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Thread: closed mindedness is a waste.

  1. #1 closed mindedness is a waste. 
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    I often told by the religious that I an atheist am closed-minded, either in conversation, or reading them, call atheists closed-minded on forums and such, however nothing could be further from the truth, I sure the religious don’t understand what closed-minded actually is.
    Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.
    For some strange reason the religious seem to think, they are open-minded, strange isn't it.
    just recently two elderly JW ladies knocked on my door, one lady handed me the watchtower, I said ladies I'm an atheist, and I have no believe in any of this, and handed it back, she said you've got to keep an open mind, I was tempted to, give her a piece of mind, for being so arrogant, as assume that I was closed mind all because I had no belief in her fantasy. Whereas I am open to all possibilities, and not single mindedly following one particular deity out of thousands, and thousands, it riles me.
    Until now I have never called a religious person closed or single minded.
    I wish they would think about what they're saying, but that would be too much to ask I think.

    do you find either atheists or theist closed minded if so please elaborate, as I sincerely believe I'm right in my view on this, but also have a keen interest to see if I'm wrong.

    thanks
    pavlos


    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    I think it's in a response to atheists calling them closed-minded, deluded bigots.


    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  4. #3 Re: closed mindedness is a waste. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.

    I said ladies I'm an atheist, and I have no believe in any of this, and handed it back
    By your own definition, you were acting in a closed-minded manner. You refused to look at the material offered.

    You might say that you've had discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses before; studied the material and compared it against opposing views and reached your own conclusion.

    From their viewpoint however, they have no way of knowing this. They might assume (as many do) that they're the very first Jehovah's Witnesses you've ever spoken to. Yet you're turning them away without allowing them to make their argument. From their perspective then, you were closed-minded.

    From your perspective: Perhaps this particular pair happens to have evidence which proves the existence of god conclusively. Yet you're turning them away before reviewing their material. You have no way of knowing whether or not they have new information to provide. There may be something in there which would require you to review your belief system.

    However, if any indisputable evidence of god managed to surface, I severely doubt the world's only exposure to it would be from a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I think people are far too worried about this whole "open mindedness" thing. I have no problem turning away a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman without hearing about his amazing new product. And I have no problem turning away a door-to-door religious salesman either. I don't have time.

    I heard your other friend's argument and I've read your book. I have more reliable sources of information, so I'm not going to hear what you have to say and don't knock on my door again. Closed mindedness, when used appropriately, is a great time saving device.
    "First we build the tools, then they build us" - Marshall McLuhan.
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    I think Pavlos may generalizing a little too much here. Many people are close minded on some issues and very open minded on other issues.

    When you (the general you, not Pavols specifically) think someone else is closed minded because he refuses to change his mind to your way of thinking, I suspect it is the you who is really closed minded.

    Open mindedness does not mean that you have not made up your mind about an issue nor does it mean that you must change your mind about something.

    If your idea of openmindedness is that one must be prepared to change his mind, Pavlos' experience with the JW ladies would suggest he is less than openminded about listening to their "fairy tales." In fact, calling their religion a fairy tale pretty much indicates Pavlos' closed mind in that he is unwilling to listen, which, by his own definition is what close mindedness is about.

    To be fair, I usually cut JWs short, too, because my mind is also closed to them. However, it is not that I have shut them off without knowing what they teach.

    I would say one is close minded if one refuses to learn what a different view has to say. If you have heard their side and don't agree, that is not being close minded.

    For both Pavlos and me, I think we already pretty much know what JWs are going to say and are pretty sure we will not be aligning ourselves with their thinking.

    Still, it is always possible that someone, hearing a certain view enough times will swing over to that way of thinking.

    I can tell you that not one of the Chistians who posts here has always been a Christian. Every one of us was at one time a non-believing heathen or pagan.

    So, even as atheist and agostics, we were open minded to the Christian message. And many of us had heard that message many times before it struck home that we had gone our own way and were enemies of the living God which would subject us to His wrath, but that He had provided a way of excape from His wrath if one will only trust that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ saves one from God's wrath and opens the way to God's mercy instead.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    you should have responded "i am keeping an open mind, and yours is not the only deity"
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    They would not have known what a "deity" is.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    For both Pavlos and me, I think we already pretty much know what JWs are going to say and are pretty sure we will not be aligning ourselves with their thinking.

    Still, it is always possible that someone, hearing a certain view enough times will swing over to that way of thinking.
    this never is the case with atheists, once they revert back to normality, they most certainly dont get fooled again.
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I can tell you that not one of the Chistians who posts here has always been a Christian. Every one of us was at one time a non-believing heathen or pagan.
    well of course you were, when you were born.

    we nearly all get indoctrinated from birth, so unless you are one of the extremely rare few who come to religion from having absolutely no knowledge of it.
    The only time someone turns to religion, from having no knowledge is when something traumatic happens in their lives.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  9. #8  
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    A theist is someone who has decided, despite the preponderance of evidence, and contrary to logic, that a deity exists. Furthermore, a religion, any religion, is not subject to revision, but holds that it's tenets are, have been, and always will be the absolute truth. Also, a person who subscribes to one religion must necessarily reject any other religion (show me a Christian who follows Hindu rituals, or vice versa). If all of that is not close mindedness, I don't know what is.

    And why is it that you never get an Atheist knocking on your door espousing atheism? Seems to me like the holy are much more intent on disseminating their views. I too get an occasional JW at my door and, although I haven't done this, I would love to take their literature and in return hand them a pamphlet on Atheism. In fact, give them a bunch of Atheism pamphlets and ask them to hand them out with their own, since they're making the rounds anyway and it would save you some work.


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  10. #9 Re: closed mindedness is a waste. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    she said you've got to keep an open mind
    That is, in my opinion, the perfect opportunity to launch into a discussion about other cults and their gods, and an opportunity to turn the tables, so to speak, and begin asking them why they don't acknowledge the existence of those other gods, and why their god or their cult is any better.

    JW's, for the most part, have very little understanding of other religions, even their own for that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    For both Pavlos and me, I think we already pretty much know what JWs are going to say and are pretty sure we will not be aligning ourselves with their thinking.

    Still, it is always possible that someone, hearing a certain view enough times will swing over to that way of thinking.
    this never is the case with atheists, once they revert back to normality, they most certainly dont get fooled again.
    How do you know this?

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I can tell you that not one of the Chistians who posts here has always been a Christian. Every one of us was at one time a non-believing heathen or pagan.
    well of course you were, when you were born.

    we nearly all get indoctrinated from birth, so unless you are one of the extremely rare few who come to religion from having absolutely no knowledge of it.
    The only time someone turns to religion, from having no knowledge is when something traumatic happens in their lives.
    How do you know this?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  12. #11  
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    Geezer claimed:

    The only time someone turns to religion, from having no knowledge is when something traumatic happens in their lives.
    My experience is that most people turn to Jesus when they realize that they have gone their own way and have become alienated from God and that, as a result, they will face God's wrath when they die. They choose, rather, to trust in Jesus for salvation and thereby receive Gods mercy rather than His wrath.

    Unfortunately, many will reach that traumatic time of judgement after it is too late to qualify for God's mercy.

    I am not sure how anyone could turn to religion during tramatic times if they no knowledge of religion. The only way you could turn to Jesus, for whatever reason, would be to have learned about Him.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    For both Pavlos and me, I think we already pretty much know what JWs are going to say and are pretty sure we will not be aligning ourselves with their thinking.

    Still, it is always possible that someone, hearing a certain view enough times will swing over to that way of thinking.
    this never is the case with atheists, once they revert back to normality, they most certainly dont get fooled again.
    How do you know this?
    common sense, when you've took several years to deprogram yourself from religion, the only reasons you would return to it is if you had a knock on the head.
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I can tell you that not one of the Chistians who posts here has always been a Christian. Every one of us was at one time a non-believing heathen or pagan.
    well of course you were, when you were born.

    we nearly all get indoctrinated from birth, so unless you are one of the extremely rare few who come to religion from having absolutely no knowledge of it.
    The only time someone turns to religion, from having no knowledge is when something traumatic happens in their lives.
    How do you know this?
    what other reason can there be to accept the irrational, god and religion are one big comfort blanket for the weak willed.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    A theist is someone who has decided, despite the preponderance of evidence, and contrary to logic, that a deity exists. Furthermore, a religion, any religion, is not subject to revision, but holds that it's tenets are, have been, and always will be the absolute truth. Also, a person who subscribes to one religion must necessarily reject any other religion (show me a Christian who follows Hindu rituals, or vice versa). If all of that is not close mindedness, I don't know what is.

    And why is it that you never get an Atheist knocking on your door espousing atheism? Seems to me like the holy are much more intent on disseminating their views. I too get an occasional JW at my door and, although I haven't done this, I would love to take their literature and in return hand them a pamphlet on Atheism. In fact, give them a bunch of Atheism pamphlets and ask them to hand them out with their own, since they're making the rounds anyway and it would save you some work.


    Ron
    oh, atheists are usually preoccupied with science and all that, while religious people simply have nothing better to do.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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    I believe an athiest is the far far more open minded way to go compared to theism, athiests views of the world are altered by new discovers/theorys all the time, they have to be science is such a fluid experience, some ideas are accepted, some rebuked, yes of course some scientists will stick to a certain view point on certain theorys and blinkered at times but as a whole its totally open

    Look at all the major organised religions, they all answer to a "perfect book", that shouldn't be questioned, no matter what evidence is placed before them, because whats the alternative? their whole belief system is negated, that is closed mindiness to perfection

    I think their argument of someone being closed minded if they dont attempt to understand and accept someone elses theology is a tad controlling and the kind of thing usually seen in playgrounds
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    How do you know this?
    How do you know this?
    your replies to geeser, interested me so I started a poll.
    to find out for sure with the few we have on this forum so far geesers been right on all counts.
    what surprises more is it wasn't obvious to you, why?
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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    I consider myself very open minded. I am constantly questioning and reevaluating what I believe. Sure there are people on everyside of the fence that are closed minded. Religious, Athiest, Christian, etc etc etc... It's not difficult to "shoot holes" in the Jehovah's witnesses doctrine using their own literature. This is the case with many religions as religion is usually the enemy. Religion will cause more people to bust the gates of hell wide open than athiesm will.

    The reason I found this site was to research evolution and the aspects of development since the beginning, the big bang or whatever as there are several secular theories (according to popular science). I always consider each point and am trying to get the "whole picture" or as much as possible in my head so that I might be able to evaluate and be sure that I am right in my belief. That is why I stated from the beginning I Couldbewrong...

    Generalizations are also usually incorrect and should probably be avoided.
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    For both Pavlos and me, I think we already pretty much know what JWs are going to say and are pretty sure we will not be aligning ourselves with their thinking.

    Still, it is always possible that someone, hearing a certain view enough times will swing over to that way of thinking.
    this never is the case with atheists, once they revert back to normality, they most certainly dont get fooled again.
    How do you know this?
    common sense, when you've took several years to deprogram yourself from religion, the only reasons you would return to it is if you had a knock on the head.
    Your common sense, not mine. Who are you, the atheist spokesman? I thought atheists were "diverse in their thoughts". In fact, right now I can give you one example of someone who doesn't fit into your category.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I can tell you that not one of the Chistians who posts here has always been a Christian. Every one of us was at one time a non-believing heathen or pagan.
    well of course you were, when you were born.

    we nearly all get indoctrinated from birth, so unless you are one of the extremely rare few who come to religion from having absolutely no knowledge of it.
    The only time someone turns to religion, from having no knowledge is when something traumatic happens in their lives.
    How do you know this?
    what other reason can there be to accept the irrational, god and religion are one big comfort blanket for the weak willed.
    Argument from ignorance.

    I can provide at least one example that doesn't fit into your category.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Your common sense, not mine. Who are you, the atheist spokesman? I thought atheists were "diverse in their thoughts". In fact, right now I can give you one example of someone who doesn't fit into your category.

    I can provide at least one example that doesn't fit into your category.
    As I said I set up a poll, here http://www.thescienceforum.com/A-pol...ere.-9015t.php,
    I would however personally be interested as to who you might have that was indoctrinated as a child became rational[atheist)t and now has gone back to the irrational and please dont say Flew.

    and also who you may have, who has had no knowledge of religion, but turnt to religion without any kind of trauma in their lives, any kind of prompting or pressure from his peers.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    I would however personally be interested as to who you might have that was indoctrinated as a child became rational[atheist)t and now has gone back to the irrational and please dont say Flew.

    and also who you may have, who has had no knowledge of religion, but turnt to religion without any kind of trauma in their lives, any kind of prompting or pressure from his peers.
    People with no knowledge of religion? You might as well interview a baby.

    I lost my best friends to religion. I guess that could be considered traumatic in a sense. They had trouble conceiving for so long that it eventually took its toll on them. One day they were introduced to a pastor from a local offshoot religious sect here where I live. Needless to say they were soon expecting a child. They became totally religious after that. Miracle? God at work? Coincidence? Trauma? How easy was it for them to believe in God after that?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Your common sense, not mine. Who are you, the atheist spokesman? I thought atheists were "diverse in their thoughts". In fact, right now I can give you one example of someone who doesn't fit into your category.

    I can provide at least one example that doesn't fit into your category.
    As I said I set up a poll, here http://www.thescienceforum.com/A-pol...ere.-9015t.php,
    I would however personally be interested as to who you might have that was indoctrinated as a child became rational[atheist)t and now has gone back to the irrational and please dont say Flew.
    Nobody famous. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/fo...?topic=16475.0

    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    and also who you may have, who has had no knowledge of religion, but turnt to religion without any kind of trauma in their lives, any kind of prompting or pressure from his peers.
    Like zinjanthropos hinted at, it's highly unlikely that anyone exists with no knowledge of religion.

    However there are people who were apathetic towards religion so as to be ignorant of the doctrine itself (though not the existence thereof), myself included. For a good amount of my life, I've been non-religious. I am virtually non-religious now (though I identify with Christianity), but not non-theistic.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Your common sense, not mine. Who are you, the atheist spokesman? I thought atheists were "diverse in their thoughts". In fact, right now I can give you one example of someone who doesn't fit into your category.

    I can provide at least one example that doesn't fit into your category.
    As I said I set up a poll, here http://www.thescienceforum.com/A-pol...ere.-9015t.php,
    I would however personally be interested as to who you might have that was indoctrinated as a child became rational[atheist)t and now has gone back to the irrational and please dont say Flew.
    Nobody famous. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/fo...?topic=16475.0
    dude thats just some guy who says he's atheist, he is just a non-believer like me.
    atheists seem to have more concerns about the problems religion causes.
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    and also who you may have, who has had no knowledge of religion, but turnt to religion without any kind of trauma in their lives, any kind of prompting or pressure from his peers.
    Like zinjanthropos hinted at, it's highly unlikely that anyone exists with no knowledge of religion.

    However there are people who were apathetic towards religion so as to be ignorant of the doctrine itself (though not the existence thereof), myself included. For a good amount of my life, I've been non-religious. I am virtually non-religious now (though I identify with Christianity), but not non-theistic.
    you could say that about me, but I'm not ignorant of it. just dont give a dam, but it would take a lot of talking a thinking for me to maybe follow a religion, I'm happier living my life as I am.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by furry of relativity
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Your common sense, not mine. Who are you, the atheist spokesman? I thought atheists were "diverse in their thoughts". In fact, right now I can give you one example of someone who doesn't fit into your category.

    I can provide at least one example that doesn't fit into your category.
    As I said I set up a poll, here http://www.thescienceforum.com/A-pol...ere.-9015t.php,
    I would however personally be interested as to who you might have that was indoctrinated as a child became rational[atheist)t and now has gone back to the irrational and please dont say Flew.
    Nobody famous. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/fo...?topic=16475.0
    dude thats just some guy who says he's atheist, he is just a non-believer like me.
    Who, firewick? He's a fundie alright.... delusion and all. Or are you saying he was an old non-believer (not an atheist)?

    Quote Originally Posted by furry of relativity
    atheists seem to have more concerns about the problems religion causes.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by furry of relativity
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    and also who you may have, who has had no knowledge of religion, but turnt to religion without any kind of trauma in their lives, any kind of prompting or pressure from his peers.
    Like zinjanthropos hinted at, it's highly unlikely that anyone exists with no knowledge of religion.

    However there are people who were apathetic towards religion so as to be ignorant of the doctrine itself (though not the existence thereof), myself included. For a good amount of my life, I've been non-religious. I am virtually non-religious now (though I identify with Christianity), but not non-theistic.
    you could say that about me, but I'm not ignorant of it. just dont give a dam, but it would take a lot of talking a thinking for me to maybe follow a religion, I'm happier living my life as I am.
    It didn't take me a lot of talking, but it sure took a lot of thinking.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

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