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Thread: Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it)

  1. #1 Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it) 
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it)

    Here are several examples that can help you to understand how religion works in our world today.


    Example 1

    Let's say that I tell you the following story:

    * There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
    * He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
    * During the year, he and the elves build toys.
    * Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
    * He puts the sack in his sleigh.
    * He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
    * He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
    * He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
    * He leaves toys for the children of the household.
    * He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
    * He does this all around the world in one night.
    * Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

    This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

    But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

    What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

    Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

    Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

    * "But Marshall, how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

    * "How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

    * "How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

    * "Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

    * "How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

    * "Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

    These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

    Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

    Now let me show you another example...

    Example 2

    Imagine that I tell you the following story:

    * I was in my room one night.
    * Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
    * Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
    * He tells me an amazing story.
    * He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
    * On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
    * These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
    * Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
    * Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
    * Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
    * I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
    * And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
    * I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.

    Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds delusional, doesn't it?

    You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, and we simply have not found it yet. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

    Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

    What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

    If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

    Example 3

    Imagine that I tell you this story:

    * A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.
    * A very bright flash of light appeared.
    * A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.
    * Then the man asked, "What should I read?"
    * The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."
    * The man ran home to his wife.
    * While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.
    * At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.
    * Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.
    * Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
    * The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.
    * The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.
    [Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]

    What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.

    But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

    Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

    If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" (see Chapter 27) and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

    An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

    One final example

    Now let me tell you one final story:

    * God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.
    * Mary and her fiancé, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
    * God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.
    * In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel (see Chapter 16) in an attempt to kill Jesus.
    * As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said (see Chapter 18).
    * This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.
    * But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.
    * His body was placed in a tomb.
    * But three days later, the tomb was empty.
    * And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.
    * Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.
    * Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.
    * This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.
    * The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.

    This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours (see the prior 25 chapters...) and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you.

    Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story and the Mormon story and the Muslim story.

    You can see where this is heading. There's not a good way to sugar-coat it. There are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, Christians are delusional. Christians are as delusional as the Muslims and the Mormons.

    How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that Christians are delusional? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. The Christian story is imaginary. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note that:

    * The miracles are supposed to "prove" that Jesus is God, but, predictably, they left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today

    * Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today

    * Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered

    * The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions

    * And so on.

    In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined.

    Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. If you are a Christian, I am saying that you are delusional. At some level, because you have just seen how delusional the Mormons and the Muslims are, you know that I am correct. But, if you are a practicing Christian, you are in the process of rejecting what I am saying to you. You may even be mad at me. You may right now be trying to create rationalizations to "prove" that Jesus really did "appear to people after his death" and "ascend into heaven." The fact that you are trying to rationalize the Christian story, even though you so easily rejected the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, shows you the depth of your delusion. And now you are mad at me for saying that.

    Try, just for a moment, to get up above this situation and look at yourself. It is pretty interesting, isn't it? There is some part of your brain that knows that I am right. But there is another, much larger part of your brain that is clinging to the delusion. Why? Have you ever thought about that? Why is your brain doing this? You KNOW that the Muslims and the Mormons are delusional. At some level, therefore, you know that you are delusional too. The Christian story is just as imaginary. But it is so hard to accept that because... because... why? Why is this happening?

    Discovering for yourself the reason why this is happening to you is a big part of this book. You are going to learn why your brain is doing this to you, and how you can stop it. In other words, you will learn how to think rationally about your religion.

    Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Compare Jesus' story to the story of Santa Claus, and the story of the golden plates, and the story of Gabriel's revelations. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself:

    * Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed? - No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his "miracles" left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing.

    * Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven? - There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.

    * You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on "faith."

    No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc. But two billion people do believe in those ideas. They are called Christians. Those billions believe in Jesus so strongly that many will hold you in contempt if you do not believe what they do.

    The question I would ask you to consider right now is simple. Let me ask it in two parts:

    * How do Christians look at the stories behind the Muslim faith and the Mormon faith and know, with total certainty, that those stories are fairy tales?

    * How do Muslims look at the stories behind the Christian faith and the Mormon faith and know, with total certainty, that those stories are fairy tales?

    Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? For example:

    * Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time.

    * Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing.

    * Christians know that when Muslims blow themselves up with suicide bombs, that they do not go to heaven and receive 72 virgins as their reward.

    * Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time -- otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession.

    Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind to the delusions of their own faith.

    To an unbiased observer, it is easy to see what is going on. All of these stories -- Santa, Smith, Mohammed and Jesus -- are fairy tales. All four of the stories are equally delusional.

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

    (edited=missing link)


    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  3. #2  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    The stories are delusions.

    To say the people are delusional, however, might be to confuse the various versions of 'is' - are you saying they are existentially delusional, or only with regard to this matter?


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  4. #3 Re: Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it) 
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    All Geezer is saying is "Because some people get it wrong, everyone gets it wrong"

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    What book did this come from? Very well put. I went through something similar, but on my own. Alas, I don't think very many believers will get your post and do a serious evaluation of their faith.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    The stories are delusions.

    To say the people are delusional, however, might be to confuse the various versions of 'is' - are you saying they are existentially delusional, or only with regard to this matter?
    in regard to gods, people are that's the whole point.
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." just about says it all, if there is no evidence for a thing regardless of it being a religion or not, it's a delusion.
    It's that simple.

    there are nearly 300 religions, around today, with nearly 40,000 sub divisions, all believing different from the other, and this doesn't included the thousands of ancient religions.
    one may be the right one, if that is so it would probably be the most logical and insignificant of them all.
    to have a strongly held belief, without evidence is quite clearly delusional.
    especially if it contains, zombies, talking animals and plants, all in all, absolute impossibilitie's.

    Quote Originally Posted by LG/punarmusiko
    All Geezer is saying is "Because some people get it wrong, everyone gets it wrong"
    no completely wrong, read it again it is quite clear whats being said.
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrio
    The stories are delusions.

    To say the people are delusional, however, might be to confuse the various versions of 'is' - are you saying they are existentially delusional, or only with regard to this matter?
    in regard to gods, people are that's the whole point.
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." just about says it all, if there is no evidence for a thing regardless of it being a religion or not, it's a delusion.
    It's that simple.

    there are nearly 300 religions, around today, with nearly 40,000 sub divisions, all believing different from the other, and this doesn't included the thousands of ancient religions.
    one may be the right one, if that is so it would probably be the most logical and insignificant of them all.
    to have a strongly held belief, without evidence is quite clearly delusional.
    especially if it contains, zombies, talking animals and plants, all in all, absolute impossibilitie's.

    Quote Originally Posted by LG/punarmusiko
    All Geezer is saying is "Because some people get it wrong, everyone gets it wrong"
    no completely wrong, read it again it is quite clear whats being said.
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."
    Geezer

    Not attempting to attack you. I know the definition of 'delusion' - I'm just concerned about the use of the word 'delusional' - since that seems to refer to the person as a whole. It lends itself, alas, to the hoary alleged argument that Jesus was either a madman or the son of god - you know how silly that stuff is. I was simply looking for the clarification (which you graciously provided) that when you used the term adjective delusional (as opposed to the noun delusion) you were referring to people only in the context of that particular delusion.
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    if you dont fancy reading, listen and watch
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer

    Quote Originally Posted by LG/punarmusiko
    All Geezer is saying is "Because some people get it wrong, everyone gets it wrong"
    no completely wrong, read it again it is quite clear whats being said.
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."
    I think you have to highlight the invalidating evidence (in regards to god) because I didn't encounter any
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    Oh, um, gee, that must be because you don't read. Both this forum and the internet has had a wealth of discussions. Each of which ended in the non-creationists favor.

    It isn't our fault you remain purposefully ignorant by keeping yourself unaware. Unlike you, other people are...um...self aware? Seriously. How much fucking brains does it take to ponder a subjects validity? You have the most powerful resource tool at your fingertips. USE IT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it)
    Here are several examples that can help you to understand how religion
    Example 1

    And I try to talk about
    .....
    .....
    First,
    Geezer, you asked me to be intelligent by putting strong proof and argument..
    Many of you have calling me "copy paster" in the beginning
    But what about that :

    http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/your-delusion.htm

    This is not intelligent from you, Try again!!!

    Those are not your own words, so are you responsible in what you have try to talk about. ------------------

    In all case, by reading this "article", I felt that the one which wrote it, is very weak because the one who believe only in what he should see by his own eyes, has a very superficial view.

    You should Live one billione or trillion year to be present in all the facts which happened in human history (Adem, prophets, miracles, wars.....)

    But, you and I and all of us, believe of what was said to us about hisory, about the 2nd war, the american revolution, the roman colonization, the cristoph colomb discovery, the pharaon, the cartahgen, hannibal, .... many of stories)

    But, when our mind doesn't assume miraculous stories (prophecy, Angels, GOD,..) we diesbelive all kind of these
    But, you doesn't see that our brain is limited, our senses are limited, there are many things which exist and we ignore them because we haven't seen them before.

    Man is not powerful, because his ability is limited,

    Our vision is limited, we can't see all the light waves or microscopic thing
    Our hearing is limited, we can't hear sounds happening far away in many kilometers..
    ...

    Indeed, the story of Prophet Muhammed is the production of superpowerful one (he is the GOD like i believe, he is Allah), He is not limited like us. So, miraculous matter in our vision is obvious in HIS VISION.

    You Never asked yourself about the sun (15 000 000° C (27 000 000° F),340 billion times the atmospheric pression of earth), how it is miraculous!!!
    You never asked yourself about the precision in your body, how it is miraculous!!
    You never asked yourself about twelve planets turning around a big star named the sun in many orbits with periodic movement, how it is miraculous!!
    You never asked yourself about the sea, the plants, the animals, the mountain, the rivers, ... :: This seems evident or not miraculous, but How Superficial view have you!! All this creation and things and all this universe is miraculous, because neither nature by itsel or coincidence by itself can maintain and create and control All that.
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    Geezer, copies one thing for the sake of discussion and to prove a point, is called a copy-paster? This ONE article might turn out to be an interesting discussion. He said it was long, but worth it. That's probably because he has allready read the article and found it interesting and therefore put it up here for discussion...

    There's nothing wrong in that.
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Understanding Delusion(long post but worth it)
    Here are several examples that can help you to understand how religion
    Example 1

    And I try to talk about
    .....
    .....
    First,
    Geezer, you asked me to be intelligent by putting strong proof and argument..
    Many of you have calling me "copy paster" in the beginning
    But what about that

    http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/your-delusion.htm

    This is not intelligent from you, Try again!!!
    we all copy paste from time to time to make a point, and I never called you names, now did I.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Those are not your own words, so are you responsible in what you have try to talk about. ------------------
    no but posted strictly for debate purposes, lol if any.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    In all case, by reading this "article", I felt that the one which wrote it, is very weak because the one who believe only in what he should see by his own eyes, has a very superficial view.
    in your opinion, but it is the correct objective view.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You should Live one billione or trillion year to be present in all the facts which happened in human history (Adem, prophets, miracles, wars.....)
    dont follow, theres no evidence for this, elaborate.
    Supply a link to the evdence, if you have some.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    But, you and I and all of us, believe of what was said to us about hisory, about the 2nd war, the american revolution, the roman colonization, the cristoph colomb discovery, the pharaon, the cartahgen, hannibal, .... many of stories)
    yes because there's evidence for all of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    But, when our mind doesn't assume miraculous stories (prophecy, Angels, GOD,..) we diesbelive all kind of these
    well of course because theres (dare I say it again) no evidence for any of that. are you getting the idea here, without evidence subjective, with evidence objective. It is that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    But, you doesn't see that our brain is limited, our senses are limited, there are many things which exist and we ignore them because we haven't seen them before.
    that may be so, but until such time when these miraclous things you believe are proven, it is foolish to believe such absurdities.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Man is not powerful, because his ability is limited, Our vision is limited, we can't see all the light waves or microscopic thing
    Our hearing is limited, we can't hear sounds happening far away in many kilometers..
    ...
    in comparison to what!
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Indeed, the story of Prophet Muhammed is the production of superpowerful one (he is the GOD like i believe, he is Allah), He is not limited like us. So, miraculous matter in our vision is obvious in HIS VISION.
    yes this is your fantasy, but I live in the real world and dont buy into supernatural mumbo jumbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You Never asked yourself about the sun (15 000 000° C (27 000 000° F),340 billion times the atmospheric pression of earth),
    yes in the science class.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    how it is miraculous!!!
    yes but I dont put supernatural connotation's on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You never asked yourself about the precision in your body,
    yes in the biology class
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    how it is miraculous!!
    yes but I dont put supernatural connotation's on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You never asked yourself about twelve planets turning around a big star named the sun in many orbits with periodic movement,
    yes in the science class
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    how it is miraculous!!
    yes but I dont put supernatural connotation's on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You never asked yourself about the sea, the plants, the animals, the mountain, the rivers, ... ::
    oh yes, I love watching natural history programs, and reading non-fiction
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    This seems evident or not miraculous,
    why because your fantasy makes you feel all warm and fuffy, get real.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    but How Superficial view have you!!
    I think you will find that yours is the superfical view, your blinkered, you dont look to learn, you look to praise, putting a god did it slant on everything is childish and irrational, apart from being completely delusional
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    All this creation and things and all this universe is miraculous, because neither nature by itsel or coincidence by itself can maintain and create and control All that.
    why not, it's done fine so far, adding your fantasy, make no alterations what so ever.

    edit - Typos
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  15. #14  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    The condemnations of religion that I see on The Science Forum fall, for the most part into condemnations of fundamentalist religion. From my perspective those jumping on this bandwagon display a singlular arrogance, blended with a surprising ignorance. This is a mix that is certainly self satisfying, but on the whole unconvincing.

    From my perspective (please don't rush to tell me that this an opinion, that my perspective may be biased, etc. I know that.) ...from my perspective humans are innately spiritual. This spirituality manifests itself in many ways: it can be the sense of wonder one feels when viewing a sunset; the awe you experience when considering the complexity of the biochemistry of a cell; the humility that suffuses you when contemplating the immensity of the Universe; or the wonder that man is able to measure and probe that immensity.

    This spirituality is arguably related to the development of language, the quest for explanation, and the development of culture through the mediating influence of ethics. The formalisation of this spirituality is religion. Just as culture arises through the expression of innate drives, religion tends to arise as a formal expression of this spirituality. If I am a forest dweller in the Amazon I may express my experience my spirtuality while observing the interaction of creatures and plants in my environment. I shall express my spritiuality, perhaps aided by natural drugs, in a religious cermeony that evokes that interaction I have observed.

    If I am an average bloke I shall likely accept the stories of the tree spirit at face value. If I thnk a liitle more deeply I shall recognise that as metaphor. Shall I discard my naitve religion for this reason? Many shall, but in so doing they lose something of their culture, their heritage, their community. Others will accept that religion as a metaphorical, cultural expression of their innate spirituality.

    Thus, condeming all religion as delusional rather misses the point. It misses the point by such a wide margin I begin to wonder if my assessment that all humans are innately spritual may be flawed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Many of you thought like this : " I never believe unless I see it by my own eyes" ---> what selfihness, what ignorance, what desulision, what astray are you,.......
    Personally, I would never accept something as subject to the errors of detection and perception as witnessing something 'with my own eyes'. Such subjective evidence is notoriously unreliable and while it should not be discarded it requires substantial independent observation in order to be validated.
    And yet you wish me to accept the writings of an individual who claims they received a revelation from God. Petulantly declaring we are mistaken in our skepticism does not make it so.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Supply a link to the evdence, if you have some.
    and the link/the evidence is where.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    In all field of industry, in order to prevent the safety, it's evident to put an urgence plan for evacuation or for fighting the disasters. The workteam are already able to confront this bad scenario once it happens.

    Have you prepared any plan to be in safety after your death?

    Else, you risk to be surprised.

    Me, i have prepared one.

    --> It's ISLAM.
    Pascals wager is a poor arguement.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    As you praise for atheism
    there no need to praise atheism it isn't a religion it is just the natural way of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    and polytheism and diesbeliving thought.
    I am encouraging all of you to Islam, to monotheism.
    what is it about having no believe in allah/god/gods/fantasies that you dont understand, do I need to give you the dictionary definition, before you understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Why you don't understand that we have a mission in this life,
    I do, but it does not include irrationalities, your welcome to believe whatever you want, but dont try to posit it up as truth, it may be what you tfantasize truth to be, but not me, ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    that one day we will be judged...Are this not evident for you ?
    no.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    What kind of arguments do you believe in ?
    anything provable and verifiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    What is your definition for "Evidence" ?
    again provable or verifiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    You want that Allah appears to you to believe in HIM ?
    as he is nonexistent it's extremely unlikely, If I wanted to fantasize, I can think of much much better things.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    I give you the answer for the last question, said by Our GOD, in his book sent to the humanity through Muhammed :

    1.
    That high ranked Book (Quran) whereof there is no place of doubt, in it there is guidance to the God-fearing.

    Who believe without seeing, and establish prayer and spend in Our path, out of Our provided subsistence.

    And who believe in what has been sent down towards you, O beloved prophet! And what has been sent down before you and are convinced of the Last Day.

    They alone are on the guidance from their Lord and they alone are the gainers.

    2.
    Undoubtedly, those who fear their Lord unseen, for them is forgiveness and great reward.
    3.
    Whoever feared the All Affectionate in the unseen and came to Him with a pertinent heart.

    It will be said to them, 'Enter the Paradise in peace'. This is the day of Eternity.

    For them there is whatever they desire and with Us there is yet more than that.
    totally irrelevant, pure hearsay, not verifiable or provable.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    ==> So, to worth the rewards and the paradise, you have to believe in GOD without seeing HIM, else if GOD appears, it will be no exam in this life so you will believe by force (((((((I swear one Day you will Recognize what is ALLAH, you will see how is evident and very prooved what I was showing you ))))))). It will be never unfair on the one of you, it will be justice, that's what i believe in.
    as I said I can think of much better things to fantasize about.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    So, evidence, is proportional to the faith and the intelligence.
    you can have all the subjective evidence you want, it wont ever become objective.
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Many of you thought like this : " I never believe unless I see it by my own eyes" ---> what selfihness, what ignorance, what desulision, what astray are you, if you think that there is no evidence to the existence of the Afterlife, the angels, the prophets, the holy books, the paradise, the hell and THE EXISTOR, THE ONE.
    why, it's the clear headed and clear thinking way to do things, you should not let your fantasies rule your head.
    thats delusional.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    I don't know who said this but I thought it was interesting.

    Even the most advanced society is one generation from anarchy.

    Our observational window is only open for a portion of a life time.

    By manipulating the perception of a culture the "viewpoint" of the world can be changed.

    Granted these are cheesy examples...

    "The Matrix" is a picture of a social delusion.
    "The Village" is a picture of a social delusion.

    ----------------------------------
    One of you said,"

    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."

    This definition starts with a presumtion of a "false" belief.
    (Is a belief false just because you don't believe it?)

    This leads us to the evidence. I don't believe I have ever seen valid evidence against the God I submit to. I believe something you don't as a result of personal experience so why do I have to be the delusional one.

    I constantly reevaluate my faith and have been researching evidence seeking not only why I feel that I am right but actively seeking out where I could be wrong. If I am wrong I want to know it.

    When people "attack" God they usually start with Mass religions that are so messed up its easy to pic them apart. Thats the same thing Jesus did (if you believe he even existed).

    There are billions of lies in this world... doesn't it make sense that there might be one truth behind all the messed up crap that has happened at the hands of "sinful people"


    Gotta run. back later
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    One of you said,"
    Delusion: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."
    This definition starts with a presumtion of a "false" belief.
    (Is a belief false just because you don't believe it?)
    that was me, it was the dictionary definition.
    To clarify: A delusion is a false belief held in the face of available evidence to the contrary, or lack of evidence for verification. It is not used to refer to any false belief, though, but only to beliefs that are transparently false or ridiculous, held because of irrationality on the believer's part. A person who holds on to delusions is said to be delusional.
    does that clear it up for you.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    The assumption that every religion in the world spawned from a "false belief" is where the issue is.

    I don't have a problem with the definition. I don't think the definition should be applied to my belief (If I did I wouldn't believe it). I do see a vast difference between Santa Clause and Jesus. I also see a vast difference between Catholocism and true christianity, and jehovah's witness, and mormonism, and etc etc etc... There are many false religions, non religions and trains of thought that spawned from one truth.

    If it is arrogant to believe you know the truth isn't everyone showing the same arrogance when they state their opinion of what is true?

    I have evaluated and reevaluated what I believe. Even now I am attempting to learn all I can about evolutionary theory and cosmology. In all the places I looked for evidence for or against a creators existence, I found lots of people screaming at me that I'm wrong, delusional, or stupid for believeing in God. Thats ok. I love those people anyway (1,2,3, awwwww) There are lots of people who say that the evidence is overwhelming against God. I have never seen what I believe to be acceptable proof. Not because I refuse to see it but because I simply don't agree with some of the conclusions of scientists or non believers in general. I agree that there are negative things about religion. I just don't believe there are negative things about God. People make all kinds of claims against Him but His authority is above the authorities of this world. Bobs oppinion has no effect on the soverignty or the being of God.

    PS Sheesh am I tired. sorry i'f i'm incoherant. mega sleepy
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    The assumption that every religion in the world spawned from a "false belief" is where the issue is.
    what assumption, is there any evidence to the contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I don't have a problem with the definition. I don't think the definition should be applied to my belief (If I did I wouldn't believe it).
    thats the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I do see a vast difference between Santa Clause and Jesus.
    why explain.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I also see a vast difference between Catholocism and true christianity, and jehovah's witness, and mormonism, and etc etc etc... There are many false religions, non religions and trains of thought that spawned from one truth.
    and why do you think yours is the right one. what makes the others wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    If it is arrogant to believe you know the truth
    I dont know the truth, but I'm not foolish enough to accept fantasy as a reality, however you show the very same arrogance by stating yours is different from santa, etc...
    especially without any validating evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    isn't everyone showing the same arrogance when they state their opinion of what is true?
    yes especially anyone whos states it without provable and verifiable evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I have evaluated and reevaluated what I believe. Even now I am attempting to learn all I can about evolutionary theory and cosmology. In all the places I looked for evidence for or against a creators existence, I found lots of people screaming at me that I'm wrong, delusional, or stupid for believeing in God. Thats ok. I love those people anyway (1,2,3, awwwww) There are lots of people who say that the evidence is overwhelming against God. I have never seen what I believe to be acceptable proof.
    thats because you wont find any, it is nonsensical to ask of prove of nonexistence, so you would rather believe in a God simply because there no prove he does or doesn't exist. isn't that the meaning of delusional, something that is believed to be true or real but that is actually false or unreal in the face of available evidence to the contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Not because I refuse to see it but because I simply don't agree with some of the conclusions of scientists or non believers in general. I agree that there are negative things about religion. I just don't believe there are negative things about God. People make all kinds of claims against Him but His authority is above the authorities of this world.
    and the evidence for this is where.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Bobs opinion has no effect on the soverignty or the being of God.
    who's bob! and where is the evidence that God has sovereignty.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Couldbewrong, could you please explain why you believe in a god and, presumably, Jesus? I think I might have gone through the stage where you are now on my path to atheism. By saying this, I am not trying to imply that you will end up an atheist. This is also not meant to be an attack on your reasons for believing. Have you witnessed something seemingly miraculous? Do you feel a strange sense of energy and purpose in your life? Were you born into religion, or did it develop later? I also assume you do not subscribe to any particular religion?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Thus, condeming all religion as delusional rather misses the point. It misses the point by such a wide margin I begin to wonder if my assessment that all humans are innately spritual may be flawed.
    I will admit to religion-bashing from time to time - but that's simply because organised religion is so hateful to me (in its effects upon people, and women and children in particular). But I tend not to jump up and down saying "Hence all religion is stupid" (even though I may be thinking that), simply because of the standards of debate sort of idea.

    I must, however, firmly state that either your assessment is flawed, as you suspected (though I believe your use was meant ironically), or I am not a human, but some form of Universal Turing Machine with a particularly sophisticated algorithm, because I am not now, nor ever will be "spiritual", unless the definition of spiritual is extended so far that it becomes meaningless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Many of you thought like this : " I never believe unless I see it by my own eyes" ---> what selfihness, what ignorance, what desulision, what astray are you, if you think that there is no evidence to the existence of the Afterlife, the angels, the prophets, the holy books, the paradise, the hell and THE EXISTOR, THE ONE.
    Oh, so there is evidence? Are you planning to share the evidence with us? Because so far all you have provided in the way of evidence is a few "scientific" facts from the koran that anyone could have easily figured out. Do you actually have any evidence that your ancient book of magic stories should be taken any more seriously than any other ancient book of magic stories?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Oh, um, gee, that must be because you don't read. Both this forum and the internet has had a wealth of discussions. Each of which ended in the non-creationists favor.

    It isn't our fault you remain purposefully ignorant by keeping yourself unaware. Unlike you, other people are...um...self aware? Seriously. How much fucking brains does it take to ponder a subjects validity? You have the most powerful resource tool at your fingertips. USE IT!
    I've pondered it and its not even an argument

    he says there is evidence but it is just a suggestion

    just like I can show evidence that people have been mixed up in thinking they are some where else - does that mean if you think you are in NY I can prove you are wrong on the strength of this evidence?

    Trying to prove that everyone is wrong because some are wrong is a waste of time

    Its almost on the same level as namecalling
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Couldbewrong, could you please explain why you believe in a god and, presumably, Jesus? I think I might have gone through the stage where you are now on my path to atheism. By saying this, I am not trying to imply that you will end up an atheist. This is also not meant to be an attack on your reasons for believing. Have you witnessed something seemingly miraculous? Do you feel a strange sense of energy and purpose in your life? Were you born into religion, or did it develop later? I also assume you do not subscribe to any particular religion?
    I am utterly unoffended : P

    I was raised in a family that claimed a belief in God but showed no daily evidence of that belief. I had a Bible but that wasn't the emphasis of my family focus and as a result we or I seldom opened it. I started searching for truth early in life as I studied dinosaurs and history I grew up in public school not private/christian and had all the stuff available to me in a standard semi urban/beach town. Alchohol by age 8, sex by age 9, never tried drugs thanks to Nancy Raegan (Just say no). As I grew and studied I found problems with some of the science I had been taught as I have always been very interested in finding the whole truth and understanding every aspect of something. Granted my thurst for information may have been left wanting because of uninformed teachers. I usually knew more "facts" about science than my science teachers. When I questioned them it was either obviouse they were stumped or they fidgeted for an answer that bordered on or were clearly "made up". For this reason I started learning from research and study as opposed to standard mentoring. I started reading books about all kinds of topics. When I started reading the Bible on my own and visiting churches I approached that with the same desire for the whole truth I implemented in my desire to be educated. What I found was the same truth that was evidenced by my own family. Many people claimed belief in "God" but had no real idea what it was about. They also made up answers when they didn't know the truth. As I studied the history of the church and the Bible (various versions) I saw exactly what alot of the people here gripe about. The catholic church is so far from scripture it could be called a seperate religion all together. Mormonism... wow. Jehovahs witness eek. Islam... buddah... etc etc etc etc etc. So much stuff that just doesn't make sense or add up. So I started tracing backward from "today" back to the beginning and mapped out when and where religions "began" I compared religious and non religious histories and tried to search out the truth from the HUGE PILE OF UNTRUTH that was a growing cloud around the world. Through studying science history and religion the conclusion I reached was that judaism was the oldest established religion. So I studied Jewish history which logically brought me to Jesus which was the fullfilling of the Jewish law. The more I studied the more I beleived until I sought to be "born again". My life changed when I started a relationship with Jesus Christ. I have since seen many lives change as a result of truly accepting Jesus. I see science and religion as being in the same situation. There is so much misinformation out there that people believe because of faulty mentoring that sifting through it on a large scale is impossible. I say this because as soon as you finish one debate there are still those who cling to faulty beleifs inspite of all that was said and you have to start all over again with a new group. I believe in the christian Bible, in the trinity and in the saving power of the blood of Jesus.

    Admittedly I don't have any evidence that skeptics can't pick apart - At least in their own mind. I have family members that were sick and healed - arguement... the body is very resilient and meds were responsible for the recovery or there was an error in that test and there was no cancer to start with. I have been provided for.. had money to pay a bill that I have no idea where it came from (arguement: lucky coincidence). I have felt the presence of God and his love (arguement Delusional or crazy). I have seen people with addictions to everything from crack to cigs walk away and never pick them up again (arguement: I refuse to see the truth or I'm not with them always so how do I KNOW).
    When I stopped looking for floods or evidence I saw the mist of evidence gently falling around me. God proves himself to me daily, not because of responsibility or because he has to, but simply because we love each other.

    Any person can refuse to see what they want to or make themselves "believe" what they want to. We have that power. God proves Himself to those who honestly seek Him. Humans can be decieved. They can be lead away. "Be sober, be vigilant, your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." That was a warning written to true followers of Jesus. Once your a threat to satan he becomes active and tries to "get you back".

    I appreciate your question Kalister and take no offense by it. Even for the folks who would desire to "hurt" me, it's water off a ducks back. I have rhino skin as most of my life I have been "targeted" by many sides of the arguement.

    Hugs
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    So I studied Jewish history which logically brought me to Jesus which was the fullfilling of the Jewish law.
    sorry to but in, I'm a little puzzled, by jewish history, do you mean judaism? Or do you mean the history from the Byzantine period?,
    Also the jews are still waiting for a messiah, so what law are you refering too thats been fulfilled? and how can you say logically?
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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    Thank you for your response. I have had a much easier go at life than you did. You are a perfect example where religion has had the positive effect on someone's life that I think was intended by some of the writers of it. This is why I say that atheists should not choose to condemn religion outright. Even though the premise of religion is wrong according to atheists like me, it does not touch the core philosophies that most of them posses. I grew up in a religious home, where we went to church every Sunday and learned those philosophies as a code to live one’s life by. The mistake with established religions is that they are man-made and as a result the bible/Quran/etc can be shaped and interpreted to fit almost any view of what is right and wrong. In some countries you can beat your wife, kill innocent people and all kinds of atrocities, because they have found some way to justify what they are doing in their respective holy texts. The bible condones a lot of these atrocities as well. And to take the bible/Quran/etc literally is impossible, as many contradictions exist. What you have done, I gather, is take what makes sense and gone with that, essentially a “do unto others as you would have them do unto you “approach, coupled with the belief in Jesus, the trinity, and everlasting life. Christianity without all the hypocrisy. Atheists also make the mistake of assuming that all atheists are what they are as a result of recognizing the fallacies contained in religions, which is a big mistake. Although I do not agree with you, I wish you all the best! If more theists followed your example, the world would be a much better place to live in.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Thank you kalister.

    Might I ask what religion you were raised in? Also what turned you off to religion. What contradictions did you find in the Bible? Also (this has been brought up a couple of times) what New Testament text urges christians to violence?

    I agree that many things were done in the name of God that were clearly against Him. Is this a fault of the text or the interpretation of the text? If it's not a fault of the text then why is the text targeted as a problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    So I studied Jewish history which logically brought me to Jesus which was the fullfilling of the Jewish law.
    sorry to but in, I'm a little puzzled, by jewish history, do you mean judaism? Or do you mean the history from the Byzantine period?,
    Also the jews are still waiting for a messiah, so what law are you refering too thats been fulfilled? and how can you say logically?
    Yes. The history back to Adam which I consider true. When studying you have to consider the source. Not just what the book says but who wrote it and what were they trying to say. What was going on when it was written and what is the background of the author. That is good practice in any field of study from science to culinary arts.

    To understand the history of the world as I have come to (right or wrong) you have be willing to at least consider the idea that God and Satan are real. If we start with Adam and Eve thru the flood and then begin anew with Noah and his children and the subsequent beginning of tribes to later become civilizations we can see the sociological expansion of man throughout the world. The pre flood earth was significantly different from the post flood world. The Byzantene empire (greek speaking roman-esk) was a product of the formation of society in that area which eventually prospered because of technology (better weapons basically). Those who produced better weapons and were natural leaders rose above the natural followers and poorly equipt, eventually through conflict and conquering the empire was formed (this is of course the majorly abridged version). This is the same pattern for all civilizations that have formed. As we study histories written by different peoples you have to consider their point of view and back ground including economic, and religious.

    If you study the pre-Israel history of the children of God (I use this term as that is the only accurate qualifying point) we trace the line of humanity back to Noah and subsequently back to Adam. Granted these "histories" were oral traditions later penned but I feel they offer an accurate history of the who's and when's.

    If we look at all of History as a tree.. All other religions and beliefs have a starting point that is mappable on this tree (of a religious and non religious nature). As we run back in time getting closer and closer to one trunk and one truth when we see the roots we find God and creation. If you will at least for arguement sake concede that God and Satan are real it's not to difficult to see how life on earth turned into what we see today.

    Of course young earth theory goes in the face of alot of scientific teachings but as we already discussed, if God and Satan are real does it surprise you that the world is opposed to God and/or His word? There are alot more untruths than truths in the world. Digging out the right is expectedly difficult.


    EDIT: Forgot to answer your other question. The Jews had become so tied up in religion that when the savior came they didn't recognize Him. They were waiting for (I suspect) political freedom and the establishment of an earthy kingdom. Jesus came for something much more important. He came for the establishment of a spiritual kingdom and to free people from the Law of the Jewish culture that had gotten pretty rediculous and legalistic. Not all Jews or Israelites are still waiting. Some have seen Jesus for who is is and accepted Him as the final, worthy sacrifice for their sins.
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  31. #30  
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    You should all check into bad-writers anonymous.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    So I studied Jewish history which logically brought me to Jesus which was the fullfilling of the Jewish law.
    sorry to but in, I'm a little puzzled, by jewish history, do you mean judaism? Or do you mean the history from the Byzantine period?,
    Also the jews are still waiting for a messiah, so what law are you refering too thats been fulfilled? and how can you say logically?
    Yes. The history back to Adam which I consider true.
    so you read the torah, which contains no reference to jesus, so how did it lead you logically to jesus?
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    When studying you have to consider the source.
    exactly, this is why I ask the last question.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Not just what the book says but who wrote it and what were they trying to say. What was going on when it was written and what is the background of the author. That is good practice in any field of study from science to culinary arts.
    oh yes, however science and cullinary arts have a verifiable basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    To understand the history of the world as I have come to (right or wrong) you have be willing to at least consider the idea that God and Satan are real.
    why! what is your reasoning for such a huge leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    If we start with Adam and Eve thru the flood and then begin anew with Noah and his children and the subsequent beginning of tribes to later become civilizations we can see the sociological expansion of man throughout the world.
    we can see that anyway, why the need for the supernatural, nothing other than natural has ever been detected.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    if you study the pre-Israel history of the children of God (I use this term as that is the only accurate qualifying point) we trace the line of humanity back to Noah and subsequently back to Adam. Granted these "histories" were oral traditions later penned but I feel they offer an accurate history of the who's and when's.
    and if you study verifiable fossil history you can trace the line of humanity back to Omo I and Omo II about 195,000 years ago. when man first looked up at the sun and was in awe of it's life giving force. where all religion began.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    If we look at all of History as a tree.. All other religions and beliefs have a starting point that is mappable on this tree (of a religious and non religious nature). As we run back in time getting closer and closer to one trunk and one truth when we see the roots we find God and creation.
    as I said mans first god and where all religion stems from was and is the sun.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    If you will at least for arguement sake concede that God and Satan are real it's not to difficult to see how life on earth turned into what we see today.
    ok conceded for these few seconds but how so, I do not comprehend your reasoning.
    if you had said the sun, then logical it follows that this is the origins of religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Of course young earth theory goes in the face of alot of scientific teachings but as we already discussed, if God and Satan are real does it surprise you that the world is opposed to God and/or His word? There are alot more untruths than truths in the world. Digging out the right is expectedly difficult.
    no thats the human animal for you, easy lead and extremely fickle. Someone with the right gifts and he willing to give his life.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    EDIT: Forgot to answer your other question. The Jews had become so tied up in religion that when the savior came they didn't recognize Him. They were waiting for (I suspect) political freedom and the establishment of an earthy kingdom. Jesus came for something much more important. He came for the establishment of a spiritual kingdom and to free people from the Law of the Jewish culture that had gotten pretty rediculous and legalistic.
    all this is your opinion, where does it state this in the torah.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Not all Jews or Israelites are still waiting. Some have seen Jesus for who is is and accepted Him as the final, worthy sacrifice for their sins.
    and not all christian, still follow jesus some have turned to judaism and islam, whats your point.

    ““No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what HE means”
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    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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  33. #32  
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    Might I ask what religion you were raised in?
    Dutch Reformed Church. Christian

    Also what turned you off to religion
    It is something that happened gradually, with many factors contributing to my decision. I guess I was an atheist for a long time without realizing it (if that makes sense). Even from a young age, I never really got it. I never felt what everyone around me was professing to. Of course, at such a young age I could not yet recognize the fakeness of most of the people around me, especially those that professed the loudest and were most involved in the church. A lot of self analysis, talking to people on both sides and some years later left me with one conclusion. Religion was made-up. I think it probably developed very long ago when man was still living in caves and killing Neanderthals. If you think about it, it is a very good tool to keep people in line and to get people to band together. In those years, this was probably hundreds of thousands of years, what did the people believe in? I am not sure if you believe the earth to be 6000 years old? Mainstream religions today all originate from around the Mediterranean and Asia. So what about Africans, where we presumably originated from? Recorded history as we know it only started after the last ice age ended. What about before that? All of these seemingly straight forward questions made the whole idea of Jesus coming to save us etc. etc. to be a stretch of the imagination. He may have existed, but not as the Son of God.

    What contradictions did you find in the Bible? Also (this has been brought up a couple of times) what New Testament text urges christians to violence?
    Most of these contradictions can be found on the website www.godisimaginary.com .
    I gather you recognize the Old Testament as more of an historical catalogue than necessarily the word of god? I’m not too sure that such calls to arms exist in the New Testament?

    I agree that many things were done in the name of God that were clearly against Him. Is this a fault of the text or the interpretation of the text? If it's not a fault of the text then why is the text targeted as a problem?
    I think good old Ophiolite called it "throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. Yes I think it is a common mistake. I think it has mostly to do with what is written in the old testament concerning obviously ridiculous norms as discussed before. The texts hold profound truths, but you have to be able to distinguish the pearls from the nonsense.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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