Thread: Why Doesn.t God Eliminate All Evil?

Why doesn't God eliminate all evil?

This is a question I see raised here quite often. Sometimes it is not exactly a question but rather a statement that a "good" God would not allow evil to exist. And, therefore, God does not exist.

If God were going to get rid of all evil, one of the first issues is who gets to decide what is evil. However, if God is the one to eliminate evil, it would seem that He is the One who gets to decide.

I suppose if I were going to draw the line, I would do so just as would anyone else would do. I would draw the line just a little below where I am on the scale between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I and those less evil than me would survive while those more evil than me would be eradicated.

Ruling that out as a reasonable standard and assuming that God were going to eliminate evil and He is the One to draw the line, it would be prudent to know where that line is in order that one not fall below it and risk being eliminated as evil.

Now, if the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, were the God who was doing that, we do have some lines drawn in the Bible. The 10 Commandments would be a starting point.

So, have you ever told a lie? Even a little one? If so, you have violated one of the commandments -- the one about bearing false witness.

Have you ever stolen anything? Even a little item when you were young? If so, you have violated the commandment that you should not steal.

Just based on those two commandments representing acts which God considers evil, I suspect most honest readers of this forum would have to admit they have done one or both of those things and are, therefore, guilty of evil doing in God's eyes.

It becomes obvious that if God were to eliminate all evil, it would be necessary for Him to eliminate all humanity. Thus, the existence of evil does not show that God does not exist.

The question becomes not whether a good God allows evil to exist, but rather why would a good God allow evil to exist?

I think one obvious reason is that He does not want to destroy mankind. It is more important to God that mankind exist on earth than that evil be eliminated on earth. In one sense, human evil is ultimately eradicated piece by piece in that all humans die.

Meanwhile, God does have a place where evil does not exist and evil is not allowed to enter there. That leads to the question is how do humans, who are evil under God's standards, gain entrance into that place where evil does not exist and cannot enter?

Well, the same God who has declared them evil can also declare them righteous and has provided a way for that to happen. He sent an aspect of his own personality, Jesus, to dwell in human form and to live a perfect human life in total subjection to the will of God. He was, however, put to death although He was the only man who ever lived who did not deserve to die for being evil. In dying, he became the perfect sacrifice (an unblemished lamb) and took upon himself the penalty for all the evil ever committed. He then proved his power over death and evil and conquered both by being resurrected. Those who place their trust and faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are declared righteous before God.

It is not that God declares them innocent. It is more as if you were in court and the judge declares you guilty and levies a fine, but someone else pays the fine for you.

So before you insist that God prove himself by eliminating all evil, consider the consequences that act would render upon your own existence.

he's busy, there's an election coming up!


(has told me to say that)

So why then Dayton, did God create men with evil in their hearts?

Mankind wasn't created with evil in their hearts. We were created and given the ability to choose to obey God or Not. Sin (evildoing) is doing something God doesn't want us to do. Sin entered into mankind when we chose to disobey God.

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

Mankind wasn't created with evil in their hearts. We were created and given the ability to choose to obey God or Not. Sin (evildoing) is doing something God doesn't want us to do. Sin entered into mankind when we chose to disobey God.

If homo Sapiens Sapiens lived for 130,000 years, for 124,000 years Heaven waited to tell us what God wanted of us? And then, he told us in the most desolate and least literate corner of the world when even now, 2000/6000 years afterwards it has not yet reached over the entire globe?

How incredible do you need your a belief system to be before you need faith?

Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

Mankind wasn't created with evil in their hearts. We were created and given the ability to choose to obey God or Not. Sin (evildoing) is doing something God doesn't want us to do. Sin entered into mankind when we chose to disobey God.

If homo Sapiens Sapiens lived for 130,000 years, for 124,000 years Heaven waited to tell us what God wanted of us? And then, he told us in the most desolate and least literate corner of the world when even now, 2000/6000 years afterwards it has not yet reached over the entire globe?

How incredible do you need your a belief system to be before you need faith?

You were created a single moment ago.

That is in terms of 'Gods' perception of time.

Just as a baby has to mature, so did humanity.

Why tell a baby how to chew food when all it can do is suckle.

Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis

If homo Sapiens Sapiens lived for 130,000 years, for 124,000 years Heaven waited to tell us what God wanted of us? And then, he told us in the most desolate and least literate corner of the world when even now, 2000/6000 years afterwards it has not yet reached over the entire globe?

How incredible do you need your a belief system to be before you need faith?

Pardon? Can you rephrase that?

God (according to the Bible) has always told us what he expects of us. At no point in the history of man was there a time when people had no way to be forgiven. The crux of the matter is wheather or not a person was willing to do what it takes for salvation from the debt of sin.

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

Mankind wasn't created with evil in their hearts. We were created and given the ability to choose to obey God or Not. Sin (evildoing) is doing something God doesn't want us to do. Sin entered into mankind when we chose to disobey God.

you have been shown this to be wrong, do we have to go through all again.
god brought sin in, god wanted sin, mankind did not chose to sin, if you read the bible this is the only conclusion you can make, but I suppose to come to the correct conclusion, you would have to forego your belief in god and jesus. that would be a big ask for you believers.

Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity

Why tell a baby how to chew food when all it can do is suckle.

you dont teach a baby to chew it a natural ability.
wtf are you talking about.

Originally Posted by geezer

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

Mankind wasn't created with evil in their hearts. We were created and given the ability to choose to obey God or Not. Sin (evildoing) is doing something God doesn't want us to do. Sin entered into mankind when we chose to disobey God.

you have been shown this to be wrong, do we have to go through all again.
god brought sin in, god wanted sin, mankind did not chose to sin, if you read the bible this is the only conclusion you can make, but I suppose to come to the correct conclusion, you would have to forego your belief in god and jesus. that would be a big ask for you believers.

No, many people took a stance saying this was wrong but I was never inclined to agree. I don't believe the proofs were adequate or the logic sound. Just because someone vehemently took a stand doesn't mean I have to agree with them, just as you do not have to agree with me. (I still love you though : P)

Originally Posted by geezer

you have been shown this to be wrong, do we have to go through all again.
god brought sin in, god wanted sin, mankind did not chose to sin, if you read the bible this is the only conclusion you can make

I guess we can try again if you want. I don't believe this logic or belief structure has a "leg to stand on"

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Why doesn't God eliminate all evil?

because evil is what god wants, according to your bible.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

This is a question I see raised here quite often. Sometimes it is not exactly a question but rather a statement that a "good" God would not allow evil to exist. And, therefore, God does not exist.

gods dont exist, but if they did, and they were supposedly loving then evil would not exist.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

If God were going to get rid of all evil, one of the first issues is who gets to decide what is evil.

god would, it's supposedly an all powerful creature.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Ruling that out as a reasonable standard and assuming that God were going to eliminate evil and He is the One to draw the line, it would be prudent to know where that line is in order that one not fall below it and risk being eliminated as evil.

why! evils evil and goods good, you cant have little bits, this is a little bit evil, this is a little bit good, they're either one or the other.

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

No, many people took a stance saying this was wrong but I was never inclined to agree.

it's irrelevant whether you disagree, as far I know from reading the bible God caused evil and required evil to be.
that is clearly indicated in the Adam and Eve story and it's clearly stated in a few scriptures, god wants evil, and God is evil, he says so himself.

Originally Posted by couldbewrong

I don't believe the proofs were adequate or the logic sound.

so the bible is not a good enough source for you, ok.

He's on Heavens science forum and hasn't bothered checking his emails.

*yawn*
This question is so old and washed out. I'm surprised that people are still brining it up/using it as an argument.

The way ive always seen it, is, God doesn't exist, else innocent children wouldn't die a slow death of painful illnesses like cancer, If he does exist after that, then when i die, im kicking him right between the legs

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Why doesn't God eliminate all evil?

Meanwhile, God does have a place where evil does not exist and evil is not allowed to enter there.

Didn't God and Satan duke it out in Heaven? Didn't an angel uprising take place there? Saying evil isn't allowed doesn't make sense because it implies someone or something evil could very well enter. Better to say evil doesn't exist in Heaven but what do I know. No I'd have to say nothing is safe from evil and that includes Heaven.

Heaven seems to be a magic place where even the most despicable can get in. What happens to those really bad guys when they are allowed in? Do they suddenly become pure good? Evil is left outside at the gates I guess.

If God can make a place where no evil exists and that place is where He wants us all to end up, then why is there evil in the first place?

At least two posts above claim that God brought evil into the world or God wanted evil to exist and claim Bible support for that position. You need Bible versus which support such claims.

There is a verse in which God says, "I create evil," but the context of the passage and a potential meanings of the word translated "create" suggests that the passage could also be translated as, "I define evil."

But if one wishes to claim the Bible says something, in order to have any credibility, the claim must be supported by scripture.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

But if one wishes to claim the Bible says something, in order to have any credibility, the claim must be supported by scripture.

Ok, then God created evil. If He says He did then He did.

Nevermind how you want it interpretted or if it was mistranslated. If you believe the Bible to be God's word then you must believe that is the way He intended it. There is no question then, that God is responsible for evil. He's responsible for everything else and not this!

what about the people who are both evil/good.
sorta people in the grayzone.
people who helps thousands by murdering thousands.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

At least two posts above claim that God brought evil into the world or God wanted evil to exist and claim Bible support for that position. You need Bible versus which support such claims.

There is a verse in which God says, "I create evil," but the context of the passage and a potential meanings of the word translated "create" suggests that the passage could also be translated as, "I define evil."

But if one wishes to claim the Bible says something, in order to have any credibility, the claim must be supported by scripture.

Lets put the Adam and Eve BS aside for now, (which proves God wants evil)
and lets just look at the scriptures shall we.
KJV 2 Kings 6:33"And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
KJV Isaiah 45:7"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
KJV Amos3:6"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it"

If God is all good, why does order so many atrocities and perform such heinous acts, of the mass slaughter of babies, humankind etc...?

God's Commands, like the following are quite common: KJV 1 Samuel 15:3"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." there is also Josh.6:21; 1Sam.6:19; Jer.13:14; Deut.2:30-35, 7:1-2, 7:16; God would even make people act indifferent to there intended victims to cause them to attack or ignore the problem"KJV Exod 4:21"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

If such unfairs or evil aggression isn't enough, God could just kill his own at whim, KJV Exod4:24"And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him."
25: Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me." God was waiting to kill moses for no reason. the circumcision of moses son seem to pacifie god, it is clear he is evil personified.
and try to explain away why God commands his people to kill their neighbours, dearest friends, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, even their children.
there is close to 900 scriptures where God orders the killing/killings (preaches evil) or kills them himself (does evil).
from this you can make no other conclusion, then God is evil.
and this is only the bible. nearly the same can be said of the Qu'ran, the book of mormon, etc...

There is one God who says creation and destruction is him. And I believe it.

God did not create evil, nor evil exist. It is we (because God permit so) doing the evil things. He paid so much for it, he lost his greatest creation, even his only son. Perhaps in anticipation to find good sole he is looking for.

Originally Posted by sak

There is one God who says creation and destruction is him. And I believe it.

so he's destructive/evil.

Originally Posted by sak

God did not create evil, nor evil exist.

then how did we get it.

Originally Posted by sak

It is we (because God permit so) doing the evil things.

so god lets us do evil does he like it or something.

Originally Posted by sak

He paid so much for it, he lost his greatest creation, even his only son.

did he! and where is his son now.

Originally Posted by sak

God did not create evil, nor evil exist. It is we (because God permit so) doing the evil things. He paid so much for it, he lost his greatest creation, even his only son. Perhaps in anticipation to find good sole he is looking for.

Therefore God was unaware that man would be capable of evil. I thought he was meant to be omniscient.

Let's define our terms here. What is evil?

I'd say that's relative to the individual. Evil for me may not be evil for you.

The only thing that you could possibly find even ground on is pain/discomfort. So it really should be the Problem of Discomfort, not the Problem of Evil.

Even then, what discomforts you may not discomfort me, but I think we can all agree that pain is not pleasurable (well, you still have those masochists).

There are several things that the proponents of the PoE don't consider, including the above observations, the fact that pleasure cannot exist without discomfort, and the idea of God's omniscience (though they often cite the creation of Satan ought to have been precluded by God's omniscience, but this doesn't apply once we step out of Christian mythology).

God can't eliminate evil because it keeps coming back as a redundant thread topic...

Did God Create?
Is God Evil?
Right/Wrong?
If God Clicked Start

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The way ive always seen it, is, God doesn't exist, else innocent children wouldn't die a slow death of painful illnesses like cancer, If he does exist after that, then when i die, im kicking him right between the legs

Because we can't see the good in this, I really don't see it either, hardly 0.00001% good in that happening, God does know why things happen and would not interfere for some reason that our minds could not comphrehend. Have you see the 'Godfella's' episode of Futurama? It pretty much explains the answer to the original question in a comical (sort of), but understanding way.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by sak

God did not create evil, nor evil exist. It is we (because God permit so) doing the evil things. He paid so much for it, he lost his greatest creation, even his only son. Perhaps in anticipation to find good sole he is looking for.

Therefore God was unaware that man would be capable of evil. I thought he was meant to be omniscient.

Ey? What are you on about Ophiolite? Don't listen to our humanly interperetation of what we possiblly could not understand. Remember Lucifer and others fought against God? In God's eyes Satan may not be evil and may be forgiven one day, so there is no evil. I don't know what I'm going on about here it just seems to explains 'Sak's' paradoxical explanation (no offense Sak).

Remember Sak, having faith and deeds means forgiving all. Even Satan. Do not let personal feelings get in the way of preaching the gospel. That is why so many disbeleive toady because others have mixed in their own beleifs and twisted the original text.

Remember Lucifer and others fought against God?

I always thought of this as a funny concept. How exactly do they fight each other? With swords, or a board game with real people, where they have to compete for their souls? Or is it more like DragonBallZ?

Seriously though, from a religious point of view, god created evil as the questions to the test that you have to complete for entrance into heaven. You have to get 100% for the test though, but you can ask the Examiner to fill them in for you, since he came into the world with all the questions already filled in for him. If happen to not have known about this test, you will burn in hell for being unlucky.

creation of universe -5 minutes

God : i know, creating a universe that will lead to intelligent life might be a nifty idea

creation of universe -0.1 seconds

God : OK here goes, let's press the start button

creation of universe + 0.1 seconds

God : oh crap, i've forgot to add common sense - how do i stop this thing ?

Sciphil said:

I'd say that's relative to the individual. Evil for me may not be evil for you.

This is the same as saying there is no such thing as evil. Someplace someone is able to justify and declare as not evil any act that might be committed. Some are able to justify rape and murder, crimes most of us consider evil.

Evil in so far as God would be concerned is what God says evil is. On that stage, men do not have the option to declare as good something that God has called evil.

Geezer quotes the Bible:

KJV 2 Kings 6:33"And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
KJV Isaiah 45:7"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
KJV Amos3:6"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it"

As to 2 King 6:33 – while it may be true that the messenger of the king, not God, said that, it does not follow that he had an accurate assessment of the situation. Actually, the mess was caused by their own disobedience.

As to Isa. 45:7 – I addressed this earlier, but it should be pointed out that God did not create darkness. It was already there. God created light by which it was then possible to tell the difference. God has created evil in the sense that he pointed out what was good and what was evil. Both already existed when he defined evil.

As to Amos 3:6 – The trumpet mentioned in the first half of the verse was a warning trumpet. Who’s to say that the “God hath not done it,” is a reference to bringing the evil rather than sounding the warning. In view of the fact that God consistently warns the people of evil, it is more consistent to say that God sounded the warning, not that he brought the evil.

Geezer further quotes:

God's Commands, like the following are quite common: KJV 1 Samuel 15:3"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." there is also Josh.6:21; 1Sam.6:19; Jer.13:14; Deut.2:30-35, 7:1-2, 7:16; God would even make people act indifferent to there intended victims to cause them to attack or ignore the problem"KJV Exod 4:21"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

Well, then, why doesn’t this suggest to you that it is not a good idea to be an enemy of God?

That is, of course, the actual problem. Through our disobedience, we are God’s enemies. We humans choose to go our own way rather than follow the directions of God. Then we turn around and say it is God’s fault that what he said would happen as the result of evil is what happens. We always run the risk of experiencing negative results from our own disobedience or the disobedience of others.

I should think, in view of the Biblical pictures of God dispensing His wrath, it would make people not want to be subject to that wrath. If one chooses to ignore the prospect of God’s wrath, it is almost certain he will be subjected to it.

The obvious thing here is that many do not believe God wrathfully did those things to people who were disobedient. But they enjoy suggest this is why they don't like God. If they believed God did those things, they would be doing everything in their power to avoid being subject to God’s wrath.

“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God,” Heb. 10:31.

oh for crying out loud, god doesn't exist, so he couldn't have created as much as a cold sausage, let alone evil

doesn't it strike you as pretty pointless discussing the qualities of a god that you already claim to know doesn't exist ?

Originally Posted by marnixR

oh for crying out loud, god doesn't exist, so he couldn't have created as much as a cold sausage, let alone evil

doesn't it strike you as pretty pointless discussing the qualities of a god that you already claim to know doesn't exist ?

He does exist to me. He might exist to the rest of you. And that's the bottom line, cos Stone Cold said so.

Originally Posted by marnixR

oh for crying out loud, god doesn't exist, so he couldn't have created as much as a cold sausage, let alone evil

doesn't it strike you as pretty pointless discussing the qualities of a god that you already claim to know doesn't exist ?

Doesn't Exist (DnE) argumentation. It's a red herring. You're detracting attention from the central focus of the discussion.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Sciphil said:

I'd say that's relative to the individual. Evil for me may not be evil for you.

This is the same as saying there is no such thing as evil. Someplace someone is able to justify and declare as not evil any act that might be committed. Some are able to justify rape and murder, crimes most of us consider evil.

Most of us consider it evil, but that doesn't mean it's evil. Yes, our society may consider it unjust, and thus the person committing the crime deserves whatever punishment comes with it (because that person is knowledgeable of what is acceptable in the society), but in some other nation/society, that person would not be viewed as immoral/unjust, so to say that that person is evil in an absolute sense is to say so with arrogance.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Evil in so far as God would be concerned is what God says evil is. On that stage, men do not have the option to declare as good something that God has called evil.

How do you know what God calls evil?

Assuming you're going off what the Bible says...

Why is God justified in murdering thousands (in the Bible), yet we as individuals can't do such?

Why (according to the Bible) can God be vengeful and jealous, yet we can't?

God is a hypocrite in that sense.

As a final note: Why would God be interested in whether we have sex out of marriage or not?
Why would He care if we're lustful?
Why would He care if we covet our neighbor's wife?

Originally Posted by daytonturner

This is the same as saying there is no such thing as evil. Someplace someone is able to justify and declare as not evil any act that might be committed. Some are able to justify rape and murder, crimes most of us consider evil.

Evil in so far as God would be concerned is what God says evil is. On that stage, men do not have the option to declare as good something that God has called evil.

Evil, much the same as good, are concepts drawn exclusively from religion and have no real meaning in nature.

Evil and good, as far as gods are concerned declaring them such, are completely subjective to the purpose of the myth or superstition and often run contradictory between the cults that propagate them.

Evil and good quickly become convoluted and confusing concepts and lose all meaning. It's a simple matter from there to justify any act of violence without even understanding the consequences of the acts.

So, no, there is no such thing as evil, or good.

Originally Posted by (Q)

Originally Posted by daytonturner

This is the same as saying there is no such thing as evil. Someplace someone is able to justify and declare as not evil any act that might be committed. Some are able to justify rape and murder, crimes most of us consider evil.

Evil in so far as God would be concerned is what God says evil is. On that stage, men do not have the option to declare as good something that God has called evil.

Evil, much the same as good, are concepts drawn exclusively from religion and have no real meaning in nature.

Evil and good, as far as gods are concerned declaring them such, are completely subjective to the purpose of the myth or superstition and often run contradictory between the cults that propagate them.

Evil and good quickly become convoluted and confusing concepts and lose all meaning. It's a simple matter from there to justify any act of violence without even understanding the consequences of the acts.

So, no, there is no such thing as evil, or good.

interesting how you refer to animals in the attempt to properly establish norms or reality .....

SciPhi asks:

Why is God justified in murdering thousands (in the Bible), yet we as individuals can't do such?

Even our own legal systems have forms of justifiable homicide such as self defense and the greater good. It is also permissible to take another's life in war. We put people to death as punishment for capital crimes. Such exceptions are also defined in the Bible.

So the command not to kill is not a blanket ban. Jesus clarifies this commandment saying that if we harbor hate in our heart, that is the same as committing murder even though we do not take a life.

But if you think about it for a moment, God ultimately "kills" everyone. We all die.

It is not a matter of when we die, or how we die, why we die, but we do all end up dead. No one reading this is going to avoid physical death.

Great post to Marnix. If you don't believe in God and you don't believe the Bible is his letter to humanity, then it is a paradox to attempt to use the Bible to show His faults.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

SciPhi asks:

Why is God justified in murdering thousands (in the Bible), yet we as individuals can't do such?

Even our own legal systems have forms of justifiable homicide such as self defense and the greater good. It is also permissible to take another's life in war. We put people to death as punishment for capital crimes. Such exceptions are also defined in the Bible.

So the command not to kill is not a blanket ban. Jesus clarifies this commandment saying that if we harbor hate in our heart, that is the same as committing murder even though we do not take a life.

But if you think about it for a moment, God ultimately "kills" everyone. We all die.

It is not a matter of when we die, or how we die, why we die, but we do all end up dead. No one reading this is going to avoid physical death.

Great post to Marnix. If you don't believe in God and you don't believe the Bible is his letter to humanity, then it is a paradox to attempt to use the Bible to show His faults.

I'll accept that.

But you've still got these to answer:
Why (according to the Bible) can God be vengeful and jealous, yet we can't?

God is a hypocrite in that sense.

As a final note: Why would God be interested in whether we have sex out of marriage or not?
Why would He care if we're lustful?
Why would He care if we covet our neighbor's wife?

And my defense of moral relativism.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by marnixR

oh for crying out loud, god doesn't exist, so he couldn't have created as much as a cold sausage, let alone evil

doesn't it strike you as pretty pointless discussing the qualities of a god that you already claim to know doesn't exist ?

Doesn't Exist (DnE) argumentation. It's a red herring. You're detracting attention from the central focus of the discussion.

suit yourself - while you're at it, do you want to start discussing how many angels fit on a pinhead ?

Originally Posted by punarmusiko

interesting how you refer to animals in the attempt to properly establish norms or reality .....

I made no such referral. Please point out the exact quote.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Even our own legal systems have forms of justifiable homicide such as self defense and the greater good. It is also permissible to take another's life in war. We put people to death as punishment for capital crimes. Such exceptions are also defined in the Bible.

I don't think any current legal systems (other than Sharia Law, perhaps) have ever committed anyone on the grounds of being "evil." at least not since witch hunting was abolished. While at the same crossing, it's not likely that prison rehabilitation programs are defined as making someone "good."

If you don't believe in God and you don't believe the Bible is his letter to humanity, then it is a paradox to attempt to use the Bible to show His faults.

Agreed. That said, we can therefore establish that if the bible was merely penned from the imaginations of men, it can be considered more of a representation of the ignorance of those men of the world around them.

Originally Posted by (Q)

Originally Posted by daytonturner

If you don't believe in God and you don't believe the Bible is his letter to humanity, then it is a paradox to attempt to use the Bible to show His faults.

Agreed. That said, we can therefore establish that if the bible was merely penned from the imaginations of men, it can be considered more of a representation of the ignorance of those men of the world around them.

Then the opposite is also true. Thus those that believe in God and the Bible must take the Bible literally to avoid a paradox.

Sciphi asked:

But you've still got these to answer:
Why (according to the Bible) can God be vengeful and jealous, yet we can't?

God is a hypocrite in that sense.

This is my own thinking and I do not claim that it is free of potential misunderstanding. However, let me ask, has anyone ever been unjustly angry at you. That is, were you ever accused of something you didn’t do? Are innocent people put in jail? Do guilty people go free?

My point is that we are fallible in our views of the actions of others and can make invalid judgments. We can become angry at the wrong people, we can be jealous of the actions of others when they have had no ill motives whatsoever. For that reason, it would seem to me, God reserves the rights of vengence and jealousy to Himself because He understands the true motives from which a person has acted.

Sciphi further asked:

As a final note: Why would God be interested in whether we have sex out of marriage or not?
Why would He care if we're lustful?
Why would He care if we covet our neighbor's wife?

I think God is interested in our well being. What we consider promiscuous sex is the source of a number of social and medical problems for many people. Unwanted pregnancies often lead to a number of social problems placing babies in the hands of young girls who are hardly prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood, who have very little chance of ever supporting their child on their own. There are many other social problems that come as a result.

There is also the matter of sexually transmitted diseases. Generally speaking, where a couple confines their sexual activity to themselves, there is little chance to catch and or transmit an STD. The greater number of partners a person has, the greater the chance that one partner will have and pass on an STD which can then be passed on to others.

These problems do not arise from every non-marital sexual encounter, nor is marital sex completely devoid of such problems. However, the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies and distribution of sexually transmitted diseases take place in non-marital sex.

To me, it is not a matter that God wants to deprive people of the pleasure of sex, but he does want them to avoid the potential hazards. If you don’t want to get lost in the woods, it is easy to prevent by just not going into the woods.

I think God is concerned about lustful thoughts because of what they can lead to. Some people never act out of their lust. But others do resulting in forcing an unwilling partner into a sexual experience – generally called rape.

Jesus says in Mt 5:28, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” There are some who suggest this means that if one looks at someone of the opposite sex and finds that person sexually attractive, they are being lustful. I’m not sure I would go that strict.

When it says to “lust after her,” I get the connotation that the lust is not in the recognition of the person’s attractiveness, but rather in the pursuit of that person only for the purpose of establishing a sexual encounter or thinking about the person only in terms of a sexual encouter. I think it is natural to find some people of the opposite sex attractive and desirable, and without that, it would be pretty difficult to pair off as couples.

Why shouldn’t we mess with our neighbor’s spouse? In many societies that is a good way to get yourself killed.

Sciphi concludes:

And my defense of moral relativism.

That is a related topic but far too broad to address in this post. May I merely refer you to a book, “Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air,” by Francis J. Beckwith and Gregory Koukl. It provides what I consider a very good job of defining moral relativism and the impact it has on society.

The biggest problem with relativism is that some things are relative and some things are not. The challenge is to differentiate between the two.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Then the opposite is also true. Thus those that believe in God and the Bible must take the Bible literally to avoid a paradox.

Both are possibilities. It is now up to reason, rationale and critical thinking to establish which possibility might be closest to reality.

No paradox need exist, but an analysis as to the ignorance of the men of those times coupled with the penchant for myth and superstitions to rule their decision making processes might weed out a truth or two.

We can also extrapolate centuries of historic documentation outlining the demonstrableness of bible driven campaigns.

To embrace the bible as the literal word of a god is foolish in the extreme if one were to simply ignore it's past enterprises throughout history.

zingy wrote:

Then the opposite is also true. Thus those that believe in God and the Bible must take the Bible literally to avoid a paradox.

Yes, I take the Bible literally, but not the way you mean literally.

Literally also means in accordance to the literary style in which it was written. We do not view a history book the same way we view a book of poetry.

The Bible is presented in many literary styles and it is becomes very important to view different passages in the light of the literary style in which they are presented.

However, such discussions are usually only meant to divert attention from the overall message of the Bible which is that men have gone their own way and have become estranged from God. As a result they will face God's wrath after they die unless they accept and trust that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus qualifies them to receive, instead, God's mercy.

No matter how literally or figuratively you view various passages of the Bible, that message still comes through loud and clear.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Literally also means in accordance to the literary style in which it was written. We do not view a history book the same way we view a book of poetry.

The Bible is presented in many literary styles and it is becomes very important to view different passages in the light of the literary style in which they are presented.

Aesops Fables and Grimms Tales are also of a formidable literary style.

However, such discussions are usually only meant to divert attention from the overall message of the Bible which is that men have gone their own way and have become estranged from God. As a result they will face God's wrath after they die unless they accept and trust that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus qualifies them to receive, instead, God's mercy.

Threats of violence run rampant throughout the bible demanding submission for mercy. Much the same with Aesop and Grimms.

No matter how literally or figuratively you view various passages of the Bible, that message still comes through loud and clear.

It's interesting to note that the very same Abrahamic god delivers completely different messages, also quite loud and clear, to your respective rival cults? Curious...

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by marnixR

oh for crying out loud, god doesn't exist, so he couldn't have created as much as a cold sausage, let alone evil

doesn't it strike you as pretty pointless discussing the qualities of a god that you already claim to know doesn't exist ?

Doesn't Exist (DnE) argumentation. It's a red herring. You're detracting attention from the central focus of the discussion.

suit yourself - while you're at it, do you want to start discussing how many angels fit on a pinhead ?

Sure. I say 0.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Sciphi asked:

But you've still got these to answer:
Why (according to the Bible) can God be vengeful and jealous, yet we can't?

God is a hypocrite in that sense.

This is my own thinking and I do not claim that it is free of potential misunderstanding. However, let me ask, has anyone ever been unjustly angry at you. That is, were you ever accused of something you didn’t do? Are innocent people put in jail? Do guilty people go free?

My point is that we are fallible in our views of the actions of others and can make invalid judgments. We can become angry at the wrong people, we can be jealous of the actions of others when they have had no ill motives whatsoever. For that reason, it would seem to me, God reserves the rights of vengence and jealousy to Himself because He understands the true motives from which a person has acted.

Two HUGE problems:

1. You don't need to know the motives of a person to be jealous.
2. I infer from the Bible that God is jealous of false gods (who can't even have motives).

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Sciphi further asked:

As a final note: Why would God be interested in whether we have sex out of marriage or not?
Why would He care if we're lustful?
Why would He care if we covet our neighbor's wife?

I think God is interested in our well being.

How is lust bad for us? Did you know that scientists have found that men should ejaculate more?

Originally Posted by daytonturner

What we consider promiscuous sex is the source of a number of social and medical problems for many people.

What we consider promiscuous sex now-a-days is sleeping with 10 people you've just met, not fornication.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Unwanted pregnancies often lead to a number of social problems placing babies in the hands of young girls who are hardly prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood, who have very little chance of ever supporting their child on their own. There are many other social problems that come as a result.

In truth, this happens inside of marriage as well; according to God, once you're married, it's all right.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

There is also the matter of sexually transmitted diseases.

Gained through having multiple partners, sharing needles, or not knowing your partner's sexual health status. Not fornication (which God says is wrong). You can marry someone who gained an STD from a bad needle and didn't know.

Marriage (and non-promiscuous sex) doesn't make you immune to STDs, smart sex does (well, except for the chance that you catch it from medical malpractice/bad needles).

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Generally speaking, where a couple confines their sexual activity to themselves, there is little chance to catch and or transmit an STD.

Including a non-married couple engaging in premarital sex.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

The greater number of partners a person has, the greater the chance that one partner will have and pass on an STD which can then be passed on to others.

Ok.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

These problems do not arise from every non-marital sexual encounter, nor is marital sex completely devoid of such problems.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

However, the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies and distribution of sexually transmitted diseases take place in non-marital sex.

Proof?

Originally Posted by daytonturner

To me, it is not a matter that God wants to deprive people of the pleasure of sex, but he does want them to avoid the potential hazards. If you don’t want to get lost in the woods, it is easy to prevent by just not going into the woods.

Ok.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

I think God is concerned about lustful thoughts because of what they can lead to. Some people never act out of their lust. But others do resulting in forcing an unwilling partner into a sexual experience – generally called rape.

Ok.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Jesus says in Mt 5:28, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” There are some who suggest this means that if one looks at someone of the opposite sex and finds that person sexually attractive, they are being lustful. I’m not sure I would go that strict.

When it says to “lust after her,” I get the connotation that the lust is not in the recognition of the person’s attractiveness, but rather in the pursuit of that person only for the purpose of establishing a sexual encounter or thinking about the person only in terms of a sexual encouter. I think it is natural to find some people of the opposite sex attractive and desirable, and without that, it would be pretty difficult to pair off as couples.

Ok.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Why shouldn’t we mess with our neighbor’s spouse? In many societies that is a good way to get yourself killed.

Ok.

Now, shall we consider why we ought not be homosexual?

Better yet, what's wrong with masturbation?

And why shouldn't we have any God before Him? It seems to me that having other gods before Him doesn't harm us.
Nor does taking His name in vain.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Sciphi concludes:

And my defense of moral relativism.

That is a related topic but far too broad to address in this post. May I merely refer you to a book, “Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air,” by Francis J. Beckwith and Gregory Koukl. It provides what I consider a very good job of defining moral relativism and the impact it has on society.

Ok.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

The biggest problem with relativism is that some things are relative and some things are not. The challenge is to differentiate between the two.

That's general relativism(*heh*). I'm talking about moral relativism.

My next question is this:

Why does God send nonbelievers to hell, and is He justified in doing such?

Originally Posted by daytonturner

zingy wrote:

Then the opposite is also true. Thus those that believe in God and the Bible must take the Bible literally to avoid a paradox.

Yes, I take the Bible literally, but not the way you mean literally.

Literally also means in accordance to the literary style in which it was written

Well there goes any paradox. No one is an expert on the Bible, no one. You say the bible was written in a literary style that is, I can only assume, for only believers to interpret. Unless there is a preface or prologue included in the first pages, you do not have the right to proclaim you know that a literary style exists. You can make it so, and you must, in order to make sense of it all. Even then you cannot ever be sure what the god of your's or anybody else's bible actually wants. There are stories in the bible that put your god in a very bad light but never fear, it wasn't meant that way, but if words make your god exemplary then it must be true.

So much for literary style when it is totally weighted in favor of a good god and only the bad or contradictory parts are redefined. If god wants babies' heads bashed in then you have to believe He wants to see some dead babies. These are supposed to be God's words, why are they not clear enough? Think cult! You are programmed!

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Why doesn't God eliminate all evil?

This is a question I see raised here quite often. Sometimes it is not exactly a question but rather a statement that a "good" God would not allow evil to exist. And, therefore, God does not exist.

If God were going to get rid of all evil, one of the first issues is who gets to decide what is evil. However, if God is the one to eliminate evil, it would seem that He is the One who gets to decide.

I suppose if I were going to draw the line, I would do so just as would anyone else would do. I would draw the line just a little below where I am on the scale between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I and those less evil than me would survive while those more evil than me would be eradicated.

Ruling that out as a reasonable standard and assuming that God were going to eliminate evil and He is the One to draw the line, it would be prudent to know where that line is in order that one not fall below it and risk being eliminated as evil.

Now, if the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, were the God who was doing that, we do have some lines drawn in the Bible. The 10 Commandments would be a starting point.

So, have you ever told a lie? Even a little one? If so, you have violated one of the commandments -- the one about bearing false witness.

Have you ever stolen anything? Even a little item when you were young? If so, you have violated the commandment that you should not steal.

Just based on those two commandments representing acts which God considers evil, I suspect most honest readers of this forum would have to admit they have done one or both of those things and are, therefore, guilty of evil doing in God's eyes.

It becomes obvious that if God were to eliminate all evil, it would be necessary for Him to eliminate all humanity. Thus, the existence of evil does not show that God does not exist.

The question becomes not whether a good God allows evil to exist, but rather why would a good God allow evil to exist?

I think one obvious reason is that He does not want to destroy mankind. It is more important to God that mankind exist on earth than that evil be eliminated on earth. In one sense, human evil is ultimately eradicated piece by piece in that all humans die.

Meanwhile, God does have a place where evil does not exist and evil is not allowed to enter there. That leads to the question is how do humans, who are evil under God's standards, gain entrance into that place where evil does not exist and cannot enter?

Well, the same God who has declared them evil can also declare them righteous and has provided a way for that to happen. He sent an aspect of his own personality, Jesus, to dwell in human form and to live a perfect human life in total subjection to the will of God. He was, however, put to death although He was the only man who ever lived who did not deserve to die for being evil. In dying, he became the perfect sacrifice (an unblemished lamb) and took upon himself the penalty for all the evil ever committed. He then proved his power over death and evil and conquered both by being resurrected. Those who place their trust and faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are declared righteous before God.

It is not that God declares them innocent. It is more as if you were in court and the judge declares you guilty and levies a fine, but someone else pays the fine for you.

So before you insist that God prove himself by eliminating all evil, consider the consequences that act would render upon your own existence.

According to bible prophecy He will at an appointed time. Now He is testing men to see who will do evil and who will get saved and be righteous. That is to determine who goes to heaven to be an angel and who will suffer in hell as punishment.
After Jesus returns, evil will be eliminated on the Earth for a thousand years. After that, the devil will be allowed to deceive (a final test) for a short time. The deceived men will be destroyed. Then evil will be eliminated from this planet forever after that. That is how it is prophecied in the scriptures; a very brief summary.
The saved Christians are happy in heaven forevermore.
The unsaved sinners are miserable in hell forevermore.
End of story.

Sorry brother, the weak and tempted evil ones will be cast to reapeat history until they repent. God is all forgiving, love your brother and your evil brother. Love all, for these are The LORDs words.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Ruling that out as a reasonable standard and assuming that God were going to eliminate evil and He is the One to draw the line, it would be prudent to know where that line is in order that one not fall below it and risk being eliminated as evil.

Now, if the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, were the God who was doing that, we do have some lines drawn in the Bible. The 10 Commandments would be a starting point.

I would rather start at Job or Noah, so we may introduce the god of Abraham in his true form, a petty, cruel, immoral bloodthirsty tyrant who would rather kill everyone in order to cover up his own shortcomings.

So, have you ever told a lie? Even a little one? If so, you have violated one of the commandments -- the one about bearing false witness.

Have you ever stolen anything? Even a little item when you were young? If so, you have violated the commandment that you should not steal.

Have you ever coveted your neighbors young slave women? Slavery appears to be ok with the god of Abraham. What moral lessons can we learn?

It becomes obvious that if God were to eliminate all evil, it would be necessary for Him to eliminate all humanity. Thus, the existence of evil does not show that God does not exist.

The god of Abraham has already murdered the globes population and still didn't get it right. How many more times must he murder people to get his message out? We already got the message, thanks.

The question becomes not whether a good God allows evil to exist, but rather why would a good God allow evil to exist?

Simple answers. Evil and good are religious concepts that quite obviously have no meaning, in reality or theology. The god of Abraham constantly demonstrates the breaking of his own laws as he quite happily kills anyone and everyone whenever he feels the fancy.

I think one obvious reason is that He does not want to destroy mankind. It is more important to God that mankind exist on earth than that evil be eliminated on earth. In one sense, human evil is ultimately eradicated piece by piece in that all humans die.

He keeps mankind alive because wants to continue torturing mankind, as any petty despot would require.

Meanwhile, God does have a place where evil does not exist and evil is not allowed to enter there. That leads to the question is how do humans, who are evil under God's standards, gain entrance into that place where evil does not exist and cannot enter?

Theists must construct ridiculous arguments from their imaginations in order to support other ridiculous arguments from their imaginations.

Well, the same God who has declared them evil can also declare them righteous and has provided a way for that to happen. He sent an aspect of his own personality, Jesus, to dwell in human form and to live a perfect human life in total subjection to the will of God. He was, however, put to death although He was the only man who ever lived who did not deserve to die for being evil. In dying, he became the perfect sacrifice (an unblemished lamb) and took upon himself the penalty for all the evil ever committed. He then proved his power over death and evil and conquered both by being resurrected. Those who place their trust and faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are declared righteous before God.

What utter childish fairy tale nonsense. Jesus never died. Gods can't die. The resurrection story goes back long before the fictional character Jesus allegedly existed.

So before you insist that God prove himself by eliminating all evil, consider the consequences that act would render upon your own existence.

One wonders if an adult actually wrote this ridiculous fairy tale as it appears to come directly from Mother Goose.

The god of Abraham, as depicted in the bible, is the embodiment of the evils purported by the same source. He would have to eliminate himself in order to eliminate the evils.

So you have a choice!

I think He doesn't get rid of evil because he did not create evil. Man brings evil into the world. Nature hurts man, because man invades places he was never meant to be. Get rid of man get rid of evil. Not to mention if the world was perfect no one would aprreciate it.

Originally Posted by ghost7584

According to bible prophecy He will at an appointed time. Now He is testing men to see who will do evil and who will get saved and be righteous. That is to determine who goes to heaven to be an angel and who will suffer in hell as punishment.
After Jesus returns, evil will be eliminated on the Earth for a thousand years. After that, the devil will be allowed to deceive (a final test) for a short time. The deceived men will be destroyed. Then evil will be eliminated from this planet forever after that. That is how it is prophecied in the scriptures; a very brief summary.
The saved Christians are happy in heaven forevermore.
The unsaved sinners are miserable in hell forevermore.
End of story.

What happens if you are raised in a traditional jewish family and you or your parents or your grandparents were tortured and/or killed by people who were doing so in Jesus' name? Or have you forgotten the Nazis?

So, because a jewish person will not accept Christ because of the acts committed in his name, God will doom him to hell even if he follows his commandments, the one the Bible claims JESUS HIMSELF gave to Moses?

What about people raised in regions of the world where there was no knowledge whatsoever of Abraham's God? As long as they follow their morals, and they do not do the things they know are wrong, and attempt to do what they see as just and upright? Are they all doomed to hell?

If you say yes, how do you know how God will judge? How dare you place yourself as judge of others when your very religion does not permit such judgments?

BTW, nowhere in the bible does it ever say we will be angels. In fact, the translation from the Greek word for angel literally means "messenger" so that makes angel and preacher interchangeable, as far as the New Testament is concerned. Now as for the Seraphim, and other heavenly beings, the Bible states they were created to serve God and Man.

Also, since the bible states the Anti-christ will be a great deceiver, I have a feeling he will come out of the very church groups that feel the most smug about their religious views. In other words, organized religion is where this devil is most likely to gain his followers.

God did not create evil, just as God did not create darkness. Evil is simply the absence of Good, just as darkness is simply the absence of light.

Supernatendo asked:

What happens if you are raised in a traditional jewish family and you or your parents or your grandparents were tortured and/or killed by people who were doing so in Jesus' name? Or have you forgotten the Nazis?

So, because a jewish person will not accept Christ because of the acts committed in his name, God will doom him to hell even if he follows his commandments, the one the Bible claims JESUS HIMSELF gave to Moses?

What about people raised in regions of the world where there was no knowledge whatsoever of Abraham's God? As long as they follow their morals, and they do not do the things they know are wrong, and attempt to do what they see as just and upright? Are they all doomed to hell?

This kind of question bothers me, too, because the plan of salvation does seem to exclude some people whose exclusion seems somewhat unfair.

Those who have never heard the plan of salvation and, therefore, have not rejected it, are not excluded. The are held accountable according to what they knew concerning God and how they responded to that.

What we do know is that God has revealed a plan of salvation. We have no indication that there is a secondary plan. But if there is, and I hope there is, it is up to God's own discretion and would be based on both his justice and mercy. It is difficult to consider Anne Frank agonizing in hell. I am willing to let God sort that stuff out.

Meanwhile, believing and trusting in Jesus for salvation remains the one known and only sure way to receive God's mercy when you are judged. Knowing my own history, I don't think a wise person would pin his hopes in some unknown plan B.

Also, the only way to eliminate darkness is to saturate the universe with light. The only way to eliminate evil is to totally saturate the universe with good. Just as at the beginning God saw that it was good, then after sin, things were no longer all good.