be taught in school, as if it was real, both lived happily side by side.
    You don't know this. It's a bit like saying the American revolution wouldn't have occurred if they had gotten their representation. But even if what you said were true, that doesn't prove that atheists "hold no malice to other debaters just religion."

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    now all theists seems to be doing is undermining well-grounded scientific theories that have been proven to be accurate, if a bit underdeveloped.
    sooner or later, ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
    All theists?

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    maybe being deported to some fundamentalist third world shithole will change your mind about how "wonderful" god is.
    I'm aware of all the horrible things in the world. But I don't see where God's being evil is relevant to what we're discussing.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  11. #10 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    lets take it from another angle. as long as theists did not fucking take evolution vs creation into court, and demanded that their fairy tales be taught in school, as if it was real, both lived happily side by side.
    now all theists seems to be doing is undermining well-grounded scientific theories that have been proven to be accurate, if a bit underdeveloped.
    sooner or later, ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
    maybe being deported to some fundamentalist third world shithole will change your mind about how "wonderful" god is.
    See? You see the anger? Why?
    For the most part the anger is understandable.

    See here: http://gretachristina.typepad.com/gr...ts-and-an.html
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  12. #11  
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    Don't get me wrong, I won't rule out the possibility of atheism going to far, but I find it highly unlikely. We might show signs of frustration trying to reason the unreasonable, but we don't result to violence. Atheism is not an ideology, it's impossible to categorize people based on one common thing - that they don't believe in God - and expect them to all think alike. Our wish (some of us, not all) is to get rid of stupidity, dogma, ignorance, intolerance and idiocy by reason, not violence. It never fails to amaze me how easily provoked some theists might get when they see a video (or article, blog etc) attacking them intellectually, or directly (with [valid] accusations). Why should our encouragement for reason, free thinking and tolerance (not overtolerance) be feared? The only weapons we use is questions, what harm does questions do? All it provokes is a response.
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  13. #12 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    For instance I've notice quite a few of my friends and collegaues to be wonderful people, they disagree from time to time as all friends do but when it comes to religion and that discussion begins; all hell breaks loose. They become enraged for some reason just that I may point out a number of reasons why I beleive (the usual stuff), but this makes them worse. I try to compromise but that only makes them more angry. I've said sorry to numerous friends of mine that have fallen out with me just because I believe in something that cannot be seen. I apologise frequently but I never have had a response from them. Now I hardly ever talk about my belief or defend it if it comes up anymore as I fear that my friends will shun me as others have. Why would they do this? Why can I not have the freedom to believe in something, the same as they have the freedom to not believe in something?
    From what I see, atheists do not wish to take away your freedom to believe in something. I think it is quite obvious from where I sit that they only want for you to listen to logic and reasoning, and the hope is some day you will regain those wonderful human attributes and make the decision to revert to your natural state all by yourself.

    Your atheist friends may shun you because they can no longer reason with you or, and I'll put this bluntly, they think you are too far gone. They may think you have lost your natural ability to reason. I don't think they group together and discuss atheism 24/7. Its some kind of collective understanding atheists have. They don't need a church, a leader, a doctrine or a bible to be an atheist. I find that it usually takes a believer's actions to trigger an atheist response. Considering some of the things people do in the name of religion you can't fault rational thinking people if they argue against it.

    Your friends are not forcing you to revert. They may begrudgingly accept your right to choose but they cannot accept that you have rejected all attempts at reasoning. They're still your friends, don't expect an apology though. I can't see why a logical and reasoning person should apologize for it. I think you are on the verge of or already have passed the point of no return. If there was a list of the most irrational things people do then atheists would put believing in god at or near the top.

    Isn't this terrible? Its senseless. Do endless arguments over religion do anybody any good? If we get one person to convert or revert then its all worth it? I suppose thats it.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Don't get me wrong, I won't rule out the possibility of atheism going to far, but I find it highly unlikely. We might show signs of frustration trying to reason the unreasonable, but we don't result to violence. Atheism is not an ideology, it's impossible to categorize people based on one common thing - that they don't believe in God - and expect them to all think alike. Our wish (some of us, not all) is to get rid of stupidity, dogma, ignorance, intolerance and idiocy by reason, not violence. It never fails to amaze me how easily provoked some theists might get when they see a video (or article, blog etc) attacking them intellectually, or directly (with [valid] accusations). Why should our encouragement for reason, free thinking and tolerance (not overtolerance) be feared? The only weapons we use is questions, what harm does questions do? All it provokes is a response.
    Theists such as myself don't fear intellectual discussion. What we do get riled up about is name-calling and disrespect. Such statements as "you're irrational and deluded", "you won't give up childish beliefs", "that's just like a theist, eluding rationality", etc. don't bode well for good, clean, open discussions. Some atheists are also in the habit of resorting to "well, your God is imaginary" or "you can't prove God exists" when such statements are Red Herrings (i.e. unnecessary and irrelevant). Atheists elude good discussion as well. You just have to open your eyes and see.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Theists such as myself don't fear intellectual discussion. What we do get riled up about is name-calling and disrespect. Such statements as "you're irrational and deluded", "you won't give up childish beliefs", "that's just like a theist, eluding rationality", etc. don't bode well for good, clean, open discussions. Some atheists are also in the habit of resorting to "well, your God is imaginary" or "you can't prove God exists" when such statements are Red Herrings (i.e. unnecessary and irrelevant). Atheists elude good discussion as well. You just have to open your eyes and see.
    yes it does sound as if it's a personal attack some times, but if you take a step back and look at why they had responded in that way.
    When your in a debate and the person your debating is being not reasonable, or reasoning well, you have no option but to speak the truth. would you prefer us to lie to you, that makes for a very weak debate.
    a lot of atheist's, and even other religions, will call your beliefs irrational, delusional, etc... but when you look at literally they are using the right terminology.
    it's a fault really of your own, if you dont see that.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Theists such as myself don't fear intellectual discussion. What we do get riled up about is name-calling and disrespect. Such statements as "you're irrational and deluded", "you won't give up childish beliefs", "that's just like a theist, eluding rationality", etc. don't bode well for good, clean, open discussions. Some atheists are also in the habit of resorting to "well, your God is imaginary" or "you can't prove God exists" when such statements are Red Herrings (i.e. unnecessary and irrelevant). Atheists elude good discussion as well. You just have to open your eyes and see.
    yes it does sound as if it's a personal attack some times,
    Sound like? It doesn't "sound as if" it's a personal attack. It is a personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    but if you take a step back and look at why they had responded in that way.
    I do so all the time. It's usually unprovoked, or simply used to evade a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    When your in a debate and the person your debating is being not reasonable, or reasoning well, you have no option but to speak the truth.
    Is "speak the truth" a euphemism for "throw ad hominem attacks and shout 'my view is right!'" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    would you prefer us to lie to you, that makes for a very weak debate.
    I already know your view. I don't care for any restatement of it. What I do care for is a civilised debate free of ad hominems and red herrings.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    a lot of atheist's, and even other religions, will call your beliefs irrational, delusional, etc... but when you look at literally they are using the right terminology.
    No, they are not. Even if they were, they're using it to attack the person personally, not because of technical correctness.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    it's a fault really of your own, if you dont see that.
    So a personal attack is a fault of my own. I see. Hopefully you won't ever become a cop, because if an atheist were to somehow commit a hate crime against a theist, you'll say "well, he must've deserved it".

    Sounds something like saying a rape victim was "asking for it".
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    yes it does sound as if it's a personal attack some times, but if you take a step back and look at why they had responded in that way.
    I have to agree with geezer. I don't think its anger you're hearing from atheists, rather it's frustration. I won't discount that in some cases there is anger directed at an individual but for the most part, if there is any anger then I have to think it is directed towards the human propensity to accept unsubstantiated fact as gospel. Atheists may see believing in a god(s) as a sign that you have been broken, succumbing to some kind of unnatural intrusion of your mental ability, directly affecting the things that differentiate us from other beasts, that being imagination, reason and logic. I don't think atheists see belief in a god as a weakness because all of us are susceptible to it at one time or another. Above all I think most atheists are sympathetic and in many cases empathetic, 'sorry about your luck and I feel for ya' attitude.

    I wonder how much this information highway is responsible for the atheist word, if there is one, being broadcast to the world. I have to believe it couldn't have come at a better time.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    yes it does sound as if it's a personal attack some times, but if you take a step back and look at why they had responded in that way.
    I have to agree with geezer. I don't think its anger you're hearing from atheists, rather it's frustration. I won't discount that in some cases there is anger directed at an individual but for the most part, if there is any anger then I have to think it is directed towards the human propensity to accept unsubstantiated fact as gospel. Atheists may see believing in a god(s) as a sign that you have been broken, succumbing to some kind of unnatural intrusion of your mental ability, directly affecting the things that differentiate us from other beasts, that being imagination, reason and logic. I don't think atheists see belief in a god as a weakness because all of us are susceptible to it at one time or another. Above all I think most atheists are sympathetic and in many cases empathetic, 'sorry about your luck and I feel for ya' attitude.

    I wonder how much this information highway is responsible for the atheist word, if there is one, being broadcast to the world. I have to believe it couldn't have come at a better time.
    I don't agree, theists have to take a step back and look at why atheists are giving personal attacks, yet atheists are free to chuck these around and at the same time when a theist may do so, all of a sudden the balls on the other court and theists are wrong bey throwing attacks and then get called all the names under the sun for being that way, atheists then find a way of avoiding the fact that they are attacking themselves and use red herrings and other jargon to avoid acknowledging the are doing so.

    It's like this 'Atheists are free to throw accusations around, but they cannot take them themselves', so it begs the question, if a theist has to step back and look at why an atheist is throwing around these accusations, why can't atheists step back and look at why theists may be throwing accusations?

    Why do atheists get away with it? They are the best on the Earth and the most logical people, of course they are. If you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic.
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  19. #18  
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    How can you insult an atheist? By telling them they're wrong? You're not getting it. Atheists are doing nothing different with respect to God belief then from the day they were born. You on the other hand have opted for something else that atheists feel is intrusive. Because you are fanatical about it then you will take criticism as an insult. No disrespect but you were not born Christian or whatever. I'm not trying to be insulting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    How can you insult an atheist? By telling them they're wrong? You're not getting it.
    Getting what? Thier opinion is their opinion. The only thing that is right and wrong is arguing that opinion in a way that others may seem offensive. There is a difference between insult and challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Atheists are doing nothing different with respect to God belief then from the day they were born. You on the other hand have opted for something else that atheists feel is intrusive. Because you are fanatical about it then you will take criticism as an insult.
    I'm not fanatical and don't take critism as an insult, where did you assert that from? What about atheists fanaticism on atheism? If I say God exists and then come up with something, in effect critiscing their point of view, then they go off on one (of course I am reffering to evidence on this forum for that claim-it may not accuratley reflect the truth).


    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    No disrespect but you were not born Christian or whatever. I'm not trying to be insulting.
    I was born a Christian, I came back here knowing what body I would be in and ready to be a servant to God and His will. I believed before I re-entered the world and so did when I was born to today, if I didn't I wouldn't believe today. I know your not being insulting, just challenging. I enjoy challenges and enjoy debating as long as they stay challenges. However when insults fly around I just leave debate now. I'm glad there is someone who wishes to engage in adult discussion .
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    yes it does sound as if it's a personal attack some times, but if you take a step back and look at why they had responded in that way.
    I have to agree with geezer. I don't think its anger you're hearing from atheists, rather it's frustration. I won't discount that in some cases there is anger directed at an individual but for the most part, if there is any anger then I have to think it is directed towards the human propensity to accept unsubstantiated fact as gospel. Atheists may see believing in a god(s) as a sign that you have been broken, succumbing to some kind of unnatural intrusion of your mental ability, directly affecting the things that differentiate us from other beasts, that being imagination, reason and logic. I don't think atheists see belief in a god as a weakness because all of us are susceptible to it at one time or another. Above all I think most atheists are sympathetic and in many cases empathetic, 'sorry about your luck and I feel for ya' attitude.

    I wonder how much this information highway is responsible for the atheist word, if there is one, being broadcast to the world. I have to believe it couldn't have come at a better time.
    I don't mind the frustration and subsequent bitterness, I mind the unprovoked insults.

    I myself am getting frustrated by the insults. Should I proceed to insult you?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Atheists are arrogant people who think they're some kind of perfect humans whose world would be way better than one with theists. The perfect example is Richard Dawkins.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Because you are fanatical about it then you will take criticism as an insult.
    I don't think you have to be fanatical to get insulted by someone calling you irrational, deluded, and in some case vicious.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  24. #23 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    really.
    as long as you don't try and push your religious beliefs onto someone else (AKA jehovas witnesses), or pray for an atheist, you'll be fine.
    What is it about Jehovah's witnesses that gets people so steamed up? Would you get mad if your neighbor came knocking on your door to borrow a cup of flour or something? I have talked to JW's and had a pleasant conversation, chatting about whatever, not necessarily religion. When they are gone, I throw their tracts in the trash. What is the problem? Furthermore, by posting on this forum, are you not "pushing" your beliefs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Atheists are arrogant people who think they're some kind of perfect humans whose world would be way better than one with theists. The perfect example is Richard Dawkins.
    No, they're just people who are sick and tired of theists shoving their unsubstantiated beliefs down their throats. Sick and tired of allowing theists to have tax free institutions. Sick and tired of theists pushing their beliefs into politics. Sick and tired of theists running governments using their beliefs as their guides. In fact, it is the theists who think their worlds would be way better than one with atheists.

    Essentially, it is the theists who are the arrogant ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Atheists are arrogant people who think they're some kind of perfect humans whose world would be way better than one with theists. The perfect example is Richard Dawkins.
    No, they're just people who are sick and tired of theists shoving their unsubstantiated beliefs down their throats. Sick and tired of allowing theists to have tax free institutions. Sick and tired of theists pushing their beliefs into politics. Sick and tired of theists running governments using their beliefs as their guides. In fact, it is the theists who think their worlds would be way better than one with atheists.

    Essentially, it is the theists who are the arrogant ones.
    Said the pot to the kettle.

    Your being arrogant now aren't you?

    So what if your sick and tired, we are sick and tired of you atheists pushing your beliefs down others throats and 'how the world would be better without religion', we too are sick of that so the feeling is mutual. Remove the planck in your own eye before you remove the sawdust in ours. And we will do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Atheists are arrogant people who think they're some kind of perfect humans whose world would be way better than one with theists. The perfect example is Richard Dawkins.
    No, they're just people who are sick and tired of theists shoving their unsubstantiated beliefs down their throats. Sick and tired of allowing theists to have tax free institutions. Sick and tired of theists pushing their beliefs into politics. Sick and tired of theists running governments using their beliefs as their guides. In fact, it is the theists who think their worlds would be way better than one with atheists.
    I don't see how calling yourselves "Brights" is due to being "sick and tired". I can tell when an atheist is frustrated from when s/he is simply being an arrogant prick.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Essentially, it is the theists who are the arrogant ones.
    Many theists are arrogant. I acknowledge this. But I would say the atheists are more conspicuously arrogant.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    I don't see how calling yourselves "Brights" is due to being "sick and tired". I can tell when an atheist is frustrated from when s/he is simply being an arrogant prick.
    I don't call myself a "Bright." Theists would see atheists as 'arrogant pricks' when they attempt to ram their beliefs down our throats. Those are of course, unsubstantiated, full-of-magic-and-mystery, contradicting and hypocritical beliefs.


    Many theists are arrogant. I acknowledge this. But I would say the atheists are more conspicuously arrogant.
    Yes, you would say that.

    It is interesting to note that it is the THEISTS who make the claims of supernatural divinity. So, it's quite comical and hypocritical to suggest atheists are the arrogant ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    I don't see how calling yourselves "Brights" is due to being "sick and tired". I can tell when an atheist is frustrated from when s/he is simply being an arrogant prick.
    I don't call myself a "Bright." Theists would see atheists as 'arrogant pricks' when they attempt to ram their beliefs down our throats. Those are of course, unsubstantiated, full-of-magic-and-mystery, contradicting and hypocritical beliefs.


    Many theists are arrogant. I acknowledge this. But I would say the atheists are more conspicuously arrogant.
    Yes, you would say that.

    It is interesting to note that it is the THEISTS who make the claims of supernatural divinity. So, it's quite comical and hypocritical to suggest atheists are the arrogant ones.
    Yet atheists are arrogant in offending beliefs of people that has lasted for millenia. Atheists expect everyone to drop a beleif that goes back thousands of years because 'there is no evidence of it'. You can't expect everyone to say 'Oh yea your right, there is no God, how sill of us to think that the past couple of thousand years'. Its every atheist fantasy, but that is one that will never come true. There are more with religion in the world than those without it and like it or not as long as that stays constant nothing you do will make an differenc. Don't expect us to change our beleifs because you seem logically right. Everyone is different lets respect each other with those beliefs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    I don't see how calling yourselves "Brights" is due to being "sick and tired". I can tell when an atheist is frustrated from when s/he is simply being an arrogant prick.
    I don't call myself a "Bright." Theists would see atheists as 'arrogant pricks' when they attempt to ram their beliefs down our throats. Those are of course, unsubstantiated, full-of-magic-and-mystery, contradicting and hypocritical beliefs.
    I know, but other atheists do. Sounds really arrogant, doesn't it? And I don't try to ram my beliefs down atheists' throat. Again, most personal attacks are unprovoked.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)

    Many theists are arrogant. I acknowledge this. But I would say the atheists are more conspicuously arrogant.
    Yes, you would say that.

    It is interesting to note that it is the THEISTS who make the claims of supernatural divinity. So, it's quite comical and hypocritical to suggest atheists are the arrogant ones.
    I don't see how making claims makes one arrogant.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Don't expect us to change our beleifs because you seem logically right. Everyone is different lets respect each other with those beliefs.
    Absolutely not. Religion is a disease that needs full eradication. It has always been and will continue to be the downfall of mankind. It promotes ignorance, oppression, intellectual dishonesty, bigotry, hatred and racism. It divides all mankind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Don't expect us to change our beleifs because you seem logically right. Everyone is different lets respect each other with those beliefs.
    Absolutely not. Religion is a disease that needs full eradication. It has always been and will continue to be the downfall of mankind. It promotes ignorance, oppression, intellectual dishonesty, bigotry, hatred and racism. It divides all mankind.
    I disagree. Religion can help people. As I've said it before I'll say it again. Respect others beliefs, then you'll get on with folk better, as I'm sure that is a problem in your life.

    RE: That was inappropriate SVWillmer
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    I know, but other atheists do. Sounds really arrogant, doesn't it?
    Not at all. It is far more arrogant to call yourself a Christian or Muslim and only pay lip service to those beliefs.


    I don't see how making claims makes one arrogant.
    You just did. You said claiming to be a Bright is really arrogant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    I disagree. Religion can help people.
    Really? How does it help people, exactly? By giving them false hope? By deluding them into thinking life is merely a stepping stone to a better afterlife? By telling them lies about biology and cosmology? By creating the scenario in which the magical, invisible and undetectable somehow control the universe and our lives? Uh-huh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    I know, but other atheists do. Sounds really arrogant, doesn't it?
    Not at all. It is far more arrogant to call yourself a Christian or Muslim and only pay lip service to those beliefs.


    I don't see how making claims makes one arrogant.
    You just did. You said claiming to be a Bright is really arrogant.
    Your red herring again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Your red herring again.
    Your lack of synthesis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Your red herring again.
    Your lack of synthesis.
    Not limited to myself it seems. However you are red herring and you are persistently opposing a system of belief that you do not agree with, you are not challenging it-you are offending iy. Please as I say again, grow up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Don't expect us to change our beleifs because you seem logically right. Everyone is different lets respect each other with those beliefs.
    Absolutely not. Religion is a disease that needs full eradication. It has always been and will continue to be the downfall of mankind. It promotes ignorance, oppression, intellectual dishonesty, bigotry, hatred and racism. It divides all mankind.
    Now who's pushing their views on others?

    Arrogance: religion is the downfall of mankind, atheism isn't.
    Arrogance: religion promotes ignorance, atheism doesn't.
    Arrogance: religion promotes intellectual dishonesty, atheism doesn't.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Not limited to myself it seems. However you are red herring and you are persistently opposing a system of belief that you do not agree with, you are not challenging it-you are offending iy. Please as I say again, grow up.
    Hilarious! I'm offending a system of belief?

    Good one!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Now who's pushing their views on others?

    Arrogance: religion is the downfall of mankind, atheism isn't.
    Arrogance: religion promotes ignorance, atheism doesn't.
    Arrogance: religion promotes intellectual dishonesty, atheism doesn't.
    They are facts, not views.
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    I hope the more decent atheists are seeing Q's display of arrogance.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    I too would like to hear this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Education.
    What!? I have been educated and shown both possibilties and have chosen to believe in God. Education already exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Education.
    What!? I have been educated and shown both possibilties and have chosen to believe in God. Education already exists.
    You have most likely been indoctrinated into your religion, a form of child abuse, of course. Your choice was made for you before you were even born.

    I seriously doubt you have an education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Education.
    What!? I have been educated and shown both possibilties and have chosen to believe in God. Education already exists.
    You have most likely been indoctrinated into your religion, a form of child abuse, of course. Your choice was made for you before you were even born.

    I seriously doubt you have an education.
    If you insult me one more time I'm going to report you.

    Please stop it. I have never been abused. It is my choice, don't also insult those I love by saying that they abuse me because I chose to beleive in God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Q, how do you propose we get rid of religion?
    Education.
    What if people refuse to get "educated"?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Please stop it. I have never been abused. It is my choice, don't also insult those I love by saying that they abuse me because I chose to beleive in God.
    If your religion is your parents religion, then you have been indoctrinated, which IS a form of child abuse. You didn't have a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    What if people refuse to get "educated"?
    Why would anyone refuse education? Oh yes, because they believe in cults that promote ignorance.

    How silly of me not have figured that out.
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    How to get rid of religion?

    Ask Pol Pot, Chairman Mao and Stalin.

    Education works wonders. Look at Cambodia, China and Russia.

    Religion on the other hand...look at the US, everyone is leaving it for China and Russia (and Cambodia)
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  52. #51 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I have talked to JW's and had a pleasant conversation, chatting about whatever, not necessarily religion. When they are gone, I throw their tracts in the trash.
    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    What if people refuse to get "educated"?
    Why would anyone refuse education? Oh yes, because they believe in cults that promote ignorance.

    How silly of me not have figured that out.
    Stop dodging and answer the question.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    How to get rid of religion?

    Ask Pol Pot, Chairman Mao and Stalin.

    Education works wonders. Look at Cambodia, China and Russia.

    Religion on the other hand...look at the US, everyone is leaving it for China and Russia (and Cambodia)
    Some have yet to figure out after repeatedly having been explained why the above nonsense is fallacious.

    Yet, they continue to bleat their insignificant rants in favor of supporting their own cults.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Yet atheists are arrogant in offending beliefs of people that has lasted for millenia. Atheists expect everyone to drop a beleif that goes back thousands of years because 'there is no evidence of it'. You can't expect everyone to say 'Oh yea your right, there is no God, how sill of us to think that the past couple of thousand years'.
    The classic fallacy of the appeal to antiquity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Stop dodging and answer the question.
    I did answer the question. Replace indoctrination with education. It will take some generations to employ, but it can be accomplished.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Yet atheists are arrogant in offending beliefs of people that has lasted for millenia. Atheists expect everyone to drop a beleif that goes back thousands of years because 'there is no evidence of it'. You can't expect everyone to say 'Oh yea your right, there is no God, how sill of us to think that the past couple of thousand years'.
    The classic fallacy of the appeal to antiquity.
    What

    Oh I get it. Well heres news, there was a past and without that past there would be no present so respect it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Stop dodging and answer the question.
    I did answer the question. Replace indoctrination with education. It will take some generations to employ, but it can be accomplished.
    But they still will have the option of believing or not. Thats the point, you can't get rid of religion and thats why I say respect it because your'e going to have live with it for the rest of your life, the least we can do is get along with each other. Religious folk in general haev to be more respectful and understanding which I've tried to be. Ahteists are the ones doing the opposite; its for your own benefit to respect our beliefs as we respect yours (or at least will when you respect ours- (as the case with you and I you were the one to show disrespect)).
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    Giving something validity just because it has persisted for a period of time. It's a logical fallacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Giving something validity just because it has persisted for a period of time. It's a logical fallacy.
    Like science you mean?
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    No. I mean like religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    No. I mean like religion.
    Like science, yes I know what you mean.
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    No. I mean like religion. Science does not exist ONLY because it has been around for a long time. It exists because it continues to reveal to us how the world around us works. Your previous statement was a classic example of the fallacy of appeal to antiquity. That JUST BECAUSE religion has been around for a long time, that therefore it must be right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    No. I mean like religion. Science does not exist ONLY because it has been around for a long time. It exists because it continues to reveal to us how the world around us works. Your previous statement was a classic example of the fallacy of appeal to antiquity. That JUST BECAUSE religion has been around for a long time, that therefore it must be right.
    Unlike all other "evolutionary behaviour" which only persists due to its intrinsic value for survival.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Stop dodging and answer the question.
    I did answer the question. Replace indoctrination with education. It will take some generations to employ, but it can be accomplished.
    You didn't. You're playing games.

    The question was "what if people refuse to be 'educated'?", and you responded that no one would refuse to be educated. This is clearly not an answer to my question.

    Now, what if people refuse to be "educated"?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    How to get rid of religion?

    Ask Pol Pot, Chairman Mao and Stalin.

    Education works wonders. Look at Cambodia, China and Russia.

    Religion on the other hand...look at the US, everyone is leaving it for China and Russia (and Cambodia)
    Some have yet to figure out after repeatedly having been explained why the above nonsense is fallacious.

    Yet, they continue to bleat their insignificant rants in favor of supporting their own cults.
    I'd say Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. had a nice idea.

    Let's kill the irrational, vicious bastards that are only holding our species back and refusing to be educated. Let's create an atheist Utopia, where there's no killing, no meanness, no cruelty, no irrational beliefs in supernatural nonsense, and best of all no religious people nagging us. It'll be wonderful. We just have to kill these irrational, evil child abusers. The end goal will be worth it.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Giving something validity just because it has persisted for a period of time. It's a logical fallacy.
    I don't think that's what svmiller was doing. He was rightly pointing out that you can't simply "educate" religion out of society.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  68. #67  
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    Oh... my... God...

    What happened here? :?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Oh... my... God...

    What happened here? :?
    I started arguing
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Now, what if people refuse to be "educated"?
    That's a loaded question. Are you asking whether or not people would rather remain ignorant and are in favor of delusion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Now, what if people refuse to be "educated"?
    That's a loaded question. Are you asking whether or not people would rather remain ignorant and are in favor of delusion?
    Well atheists seem ignorant when it comes to the supernatural.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    ... ... ... ...

    I... wrote so much... and I used internett explorer... and unfortunately... I pushed the back button...

    I pressed the forward buttom... and... it was gone...

    Everything... gone...

    I HATE IE SO MUCH I COULD SERIOUSLY WALK MY WAY OVER TO MICROSOFT AND... well...

    The browser I useally use doesn't "forget" what I write when I press the back button... why... why...

    *Cries*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    ... ... ... ...

    I... wrote so much... and I used internett explorer... and unfortunately... I pushed the back button...

    I pressed the forward buttom... and... it was gone...

    Everything... gone...

    I HATE IE SO MUCH I COULD SERIOUSLY WALK MY WAY OVER TO MICROSOFT AND... well...

    The browser I useally use doesn't "forget" what I write when I press the back button... why... why...

    *Cries*
    That happened to me once. Its God way of making you not say something you might regret .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  74. #73  
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    I was going to say atheism can be irrational.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    I was going to say atheism can be irrational.
    HAHAHAhha! XDD What can I say?!
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  76. #75 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I have talked to JW's and had a pleasant conversation, chatting about whatever, not necessarily religion. When they are gone, I throw their tracts in the trash.
    Why?
    Why not? They are my neighbors. They came to visit with the best of intentions to save my mortal soul, so they thought. Why shouldn't I talk to them?
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    I don't mind the frustration and subsequent bitterness, I mind the unprovoked insults.

    I myself am getting frustrated by the insults. Should I proceed to insult you?
    Go ahead and try, call it arrogance but you can't insult me. However, religious people do a good job of insulting themselves.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Atheism can be irrational because the label "atheism" in itself is fallacious and only describes people who do not believe in any deities. I like to call myself a metaphysical naturalist and think that's a more correct term. Atheism itself isn't an ideology, but someone who is just an atheist can still have belief in an ideology. Making a label for one small common thing and saying everyone with this common thing are alike is wrong.

    Atheists who are against dogma, ignorance, intolerance, overtolerance, stupidity etc with the use of intellectual discourse, reason, logic and questions pose no threat to society. Such atheism encourage people to think twice before believing in anything, but do not encourage violence. Things like this should be applauded.

    I can agree that atheism sometimes show intellectual arrogance and some form of superiority over theists and I also agree that this is a bad thing. We might get frustrated when not getting through to people, but that only reflects passion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    I don't mind the frustration and subsequent bitterness, I mind the unprovoked insults.

    I myself am getting frustrated by the insults. Should I proceed to insult you?
    Go ahead and try, call it arrogance but you can't insult me. However, religious people do a good job of insulting themselves.
    In what way is that presume established?
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  80. #79 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I have talked to JW's and had a pleasant conversation, chatting about whatever, not necessarily religion. When they are gone, I throw their tracts in the trash.
    Why?
    Why not? They are my neighbors. They came to visit with the best of intentions to save my mortal soul, so they thought. Why shouldn't I talk to them?
    I mean why did you throw out their tracts?
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  81. #80 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I mean why did you throw out their tracts?
    Get serious.
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  82. #81 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I mean why did you throw out their tracts?
    Get serious.
    Why so evasive? Are you anti-Jehova's Witness or something?
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  83. #82 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I mean why did you throw out their tracts?
    Get serious.
    Why so evasive? Are you anti-Jehova's Witness or something?
    Do you have a point? I do not accept their beliefs. That doesn't mean I have to be rude or get angry at them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Now, what if people refuse to be "educated"?
    That's a loaded question. Are you asking whether or not people would rather remain ignorant and are in favor of delusion?
    I don't see how it's a loaded question. And it's really straightforward, so I don't see where you're confused.

    Let me try to clarify some more: You want to eradicate religion. You say education is the way to do it. The question is: what if people choose to continue to be ignorant, and refuse education?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    I don't mind the frustration and subsequent bitterness, I mind the unprovoked insults.

    I myself am getting frustrated by the insults. Should I proceed to insult you?
    Go ahead and try, call it arrogance but you can't insult me. However, religious people do a good job of insulting themselves.
    What do you mean? I can't insult you for your atheism?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  86. #85 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I mean why did you throw out their tracts?
    Get serious.
    Why so evasive? Are you anti-Jehova's Witness or something?
    Do you have a point? I do not accept their beliefs. That doesn't mean I have to be rude or get angry at them.
    Harold, it's admirable of you that you are gracious with them. And I was not for a moment suggesting that you SHOULD be rude or get angry with them. My point was that if you do not accept their beliefs, then why not? What makes YOUR religion any more credible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Well atheists seem ignorant when it comes to the supernatural.
    Of course they are, the supernatural exists in your imagination, of which everyone is ignorant.

    Finding any two exact matches for the description of the supernatural amongst theists is like finding two exact matching fingerprints. It ain't gonna happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Let me try to clarify some more: You want to eradicate religion. You say education is the way to do it. The question is: what if people choose to continue to be ignorant, and refuse education?
    You need to clarify your question. Under what conditions would anyone refuse education?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

    Let me try to clarify some more: You want to eradicate religion. You say education is the way to do it. The question is: what if people choose to continue to be ignorant, and refuse education?
    You need to clarify your question. Under what conditions would anyone refuse education?
    You're still dodging. I take that to mean you can't answer the question.

    It doesn't matter under what conditions they refuse education. Just that they refuse it. Assuming they refuse education, what would be your method of eradicating religion?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Well atheists seem ignorant when it comes to the supernatural.
    Of course they are, the supernatural exists in your imagination, of which everyone is ignorant.

    Finding any two exact matches for the description of the supernatural amongst theists is like finding two exact matching fingerprints. It ain't gonna happen.
    How about the same person? 2 of the same person in one time frame, then you'd find two exactly matching fingerprints. Plausible or not it still is possible. There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    lol yes the invisible and the non existent, are alike too.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    lol yes the invisible and the non existent, are alike too.
    So how can you tell the two? How can you tell which one is real?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    lol yes the invisible and the non existent, are alike too.
    So how can you tell the two? How can you tell which one is real?
    lol, you are funny stephen.

    this may help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invisible
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nonexistent
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    You're still dodging. I take that to mean you can't answer the question.

    It doesn't matter under what conditions they refuse education. Just that they refuse it. Assuming they refuse education, what would be your method of eradicating religion?
    I can only answer questions that make sense or at the very least, clarified. You are free to draw your own conclusions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    You are free to fantasize about such things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    There is a strong correlation between the supernatual and unexplained events.
    You are free to fantasize about such things.
    As you are free to let me do so.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    You're still dodging. I take that to mean you can't answer the question.

    It doesn't matter under what conditions they refuse education. Just that they refuse it. Assuming they refuse education, what would be your method of eradicating religion?
    I can only answer questions that make sense or at the very least, clarified. You are free to draw your own conclusions.
    LOL

    I thought atheists didn't dodge questions.


    I'd say my question is very clear. You simply don't want to answer it.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist


    I'd say my question is very clear. You simply don't want to answer it.
    No, it's not clear, at all. It is as vague and general a question as could be.

    Are you referring to parents refusing education for their children?
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  99. #98 Re: Is Atheism another rebellious group? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Harold, it's admirable of you that you are gracious with them. And I was not for a moment suggesting that you SHOULD be rude or get angry with them. My point was that if you do not accept their beliefs, then why not? What makes YOUR religion any more credible?
    You make too many assumptions, Ron. Did I even say I had a religion? The only thing I did was ask why people think they have a right to get angry at JWs.
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    Guys, for your information, you can't insult me, period. I'm not being a smart-ass, its just the way it is. You have no idea who I am or what I do. I may not be the image you've formed in your mind, in fact I'm sure of it.

    The entire premis of god-belief religion depends on a separate reality and the supernatural. I for one would like to at least have a glimpse of either before I'm convinced. Religions are talking about something they have never witnessed. Granted, strong religions usually are held together by text that they claim are the words of their deity. Unfortunately no one has ever physically heard divine verbiage, it just doesn't happen, year after year after year. I am tired of believers who constantly remodel their God to suit the situation. It is the most glaring signal that none of them know what they're talking about.

    The story of god has gone on long enough. How do you think modern man compares with our ancestors? Knowledge of the world and universe alone is far beyond that of our ancestors. I'm not chastising our ancestors for that and I consider their belief in a god an admirable and believe it or not, a logical attempt at explaining their beginnings. Its worked for many centuries but now it has run its course. Ancient religions are ancient for one reason, they die. We know so much more and its not our fault. We are inquisitive, we explore, we discover. Let that be our legacy.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    air is not invisible. in fact, its clearly visible from space, in large concentrations. electrons are not invisible. we just don't have the technology to see them directly. we can still view them indirectly.

    i suggest you start playing sudoku. its the scientific method compressed down into 9x9 squares.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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