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Thread: Why I am a Christian!

  1. #1 Why I am a Christian! 
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    After much soul searching over the past couple of months where I was pretty much give or take an atheist, I ralized that I cannot really believe in a universe without God. As a Christian my conception of God is going to be different from that of Muslim or a Hindu certainly but I believe that my God (which is the monothestic God of Abraham) is not a God which believes in collective action. As a liberal I know that liberalism in Western European thought was a rebellion against religion but it undeniably has Christian elements in its ideological core. I believe that God created man to be radically free, God does not want his will imposed on people, that would against God's will imo. Imo God created free will for a reason, he created it so each individual makes a decision, that is why I believe God would be against the idea of a theocratic state. Imposing God's laws on others is inauthentic because people would follow God's laws for fear of punishment not through faith and good will. An authentic Christian at the very least imo would be one that follows the teachings of God on his own without external influences, a authentic Christian would be one that tolerates other ways of life knowing that he is only responsible for his own destiny. That is why I am so happy to be a Christian right now, this spiritual revelation for me explains so much. God did not give society a collective free will but the individual a free will, of which he can do whatever he pleases but should know the consequences of his actions in the afterlife. For you are not responsbile for my soul, nor am I responsible for yours. That is why to me imposing "religious laws" or "value based laws" is antithetical to the conception of the free will. If you are a pious Christian for instance you shouldn't need a state to tell you what not to do it should be avoided due to your faith. The words of Jesus Christ gives us guidance not directives, the word of Christ gives us heed to tolerate others, help others regardless of their faith, race, or creed and to expect nothing in return. The word of Christ tells us not to seek revenge for sins committed against us, because we would not be any better then those who committed the act against us (which is very Kantian). I believe that Christanity is intensely individualistic, and the role of church is not to tell us what to do, but to say "look here is what we believe you can follow it, but we will not force you to because if we were it would unauthentic expression of faith". My God is one of compassion, forgiveness and tolerance the latter of which is the cornerstone of liberalism. Some religious people will object to this as being rather heretical, but I say to them since liberalism brings us as close to radical freedom without going into a state of nature isn't our true faith then tested by the temptations of freedom? I do not believe that liberalism is antithetical to God, it reinforces his main directive of the free will. God also knew (from a Christian perspective) man is not without sin, as Jesus said that one without sin shall cast the first stone, he could have but didn't (which shows the utter compassion of my God). That idea of forgiveness also shows to me radical freedom, God recognized that every individual will sin, and repeatedly over the course of his lifetime, but God does not shun that individual much rather wants him to recognize his sin, repent and try not to do it again (or else the act of forgiving would be turned into a sham). But how does this reinforce the idea of radical freedom? Well as Jesus as the only person who did not have sin against his name, decided not to take the bloodthursty route so many others would have taken. Thus a society which is free to do what it will (largely save the 10 commandments) can and will forgive its transgressors, realizing that the path to heaven is through realization, forgiveness, and respect for each man as if it was urself but we must allow that man the possibility to sin in the first place, for a country without sin is not a country with a God. I think I will have more in the future but of right now, this is my conception of a Christian God.


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  3. #2 Re: Why I am a Christian! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    After much soul searching over the past couple of months where I was pretty much give or take an atheist, I ralized that I cannot really believe in a universe without God. As a Christian my conception of God is going to be different from that of Muslim or a Hindu certainly but I believe that my God (which is the monothestic God of Abraham) is not a God which believes in collective action. As a liberal I know that liberalism in Western European thought was a rebellion against religion but it undeniably has Christian elements in its ideological core. I believe that God created man to be radically free, God does not want his will imposed on people, that would against God's will imo. Imo God created free will for a reason, he created it so each individual makes a decision, that is why I believe God would be against the idea of a theocratic state. Imposing God's laws on others is inauthentic because people would follow God's laws for fear of punishment not through faith and good will. An authentic Christian at the very least imo would be one that follows the teachings of God on his own without external influences, a authentic Christian would be one that tolerates other ways of life knowing that he is only responsible for his own destiny. That is why I am so happy to be a Christian right now, this spiritual revelation for me explains so much. God did not give society a collective free will but the individual a free will, of which he can do whatever he pleases but should know the consequences of his actions in the afterlife. For you are not responsbile for my soul, nor am I responsible for yours. That is why to me imposing "religious laws" or "value based laws" is antithetical to the conception of the free will. If you are a pious Christian for instance you shouldn't need a state to tell you what not to do it should be avoided due to your faith. The words of Jesus Christ gives us guidance not directives, the word of Christ gives us heed to tolerate others, help others regardless of their faith, race, or creed and to expect nothing in return. The word of Christ tells us not to seek revenge for sins committed against us, because we would not be any better then those who committed the act against us (which is very Kantian). I believe that Christanity is intensely individualistic, and the role of church is not to tell us what to do, but to say "look here is what we believe you can follow it, but we will not force you to because if we were it would unauthentic expression of faith". My God is one of compassion, forgiveness and tolerance the latter of which is the cornerstone of liberalism. Some religious people will object to this as being rather heretical, but I say to them since liberalism brings us as close to radical freedom without going into a state of nature isn't our true faith then tested by the temptations of freedom? I do not believe that liberalism is antithetical to God, it reinforces his main directive of the free will. God also knew (from a Christian perspective) man is not without sin, as Jesus said that one without sin shall cast the first stone, he could have but didn't (which shows the utter compassion of my God). That idea of forgiveness also shows to me radical freedom, God recognized that every individual will sin, and repeatedly over the course of his lifetime, but God does not shun that individual much rather wants him to recognize his sin, repent and try not to do it again (or else the act of forgiving would be turned into a sham). But how does this reinforce the idea of radical freedom? Well as Jesus as the only person who did not have sin against his name, decided not to take the bloodthursty route so many others would have taken. Thus a society which is free to do what it will (largely save the 10 commandments) can and will forgive its transgressors, realizing that the path to heaven is through realization, forgiveness, and respect for each man as if it was urself but we must allow that man the possibility to sin in the first place, for a country without sin is not a country with a God. I think I will have more in the future but of right now, this is my conception of a Christian God.
    You use the word BELIEVE" alot. That's fine. I see you have a nice, personal attachment to this conception of god you've created. I'm happy for you.

    Now, don't spread the word publicly, keep it personal, leave it out of politics and education. You should never have a need to discuss it with non-believers ever again.

    Thanks.


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    Undecided: firstly lets clear this up you could not have been a Atheist, at any time in the past. as you would still be an Atheist .
    so refrain from stupid statements like this " where I was pretty much give or take an atheist,"

    now as to why you are a christian only you would know it is pointless to ask us, your reasoning though it is only subjective, cannot be truly discussed in the objective world.
    of course you will find like minded people, but there subjective reasons for there believes will be close to yours but not exactly the same, religious believe is a totally personal thing.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  5. #4  
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    I ralized that I cannot really believe in a universe without God.

    The universe appreciates your concern, is doing just fine without and does not feel the need for one at this time.

    Thanks muchly.
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  6. #5 Re: Why I am a Christian! 
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    Now, don't spread the word publicly, keep it personal, leave it out of politics and education. You should never have a need to discuss it with non-believers ever again.

    Since you missed the point of my thread, I believe that religion and the state should be seperate, as I believe that God intended that to be the way it is. I agree completely that my conception of God is one which is totally voluntary, I am not a fundamentalist Christian as I abhorr them and their way of life. Now I will surely not allow myself to be patronized by someone like you, I have the right and surely the ability to communicate my belief to others as I see fit, I don't have the right to impose that belief and imposing it would be disengenious.

    geezer

    Undecided: firstly lets clear this up you could not have been a Atheist, at any time in the past. as you would still be an Atheist .

    Where did I suggest I was an atheist? Re-read what I wrote:

    After much soul searching over the past couple of months where I was pretty much give or take an atheist, I ralized that I cannot really believe in a universe without God.
    I was never officially an atheist, I was on the verge for sure. Also your logic is not logical, just because I would be a atheist at one time does not mean I cannot be one at another time, that makes no sense.

    so refrain from stupid statements like this " where I was pretty much give or take an atheist,

    You surely haven't given me a logical reason why not...until I see one stop being so patronizing.

    now as to why you are a christian only you would know it is pointless to ask us, your reasoning though it is only subjective, cannot be truly discussed in the objective world.

    May I ask a question...can you read properly? Where did I ask any one of you to answer anything? I completely I agree with you that my reasoning, and my religion, etc. is subjective, as are your's. As Marx would suggest there is no such thing as morals, only machinations of the prevailing material system of production, do I agree with Marx...sure I do to an extent. The religions of today are hijacked by those who posses the material wherewithal to determine its positions regarding certain issues, which to me is a threat to individualism and religion itself as its prone to massive corruption through political hijacking.

    of course you will find like minded people, but there subjective reasons for there believes will be close to yours but not exactly the same, religious believe is a totally personal thing.

    I have never suggested otherwise...note what I said as my thread title:
    Why I am a Christian!
    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

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    The universe appreciates your concern, is doing just fine without and does not feel the need for one at this time.

    You are the universe sir? Do you have a connection with an idea like the universe that we do not posses? Sorry but last time I checked you did not monopolize the opinion of an infinite universe do you? The universe is unconcerned with anything because it cannot be concerned by anything, including yourself. So in the desperate attempt to de-legitimize my opinion you should be looking in the mirror because we are both irrelevant. Also you seem to forget what the word "I" means...
    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

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  8. #7  
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    Undecided:

    I have the right and surely the ability to communicate my belief to others as I see fit, I don't have the right to impose that belief and imposing it would be disengenious.
    Damn straight. And as for the patronizing, anyone that posts a thread dedicated to "Why I am a Christian" in a science forum religion section deserves whatever they get.
    Huh?
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    Do you have a connection with an idea like the universe that we do not posses?

    Do you mean like the connection YOU imply to have with gods?

    I believe that God intended that to be the way it is.
    Sorry but last time I checked you did not monopolize the opinion of an infinite universe do you?

    The universe is finite, but I digress... do you mean like your opinion?

    I believe God would be against the idea of a theocratic state
    The universe is unconcerned with anything because it cannot be concerned by anything, including yourself.

    And as the universe is equally unconcerned with your perception that it requires a god.

    In other words, your opening statement, "I cannot really believe in a universe without God" should in fact read, "I cannot accept reality for what it is and need to believe in a God."
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    superluminal

    Damn straight. And as for the patronizing, anyone that posts a thread dedicated to "Why I am a Christian" in a science forum religion section deserves whatever they get.

    Well I can tell you have a preconceived notion of Christians as being autocratic, and other misconceived notions implanted by the Christian right in the US. About your patronizing tone it was obviously was without merit, you did not deal with the issue at hand but you ad hom-ed me, and you are criticizing a legitimate thread in a legitimate part of the forum, thus I disagree with your further deduction of logic that to post a religious thread...in a religious forum allows me to get all I get. I would understand if the forum was officially atheist which it is not, so its not I nor my thread which the problem t'is you. Get over yourself.

    Q

    Do you mean like the connection YOU imply to have with gods?

    Unlike you I do not imply that I am the only one with a connection with God (not Gods), nor do I protend to be as important like you have thought yourself to be to actually speak for God. So plz do not even try to imply I acted like you...its quite the insult.

    The universe is finite, but I digress... do you mean like your opinion?

    Ok, an expanding, and cooling universe? Does that satisfy you? My opinion is finite as a human being it must be, do you suggest yours is not. Do you transcend empirical reality and go into a transcendant state of being which we mortal humans cannot achieve?

    And as the universe is equally unconcerned with your perception that it requires a god.

    So then if we are both equally irrelevant doesn't our mutual irrelevancy render your argument irrelevant and void? If you had some actual power which humans do not posses then we can talk.

    In other words, your opening statement, "I cannot really believe in a universe without God" should in fact read, "I cannot accept reality for what it is and need to believe in a God."

    I believe in reality, I believe in evolution, I believe in the Big Bang theory,etc I am not a literalist, I do not look to the bible for science lesson's or history lessons but as a guide. Stop assuming you think you know what you are talking about...because u obviously know little.
    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

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  11. #10  
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    Undecided,

    Sorry about any patronizing tone I may have injected. So, what do you want to talk about?
    Huh?
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  12. #11  
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    Actual critiques of my view, not insults thrown against me.
    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

    -Benjamin Disraeli
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  13. #12  
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    Well, the only critique I can offer is that the entire premise of god(s) and anything "supernatural" regarding humans and the universe in total is completely without empirical evidence and therefore baseless.
    Huh?
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    firstly please accept my apologies, I must be dyslexic., I did read the thread title wrong. ie"why am I christian" stupid ah.

    secondly, ok you where not an atheist, but you had doubts and was tinkering with the idea, ok understood, again I apologise.

    undecided said "You surely haven't given me a logical reason why not..."
    to become an atheist, is'nt an easy thing, it goes against everything you've been taught, from day one, you must ostracize yourself from your chidhood friends and family, ( some are lucky, and are brought up clear thinkers with clear thinking parents, thats not to say they indoctrinate there children, there allowed to chose there own path) apart from years of study and questioning, until enlightenment is reached, it is a hard road to travel, especially for those from a very strong religious base..so once there, there is no turning back, apart from a blow to the head that is.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  15. #14  
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    Unlike you I do not imply that I am the only one with a connection with God (not Gods)

    But you do claim to have a connection with god(s), correct?

    nor do I protend to be as important like you have thought yourself to be to actually speak for God.

    Please show me where I claimed to speak with gods? You are putting words in my mouth - stop immediately.

    So plz do not even try to imply I acted like you...its quite the insult.

    No, calling you an ignorant moron is an insult. I would not stoop to such a thing, of course. But it should be important that you recognize the difference.

    Do you transcend empirical reality and go into a transcendant state of being which we mortal humans cannot achieve?

    Huh? What are you talking about?

    So then if we are both equally irrelevant doesn't our mutual irrelevancy render your argument irrelevant and void?

    The only difference is that my argument does not attempt to support god fantasies.

    I believe in reality, I believe in evolution, I believe in the Big Bang theory,etc I am not a literalist, I do not look to the bible for science lesson's or history lessons but as a guide.

    Then your life must be a collection of contradictions. How do you deal with trying to fit a god fantasy into reality, evolution and other such matters?

    Stop assuming you think you know what you are talking about...because u obviously know little.

    Ah yes, the last bastion of a coward - tell the other person they know nothing because their worldviews don't ascribe to your own.

    Yes, you are a true Christian.
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    superluminal

    Well, the only critique I can offer is that the entire premise of god(s) and anything "supernatural" regarding humans and the universe in total is completely without empirical evidence and therefore baseless.

    I agree...I must say that I myself look at religion as another ideology which I follow, as a guide. To me religion is not about God so much as it is about a ethical theory which God happened to provide us. I don't agree with everything the Bible says I am not a Baptist, I believe in the supremacy of science, and I don't deny there are legitimate criticism's of not only the existance of God, but the morals ascribed in the book, trust me I have been very anti-religious until recently. I realized that it is one thing to dislike Chrisitians, Muslims, Jews etc. because lets face it all three practice their religion...wrong, and many within these religions ignore the greater message of the faith, and focus on venemous quotes taken out of context to prove their points. I look at the big picture of the faith, which is tolerance, peace, forgiveness, etc. Do modern day Christians show those virtues? No...but to claim the religion is wrong because of the actions of the semi-literate is doing a disservice to that religion. Also just to tickle some feathers...isn't money also empirically speaking without evidence yet it seems to have power?

    geezer

    to become an atheist, is'nt an easy thing, it goes against everything you've been taught, from day one, you must ostracize yourself from your chidhood friends and family, ( some are lucky, and are brought up clear thinkers with clear thinking parents, thats not to say they indoctrinate there children, there allowed to chose there own path) apart from years of study and questioning, until enlightenment is reached, it is a hard road to travel, especially for those from a very strong religious base..so once there, there is no turning back, apart from a blow to the head that is.

    My sister is an atheist, I do not consider her inferior, deviant in anyway I know she is very intelligent and has very intelligent reasons for disagreeing with the existance of God, some of which I don't contradict either. But imo ppl have the wrong idea about what religion is (at least from my theological perspective), people expect God and religion to save them, or to guide them. When I was a verge atheist I wasn't concerned with whether or not God existed but why did God do nothing to stop the perversion of his faith. All religion and God does imo is offer a path to which one can live and lead a better life, its stoic in the sense that situations are neutral it is how we react to them which makes them positive or negative, same with religion. God like I suggested gave humanity free will to choose what he or she wants to do in their life, and Christianity of the three major religions is the most humane imo and the most authentic expression of faith. What has happened to the faith is the hijacking of it by corrupted Pope's of Europe, and the modern corruption and hjkacking of the faith in the US by the religious right, likewise in Islam with Wahhabi's and the politicalization of the religion. I am completely against the idea of a Church and state because it corrupts both. Secondly I don't agree that once you are an atheist you are never going to be religious again, it happens all the time and those "born agains" are usually the most religious...

    Q

    But you do claim to have a connection with god(s), correct?

    No I never asserted I did, I have never had God talk to me. For all I know it could be a one way street, as you would notice I say "I believe" a lot because I don't know...if I had a connection with God I should know...but I am not that pretentious. Do I think I have a connection? I do, I think everyone does regardless of their belief but no one is in connection with him in the way you are implying.

    Please show me where I claimed to speak with gods? You are putting words in my mouth - stop immediately.

    Show me where I asserted you did speak with God? In that sentence (which was taken out of context) was to suggest that I am not as pretentious as you to actually believe I have a connection with God (universe in ur case).

    No, calling you an ignorant moron is an insult. I would not stoop to such a thing, of course. But it should be important that you recognize the difference.

    I would have prefered "an ignorant moron" as is it so baseless and nonsensical and childish I would have discounted it on its face. To imply that I act like you in relation to ur porported relations with the universe and saying I act the same with God without knowing jack...is a greater insult then some words.

    Huh? What are you talking about?

    Let me explain, you said:

    The universe is finite, but I digress... do you mean like your opinion?
    You seem to know that my opinion is finite and yours (through implication) is not...so are you human or something greater? How can you make this judgement?
    The only difference is that my argument does not attempt to support god fantasies.

    Science is full of fantasy as well, also you seem to think I am just another typical religious person...read my actual theology and you wouldn't waste ur time saying this.

    Then your life must be a collection of contradictions. How do you deal with trying to fit a god fantasy into reality, evolution and other such matters?

    I don't take the Bible literally...read what I write not what you want to see...then we'll talk.

    Ah yes, the last bastion of a coward - tell the other person they know nothing because their worldviews don't ascribe to your own.

    No I didn't call you that because ur view doesn't square with mine...I am not that pathetic. I called you that bc u pretend to know my theory and views without actually ever commenting on it and assuming I am fit into ur little view on what religious people are...that's why you are ignorant. My sister is an atheist...I don't go and call her ignorant I respect if not admire her, so plz u are the "true Christian" here...its funny how the one you hate eventually turns into yourself in the end.
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    Do I think I have a connection? I do, I think everyone does regardless of their belief... I believe in the supremacy of science

    Since that 'connection' is supernatural, science wouldn't detect it as there is no mechanism we possess to "connect" us.

    So many such contradictions appear in religion - how can you possible consider science supreme when it clearly presents these contradictions?

    I am not as pretentious as you to actually believe I have a connection with God (universe in ur case).

    You just said you did have a connection. Well, do you or don't you?

    As for me, I am a result of the universe, it made me from its own substances - that is my connection to it.

    To imply that I act like you in relation to ur porported relations with the universe and saying I act the same with God without knowing jack...is a greater insult then some words.

    I apologize, that was not the intent.

    are you human or something greater? How can you make this judgement?

    I am human. Being human encompasses a great deal that most seem to overlook. The fact that we exist and are a result of an evolutionary process, as unlikely a process to ever be repeated but came about nonetheless, is a tremendous achievement we should all embrace and rejoice.

    But instead, we cast off this amazing feat as a mere flick-of-the-wrist of some supposed invisible entity, defining human frailties as the evil amongst good and twisting our existence into a life of servitude and fear.

    Science is full of fantasy as well

    I thought you considered science "supreme?"

    But do tell, what fanatasies do you see in science?

    I don't take the Bible literally

    Ah, good... then you agree that the Bible is full of myth and should only be used as a guide... to learn life lessons, so to speak? Interesting though that most theists consider the Bible an actual account of events.

    I found, as a child, that Aesop and Grimms offered much more credible and relevant life lessons without the use of invisible beings and miraculous events.

    u are the "true Christian" here...its funny how the one you hate eventually turns into yourself in the end.

    I'll take that as a compliment. If by, "true Christian," you mean that I am living up to my expectations and lack of beliefs, then yes, I agree. But it is far from what I would hate to be.

    What I would really hate to be is one who considers himself pious but does not live up to the expectations, and yet cannot fathom his own conflicting nature.

    That's what I'd really hate to be.
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    Q

    I would ask you to stop misquoting me and taking my words out of context in your vain attempts to prove something...not sure what yet.

    Since that 'connection' is supernatural, science wouldn't detect it as there is no mechanism we possess to "connect" us.

    Same with money...do you deny the power of money? God is like money, they inherently are worthless it is their affect on human psychology which renders them potent, also Gravity we do not see it but it does exist. There are simply somethings that sceince cannot explain, because some things are not easily empirically based does not mean they do not exist. Using that logic what we cannot see does not exist...

    So many such contradictions appear in religion - how can you possible consider science supreme when it clearly presents these contradictions?

    Bc I do not believe in religion as you are presenting it, the stories in the Bible are not for historical reference, but for the moral of the story. Also much of the contradictions occur in the Old Testament, whilst the New Testament is about the individual much more then a society (so contradictions with science are rarer as morality is unexplainable to science...yet do you deny its existance?). Remember that the Old Testament was meant for the people of Israel, the New Testament was meant for everyone meaning that "historical" stories like Moses, etc. aren't relevant outside Israel.

    You just said you did have a connection. Well, do you or don't you?

    If you could read correctly, and read my posts as a whole not as segements misquoting me, then you would see how repeatitively boring you are getting with your dyslexia, let me show you the meaning of the words I used:

    Do I think I have a connection? I do, I think everyone does regardless of their belief
    I think I do...do I know I do? No...this is where my more empirical side comes in. I am not going to say x is truth if I don't know it to be so.

    As for me, I am a result of the universe, it made me from its own substances - that is my connection to it.

    I agree with you...I agree that I am a result of chemical reactions in the universe as well, and we evolutionized from that. I don't personally see how this contradicts my faith, problematically it seems hard to see how a directionless evolution could create something like man. I don't deny evolution, I just happen to believe that God was directing it as I find it much harder to believe in a directionless evolution then the existance of God.

    I am human. Being human encompasses a great deal that most seem to overlook. The fact that we exist and are a result of an evolutionary process, as unlikely a process to ever be repeated but came about nonetheless, is a tremendous achievement we should all embrace and rejoice.

    Which I do...why assume I do not?

    But instead, we cast off this amazing feat as a mere flick-of-the-wrist of some supposed invisible entity, defining human frailties as the evil amongst good and twisting our existence into a life of servitude and fear.

    I disagree with that, that is a very narrow minded, and hyperbolic view of religion. People like Baptists and Islamists (not Muslims) give that impression of religion it is not a coincidence that they are usually the most poorly educated, disenfranchised members of society who seek to get rid of the secular society which rejected them, and the science which de-legitimizes their literalist view of religion. To me that view of religion is missing the point of religion, the Muslims have a concept of ijtihad which is to apply the scriptures to modern realities so the two worlds can be rectified, whilst in another Islamic term is Taqlid which is what I abhorr which is essentially that the word of God is perfect and to blindly follow that faith, to me that is not only dangerous to the society and the individual, but the religion itself. God made us not to be servents to him that is propaganda, if he did why would he give us free will? God made us to improve his creation to reach a higher plain, to test humanities humanity...and we have thus far failed.

    I thought you considered science "supreme?"

    Just bc I believe science is supreme does not mean it is perfect...do you believe that? If so then you are the intellectual equilivent of a religious fundamentalist.

    But do tell, what fanatasies do you see in science?

    Science assumes many things in order to get to its ends, science is a mix of deductive and inquisitive logic which means that one is rationaly based (not empirically thus logical, but not nessecarily right assumptions), and the other is things we can actually prove.

    Ah, good... then you agree that the Bible is full of myth and should only be used as a guide... to learn life lessons, so to speak? Interesting though that most theists consider the Bible an actual account of events.

    Well I am not most theists then am I?

    I found, as a child, that Aesop and Grimms offered much more credible and relevant life lessons without the use of invisible beings and miraculous events.

    Good...I am not here to convert you.

    What I would really hate to be is one who considers himself pious but does not live up to the expectations, and yet cannot fathom his own conflicting nature.

    That's not me...that's what you want me to be so I can fit into your narrow view of religious people.
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    God is like money, they inherently are worthless it is their affect on human psychology which renders them potent

    Money is real - big difference. You compare a horse to a unicorn.

    Gravity we do not see it but it does exist.

    The effects of gravity can be observed, measured and tested. What of the effects of gods? Again, you compare reality with fantasy.

    the stories in the Bible are not for historical reference

    Many theists would disagree.

    Also much of the contradictions occur in the Old Testament, whilst the New Testament is about the individual much more then a society

    You make it sound as if you don't actually believe those books were written by men who were forced to amend those contradictions and do in fact believe that your god needed to make revisions of his own words. Woops.

    Remember that the Old Testament was meant for the people of Israel, the New Testament was meant for everyone meaning that "historical" stories like Moses, etc. aren't relevant outside Israel.

    Again, you don't see the glaring contradiction of what you just stated? Can I ask you or should I ask your god when the next revisions hit the market?

    it seems hard to see how a directionless evolution could create something like man.

    But its not hard to see, the evidence is rock solid. Perhaps you don't understand evolution or you're allowing your fear of your god to reject the evidence? Either way, the "directionless" path of evolution is easy to understand, given the time.

    God made us not to be servents to him that is propaganda, if he did why would he give us free will?

    Quite simple really, religion does a diservice to itself by creating the illusion of free will, where upon further analysis, clearly shows no free will can possibly exist under currently believed deities reigns.

    Just bc I believe science is supreme does not mean it is perfect...do you believe that?

    Perfection has no meaning with science - it is simply a method of understanding our universe, the best method available.

    science is a mix of deductive and inquisitive logic which means that one is rationaly based (not empirically thus logical, but not nessecarily right assumptions)

    As you well know, science will reject the wrong assumptions through experiment and observation, however it cannot reject that which it cannot test or observe, like the supernatural for example, but instead may find evidence that contradicts those supernatural assumptions.
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    Money is real - big difference. You compare a horse to a unicorn.

    The Bible is the equilivent of money in its physical sense...the fact that money exists does not explain its effect, same with the Bible. Both are nothing more then a piece of paper with some "authority" behind it which seems to give it a lot of power...yet I do not see this authority yet are bound to it. Marx explains why money is like God...

    The effects of gravity can be observed, measured and tested. What of the effects of gods? Again, you compare reality with fantasy.

    As can the effects of God on human psychology, and money on human psychology, yet like gravity they empirically speaking do not exist. Like I said before the effects of God can be all around us, I believe that evolution is a directed process, and logically speaking science has not been able to explain the very begining, thus science like religion is equally irrelevant in that sense.

    Many theists would disagree.

    I care why? What do you think I am a robot?

    You make it sound as if you don't actually believe those books were written by men who were forced to amend those contradictions and do in fact believe that your god needed to make revisions of his own words. Woops.

    The New Testament was a revision of the Old Testament as God seemed to have changed his mind, or rather the prevailing material conditions of Roman occupied Palestine demanded the Jewry not fight against the oppressor but to love them, I fully concede that Christianity was not the intent of Jesus he was there to reform Judaism.

    Again, you don't see the glaring contradiction of what you just stated? Can I ask you or should I ask your god when the next revisions hit the market?

    No I don't see this "glaring" contradiction...explain it to me plz.

    But its not hard to see, the evidence is rock solid. Perhaps you don't understand evolution or you're allowing your fear of your god to reject the evidence? Either way, the "directionless" path of evolution is easy to understand, given the time.

    The evidence of evolution is rock solid, I do not believe that "directionless" evolution is as solid as you are suggesting.

    Quite simple really, religion does a diservice to itself by creating the illusion of free will, where upon further analysis, clearly shows no free will can possibly exist under currently believed deities reigns.

    I've struggled with the problem of determinism and free will, I asked myself...if we had free will yet everything is determined to happen a certain why to reach the end times...do we really have free will? That's a question I will admit...I cannot answer sufficently at this point.

    Perfection has no meaning with science - it is simply a method of understanding our universe, the best method available.

    You were implying that science was perfect...this is your contradiction you say one thing...by imply something else.

    As you well know, science will reject the wrong assumptions through experiment and observation, however it cannot reject that which it cannot test or observe, like the supernatural for example, but instead may find evidence that contradicts those supernatural assumptions.

    Science may reject the observable assumptions but it cannot the rational...science is based on the belief of rationality and logic (which may be logically right, but empirically nonsense), so in the end is it different from religion? Not really...
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    Both are nothing more then a piece of paper with some "authority" behind it which seems to give it a lot of power.

    The authority behind money is objective while the authority behind the bible is strictly subjective.

    yet like gravity they empirically speaking do not exist.

    Empircally speaking, you are wrong.

    science has not been able to explain the very begining, thus science like religion is equally irrelevant in that sense.

    Religion actually does try to explain the very beginning. At least science is honest to state that is just doesn't know... yet.

    I care why? What do you think I am a robot?

    No, but it does show that theists do not agree with one another, hence knowledge of god is not common knowledge to all, as it should be.

    The New Testament was a revision of the Old Testament as God seemed to have changed his mind

    That would refute the idea that god is omniscient.

    The evidence of evolution is rock solid, I do not believe that "directionless" evolution is as solid as you are suggesting.

    Unfortunately, you are unable to provide and evidence whatsoever that could suggest otherwise, thus it can only be pure speculation on your part.

    do we really have free will?

    Certainly not if god created and is in all things.

    science is based on the belief of rationality and logic

    More precisely, "science is based on rationality and logic." Belief need not enter into scientific reasoning.
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    Why is it such a huge crime to believe in God and science? Evolution in and of itself doesn't prove or disprove God, why does everyone act like it's one or the other. There are things religion can't explain and there are things science can't explain, seems to me there are no perfect theories. Isn't that the point?

    And, for the record, as long as we as humans can't comprehend everything, I'd rather put my faith in God than men.
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    The authority behind money is objective while the authority behind the bible is strictly subjective.

    The authority behind money is not objective, it is subjective as well because people can easy not use money. If you throughout economic history many times currencies were discreadited and no longer used...alas the use of barter. The authority behind money is not objective as it is based on a belief in the innate value of money. But the actual money itself is useless, as is the Bible something greater then itself must give it authority, that authority exists in the human mind.

    Empircally speaking, you are wrong.

    What I meant was you don't actually see something pulling us down, for all we know...it could be God.

    Religion actually does try to explain the very beginning. At least science is honest to state that is just doesn't know... yet.

    Religion really doesn't either its rather ambigious as well, it claims God always was, he has no begining or end...the Garden of Eden was not the begining per se.

    No, but it does show that theists do not agree with one another, hence knowledge of god is not common knowledge to all, as it should be.

    Do scientists agree on everything? No one agrees on anything, everything is subjective because humans are incapable of experiencing objectivity.

    That would refute the idea that god is omniscient.

    How?

    Unfortunately, you are unable to provide and evidence whatsoever that could suggest otherwise, thus it can only be pure speculation on your part.

    The burden of proof is not on me, its on you. You are the one who suggested that a directionless evolution was supported by rock hard evidence...I said I didn't think it was that strong...you must show me otherwise as you started the absolutist stance not I.

    Certainly not if god created and is in all things.

    That's point is irrelevant to the question of free will, God's existance in all of us does not mean he is controlling us.

    More precisely, "science is based on rationality and logic." Belief need not enter into scientific reasoning.

    But it does...the basis of science is the belief of the superiority of logic and rationalism, which is not always right through empirical observation. I don't see the difference btwn religion and science in this regard.
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    that authority (Bible) exists in the human mind.

    Of course, as does all religion - I can't argue with you there.

    What I meant was you don't actually see something pulling us down, for all we know...it could be God.

    You can't see the air you breathe, yet it keeps you alive - is that god also?

    Considering though, that gravity did play a big part in the develpment of the universe, I might tend to agree with you from that perspective.

    Religion really doesn't either its rather ambigious as well

    See Genesis.

    Do scientists agree on everything?

    Not everything - but do agree on a great many observable things.

    The burden of proof is not on me, its on you. You are the one who suggested that a directionless evolution was supported by rock hard evidence...I said I didn't think it was that strong...

    Actually, I understand current theories on evolution and whole-heartedly agree with the findings - one cannot ignore the conclusive evidence. YOU are the one who does not think accepted theories are that 'strong.' Yah verily, the burden of proof is upon you to show either why accepted theory is not strong or provide a new theory based on the evidence.

    That's point is irrelevant to the question of free will, God's existance in all of us does not mean he is controlling us.

    Good point - I'll give you that one.

    I don't see the difference btwn religion and science in this regard.

    Then you don't understand science in that regard. Science does not support any kind of belief system - it is a system in itself; a process to test and observe that which is in nature, so that we better understand how nature works.
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    And, for the record, as long as we as humans can't comprehend everything, I'd rather put my faith in God than men.

    That line of ignorant thinking is defeatist and has been poisoned by religion - it would ultimately lead to the end of mankind.
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    Did I not ask you to stop misquoting, manipulating, and generally stop misunderstanding what I say ala:

    that authority (Bible) exists in the human mind.
    Plz stop or don't bother talking to me...

    You can't see the air you breathe, yet it keeps you alive - is that god also?

    Thats not true, and you know it. We can see air in its molecular form can we not? Gravity, like God is absent of any chemical composition yet we assume they exist. Like I've been implying all along...you may call it Gravity someone else may call it God, but neither can be proven to exist. We can see the effect we don't see the source...doesn't mean the source doesn't exist.

    Considering though, that gravity did play a big part in the develpment of the universe, I might tend to agree with you from that perspective.

    Are Gravity and God interchangable? Maybe since Gravity is so intergral to the development of universe, may that is God in action since we can't see either? lol...only a weird theory.

    See Genesis.

    Genesis does not explain the existence of God, only the creation of Earth and mankind and the nominal universe. It also does not speak of the VERY begining. Also about Genesis the Catholic Church says it is only a story not a fact...religion and science are not mutually opposed imo.

    Not everything - but do agree on a great many observable things.

    Same with religion...not everyone disagree's most ppl would agree on most things. So you criticize religion for a folly that science shares...hypocritical is it not?

    Actually, I understand current theories on evolution and whole-heartedly agree with the findings - one cannot ignore the conclusive evidence.

    How can I disagree if I have not seen this evidenced to me...I haven't as yet rejected the validity of your rhectoric...note:

    The evidence of evolution is rock solid, I do not believe that "directionless" evolution is as solid as you are suggesting.
    Where did I make an assertion deserving of support? You did on the other hand:

    Either way, the "directionless" path of evolution is easy to understand, given the time.
    Well you say its easy...lets see, all I said is I doubt how rock solid it is. I never asserted anything...thus I have nothing to prove.

    Then you don't understand science in that regard. Science does not support any kind of belief system - it is a system in itself; a process to test and observe that which is in nature, so that we better understand how nature works.

    Science unto itself is amoral I agree...but just because it is amoral does not mean it lacks a belief system. That belief system is the belief in the supremacy of logic, rationality, technology, those things are not innately valuable science puts value on them like religion does morality...etc.
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    Gravity, like God is absent of any chemical composition yet we assume they exist.

    Gravity does exist, that is a major flaw in your argument. Why would we be spending money on scientific equipment to study its effects?

    religion and science are not mutually opposed imo.

    No, they're just mutually incompatible.

    How can I disagree if I have not seen this evidenced to me...

    Then you are in no position to comment on the validity of religion if you haven't looked at the evidence of evolution.

    Well you say its easy...lets see, all I said is I doubt how rock solid it is. I never asserted anything...thus I have nothing to prove.

    Silly in the extreme, how can you doubt that which you admit to knowing nothing about.

    science puts value on them like religion does morality

    I see that you've been merely yanking my chain. You know nothing about the topics you profess to doubt (science, evolution) yet continue to make comments that are not relevant to those topics.

    Clearly, you're wasting my time.

    You have explained to us in your opening post why you are Christian. The answer to that is simple - you don't know any other way.
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    Gravity does exist, that is a major flaw in your argument. Why would we be spending money on scientific equipment to study its effects?

    The point I am making is that we assume that we aren't studying something else, like God for instance. Just because x has a different name from God doesn't nessecary mean it isn't God. The problem with gravity is that it not seen as a fact it is a theory as to how it works and where it comes from, much like God. Who isn't to say that we don't see God in evolution? I believe we do...you may disagree but that's not a fact, neither is mine.

    No, they're just mutually incompatible.

    What confuses me then is why so many scientists are still religious people?

    Then you are in no position to comment on the validity of religion if you haven't looked at the evidence of evolution.

    Not evolution, what you were saying about the evidence of a "directionless" evolution. Learn how to read...

    Silly in the extreme, how can you doubt that which you admit to knowing nothing about.

    I am not talking about evolution genius...read what I write next time.

    I see that you've been merely yanking my chain. You know nothing about the topics you profess to doubt (science, evolution) yet continue to make comments that are not relevant to those topics.

    You are saying that bc you don't like what I am saying about your belief system (science), and you are saying this bc you are obviously incapable of reading.

    Clearly, you're wasting my time.

    Said your english teacher...

    You have explained to us in your opening post why you are Christian. The answer to that is simple - you don't know any other way.

    I do not appreciate people who cannot read...telling me what I think.
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