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Thread: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious ones?

  1. #1 Why are there more atheist scientists than religious ones? 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).


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  3. #2  
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    Some of them suddenly feel doubt, then decides to run away from it? :-D


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  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    I'd say it's because the scientific point of view is one that requires supporting evidence of a certain kind. Science and religion are separate things, so one can be a scientist and still be religious. Despite this, someone who has spent a great deal of time looking at the world with this scientist point of view, will probably feel this point of view spreading into other areas of their lives as well.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  5. #4  
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    I am inclined to agree with Obviously. Some people are easily swayed and have a hard time dealing with the concept of "I don't know". If they hear a question they can't immediately answer they feel threatened and run. Unfortunately for Christianity, most people miss the boat when it comes to outreach and witnessing. They make people feel attacked and become arguementative. When people argue the ears seem to stop working and people yell to be heard and refuse to hear. This is frustrating for some people and they quickly give up.

    There is a double standard on this site. It's ok for scientists to refine their ideas to make all the "puzzle pieces" fit together into an acceptable logical theory. But when a christian does the same thing with their faith and belief structure they are rationalizing to perpetuate self dilusion. I am willing to admit there is much that I do not know. I expect to learn alot more about God and science before I "check out" of this world.


    As far as being a scientist and a christian.

    Have any of you as a secular scientist tried to get funding for a reasearch project that is outside the normal realm accepted scientific ideas? Or have you ever tried to get research capitol for any project at all. Money is limited and it is increasingly difficult for any govenment funded educational facilities (colleges) to allow student research from the perspective of christianity.

    Funding is the reason there are more secular scientists than Christian Scientists.

    For my own research I have been forced to study the results of secular scientists and reevaluate the data and the conclusions they reached. (A practice normally done by secular scientists as well).
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    ...so one can be a scientist and still be religious...
    I believe both to be equally justifable as each other, in fact they both go hand in hand. Science is chosen as it is the most efficient way of describing the universe around us, where religion has done that in the past, but now numbers are overtaking words. However no one true thing is correct, for instance evolution, life evolved, Christians say "Thats not true because God made humanity". I believe in God and evolution. However my approach is part science part Christian part Deist. How can evolution and God go together? Simple, God created the universe in such a way that when the big bang occured He knew eventually that we would be created. He didn't have to slave over a hot stove for 5 hours. This is where both science and religion collide, both at me either side 8).
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    For my own research I have been forced to study the results of secular scientists and reevaluate the data and the conclusions they reached. (A practice normally done by secular scientists as well).
    You think the results will differ depending on whether you are christian or secular? What area of research are you talking about?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    There is a double standard on this site. It's ok for scientists to refine their ideas to make all the "puzzle pieces" fit together into an acceptable logical theory. But when a christian does the same thing with their faith and belief structure they are rationalizing to perpetuate self dilusion. I am willing to admit there is much that I do not know. I expect to learn alot more about God and science before I "check out" of this world.
    I haven't noticed such a double standard. Sure it's acceptable in science to sometimes make a small 'leap in the dark', to theorize without relevant evidence, but there are limits to this. People who go too far often find their threads back in the pseudo-science section or worse. This treatment is also applied, with the same strictness, when people excuse their leap in the dark as part of a belief system. Actually the fact that this science forum has a religion section can be seen as unequal treatment in favour of religious people: only in this section it's usually tolerated when people make grandiose assumptions (like "an omnipotent and unknowable being called god exists") which would normally be way outside the realm of science.

    Funding is the reason there are more secular scientists than Christian Scientists.
    I'm sorry but that statement can easily be falsified. If funding was the main cause then students, who don't need to worry about funding yet, shouldn't have any reason to be 'pushed' into secularism. If it turns out that this forum is for a large part populated by students then funding can't explain why so many members are secular (assuming that most members of this forum can be called scientists).
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  9. #8  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    can some verify the meaning of this for me?

    research from the perspective of christianity.
    what exactly is this referring to?
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  10. #9 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  11. #10 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    I'll shut up now then .
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  12. #11 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  13. #12 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  14. #13 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.

    explain your meaning of closed minded?


    you think atheists join science forums because they dont fit in anywhere else what are you on about, thats two totally odd sayings in very close proximety


    I always wonder why religious folk are on a science forum, i thought their "perfect books" had all the answers they need, obviously not
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  15. #14 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.

    explain your meaning of closed minded?


    you think atheists join science forums because they dont fit in anywhere else what are you on about, thats two totally odd sayings in very close proximety


    I always wonder why religious folk are on a science forum, i thought their "perfect books" had all the answers they need, obviously not
    Erm, I have no idea how to respond to this because I think you meant it asa joke didn't you? I'm saying that some atheists conform to science for perhaps the same reason some religious folk do, conformity, or fear. Obviously a lot of atheists and religious folk will not do it out of fear, everyone has their own reasons, its just that pavlos was being the sterotypical version of someone on this forum, jumping down the throat of religion because it is the first thing to place the blame on. It really makes me laugh to be honest. I'm Christian and I've got the balls to stand up to everyone and give my opinion, (which by the way I'm not allowed to have one according to some people because I'm a religious person-talk about discrimination). I'm the odd one out and proud of it.

    I was quoting Pavlos other post which by the lol's I'm guessing you've noticed . I quoted it to say she's contradicted herself, mwhahahaha!

    The Holy Books don't have all the answers, my physics text book does, they are in both close proximity to each other. One tells me how to live my life, the other tells me all I need to know and am curious about-such as cool things like lasers .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  16. #15 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.

    explain your meaning of closed minded?


    you think atheists join science forums because they dont fit in anywhere else what are you on about, thats two totally odd sayings in very close proximety


    I always wonder why religious folk are on a science forum, i thought their "perfect books" had all the answers they need, obviously not
    Erm, I have no idea how to respond to this because I think you meant it asa joke didn't you? I'm saying that some atheists conform to science for perhaps the same reason some religious folk do, conformity, or fear. Obviously a lot of atheists and religious folk will not do it out of fear, everyone has their own reasons, its just that pavlos was being the sterotypical version of someone on this forum, jumping down the throat of religion because it is the first thing to place the blame on. It really makes me laugh to be honest. I'm Christian and I've got the balls to stand up to everyone and give my opinion, (which by the way I'm not allowed to have one according to some people because I'm a religious person-talk about discrimination). I'm the odd one out and proud of it.

    I was quoting Pavlos other post which by the lol's I'm guessing you've noticed . I quoted it to say she's contradicted herself, mwhahahaha!

    The Holy Books don't have all the answers, my physics text book does, they are in both close proximity to each other. One tells me how to live my life, the other tells me all I need to know and am curious about-such as cool things like lasers .

    See your making the same mistakes again, by saying "some atheists...." again you have nothing to back up this claim, than an idea that pops into your head at the time

    can you back up your claim?

    yeah i suppose some people do need a book to tell them how to live their lives thats kind of sad though, dont you think?
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  17. #16 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    how is it closed minded when your stating facts, am I wrong in believing there are churches mosgues etc. in every town, am I wrong in believing that the religious stand on street corners preaching at passers by, am I wrong in believing some kind of religion is in every country, and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    or dont you read the news.


    oh and svw my avatar is a female, I'm not I just like the picture ok.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  18. #17 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.

    explain your meaning of closed minded?


    you think atheists join science forums because they dont fit in anywhere else what are you on about, thats two totally odd sayings in very close proximety


    I always wonder why religious folk are on a science forum, i thought their "perfect books" had all the answers they need, obviously not
    Erm, I have no idea how to respond to this because I think you meant it asa joke didn't you? I'm saying that some atheists conform to science for perhaps the same reason some religious folk do, conformity, or fear. Obviously a lot of atheists and religious folk will not do it out of fear, everyone has their own reasons, its just that pavlos was being the sterotypical version of someone on this forum, jumping down the throat of religion because it is the first thing to place the blame on. It really makes me laugh to be honest. I'm Christian and I've got the balls to stand up to everyone and give my opinion, (which by the way I'm not allowed to have one according to some people because I'm a religious person-talk about discrimination). I'm the odd one out and proud of it.

    I was quoting Pavlos other post which by the lol's I'm guessing you've noticed . I quoted it to say she's contradicted herself, mwhahahaha!

    The Holy Books don't have all the answers, my physics text book does, they are in both close proximity to each other. One tells me how to live my life, the other tells me all I need to know and am curious about-such as cool things like lasers .

    See your making the same mistakes again, by saying "some atheists...." again you have nothing to back up this claim, than an idea that pops into your head at the time

    can you back up your claim?

    yeah i suppose some people do need a book to tell them how to live their lives thats kind of sad though, dont you think?
    I don't see why I should take the time to find evidence when its right under your nose, besides any atheist that makes a wild acusation doesn't have any evidence either, if I do present it it will just get ripped to shreds. The world doesn't need evidence all the time.

    No I don't think its sad. Some people just may need guidance and cannot talk to people about it, maybe they just are interested in living their life a new way, like someone wanting to go on a diet-they need a dietary book to help them do that. I need a physics boook to help me with the way I live my life accroding to science. If people want religion they should have the freedom to do so and have the freedom to not be insulted. The same goes with atheists. If they want to be atheists they should have the freedom to be, and should have the freedom to not be insulted. Bair in mind that ideas are not insults, just as facts are not insults, it's the human mind telling you what you don't want to believe, denial. Oh what do you know, thats the most predictive of all human responses.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  19. #18 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    how is it closed minded when your stating facts, am I wrong in believing there are churches mosgues etc. in every town, am I wrong in believing that the religious stand on street corners preaching at passers by, am I wrong in believing some kind of religion is in every country, and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    or dont you read the news.

    personally i see anyone religious as being more closed minded, purely because the adhere to a book that CANNOT be altered, disputed or questioned, the book is the truth and timeless in their eyes therefore closing their minds to future developments
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  20. #19 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    Well, unless atheists don't count as people, then clearly somebody does in fact give a flying shit about these subjects, because here we all are talking about them. What mundane topics are you referring to? Mundane doesn't necessarily equal "random nonsense," either, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, are you implying that religious people never talk about mundane things?

    Just to clarify, do you think that most atheists come to science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else? "Some" is a very vague term. It could mean most, it could mean half, it could mean anything you want. I'd like to get a clearer idea of what you mean before I respond to that point.

    A religious person can be serious about science. But science and religion are two separate things. Yes, I know, to you personally you use science and religion to explain the world around you. But science does not deal with religious topics, because it can't. Religion is about supernatural forces that cannot be known through natural means, and since science only deals with things that can be known through natural means, then science cannot say anything about religion. Thus they are separate. Thus it is more appropriate to discuss scientific topics in a science based forum. Whether you are theistic or not.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  21. #20 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    ...personally i see anyone religious as being more closed minded, purely because the adhere to a book that CANNOT be altered, disputed or questioned, the book is the truth and timeless in their eyes therefore closing their minds to future developments
    Thats called faith, blind faith. Thats why being blind where you can see, we can see where you are blind.
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  22. #21 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    Well, unless atheists don't count as people, then clearly somebody does in fact give a flying shit about these subjects, because here we all are talking about them. What mundane topics are you referring to? Mundane doesn't necessarily equal "random nonsense," either, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, are you implying that religious people never talk about mundane things?

    Just to clarify, do you think that most atheists come to science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else? "Some" is a very vague term. It could mean most, it could mean half, it could mean anything you want. I'd like to get a clearer idea of what you mean before I respond to that point.

    A religious person can be serious about science. But science and religion are two separate things. Yes, I know, to you personally you use science and religion to explain the world around you. But science does not deal with religious topics, because it can't. Religion is about supernatural forces that cannot be known through natural means, and since science only deals with things that can be known through natural means, then science cannot say anything about religion. Thus they are separate. Thus it is more appropriate to discuss scientific topics in a science based forum. Whether you are theistic or not.
    Can I please talk to someone who is not black and white?

    I understand your point of view but the problem with most young folk is the inability to see things from each others perspectives. I've tried numerous times to compromise and had no one do the same, so here I am being being left in the lurch is what is the middleground of grey.

    PS, Just because something is rational or logical, doesn't make it true. They thought some kind of 'ether' existed becuase it was logical 100 years ago, likewise with dark matter all the way to psychodynamic approaches to psychology (bless Freud) back in the day, but they are being proven to be somehwhat if not all wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see it this way, I can't communicate with you if you don't understand.
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  23. #22 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.

    explain your meaning of closed minded?


    you think atheists join science forums because they dont fit in anywhere else what are you on about, thats two totally odd sayings in very close proximety


    I always wonder why religious folk are on a science forum, i thought their "perfect books" had all the answers they need, obviously not
    Erm, I have no idea how to respond to this because I think you meant it asa joke didn't you? I'm saying that some atheists conform to science for perhaps the same reason some religious folk do, conformity, or fear. Obviously a lot of atheists and religious folk will not do it out of fear, everyone has their own reasons, its just that pavlos was being the sterotypical version of someone on this forum, jumping down the throat of religion because it is the first thing to place the blame on. It really makes me laugh to be honest. I'm Christian and I've got the balls to stand up to everyone and give my opinion, (which by the way I'm not allowed to have one according to some people because I'm a religious person-talk about discrimination). I'm the odd one out and proud of it.

    I was quoting Pavlos other post which by the lol's I'm guessing you've noticed . I quoted it to say she's contradicted herself, mwhahahaha!

    The Holy Books don't have all the answers, my physics text book does, they are in both close proximity to each other. One tells me how to live my life, the other tells me all I need to know and am curious about-such as cool things like lasers .

    See your making the same mistakes again, by saying "some atheists...." again you have nothing to back up this claim, than an idea that pops into your head at the time

    can you back up your claim?

    yeah i suppose some people do need a book to tell them how to live their lives thats kind of sad though, dont you think?
    I don't see why I should take the time to find evidence when its right under your nose, besides any atheist that makes a wild acusation doesn't have any evidence either, if I do present it it will just get ripped to shreds. The world doesn't need evidence all the time.

    No I don't think its sad. Some people just may need guidance and cannot talk to people about it, maybe they just are interested in living their life a new way, like someone wanting to go on a diet-they need a dietary book to help them do that. I need a physics boook to help me with the way I live my life accroding to science. If people want religion they should have the freedom to do so and have the freedom to not be insulted. The same goes with atheists. If they want to be atheists they should have the freedom to be, and should have the freedom to not be insulted. Bair in mind that ideas are not insults, just as facts are not insults, it's the human mind telling you what you don't want to believe, denial. Oh what do you know, thats the most predictive of all human responses.

    Im sorry but theology and politics are open for as much scrutiny as possible in many cases, they are both choices and view points and should not have the liberty of sanctuary from such

    If thats a problem, well sorry and welcome to the real world

    I still find it very amusing that you need a book to guide you thorugh your life, maybe thats just me being mentally stronger and relying on my instincts

    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?

    Any examples would possibly help me understand your situation
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  24. #23 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    ...personally i see anyone religious as being more closed minded, purely because the adhere to a book that CANNOT be altered, disputed or questioned, the book is the truth and timeless in their eyes therefore closing their minds to future developments
    Thats called faith, blind faith. Thats why being blind where you can see, we can see where you are blind.

    I'll take that as a yes
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  25. #24 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.
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  26. #25 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    Well, unless atheists don't count as people, then clearly somebody does in fact give a flying shit about these subjects, because here we all are talking about them. What mundane topics are you referring to? Mundane doesn't necessarily equal "random nonsense," either, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, are you implying that religious people never talk about mundane things?

    Just to clarify, do you think that most atheists come to science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else? "Some" is a very vague term. It could mean most, it could mean half, it could mean anything you want. I'd like to get a clearer idea of what you mean before I respond to that point.

    A religious person can be serious about science. But science and religion are two separate things. Yes, I know, to you personally you use science and religion to explain the world around you. But science does not deal with religious topics, because it can't. Religion is about supernatural forces that cannot be known through natural means, and since science only deals with things that can be known through natural means, then science cannot say anything about religion. Thus they are separate. Thus it is more appropriate to discuss scientific topics in a science based forum. Whether you are theistic or not.
    Can I please talk to someone who is not black and white?

    I understand your point of view but the problem with most young folk is the inability to see things from each others perspectives. I've tried numerous times to compromise and had no one do the same, so here I am being being left in the lurch is what is the middleground of grey.

    PS, Just because something is rational or logical, doesn't make it true. They thought some kind of 'ether' existed becuase it was logical 100 years ago, likewise with dark matter all the way to psychodynamic approaches to psychology (bless Freud) back in the day, but they are being proven to be somehwhat if not all wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see it this way, I can't communicate with you if you don't understand.

    they are valid points and not black and white

    science definition

    Science, in the broadest sense, refers to any system of knowledge which attempts to model objective reality. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research
    you cannot use scientific methods on religion therefore it is seperate, science is about observable information, not "feelings" and "faith"
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  27. #26 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    svw


    just as many atheists do not feel the need to harp on about their non belief, many religious also do not feel the need to harp on about their religion.
    but they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they.
    in every street corner, in every town, in every country, they never give up.
    and if you dont accept what there saying they will kill your arse.
    If thats your opinion I'd like you to back it up becasue it sounds nonsense to me, are you in effect being CLOSED MINDED, isn't that a waste...

    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    how is it closed minded when your stating facts, am I wrong in believing there are churches mosgues etc. in every town, am I wrong in believing that the religious stand on street corners preaching at passers by, am I wrong in believing some kind of religion is in every country, and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    or dont you read the news.
    Is it inconvienient that there are churches and mosques? Hm? You hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    Yes I won't kill you for not believing, I won't even say your wrong for not believing, all I'm doing here is defending myself and religion in general from random insults.


    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    or dont you read the news.
    Yes. But are they always supposed to be right? All the time? The public believe what the media tell them to believe, that means if you are gullable enough to listen to them as always being right then you are not really expressing your own beliefs are you? Just soemone elses. A puppet of the system, a pawn.
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  28. #27 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Can I please talk to someone who is not black and white?

    I understand your point of view but the problem with most young folk is the inability to see things from each others perspectives. I've tried numerous times to compromise and had no one do the same, so here I am being being left in the lurch is what is the middleground of grey.

    PS, Just because something is rational or logical, doesn't make it true. They thought some kind of 'ether' existed becuase it was logical 100 years ago, likewise with dark matter all the way to psychodynamic approaches to psychology (bless Freud) back in the day, but they are being proven to be somehwhat if not all wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see it this way, I can't communicate with you if you don't understand.
    I agree. Just because something is rational or logical doesn't make it true. Many things that seemed rational and logical at the time have since been shown - with scientific logic - to be false. People are people and can be wrong. What they guess to be one thing or another can be wrong. But the process of science helps us to truly explore and understand those guesses, and leads us closer to the truth. You may think this is black and white, but I do not. I see science as an accumulative, dynamic process whose very purpose is to gradually expand towards and explore those areas that you call "the middleground of grey." You blame me for not changing my point of view, but you are also refusing to communicate with someone who does not have YOUR point of view. This is an interesting proposition for someone lamenting young people's inability to see from other perspectives.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  29. #28 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.

    come half way? what half believe is spiritual mumbo jumbo?


    God doesn't exist, your book is a man made fictional book, how can i go half way on that?
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  30. #29 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I find it funny that religious people aren't allowed to rant on, yet most atheists like discussing all the mundane things that no one really gives a flying sh!t about, such as saying "Oh I wonder if the random nonsense that has no relation to something relevant, therefore we should spend hours on it for no reason!" I think atheists join science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else (SOME NOT ALL, LETS NO GO INTO THAT). You wouldn't join a religious science forum would you? Of course nmot how can any religious person be serious about science. Bottom line: So I'll grant you the liberty of ranting on if you so the same liberty.
    Well, unless atheists don't count as people, then clearly somebody does in fact give a flying shit about these subjects, because here we all are talking about them. What mundane topics are you referring to? Mundane doesn't necessarily equal "random nonsense," either, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, are you implying that religious people never talk about mundane things?

    Just to clarify, do you think that most atheists come to science forums because they don't fit in anywhere else? "Some" is a very vague term. It could mean most, it could mean half, it could mean anything you want. I'd like to get a clearer idea of what you mean before I respond to that point.

    A religious person can be serious about science. But science and religion are two separate things. Yes, I know, to you personally you use science and religion to explain the world around you. But science does not deal with religious topics, because it can't. Religion is about supernatural forces that cannot be known through natural means, and since science only deals with things that can be known through natural means, then science cannot say anything about religion. Thus they are separate. Thus it is more appropriate to discuss scientific topics in a science based forum. Whether you are theistic or not.
    Can I please talk to someone who is not black and white?

    I understand your point of view but the problem with most young folk is the inability to see things from each others perspectives. I've tried numerous times to compromise and had no one do the same, so here I am being being left in the lurch is what is the middleground of grey.

    PS, Just because something is rational or logical, doesn't make it true. They thought some kind of 'ether' existed becuase it was logical 100 years ago, likewise with dark matter all the way to psychodynamic approaches to psychology (bless Freud) back in the day, but they are being proven to be somehwhat if not all wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see it this way, I can't communicate with you if you don't understand.

    they are valid points and not black and white

    science definition

    Science, in the broadest sense, refers to any system of knowledge which attempts to model objective reality. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research
    you cannot use scientific methods on religion therefore it is seperate, science is about observable information, not "feelings" and "faith"
    Your not listening to what I'm saying, just stuck on your self assertion as always. The points being valid are completley different to them being black and white. They are valid for a black and white answer but I can't give you one or we'd carry on forever

    Wiki quote! Wiki quote!

    Heres my belief:

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  31. #30 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Can I please talk to someone who is not black and white?

    I understand your point of view but the problem with most young folk is the inability to see things from each others perspectives. I've tried numerous times to compromise and had no one do the same, so here I am being being left in the lurch is what is the middleground of grey.

    PS, Just because something is rational or logical, doesn't make it true. They thought some kind of 'ether' existed becuase it was logical 100 years ago, likewise with dark matter all the way to psychodynamic approaches to psychology (bless Freud) back in the day, but they are being proven to be somehwhat if not all wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see it this way, I can't communicate with you if you don't understand.
    I agree. Just because something is rational or logical doesn't make it true. Many things that seemed rational and logical at the time have since been shown - with scientific logic - to be false. People are people and can be wrong. What they guess to be one thing or another can be wrong. But the process of science helps us to truly explore and understand those guesses, and leads us closer to the truth. You may think this is black and white, but I do not. I see science as an accumulative, dynamic process whose very purpose is to gradually expand towards and explore those areas that you call "the middleground of grey." You blame me for not changing my point of view, but you are also refusing to communicate with someone who does not have YOUR point of view. This is an interesting proposition for someone lamenting young people's inability to see from other perspectives.
    You may think this is black and white
    I don't thats why I said can I speak to someone not black and white.

    I am not wanting you to come all the way to my point of view as I wouldn't go all the way to yours, meet me in the middle! And I'm not blaming you! For goodness sake I don't even know what I'm defending here, I really don't I've lost the plot because you lot have ben pushing me so far around the bend that my original point has gone completley.

    You want to know why we aren't making sense to each other? Becuase everytime that you've mis interpereted my posts you've made another accustation about something and I've defended it. Your making no sense and I've only noticed becuase I can't make sense of what this debate is now about. I just defended the accusation by pavlos and all of a sudden were here! WTF!?
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  32. #31 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.

    come half way? what half believe is spiritual mumbo jumbo?


    God doesn't exist, your book is a man made fictional book, how can i go half way on that?
    By you coming half way you say: God may exist and the book may not be man made fiction.

    I come half way and say: God may not exist, and the book may be man made fiction (although I can't do that because its against my faith so I never can actually come anyway towards you. Sorry but it's like that, and that's the way it is.
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  33. #32 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
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  34. #33 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.

    come half way? what half believe is spiritual mumbo jumbo?


    God doesn't exist, your book is a man made fictional book, how can i go half way on that?
    By you coming half way you say: God may exist and the book may not be man made fiction.

    I come half way and say: God may not exist, and the book may be man made fiction (although I can't do that because its against my faith so I never can actually come anyway towards you. Sorry but it's like that, and that's the way it is.

    well ditto, im a strong atheist, so by definition, i dont believe in a god, gods, angels fairys, goblins are anything else, I personally believe anyone who is religious is deluded in that area and for someone to not only believe but base their life around a "faith" book as even more so
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  35. #34 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am not wanting you to come all the way to my point of view as I wouldn't go all the way to yours, meet me in the middle! And I'm not blaming you! For goodness sake I don't even know what I'm defending here, I really don't I've lost the plot because you lot have ben pushing me so far around the bend that my original point has gone completley.

    You want to know why we aren't making sense to each other? Becuase everytime that you've mis interpereted my posts you've made another accustation about something and I've defended it. Your making no sense and I've only noticed becuase I can't make sense of what this debate is now about. I just defended the accusation by pavlos and all of a sudden were here! WTF!?
    Well, to be completely honest svwillmer, I ask you lots of questions because your initial points are often very vague and ill defined. It's hard to discuss something when you're not even clear on what you're discussing in the first place. So I ask for clarification on what you mean. I'm sorry if you take that as some personal accusation. I'm just trying to have a good discussion.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  36. #35 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  37. #36 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.

    come half way? what half believe is spiritual mumbo jumbo?


    God doesn't exist, your book is a man made fictional book, how can i go half way on that?
    By you coming half way you say: God may exist and the book may not be man made fiction.

    I come half way and say: God may not exist, and the book may be man made fiction (although I can't do that because its against my faith so I never can actually come anyway towards you. Sorry but it's like that, and that's the way it is.

    well ditto, im a strong atheist, so by definition, i dont believe in a god, gods, angels fairys, goblins are anything else, I personally believe anyone who is religious is deluded in that area and for someone to not only believe but base their life around a "faith" book as even more so
    In the same way I beleive all atheists will one day be like us and see. Thats basically the anti of what you just said so you feel now what I just felt when I read your post.

    If you look at some folk, some are very much a like to The Bible even though they don't have religion. It depends how you actually classify religion.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  38. #37 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
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  39. #38 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am not wanting you to come all the way to my point of view as I wouldn't go all the way to yours, meet me in the middle! And I'm not blaming you! For goodness sake I don't even know what I'm defending here, I really don't I've lost the plot because you lot have ben pushing me so far around the bend that my original point has gone completley.

    You want to know why we aren't making sense to each other? Becuase everytime that you've mis interpereted my posts you've made another accustation about something and I've defended it. Your making no sense and I've only noticed becuase I can't make sense of what this debate is now about. I just defended the accusation by pavlos and all of a sudden were here! WTF!?
    Well, to be completely honest svwillmer, I ask you lots of questions because your initial points are often very vague and ill defined. It's hard to discuss something when you're not even clear on what you're discussing in the first place. So I ask for clarification on what you mean. I'm sorry if you take that as some personal accusation. I'm just trying to have a good discussion.
    No, its not you its pavlos and 'his' insult. I can't really discuss things anyway like this when I'm replying to like 3 people at once. I can't keep track, I've wrote at least 2000 words by now :?.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  40. #39 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    So at what point do you consult the all knowing book? do you have an argument with someone and then address the book for guidance on the best way of dealing with it?
    No. I'll never be able to help you or anyone else understand it unless you try and come half way.

    come half way? what half believe is spiritual mumbo jumbo?


    God doesn't exist, your book is a man made fictional book, how can i go half way on that?
    By you coming half way you say: God may exist and the book may not be man made fiction.

    I come half way and say: God may not exist, and the book may be man made fiction (although I can't do that because its against my faith so I never can actually come anyway towards you. Sorry but it's like that, and that's the way it is.

    well ditto, im a strong atheist, so by definition, i dont believe in a god, gods, angels fairys, goblins are anything else, I personally believe anyone who is religious is deluded in that area and for someone to not only believe but base their life around a "faith" book as even more so
    In the same way I beleive all atheists will one day be like us and see. Thats basically the anti of what you just said so you feel now what I just felt when I read your post.

    If you look at some folk, some are very much a like to The Bible even though they don't have religion. It depends how you actually classify religion.

    sorry i didn't feel anything, was i meant to be upset by the comment?

    you believe all atheists will be theists? based on what?

    The twentieth century saw a decline in religious belief and an increase in secularisation in the developed world. Fewer people in Europe are actively religious and people are free to declare their disbelief in gods with little fear of reprisal or social disadvantage. Mobile populations and the mass media have made most parts of the world aware of a range of belief systems, and more liberal attitudes mean that people often feel free to choose a philosophy for themselves. The growth of studies such as anthropology, pioneered in Sir James Frazer's exhaustive collection of myths and customs, showed religions as natural human creations, and encouraged a more relativist and tolerant attitude towards other cultures
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


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  41. #40 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  42. #41 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    well i wouldn't have said jesus through me, unless the author was also called jesus? did he do any other books? authors usually do say its hard to follow the success of their first book
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  43. #42 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    See my username
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

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  44. #43 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    well i wouldn't have said jesus through me, unless the author was also called jesus? did he do any other books? authors usually do say its hard to follow the success of their first book
    You genuinely find this stuff funny, don't you?

    "did he do any other books?"
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
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  45. #44 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    well i wouldn't have said jesus through me, unless the author was also called jesus? did he do any other books? authors usually do say its hard to follow the success of their first book
    You genuinely find this stuff funny, don't you?
    What I find funny is that if quotes carry on the original box in the middle isn't going to have enough space in it for any text!
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  46. #45 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Ph.D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    well i wouldn't have said jesus through me, unless the author was also called jesus? did he do any other books? authors usually do say its hard to follow the success of their first book
    You genuinely find this stuff funny, don't you?
    What I find funny is that if quotes carry on the original box in the middle isn't going to have enough space in it for any text!
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
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  47. #46 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    1. Just because someone participates in "The Science Forum" does not mean they are a scientist. There are a number of regular posters on the religion sub-forum who never show up on any science threads.

    2. Just because there are no religious scientists posting on the religion sub-forum of "The Science Forum" does not mean that such people do not exist. I know and work with a number of such engineers including two in particular who I would consider among the smartest people I know, and who are active in their churches.

    It is not surprising to me that someone might choose not to participate on the religion threads. There is no way to prove anything one way or the other, so the same old arguments tend to get rehashed over and over again. Some folks never seem to get tired of that, though.
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  48. #47 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    God created everything. Science helps us understand the universe. Science can't explain God but God can explain science.

    science helps us understand the universe, why not stick to this and keep the religion to your self

    science cant explain god, in the same way it cant explain the flying spaghetti monster, thats simply because by the definition of science, it must be observable, which your god isn't

    An atheists hypothesis on this is because god doesn't exist, i take that further to god is a man made ficticious entity to help people like yourself(by your own admission), who need guidance where others do not

    Explain to me how god can explain science?? or are you going to use the line of god working through scientists(atheists or not) as his "will"
    Keep religion to myself, in the same way you lot keep atheism to yourself! Ha! So the next time someone insults religion I should just take it and no say anything, and keep it to myslef, in other words, be suppressed?
    i think thats "turn the other cheek", if i remember correctly I think thats in your life instruction book somewhere, sorry its been along time since i read those kind of books

    I see you didn't pick up on the other points :wink:
    Thank you. Jesus through you to me. Unbelievable I forgot that. Thank you.
    well i wouldn't have said jesus through me, unless the author was also called jesus? did he do any other books? authors usually do say its hard to follow the success of their first book
    You genuinely find this stuff funny, don't you?

    "did he do any other books?"
    yeah, sorry but i do
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  49. #48 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    1. Just because someone participates in "The Science Forum" does not mean they are a scientist. There are a number of regular posters on the religion sub-forum who never show up on any science threads.

    2. Just because there are no religious scientists posting on the religion sub-forum of "The Science Forum" does not mean that such people do not exist. I know and work with a number of such engineers including two in particular who I would consider among the smartest people I know, and who are active in their churches.

    It is not surprising to me that someone might choose not to participate on the religion threads. There is no way to prove anything one way or the other, so the same old arguments tend to get rehashed over and over again. Some folks never seem to get tired of that, though.
    Yea, you're right.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  50. #49 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    how is it closed minded when your stating facts, am I wrong in believing there are churches mosgues etc. in every town, am I wrong in believing that the religious stand on street corners preaching at passers by, am I wrong in believing some kind of religion is in every country, and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    or dont you read the news.
    Is it inconvienient that there are churches and mosques? Hm? You hypocrite.
    why am I a hypocrite, I'm just proving my point.
    the point was, unless you forgot, " that they still manage to preach and postulate a lot dont they"so how is it hypocritical, I haven't changed my opinion, you need to read a dictionary.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    and am I wrong in believing that if you dont succumb to there way of thinking they will either harm you or kill you.
    Yes I won't kill you for not believing, I won't even say your wrong for not believing, all I'm doing here is defending myself and religion in general from random insults.
    if your god told you to kill the guy next door, because he was a blasphemer, would you disobey him?
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    or dont you read the news.
    Yes. But are they always supposed to be right? All the time? The public believe what the media tell them to believe, that means if you are gullable enough to listen to them as always being right then you are not really expressing your own beliefs are you? Just soemone elses. A puppet of the system, a pawn.
    I never said the news was right or wrong but there has been a lot of people killed by religious nut jobs, all the religious are potential timebombs.
    I not insulting you just stating a fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    No, its not you its pavlos and 'his' insult.
    what insult.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  51. #50 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    I not insulting you just stating a fact.
    My Grandma used to say that :P, your definatley from England.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    if your god told you to kill the guy next door, because he was a blasphemer, would you disobey him?
    Our God would not ask me to kill him because he was a blasphemer, he never would, read the Abraham going to sacrafice his son Issac story and you'll understand its only a test of faith and would never actually let you do it because it would be hypocritical of the ten commandments.

    Whats the chance of him talking to me anyway according to atheists?

    *TURNS THE OTHER CHEEK*
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  52. #51 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    I not insulting you just stating a fact.
    My Grandma used to say that :P, your definatley from England.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    if your god told you to kill the guy next door, because he was a blasphemer, would you disobey him?
    Our God would not ask me to kill him because he was a blasphemer, he never would, read the Abraham going to sacrafice his son Issac story and you'll understand its only a test of faith and would never actually let you do it because it would be hypocritical of the ten commandments.
    ok but your avoiding the question, so he would not ask you.
    But if your god ask you to kill because he was gods enemy, and a blasphemer (hypothetically) would you disobey him. would you question gods will. and are you seriously talking about the god of the old testament, the one that gave us the commandments, and totally ignored them himself.

    what insult are you talking about.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  53. #52  
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    Svwillmer, Scientistphilosophertheist, no spam please. I have deleted 3 posts which contains nothing but smileys..
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  54. #53 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    I not insulting you just stating a fact.
    My Grandma used to say that :P, your definatley from England.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    if your god told you to kill the guy next door, because he was a blasphemer, would you disobey him?
    Our God would not ask me to kill him because he was a blasphemer, he never would, read the Abraham going to sacrafice his son Issac story and you'll understand its only a test of faith and would never actually let you do it because it would be hypocritical of the ten commandments.
    ok but your avoiding the question, so he would not ask you.
    But if your god ask you to kill because he was gods enemy, and a blasphemer (hypothetically) would you disobey him. would you question gods will. and are you seriously talking about the god of the old testament, the one that gave us the commandments, and totally ignored them himself.

    what insult are you talking about.
    I have no idea what you mean. I don't question God's will. I would not disobey Him if he asked me to kill someone BUT HE WOULD NOT ACTUALLY LET ME DO THAT, thats already in the Bible about it being a test of faith. There is one God, Jesus had the spirit of God within Him, although Jesus was very much able to be mis-interpereted to be God or not. I still follow the ten commandments. You'll find that this is where Christianity breaks down. The Catholics tend to go after the old testament (which is why they seem a bit loopy and hypocritical, self contradicting. But Protostants believe in what Jesus said about being forgiving (not that He meant commit adultery please don't assume that I thought you might do), and being judged by God alone, which is also where the 'Earth is hell' thing comes from :?, and they more or less disobey the old testament and favour the new testament, which is why there are a lot more adulteries, murders stealing etc in our society as society has assimilated all that since the reformation, yet Italy is different and has far less crime and a larger population.

    Methodists like me tend to take both in and realise that the ten commandments apply, and all Jesus teachings. Its not actually law thats what some think. Jesus taught us Gods will and we had the choice to obey or disobey, those who do either are at teh judgement of God and no one down here anymore which is why no methodists and particularly most Catholics and protostants don't do that any more such as killing becuase the Bible said so, Jesus rectified that. It may not make sense to you but everything is relative to the observor. Hope I've cleared a few things up here.

    PS I'm not directly insulting here, I'm noting what my beleif is but of course some are bound to take that such a way.

    When I stared follwing Christianity I had some teething problems as I kept saying you should'nt steal you could have your hands chopped off for it, can you believe that!? Fortunatley my Auntie of wise years helped me understand things more and guided me to the new testament as having more influence to most things, and that chopping hands off, hanging, and all sorts of things like that were overpassed due to Christ's teachings.

    Heres the proof about crimes commited: Finally I present some evidence. Watch out now :-D.
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...e-total-crimes

    Do you see Israel on there?
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    There is a huge body of evidence (including academic studies that have been published in peer-reviewed journals) that most physical scientists are atheists, or at least very non-religious. So it’s not too surprsing that many of the people who come to a science forum are atheists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    There is a huge body of evidence (including academic studies that have been published in peer-reviewed journals) that most physical scientists are atheists, or at least very non-religious. So it’s not too surprsing that many of the people who come to a science forum are atheists.
    Thats the clearest answer that there could be to that. Thank you very much for actually answering the orignal question .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  57. #56 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    ok but your avoiding the question, so he would not ask you.
    But if your god ask you to kill because he was gods enemy, and a blasphemer (hypothetically) would you disobey him. would you question gods will. and are you seriously talking about the god of the old testament, the one that gave us the commandments, and totally ignored them himself.

    what insult are you talking about.
    I have no idea what you mean. I don't question God's will. I would not disobey Him if he asked me to kill someone BUT HE WOULD NOT ACTUALLY LET ME DO THAT, thats already in the Bible about it being a test of faith.
    So was God just testing Moses and the Children of levi when he told them to kill, here.
    KJV Exodus 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
    28: And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

    was God just testing when he told moses and all the people to kill, here.
    KJV Numbers 15:32: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33: And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34: And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35: And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36: And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him
    with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

    just a couple of examples, theres thousands of others.
    So can you answer the question instead of saying my god wouldn't ask me to kill.
    Why are you any different, any more special than moses.

    if your god told you to kill would you disobey him. A simple yes /no answer please.
    thank you.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  58. #57 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    ok but your avoiding the question, so he would not ask you.
    But if your god ask you to kill because he was gods enemy, and a blasphemer (hypothetically) would you disobey him. would you question gods will. and are you seriously talking about the god of the old testament, the one that gave us the commandments, and totally ignored them himself.

    what insult are you talking about.
    I have no idea what you mean. I don't question God's will. I would not disobey Him if he asked me to kill someone BUT HE WOULD NOT ACTUALLY LET ME DO THAT, thats already in the Bible about it being a test of faith.
    So was God just testing Moses and the Children of levi when he told them to kill, here.
    KJV Exodus 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
    28: And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

    was God just testing when he told moses and all the people to kill, here.
    KJV Numbers 15:32: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33: And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34: And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35: And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36: And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him
    with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

    just a couple of examples, theres thousands of others.
    So can you answer the question instead of saying my god wouldn't ask me to kill.
    Why are you any different, any more special than moses.

    if your god told you to kill would you disobey him. A simple yes /no answer please. [quote/]
    No. What we don't understand. Would you kill 10,000 to save a million? Answer that with a yes or no answer, and read the chapters before and after. Why scrutinise the past with the present? And why ask me to do something that Jesus has rectifed and I've already told you about that. You don't understand religion truly because if you did you'd have religion, I don't tell rocket scientists to do their job, so in the same way don't tell me what religion is when I have it. Thank YOU.

    PS You judge all of religion on that one passage? Thats like me saying the Earth isn't flat using some archaiec explanation of the universe.

    Why don't you try reading the New Testament instead now and look at the protostant view? Then spend over a year analysing religion, thinking why such things were said and done, realise that Christ rectifies them and then say that.

    *TURNS THE OTHER CHEEK*
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  59. #58 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    No. What we don't understand. Would you kill 10,000 to save a million? Answer that with a yes or no answer, and read the chapters before and after. Why scrutinise the past with the present? And why ask me to do something that Jesus has rectifed and I've already told you about that. You don't understand religion truly because if you did you'd have religion, I don't tell rocket scientists to do their job, so in the same way don't tell me what religion is when I have it. Thank YOU.

    PS You judge all of religion on that one passage? Thats like me saying the Earth isn't flat using some archaiec explanation of the universe.
    I'm just curious, svwillmer. Do you think it's possible that a person could both completely understand religion and still not believe in it? That's seems like a highly subjective standard.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  60. #59 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    No. What we don't understand. Would you kill 10,000 to save a million?
    yes of course, if there was jusitfication for it, but what I'm asking you is a complete different, question, I personally cannot be forced to kill I would die first. however if you believed that your God wished you to kill fred over there because you were told he was your enemy, you would do it without question.there lies the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Answer that with a yes or no answer,
    just did.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    and read the chapters before and after.
    always do that, you get egg on you face if you dont, your point is.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why scrutinise the past with the present?
    thats rich your whole life evolves around a ancient book, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    And why ask me to do something that Jesus has rectifed
    thats a whole other debate, so we'll leave that for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    and I've already told you about that. You don't understand religion truly because if you did you'd have religion,
    or could it be I understand religion so well, that's why I'm not religious.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I don't tell rocket scientists to do their job, so in the same way don't tell me what religion is when I have it. Thank YOU.
    I'm not telling you anything, you can take it or leave it, it's my opinion, you are under no obligation to accept it.
    what you subjectively believe is entirely up to you, but I am entitled to my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    PS You judge all of religion on that one passage? Thats like me saying the Earth isn't flat using some archaiec explanation of the universe.
    what one passage is that, I dislike religions because religions kills, there no doubt about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Why don't you try reading the New Testament instead now and look at the protostant view? Then spend over a year analysing religion, thinking why such things were said and done, realise that Christ rectifies them and then say that.
    I spent nearly eight years pondering over the new testament and the Quran the BoM and the vedas.

    thinks you've got a cheek
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).

    "Love your neighbor as yourself" was part of the Old Testament law (Leviticus 19:18 ). But the Jewish teachers had often interpreted "neighbor" to include only people of their own nationality and religion. In Luke, the man who asked Jesus about the greatest of the commandments wanted justification for that interpretation, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In response, Jesus told the famous Parable of the Good Samaritan. A Jewish man had been beaten by robbers and left half dead beside the road. Two different religious leaders passed by but did nothing to help. Finally, a Samaritan man came by and took pity on the injured man. He gave him water, patched up his wounds, put him on his own donkey and took him to an inn where he could rest and recover:

    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
    Thats what I also follow.
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  62. #61  
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    Scifor Refugee wrote:
    There is a huge body of evidence (including academic studies that have been published in peer-reviewed journals) that most physical scientists are atheists, or at least very non-religious. So it’s not too surprsing that many of the people who come to a science forum are atheists.
    I have not heard this before. Are you able to point to some verification of this claim from a neutral source. I am sure this claim is both made and/or refuted by biased, agenda pushing sources. But I have never seen or heard of an actual study by a neutral souces which attempt to quantify the number of scientists who belong to which, if any, religious groups or lack thereof.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  63. #62  
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    Daytonturner, your definition of a "neutral source" means one that proves your viewpoint. And a biased source one that proves it wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Daytonturner, your definition of a "neutral source" means one that proves your viewpoint. And a biased source one that proves it wrong.
    To quote a Chinese proverb:
    "Those who are lost, never question a path, and a drowning man doubts not the shallows"
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    You say that because you suspect there is no such study undertaken by a neutral source which supports the idea that more scientists are atheists. Based on the pure numbers, the claim seems highy unlikely.

    What qualifies as being religious? What qualifies as being a scientist? What percentage of the population is religous? What percent of the population can be considered scientists? If there is a high percentage of both, it seems highly unlikely that most of the scientists could be non-religious.

    If 75 percent of the people were religious and 50 percent of them were scientists, even if every non-religious person were a scientist, that would only make up half of the scientific community.

    My sense is that a higher percentage of people in the U.S. claim to be religious and the the small group who do not consider themselves religious do not make up even 50 percent of the scientific community.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I have not heard this before. Are you able to point to some verification of this claim from a neutral source.
    Check the journal Nature 386, 435-436 (1997). They did a survey of the members of the National Academy of Science, and found that most were atheists. Nature is a major peer-reviewed academic journal, so you can be reasonably confident that there wasn't any shenanigans with the statistics.
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    What follows is mostly UNBIASED statistics. Most of which by the US census bureau. The length is because of that. Please read on.

    Oh, and scifor, next time there's a statistics war, let me handle it?

    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    If 75 percent of the people were religious and 50 percent of them were scientists, even if every non-religious person were a scientist, that would only make up half of the scientific community.
    True. Very true. Demographics should follow in every area of the population...unless there really is an impact when it comes to education. If that's true, you can't deny that the dumber you are, the more likely you are to believe in mainstream religion.

    Lets move on to statistics. There are very few websites which cite actual statistical studies on the matter. But here is one http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

    Unfortunately, they're around 10 years old. But given how the trend leans towards scientists rejecting it more and more as the years go by, we can safely assume it has continued this trend.

    But aside from this, allow me to break down my own interpretation of various sources. Official statistics included.

    In the united states, there are three hundred million people. The U.S. Census Bureau records 1,152,623 of them are in the school system ages 15-65+.

    Of the 1,152,623 recorded in the school system, only 212,267 have had some college, no degree.

    48,092 have an associates degree, occupational.
    43,530 have an associates degree, academic.
    186,669 have a bachelor's degree.
    65,921 have a master's degree.
    15,307 have a professional degree.
    12,444 have a doctoral degree.

    That adds up to 583,358 (including "some college, no degree).

    And these are just degrees. Unfortunately, as the government website says, "Public Law 94-521 prohibits us from asking a question on religious affiliation on a mandatory basis; therefore, the Bureau of the Census is not the source for information on religion". Pity. So we have to use a different official website.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._United_States

    I also used this website http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...tion/religion/

    Lets just do this simply. 80% of the United States is described as religious in some way. That is 240,000,000 out of 300,000,000. Most adults (18+). I honestly couldn't believe my eyes, so I had to go to a census to double check if there were that many adults. here. There are indeed about that many.

    Out of those, only half a million have received formal college education. So if 80% are religious, even if 30% of scientists are nonbelievers that would prove a SIGNIFICANT POINT. By demographics, a very small fraction of scientists should be nonbelievers.

    Going by this, then, the fact that the majority are reported nonbelievers is even more significant. Especially those involved in the biological sciences. But the first link I gave on the matter reports that around 70% of scientists in general are nonbelievers.

    More links:

    http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=4651

    That one says 45% disbelieve. However, I'm not being entirely fair, and neither are the statistics. Belief in god should vary IMMENSELY by vocation. Biologists probably have a lower, while another field might have a rate of 60%.

    http://www.livescience.com/strangene...tists_god.html

    An example is that link.

    Nevertheless, by demographics the nonbeliever population should be FAR smaller than even 45%. We're talking more like 10% or less. I can't stress this part most. Demographics don't lie. Educated people DO believe in mainstream religion FAR less, and educated people believe in a /personal god/ less.

    Be very careful you differentiate between mainstream belief and personal. Of the scientists that DO believe in a god, most DO NOT agree with any mainstream religion. This is, again, a mark of intelligence. But it's unfortunate I can't find any good statistics to back me up further.
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    Your statistics Jeremy are very orientated to the USA but I've had a look and the correlation is quite striking, then again its almost bound to be a logical presume anyway.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Of COURSE they're oriented to my own country. I've found it very easy to get US statistics, but nearly impossible to get ones from other countries. And, since the USA is one of the most religious countries that provides accurate statistics, it's the best target.

    So don't knock me for narrowing out my country. I did it for good reasons. :P
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  70. #69 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    I don't think there's any particular reason for it.

    1. There are scientists who keep faith and science separate. Sorta like not wanting to combine music with cooking.

    2. There are scientists who avoid the subject of, or declaration of, faith, because they can't lay their finger on a decision as to whether they believe or not. Fence sitters. Like me, kinda.

    3. There are also scientists who believe that science disproves faith.

    Out of the scientists who do or might call themselves atheists (2, 3) you'll probably find the majority call themselves atheists because they think the existence of science absolutely forbids the existence of faith. It's an easy hole to fall into.

    In the end, does it really matter? When yer performing an experiment, does your faith effect your procedures? If you're testing Newton's laws, dropping objects over a balcony, does the theist get different results than the atheist?
    Wolf
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  71. #70 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    I don't think there's any particular reason for it.

    1. There are scientists who keep faith and science separate. Sorta like not wanting to combine music with cooking.

    2. There are scientists who avoid the subject of, or declaration of, faith, because they can't lay their finger on a decision as to whether they believe or not. Fence sitters. Like me, kinda.

    3. There are also scientists who believe that science disproves faith.

    Out of the scientists who do or might call themselves atheists (2, 3) you'll probably find the majority call themselves atheists because they think the existence of science absolutely forbids the existence of faith. It's an easy hole to fall into.

    In the end, does it really matter? When yer performing an experiment, does your faith effect your procedures? If you're testing Newton's laws, dropping objects over a balcony, does the theist get different results than the atheist?
    Yea your right, makes you think though that is it all really worth bickering about religion and hence forth if it has no influence on science.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  72. #71 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Yea your right, makes you think though that is it all really worth bickering about religion and hence forth if it has no influence on science.
    As I've said a thousand times before, religion and faith are not one in the same, and can be quite separate.

    And yes, too much time has been spent bickering about religion and faith on science forums. Religion is man-made interpretation that will always be in opposition to/with something, science cannot prove or disprove faith, and science and faith are not mutually exclusive.

    But if this forum is any sort of proof, the same people will keep bringing this subject back from the necropolis of boring and useless topics for all eternity...


    I wonder how much energy the world would save if all the science vs religion/faith threads stopped? :?
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  73. #72 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Yea your right, makes you think though that is it all really worth bickering about religion and hence forth if it has no influence on science.
    As I've said a thousand times before, religion and faith are not one in the same, and can be quite separate.

    And yes, too much time has been spent bickering about religion and faith on science forums. Religion is man-made interpretation that will always be in opposition to/with something, science cannot prove or disprove faith, and science and faith are not mutually exclusive.

    But if this forum is any sort of proof, the same people will keep bringing this subject back from the necropolis of boring and useless topics for all eternity...


    I wonder how much energy the world would save if all the science vs religion/faith threads stopped? :?
    Maybe the time could be spent developing theories to better humankind, on the contrary though I don't think people are going to do that as long as there are those out there that like to make their own point and like to assert dominance over other people. Its a shame really though.
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    Well, a couple of quibbles with Jeremy's stats.

    He is correct that the current population of US is just over 300 million. Of those each age from up to age 25 makes up about 1.5 percent of the population, give or take a tenth of a percent. Thus the population under 25 would be about 36 percent, leaving 64 percent at 25 and over – a total of about 192 million.

    According to the U.S. Census bureau (at http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...on/007660.html):
    “In 2005, 85 percent of all adults 25 years or older reported they had completed at least high school. More than one-quarter (28 percent) of adults age 25 years and older had attained at least a bachelor's degree.”
    Thus 28 percent of the 192 million over 25 would give us a number of 53.76 million. Methinks, jeremy, or whoever he quoted, has misplaced a decimal with a claim of some 500,000 degreed people.

    Sheer numbers like 53.76 million do not tell us what those degrees are in – the science or the humanities. And when we are speaking of the sciences, are we speaking only of physical sciences or do we include the social sciences. At least the last link cited by jeremy from the August 2005 LiveScience article fleshes that out a little bit and I quote for those who were too lazy or disinterested to look it up:

    About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

    The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion.

    Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found.

    The opposite had been expected.

    Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists -- people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology -- said they do not believe in God. Only 31 percent of the social scientists do not believe.

    In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices.

    "Based on previous research, we thought that social scientists would be less likely to practice religion than natural scientists are, but our data showed just the opposite," Ecklund said.
    I bring all this up to point out that the implication of jeremy’s conclusion --

    Nevertheless, by demographics the nonbeliever population should be FAR smaller than even 45%. We're talking more like 10% or less. I can't stress this part most. Demographics don't lie. Educated people DO believe in mainstream religion FAR less, and educated people believe in a /personal god/ less.
    -- seems somewhat refuted by the actual statistics he sited. General population belief is 80 percent; overall science educated people is 60 percent. I would not call this “FAR” less. Plus, this does not tell us what percentage of those educated in the humanities are believers or non believers. Even so, I would agree with jeremy that there is a slightly higher percentage of non beleivers among educated people.

    But if 38 percent of natural scientists say the do not believe, that is hardly most of them. If only 31 percent of those in social sciences say they to not believe, that is hardly most of them. Most of them, by these statistics, are believers.

    This particular study, pointed to by jeremy hisseff, does not support the original speculation that most scientists (at least in the U.S.) are non-believers. According to this study, 62 percent of natural scientists are believers and 69 percent of social scientists are believers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Thus 28 percent of the 192 million over 25 would give us a number of 53.76 million. Methinks, jeremy, or whoever he quoted, has misplaced a decimal with a claim of some 500,000 degreed people.
    Jokes on you. I got the statistics from the Bureau of Census. I even let them do the adding for me. Besides, these minor number quarrels avoid the point. I merely used them for mental visualization.

    This particular study, pointed to by jeremy hisseff, does not support the original speculation that most scientists (at least in the U.S.) are non-believers. According to this study, 62 percent of natural scientists are believers and 69 percent of social scientists are believers.
    Um. What? You misunderstand entirely. Not only is the entire study not quoted (the total percentages are not given), but you aren't given any source or link for further investigation.

    All the study DOES reveal is that belief in god varies by occupation. The overall belief is still reported to be at most 40%. In fact the later quotation stated that they must "analyze" the study to decipher its real meaning. It said nothing of overall belief. Just in a few fields.

    Even so, lets play along with this. 62-69% still does not match demographics. By demographics, at least 80% should be believers. that 10% difference is still significant. Another point might be that theists prefer some fields over others, due to outlook from religious background. So a higher percentage clusters to one field rather than the other.

    Lastly, generalized statistics about the whole of science (recently, that is) come at less than 30%. The journal "Nature" is one of the statistics that reports this.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologe..._atheists.html

    Here is a well sourced article to prove my point. I finally happened upon it. It even gives a full description of various fields and disbelief. Finally. That's really what I wanted to begin with.
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    Well, even this last article cited by jeremy says just the opposite of what he seems to want it to say.

    Let me quote the chart he refers to:

    Disbelief in God by Academics Discipline %
    Physics 40.8
    Chemistry 26.6
    Biology 41.0
    Overall 37.6
    Sociology 34.0
    Economics 31.7
    Political Science 27.0
    Psychology 33.0
    Overall 31.2
    You will notice that the chart is labeled DISBELIEF in God. For those who do not understand English, what this means is that the chart shows the percentage of people who DO NOT believe in God. Disbelief = not believing. If you want to know what percentage of those people actually do believe in God, you must apply 3rd grade math and subtract those numbers from 100 to get the percent.

    Thus you would get this chart which I will put in quotes to match the one above although it is not really being quoted from anything.

    Belief in God by Academics Discipline %
    Physics 59.2
    Chemistry 73.4
    Biology 59.0
    Overall 62.4
    Sociology 66.0
    Economics 68.3
    Political Science 73.0
    Psychology 67.0
    Overall 68.8
    In spite of the fact that the article is headlined "Why Are Most Scientists Atheists If There Is Evidence for Belief in God?" it actually shows that most scientists are not atheists, but are believers. As an ex-newspaper person, I can say from experience that headlines are sometimes the worst indicators of what a story is about. As they say, "You can't tell a book by the cover."

    The point of the article is not that most scientists are atheists, but that more scientist are atheists than people in the population as a whole. It remains that about two-thirds of scientists believe in God.

    Just as a personal preference, I think I am more impressed that two thirds of an educated people believe something than I would be if 90 percent of uneducated believed something.

    My feeling is that most of the outspoken atheists on this forum are not scientists at all, but rather snot-nosed college brats who think their Biology 101 class proved to them that God does not exist in spite of the fact that 59 percent of biologists believe God exists.

    And, hey, how about them Chemists coming in with a 73.4 belief factor.

    Added by edit parting shot: And I was willing to believe that most scientists were atheists until jeremy supplied these studies.
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    It's a silly topic to begin with, but to try to glean anything meaningful from the numbers is pointless.

    For example, the number of American scientists who are religious may be 60% (compared to 80% of the general American public), but the relative number of fundamentalist scientists is far lower (ie well-educated religious individuals are much more likely to be moderate than religious individuals with less education.) Here is one reference to support this claim:

    ...nearly half of Americans adhere to the biblical view that God created humans "pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10 000 years." Forty-six percent of Americans agreed with this view of human origins in the 1991 Gallup poll. Only 5 percent of the scientists agreed.
    http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rnc...12_30_1899.asp
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    Edit: Free Radical, I attempted to make that same point (though not as clearly), but it was ignored anyway. And the fact educated belief disagrees with mainstream belief is proof that education is a major factor. The more educated you are the less likely you are to believe, and the less strongly.

    Numbers are very useful for correlations.

    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    The point of the article is not that most scientists are atheists, but that more scientist are atheists than people in the population as a whole. It remains that about two-thirds of scientists believe in God.
    Bingo. It disagrees with demographics. How many times do I have to put forth this point? I've given you a variety of studies based on a variety of sources. Each one gave something different.

    Take note, too, that the study on the website was done in 1969. Obviously a minor detail to you, now isn't it?

    I should also add that the study in 1969 STILL disagrees with demographics despite inferior education and evidence. Yeah. I think I've proven my point thoroughly now.

    Just as a personal preference, I think I am more impressed that two thirds of an educated people believe something than I would be if 90 percent of uneducated believed something.
    They did, at least. The more recent studies show that less and less belief in god is present. The study done by "Nature", for example. You're seemingly ignoring my point in favor of defending a straw man. This argument is about demographics. Not about who is majority.

    Going by every study done that I can find, the amount of nonbelieving scientists disagrees with what the demographics should be. This proves education plays a major role in what you believe.

    My feeling is that most of the outspoken atheists on this forum are not scientists at all, but rather snot-nosed college brats who think their Biology 101 class proved to them that God does not exist in spite of the fact that 59 percent of biologists believe God exists.
    In 1969 that's what 59% of biologists believed. You seem to miss the point that in the last 30+ years, biology has improved (As have other sciences) drastically.

    This website, though not too well formatted, proves that in recent years atheism has been a more popular choice for the sciences. http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Inte...20religion.htm

    So since you refuse to wrap your mind around time scale and demographics, chew on that for a while.

    And, hey, how about them Chemists coming in with a 73.4 belief factor.

    Added by edit parting shot: And I was willing to believe that most scientists were atheists until jeremy supplied these studies.
    Aaaand...? MY entire argument was about demographics. I couldn't care less what the majority of any body says. argumentum ad populum is still a fallacy.
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    Doggonit, jeremy, I wish you would read the stuff you are trying to quote. If for no other reason than to keep your integrity and credibility with some modicum of respect.

    Jeremy says:

    Take note, too, that the study on the website was done in 1969. Obviously a minor detail to you, now isn't it?

    I should also add that the study in 1969 STILL disagrees with demographics despite inferior education and evidence. Yeah. I think I've proven my point thoroughly now.
    This is shameful. You really need to read the article completely before you begin criticizing others for your oversight. The article you are siting, again located at http://www.godandscience.org/apologe..._atheists.html is not about a 1969 study.

    The introduction to the article says:

    In the early 20th century, studies showed that scientists were less likely than the general population to believe in the existence of God.1 A survey conducted in 1969 showed that 35% of scientists did not believe that God existed.2 In contrast, recent surveys on religious belief have shown that 90 percent of Americans believe in God and 40 percent attend a place of worship weekly.3 Is a lack of belief in God among scientists due to their higher intelligence and knowledge? A recent study was designed to look at differences in belief among scientists (and other academics) and what factors influence those beliefs.
    You will note, near the end of the paragraph it says, “A RECENT STUDY WAS DESIGNED. . .” It is that recent study (not the 1969 study) they are using for their analysis presented in this article.

    Jeremy also says:

    Going by every study done that I can find, the amount of nonbelieving scientists disagrees with what the demographics should be. This proves education plays a major role in what you believe.
    This is diametrically opposed to what the article that jeremy hisseff cited. The conclusion of that article says:

    It is true that scientists believe less in the existence of God than the general population of the United States. However, the recent study by Ecklund, and Scheitle reveals that the most important factors in belief were related to upbringing and family status, and not area of expertise. The fact that social scientists as well as those in the natural sciences expressed nearly the same disbelief in God suggests that rejection of God's existence is not a result of knowledge in any particular area of expertise. It is likely that those who have rejected religious morality (i.e., those who were cohabiting) wanted to justify their behavior by saying that there was very little truth in any religion. The conclusion by the authors:
    "Instead, particular demographic factors, such as age, marital status, and presence of children in the household, seem to explain some of the religious differences among academic scientists... Most important, respondents who were raised in religious homes, especially those raised in homes where religion was important are most likely to be religious at present."
    Perhaps it is my reading skill which have been eroded, but it seems to me that the article comes to just the opposite cause and effect conclusion. The reason educated people are less religious than uneducated people is because they start out that way before they are educated as a result of their “upbringing and family status.”

    Someplace in one of the articles (the one from Rice University, I think, using the same data as this article) the conclusion suggested that another factor is that the non-believing part of society is more likely to go on to higher education than the believing segment of society, a phenomenon brought on more by economic factors rather than religious factors.

    So they are saying that what you believe determines how much education you have not that how much education you have determines what you believe.

    Just for the fun of it, let me propose a hypothetical. Let us say that two-thirds of the educated people claimed that global warming is the direct and exclusive result of human influences on the environment. Now let us say that the other third of educated people and 90 percent of the uneducated claimed that global warming was just part of a natural cycle of the earth’s climatic cycles.

    Who do you believe and why? My feeling is that you would champion the two thirds of the educated group and would consider the other one third of the educated as out of synch with the majority. You would also totally discount the 90 percent of the uneducated who disagreed with the two thirds of the educated people.

    But in the equation at hand, you are championing the one-third of the educated community who disagree not only with the 90 percent of the uneducated but also with two-thirds of their peers. That is the exact opposite of what you would do in the hypothetical.

    And you do not see the inconsistency of that?

    Remember, the original post on this thread contended that most scientists were not believers. The attempts to verify that claim have utterly failed and instead, you claim victory by proving that educated people are less religious than less educated people, something no one has disputed.

    I claim the sun is hotter than the moon -- therefore, I win.
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    *bashes head on brick wall* No. Fuck this. I quit.
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  81. #80 Re: Why are there more atheist scientists than religious one 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am always astonished by the fact that there are a lot of non-religious people on this forum. And any religous people that come on only come on for about a week after babbling on at you. Why am I the only religious one on this forum? (Excuse me if there are any believers out there).
    I havent read all this but most scientists are default skeptics, they always have been i.e. why Einsteins early papers were mocked so on..

    Why paranormal other theories that might explain like Holographic Universe is debunked too

    Atheism is nothing more than skeptics paradox of forming religion based on those very beliefs or lack of them they oppose.


    Einstein , Newton were dreamers Carl Sagan was Skeptic, and one of the only notable ones at that , you tell me who has the better resume ?

    Science and Religion is the oldest rivarly in the book , yet theories such as Holographic Universe prove what mystics and other spiritual folk have been saying all along , its just that Science or those who make up most of it seem to care more about their egos than true knowledge.
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    33, not sure what your point was but I suggest you go through the thread and check out the links that jeremy provided. jeremy went to great lengths to verify that most scientists are non-believers only to put forth information showing that about two-thirds of scientists in the U.S. are believers.

    This would seem to indicate that religion and science are quite compatible. It is not the religious community which categorically rejects science. Rather it is that small segment of society comprised of atheists and agnostics which insists that science is not compatible with religion.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    It is not the religious community which categorically rejects science. Rather it is that small segment of society comprised of atheists and agnostics which insists that science is not compatible with religion.
    Excuse me. As the Resident Chief Agnostic on this forum I state now, as I have stated repeatedly in the past, religion and science are fully compatible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    It is not the religious community which categorically rejects science. Rather it is that small segment of society comprised of atheists and agnostics which insists that science is not compatible with religion.
    I disagree. Creationists especially reject science. Some fundamentalists go so far as to say that science is destroying religion.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Excuse me. As the Resident Chief Agnostic on this forum I state now, as I have stated repeatedly in the past, religion and science are fully compatible.
    Yeah, sure. Perhaps science and religion will be fully compatible when we have our own meeting places on every other corner, when our organizations are tax-exempt, when our slogans are printed on your money, when we elect a president (or any other leader) who understands science, when those idiotic little fish disappear, when organ donor cards no longer have a blank space for religion, when holidays commemorate great ideas instead of mythological beings, when newspapers devote a weekly section to atheism, when people stop saying "God bless you" every time we sneeze, when we open a motel room drawer and find a copy of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History Of Time", when pimple-faced kids stop coming to our houses on Saturday mornings to 'save' us, when....
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Excuse me. As the Resident Chief Agnostic on this forum I state now, as I have stated repeatedly in the past, religion and science are fully compatible.
    Yeah, sure. Perhaps science and religion will be fully compatible when we have our own meeting places on every other corner, when our organizations are tax-exempt, when our slogans are printed on your money, when we elect a president (or any other leader) who understands science, when those idiotic little fish disappear, when organ donor cards no longer have a blank space for religion, when holidays commemorate great ideas instead of mythological beings, when newspapers devote a weekly section to atheism, when people stop saying "God bless you" every time we sneeze, when we open a motel room drawer and find a copy of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History Of Time", when pimple-faced kids stop coming to our houses on Saturday mornings to 'save' us, when....
    Grow up. Without religion you'd have no society, no Christmas, no Easter, the list goes on and on. Do you celebrate Christmas? Seriously science and religion can work toghther as long as we RESPECT each others beliefs ok? If we don't respect each other we are not civilised.

    I hope you can understand this.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Grow up. Without religion you'd have no society, no Christmas, no Easter, the list goes on and on. Do you celebrate Christmas? Seriously science and religion can work toghther as long as we RESPECT each others beliefs ok? If we don't respect each other we are not civilised.

    I hope you can understand this.
    Yes, and I spewed coffee through my nose reading it. Thanks for the laugh.

    No, I don't respect belief in myths and superstitions, especially when those same beliefs are held to be some sort of reality.

    Do Muslims celebrate Christmas and Easter? Try thinking through your responses, first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Grow up. Without religion you'd have no society, no Christmas, no Easter, the list goes on and on. Do you celebrate Christmas? Seriously science and religion can work toghther as long as we RESPECT each others beliefs ok? If we don't respect each other we are not civilised.

    I hope you can understand this.
    Yes, and I spewed coffee through my nose reading it. Thanks for the laugh.

    No, I don't respect belief in myths and superstitions, especially when those same beliefs are held to be some sort of reality.

    Do Muslims celebrate Christmas and Easter? Try thinking through your responses, first.
    Muslims? Of course they don't, if you are not one why bring it up?

    Why can't you respect other beliefs even if they sound ridiculous? You don't have many close loving relationships to people do you?

    I'm right and you know it, no amout of red herrings will change this. Respect in this world is EVERYTHING, and if you expect respect off others make sure you give it out too. I respected you in your first post but now I do not, you'll have to re-earn it.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Muslims? Of course they don't, if you are not one why bring it up?
    I'll not answer that question on the grounds that you're not thinking.

    Why can't you respect other beliefs even if they sound ridiculous? You don't have many close loving relationships to people do you?
    It's quite hilarious to read your silly posts in that you think a godless lifestyle equates to living under a bridge.

    I'm right and you know it, no amout of red herrings will change this. Respect in this world is EVERYTHING, and if you expect respect off others make sure you give it out too. I respected you in your first post but now I do not, you'll have to re-earn it.
    Uh, I think I'm pretty much done with you as you are seriously intellectually handicapped.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Muslims? Of course they don't, if you are not one why bring it up?
    I'll not answer that question on the grounds that you're not thinking.

    Why can't you respect other beliefs even if they sound ridiculous? You don't have many close loving relationships to people do you?
    It's quite hilarious to read your silly posts in that you think a godless lifestyle equates to living under a bridge.

    I'm right and you know it, no amout of red herrings will change this. Respect in this world is EVERYTHING, and if you expect respect off others make sure you give it out too. I respected you in your first post but now I do not, you'll have to re-earn it.
    Uh, I think I'm pretty much done with you as you are seriously intellectually handicapped.
    There goes the atheist number one quote.

    Because I disagree with you I am intellectually disabled/handicapped/incapable etc etc. Please moderator I'd like this to be put forward as a warning from now on as it is occuring on a far to occasional basis.

    If you can't discuss things in an adult manner without blowing someone off by saying that they are stupid, please grow up.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Because I disagree with you I am intellectually disabled/handicapped/incapable etc etc.
    It has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement, you are simply unable to think. I'm sorry that your upset by that fact, although your emotional state does not preclude it.

    If you can't discuss things in an adult manner without blowing someone off by saying that they are stupid, please grow up.
    But, you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Because I disagree with you I am intellectually disabled/handicapped/incapable etc etc.
    It has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement, you are simply unable to think. I'm sorry that your upset by that fact, although your emotional state does not preclude it.

    If you can't discuss things in an adult manner without blowing someone off by saying that they are stupid, please grow up.
    But, you are.
    unable to think
    You did it again
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    If you guys want to argue do it by PM this forum is for debate, education and intelligent comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    33, not sure what your point was but I suggest you go through the thread and check out the links that jeremy provided. jeremy went to great lengths to verify that most scientists are non-believers only to put forth information showing that about two-thirds of scientists in the U.S. are believers.

    This would seem to indicate that religion and science are quite compatible. It is not the religious community which categorically rejects science. Rather it is that small segment of society comprised of atheists and agnostics which insists that science is not compatible with religion.
    May I ask what you define as religion ?

    If your saying that 2/3 of scientists are Christians can rationally explain or handle that idea or concept of their being god so forth then it I wouldnt be at liberty to disagree .
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Grow up. Without religion you'd have no society, no Christmas, no Easter, the list goes on and on. Do you celebrate Christmas? Seriously science and religion can work toghther as long as we RESPECT each others beliefs ok? If we don't respect each other we are not civilised.

    I hope you can understand this.
    Yes, and I spewed coffee through my nose reading it. Thanks for the laugh.

    No, I don't respect belief in myths and superstitions, especially when those same beliefs are held to be some sort of reality.

    Do Muslims celebrate Christmas and Easter? Try thinking through your responses, first.
    Muslims? Of course they don't, if you are not one why bring it up?

    Why can't you respect other beliefs even if they sound ridiculous? You don't have many close loving relationships to people do you?

    I'm right and you know it, no amout of red herrings will change this. Respect in this world is EVERYTHING, and if you expect respect off others make sure you give it out too. I respected you in your first post but now I do not, you'll have to re-earn it.
    God bless you ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    Grow up. Without religion you'd have no society, no Christmas, no Easter, the list goes on and on. Do you celebrate Christmas? Seriously science and religion can work toghther as long as we RESPECT each others beliefs ok? If we don't respect each other we are not civilised.

    I hope you can understand this.
    Yes, and I spewed coffee through my nose reading it. Thanks for the laugh.

    No, I don't respect belief in myths and superstitions, especially when those same beliefs are held to be some sort of reality.

    Do Muslims celebrate Christmas and Easter? Try thinking through your responses, first.
    Muslims? Of course they don't, if you are not one why bring it up?

    Why can't you respect other beliefs even if they sound ridiculous? You don't have many close loving relationships to people do you?

    I'm right and you know it, no amout of red herrings will change this. Respect in this world is EVERYTHING, and if you expect respect off others make sure you give it out too. I respected you in your first post but now I do not, you'll have to re-earn it.
    Agreed. (Q) has completely lost my respect. I'm sure it's of no value to him since I'm a theist, but I'm just pointing that out.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
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  97. #96  
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    Scifor proclaims:

    Creationists especially reject science. Some fundamentalists go so far as to say that science is destroying religion.
    I see this insane comment all over the place and it is so far in error that one would think intelligent, informed people would quit making it.

    There are two areas where religious people and science tend to come into conflict -- one relates to the origins of the universe and life and the other to explaining bio-diversity.

    Science does not know how the universe came into existence nor how life began. Yet, for some rediculous reason, some seem to think that this inability to explain it is somehow more conclusive than a religious explanation that merely claims there was some intellectual causitive. Why is this not more an example of science rejecting religion than it is an example of religion rejecting science?

    And when it comes to bio-diversity as explained via evolution, there are several different approaches -- Darwinism, neo_Darwinism and non-Darwinism. The science in this field is far from settled. There are two groups of people who think that evolution is a well-settled thing. First, are those have subscribed to one of the schools of thinking and completely rejected the others. Second, are those who are so inadequately informed on the subject that they do not realize the controversy remaining among the different schools of evolutionary thought.

    I have no idea why when people doubt and or question these explanations which are far from beingt fully expounded, iit can be suggest they have rejected the entirety of science.

    Religious people believe in rockets, relativity, genetics, chemistry, physics and probably just about every other thing science presents which does not attempt to eliminate God from the equation. This would include creationists.

    There are many religious people who adapt and accept aspects of the scientific explanations of origins of the universe and evolutionary processes in bio diversity. There are many in the religious community who would merely say, "Oh, that's how it happened? Well, that explains how God did it."

    The problem here is not that religion categorically rejects science. It is that atheistic people are willing to accept any Godless explanation of anything and claim that explanation eliminates God. It is these science oriented people who reject religion and then claim that religion has rejected science.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    It is that atheistic people are willing to accept any Godless explanation of anything and claim that explanation eliminates God. It is these science oriented people who reject religion and then claim that religion has rejected science.
    What?? Can you say that again?

    Man are you far off! We only accept NATURAL explanations, big difference. :wink: If God could be explained naturally I would happily accept it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Yet, for some rediculous reason, some seem to think that this inability to explain it is somehow more conclusive than a religious explanation that merely claims there was some intellectual causitive.
    The fool is not the one who does not know, it is the one who thinks he knows.

    There's no logical reason to think something intelligent created the universe/started life as the intelligence itself would require an explanation of its own because of its complexity. Science seeks to explain natural phenomenons in a logical, confirmable, coherent, factual and natural way. Science does not comment on the supernatural.
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    Obviosly does not accept the obvious:

    Science seeks to explain natural phenomenons in a logical, confirmable, coherent, factual and natural way.
    However, it fails miserably in doing so when it comes to explaining the origin of the universe and the beginning of life and in adequately explaining bio-diversity.

    What, by the way, is a "natural" explanation of emotions? And how do you provide a "natural" explanation for thoughts? What is more "natural" to humans than emotions and thoughts, neither of which we can actually explain?
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Obviosly does not accept the obvious:

    Science seeks to explain natural phenomenons in a logical, confirmable, coherent, factual and natural way.
    However, it fails miserably in doing so when it comes to explaining the origin of the universe and the beginning of life and in adequately explaining bio-diversity.

    What, by the way, is a "natural" explanation of emotions? And how do you provide a "natural" explanation for thoughts? What is more "natural" to humans than emotions and thoughts, neither of which we can actually explain?
    Just because science has not yet found all the answers to every question there ever was does not mean that it has "failed miserably" in anything. There are several theories currently being tested for the origin of life on this planet. As yet none have enough support to be declared true with any certainty, so none have. And I don't know how you think biodiversity is unexplained, you'll have to elaborate on that one.

    Emotions, by the way, are drivers. When you feel an emotion, it motivates you to achieve a certain goal. For example, when you feel the emotion of love towards your mate, that is motivating you to form a close bond and work well with your mate, which will help you both raise your offspring better. More successful offspring pass on your genes more successfully. Thus the emotion of love for your mate is a natural one whose origin is, ultimately, your genes.

    By thoughts, I assume you mean conscious thought. Conscious thought is the result of a more intelligent brain, and intelligence for humans has been a major factor in our success as a species. Thus it was advantageous for our ancestors to be more intelligent, and to be capable of conscious thought. Conscious thought is thus a natural result of an increased capacity for intelligence, whose origin is, ultimately, your genes.

    One thing I notice about theists on average, and people who are mistrustful of science on average, is the desire to think of humans and their characteristics as being somehow special, somehow separate and above other life. I can understand this feeling, as we are after all a vastly successful species, and no one likes to feel insignificant. However, as a scientist, you see humans and their qualities as merely one part of the natural world, that hold no intrinsic value that is greater or lesser than any other living organism. This viewpoint may contribute to the development of a more atheistic perspective.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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