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Thread: Funding of Faith Based Schools

  1. #1 Funding of Faith Based Schools 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Where I live up here in the great cold north of Canada in the wonderful province of Ontario we just re-elected a provincial premier(governor). His main opponent who was expected to do well in the election was defeated soundly. The main reason given for the opponent's downfall was that he opened the campaign promising to publicly fund faith based schools. In Canada we have 10 provinces(some may say 11 if you include the far north) and of those I believe 6 are already practicing public funding of faith based schools. Anyway, Ontario having the biggest population of them all decided they wanted no part of funding religious schools.

    What I'll ask the membership is this: should faith based schools feed from the public trough? Personally I think not. I think it would tend to segregate people even more in our multicultural society. Besides if a Satanic worship school were to open up I believe we would have to fund it just to be fair. Sorry atheists, no funding for atheist schools unless its a religion. Taxpayers have enough on their plate and don't need to fund religious schools.


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    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    I think schools and religion should never meet, keep that for familys


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  4. #3  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Politicians who promise funding for faith based schools are obviously trying to buy votes. It is an insult to the electorate and shows total ignorance towards the non-religious voters and people who know politics and religion should never mix.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    I would go as far as to say that we should ban Faith based school entirely.
    Faith based schools remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. They also sanction ethnic segregation and create tension and divisiveness within society. Schools should be places where children are given a free education, not centres for indoctrination. Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school. Abolishing faith schools will provide children with more freedom of choice and help to promote a fully multi-cultural, peaceful society.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    We suffer in the UK from the misguided apprehensions of many politicians who, having been handed the legacy of state funding for Church of England (the State religion) schools, decided to deal with the issue not by removing that funding (consistent with a secular society) but instead by extending it to all faiths - so my tax money now goes to fund religious indoctrination. It's a disgrace and, like so many other anomalous aspects of British society and law, something that we do not condemn enough.
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  7. #6  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Although, as far as I am aware, the faith based schools generally have much better results from their students.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Although, as far as I am aware, the faith based schools generally have much better results from their students.
    Because not only do they have their private funds, but my tax money too...

    And up until recently few if any of them had to be inclusive, the way state schools have to be. For decades we've had the pathetic scenario of atheistic parents attending church just so they can get their kids into the local CofE school that has better results than the local comprehensive. If the CofE school can pick and choose, and has additional resources available, yes of course you get the self-fulfilling prophecy of its performing better than state schools. It doesn't mean the system is better - just more hypocritical and inclined to exclusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I would go as far as to say that we should ban Faith based school entirely.
    Faith based schools remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. They also sanction ethnic segregation and create tension and divisiveness within society. Schools should be places where children are given a free education, not centres for indoctrination. Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school. Abolishing faith schools will provide children with more freedom of choice and help to promote a fully multi-cultural, peaceful society.
    I'm not sure that children have a recognized "right" to choose their own religion, and I'm sure that most children don't have the mental ability or the necessary knowledge to rationally pick a religion anyway.
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  10. #9  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    My point, and as weak as it sounds is this, funding for faith based schools would probably not go to any faith that isn't based on mainstream religion. Surely to God, Satanic worship for example, is a faith along with what is practiced by several other sects with widely varying but non-conforming beliefs.

    If faith based funding is the norm then I see no reason why those who get it should complain if their evil counterpart receives funding also. Do you think that would happen? Damn right they'd squawk. Would the governments pull the funding or be forced to disclose what constitutes a faith...and we all know where that would end up. You can bet that those faiths that receive funding won't like having the cash tap shut off because government deems it unconstitutional for the so-called bad religions to not receive equal funding. That's my point, in a free and democratic society, it would eventually be found to be unconstitutional to to refuse faith based funding to any group not considered mainstream religion.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  11. #10  
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I would go as far as to say that we should ban Faith based school entirely.
    Faith based schools remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. They also sanction ethnic segregation and create tension and divisiveness within society. Schools should be places where children are given a free education, not centres for indoctrination. Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school. Abolishing faith schools will provide children with more freedom of choice and help to promote a fully multi-cultural, peaceful society.
    I'm not sure that children have a recognized "right" to choose their own religion, and I'm sure that most children don't have the mental ability or the necessary knowledge to rationally pick a religion anyway.
    when a child reaches an age of discernment around 10/12 years, then he can make up his own mind, by weighting up the pros and cons, to enforce beliefs on a child, prior to that time, especially things like "be good or your burn in hell" is child abuse.
    children should be allowed to be children.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    when a child reaches an age of discernment around 10/12 years, then he can make up his own mind, by weighting up the pros and cons
    Lol. You've clearly never actually dealt with young children - or if you have, apparently it was a group of particularly bright children. Let me tell you a little story.

    When I was a chemistry undergrad I helped do some science demos for elementary school kids. In one demo we dipped an inflated balloon into liquid nitrogen until the air inside liquefied, which caused the balloon to shrink until it looked completely un-inflated. Then we took it out of the LN2, and as it warmed up it re-inflated before their eyes over about 15 seconds. Seems like a pretty cool demonstration of the phases of matter, right? Before we did the demo, we spent about 10 minutes discussing the phases of matter and explaining what was going on with the balloon and the air inside. How did they react? After a few seconds of ooooohs and aaaaahs as the balloon spontaneously re-inflated, on child shouted "It's magic!" and another shouted back "No, it's a miracle!" (Oh course, I immediately wondered what the difference was supposed to be.)

    We did the same sort of demo several times for different groups of students, and that was a very common reaction. Seriously. Kids that age superstitious idiots - they immediately attribute anything fantastic or out-of-the-ordinary to magic. I very seriously doubt that many of them could make any sort of rational choice about religion.
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  13. #12  
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    when a child reaches an age of discernment around 10/12 years, then he can make up his own mind, by weighting up the pros and cons
    Lol. You've clearly never actually dealt with young children - or if you have, apparently it was a group of particularly bright children.
    I know what I was like at that age, and what my son and daughter are like, prior to the age of 10, they might have gone ooos ahhhs, but now they, question and discuss. we had infants( 4-7 ), middle( 7-11 ), and upper school( 11-16 ) over here, what age or grade was your demo for, was it lower than fifth grade.
    if my children had seen it the would have come home and stated it was neat and then explained how it worked.
    because I as a parent would have ask them such questions.

    I wasn't literally saying that children would chose a religion at that age I was clearly stating that is the time they would start being able to make reasoned judgements.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  14. #13  
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    its a two sided coin really. People get mad becuase they are paying to teach the indoctrination of young people. However the religious people pay taxes as well. They don't want to pay for an education that will strip their children of their religious rights. I detest politics as much as I destest religious hate groups. In fairness you are correct. If an area funds religious schools they should in fairness fund any religious school that starts (be it first presbyterian of somewhere Highschool or First Satanic Academy of hereorthere Highschool (go red devils)). When the idea of government kicks in we usually have either a "do it because I said so" or a simple majority rules system. If your in the minority you get stepped on. At that point you can either try to convice a majority or move to another place where the system is as you wish it to be. Good luck finding that one too. I don't know of anyplace on earth where the populace agrees on major issues of their own free will. Or if they do agree it doesn't take long for the unity to shift into dissention.
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  15. #14  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Or if they do agree it doesn't take long for the unity to shift into dissention.
    While I see what you mean, I think you are wrong. :wink:
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    can you explain why you think i'm wrong and maybe give an example to the contrary?
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  17. #16 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

    What I'll ask the membership is this: should faith based schools feed from the public trough? Personally I think not. I think it would tend to segregate people even more in our multicultural society. Besides if a Satanic worship school were to open up I believe we would have to fund it just to be fair. Sorry atheists, no funding for atheist schools unless its a religion. Taxpayers have enough on their plate and don't need to fund religious schools.
    You cannot pick an choose where your tax money goes. Such is the reason you elect representives. Funding for schools should not be an issue. The real questions should be are they meeting the required teachings set forth and graduating students who are able to master the needed skills to have a successfull life or college experience.

    Is your personal goal to wipe out religon? Are you afraid if your nextdoor neighbors kid learns what the bible teaches? Do you care if your child learns what the bible teaches? Can you think of a reason why Religon should NOT be apart of the education experience?
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  18. #17 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Is your personal goal to wipe out religon?
    Not really, If I pray to God that I'd like religion to go away He'd probably answer me back with 'So do I"
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  19. #18  
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    lets face it people it's public funding for, brainwashing and child abuse.
    something terribly wrong there.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  20. #19 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Is your personal goal to wipe out religon?
    if I could I would, religion kills.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Are you afraid if your nextdoor neighbors kid learns what the bible teaches?
    yes if they believes it, because then they becomes lethal weapons.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Do you care if your child learns what the bible teaches?
    yes, I dont want irrationally dangerous things, being taught to my children, I wont allow anybody to abuse my children.
    If it is taught in the english class, as the fiction it so clearly is, I have no problem, it loses it's potency, but as an irrationally believed truth it kills.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Can you think of a reason why Religon should NOT be apart of the education experience?
    all of the above, and more.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    God isn't a big fan of religion either.

    If kids learn what the Bible teaches and not what religion tricks people into believing or ignoring about the Bible then they would not hurt a soul. They would not become lethal anything. (This is true of the Christian Bible anyway) I know the muslim bible gives provision for killing certain peoples who stand against their church/beliefs but my Bible makes no provision for that. "Vengance is mine sayith the Lord" We maintain a right to defend ourselves from personnal attack but not to retaliate or murder or even preempt an attack.

    Millions of horrible things have been done "in the name of God" and each one of them will be answered for. True Christianity will bring peace and happiness. If not in this world then in the hereafter.

    Our belief has no effect on who God actually is. Our misinterpretations don't change the meaning of the scriptures. Every person is individually responsible for only themself. Every person will be judged according to the opportunity that God gave them to hear and understand and what they did with it. Accept or Reject. Good or bad is side issue that is resolved in the practice of christianity. Good or bad is not grounds for redemption.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    God isn't a big fan of religion either.

    If kids learn what the Bible teaches and not what religion tricks people into believing or ignoring about the Bible then they would not hurt a soul.
    in the words of the great John McEnroe, "you can not be serious man!"the Bible itself incites violence, as does the Qu'ran.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    They would not become lethal anything. (This is true of the Christian Bible anyway)
    no they will be worse, " you can not be serious man!"
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I know the muslim bible gives provision for killing certain peoples who stand against their church/beliefs but my Bible makes no provision for that.
    are we reading the same bible, there's over 60 versions of the Bible in english, all incite violence, have you printed a new one, or rewrote the old ones, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    "Vengance is mine sayith the Lord" We maintain a right to defend ourselves from personnal attack but not to retaliate or murder or even preempt an attack.
    and who do you think would be attacking you, another religious group perhaps, my point is made.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Millions of horrible things have been done "in the name of God"
    and many according to the bible where sanctioned by god, (oh wait you've changed it, your new version doesn't have any of that in it does it.)
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    and each one of them will be answered for. True Christianity will bring peace and happiness.
    yes once it's killed everybody.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    If not in this world then in the hereafter.
    point made once again.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Our belief has no effect on who God actually is.
    well of course not it's your imaginary concept it can be whatever you want it to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Our misinterpretations don't change the meaning of the scriptures.
    exactly one persons imagined interpretation, can mean certain death and anothers armageddon, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Every person is individually responsible for only themself.
    yes that the religious view, but the secular view is the opposite, every person is responsible for himself and everyone around him.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Every person will be judged according to the opportunity that God gave them to hear and understand and what they did with it.
    only those who have a god concept can imagine that happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Accept or Reject. Good or bad is side issue that is resolved in the practice of christianity. Good or bad is not grounds for redemption.
    but do they score points for how many they kill on the way.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  23. #22  
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    There are good and bad translations of the Bible.

    Give me an example of the Bible encouraging followers of Jesus to commit violent acts on another person.

    Your lumping true christianity in with every evil act ever done under the guise of "a calling from a higher power"

    I don't say all scientists are greedy self serving liars because some scientists falsified evidence for personal gain?

    Religion is a method of ruining the humans of the world. No doubt about it. True christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with God.

    Your right. True christians are the most attacked group ont he planet because we are blamed for all the crap religion brought into the world. The truth of the gospel remains. Even though it has been clouded and poluted by Catholics, mormons, jehovah's witness, Bible thumpers, Hellfire preachers, and every other group that has mistaught or misrepresented the Bible. The are many violent acts in the Bible. I don't deny that. Most of those instances was God providing for and/or protecting His people. If He is God and He does love us isn't that what you would expect. What about the people that died or were killed. Each one of them made a choice against God. They chose not to be His child and forfieted His protection and provision. God evem uses the suffering of His own people to attempt to reach the lost and bring them back to Him. Whatever we endure on this earth... Heaven is worth it.

    All that is neither here nore there again I ask...

    Show me in valid scriptuer (KJV, NIV, NASB, a few others) where Followers of Jesus Christ are incited to violent acts against other people.
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    They chose not to be His child and forfieted His protection and provision.
    If my children chose not to be my children, I would still protect them as best as I was able. They would not "forfeit" my provision through their choice.

    Surely God is more loving than I am.

    These are the sorts of contradictions that make the christian message so problematic.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    There are good and bad translations of the Bible.
    yes but which ones are the right translations.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Give me an example of the Bible encouraging followers of Jesus to commit violent acts on another person.
    Luke 19:26: For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. from the KJV.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Your lumping true christianity in with every evil act ever done under the guise of "a calling from a higher power"
    no just reading and quoting the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I don't say all scientists are greedy self serving liars because some scientists falsified evidence for personal gain?
    why would you, your point is, if any.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Religion is a method of ruining the humans of the world. No doubt about it.[
    agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    True christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with God.
    is this the same god of the bible, the same god that gave you your ten commandments?
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Your right. True christians are the most attacked group ont he planet because we are blamed for all the crap religion brought into the world.
    firstly dont try to put words in my mouth I never said christians or true christians are the most attacked group on the planet, ok.
    There might be true christianity but I very much doubt it, but there most certain ain't no such animal as a true christian. ( and this can be tested )
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    The truth of the gospel remains. Even though it has been clouded and poluted by Catholics, mormons, jehovah's witness, Bible thumpers, Hellfire preachers, and every other group that has mistaught or misrepresented the Bible.
    including yours. ( "the truth of the gospels" another debate at a later date)
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    The are many violent acts in the Bible. I don't deny that. Most of those instances was God providing for and/or protecting His people. If He is God and He does love us isn't that what you would expect.
    no!
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    What about the people that died or were killed. Each one of them made a choice against God. They chose not to be His child and forfieted His protection and provision.
    why a good loving god would be above such trivalities, I would run to the ends of the earth for my children, even if they ceased believing in me.
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    God evem uses the suffering of His own people to attempt to reach the lost and bring them back to Him. Whatever we endure on this earth... Heaven is worth it.
    yes a really loving god, what would god say "I going to torture you for a while, I'm going to let your children starve, I' going to send wolves it to devour your children just so you can see the light and come to me, it's for your own good."
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    All that is neither here nore there again I ask...

    Show me in valid scriptuer (KJV, NIV, NASB, a few others) where Followers of Jesus Christ are incited to violent acts against other people.
    ok then also the KJV Matt 15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
    4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  26. #25 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Geezer

    You answered to:
    Is your personal goal to wipe out religon?
    if I could I would, religion kills.

    Everything kills. What doesn't kill? Do you wish to ban driving, sex, law fertilizer, paint thinners, public water? Maybe you can come up with something that does not kill that you do not object to. And again how does religon kill???

    You answered to:
    Are you afraid if your nextdoor neighbors kid learns what the bible teaches?
    yes if they believes it, because then they becomes lethal weapons.

    So your goal IS to prevent others from practicing religion? What country are you from??? You really think that if someone's kid actually learned who the Dali Lama is, that kid is going to kill someone over it?


    You answered to:
    Do you care if your child learns what the bible teaches?
    yes, I dont want irrationally dangerous things, being taught to my children, I wont allow anybody to abuse my children.
    If it is taught in the english class, as the fiction it so clearly is, I have no problem, it loses it's potency, but as an irrationally believed truth it kills.

    What is the irrationality that you feel that is presented in the bible that your would drive your children to kill? Why would it matter if it was in english class or history classs? If your children are stupid enough to think that because it was read in history class is must all be true then you did an aweful job as a parent. I took a religous study class at a catholic college, and it was very insightful I think you would have enjoyed it. Discussed contradictions, historical vs religous sig., probability of something being factual based on other verses... I didn't walk out of that class wanting to kill, but a lot of people who were "religous" were upset that a lot of what they thought to be true was not. You can learn religon, no just it's beliefes but it's truth and lies too.


    You answered:
    Can you think of a reason why Religon should NOT be apart of the education experience?
    All of the above and more

    So you feel that an informed adult who has the ability to cope in an ever changing world is more adatp to be able to work and discuss with others by NOT understanding them? Are you aware of the term cultrual sensitivity? How do you think that comes into play, or is it that the world should just see it from your perspective and if not F em.
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  27. #26  
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    GEEZER!

    You seem to know the bible quite well, do we need to worry you are going to kill anyone? I mean I am assuming you learned this somehow. Right? Where did you learn your facts? What makes you better than the next person at being able to handle that knowledge you posted regarding the verse of the bible without teeing off a few rounds on the next person who is different than you? Do you really think you are that much better than everyone else??? That somehow only your brain can push back the brainwashing in that book you quoted from?
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    We maintain a right to defend ourselves from personnal attack but not to retaliate or murder or even preempt an attack.
    Interesting! Doesn't the bible very explicitly say that christians aren't supposed to defend themselves? Why don’t you follow that particular bit of the bible?
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  29. #28 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Everything kills. What doesn't kill? Do you wish to ban driving, sex, law fertilizer, paint thinners, public water? Maybe you can come up with something that does not kill that you do not object to. And again how does religon kill???
    So we shouldn't bother getting rid of things that motivate people to kill, just because there might still be others left? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Along those same lines, I suppose we shouldn't bother trying to stop drunk drivers. I mean, drunk drivers kill. But what doesn't kill, right?
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  30. #29 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Geezer

    You answered to:
    Is your personal goal to wipe out religon?
    if I could I would, religion kills.

    Everything kills. What doesn't kill? Do you wish to ban driving, sex, law fertilizer, paint thinners, public water? Maybe you can come up with something that does not kill that you do not object to. And again how does religon kill???
    dont be foolish, none of the things you mentioned above incite people to violence, but religion and believe in god/gods do.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You answered to:
    Are you afraid if your nextdoor neighbors kid learns what the bible teaches?
    yes if they believes it, because then they becomes lethal weapons.

    So your goal IS to prevent others from practicing religion? What country are you from??? You really think that if someone's kid actually learned who the Dali Lama is, that kid is going to kill someone over it?
    again your being foolish, I personally would not call buddhism a religion, in fact most other religious people call it atheistic. it only preaches wisdom and peace not like the other religions, which preach intolerence and hatred.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You answered to:
    Do you care if your child learns what the bible teaches?
    yes, I dont want irrationally dangerous things, being taught to my children, I wont allow anybody to abuse my children.
    If it is taught in the english class, as the fiction it so clearly is, I have no problem, it loses it's potency, but as an irrationally believed truth it kills.

    What is the irrationality that you feel that is presented in the bible that your would drive your children to kill? Why would it matter if it was in english class or history classs? If your children are stupid enough to think that because it was read in history class is must all be true then you did an aweful job as a parent. I took a religous study class at a catholic college, and it was very insightful I think you would have enjoyed it. Discussed contradictions, historical vs religous sig., probability of something being factual based on other verses... I didn't walk out of that class wanting to kill, but a lot of people who were "religous" were upset that a lot of what they thought to be true was not. You can learn religon, no just it's beliefes but it's truth and lies too.
    I never said, it would drive my children to kill what I said was, "as the fiction it so clearly is" and "as an irrational believed truth it kills"
    english class is where you learn about the written word, about languages, about books and fiction, it could only be in the history class if it was historical, in the same way we may refer to homers illad, or a thousand and one nights, other than that it has not historical connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You answered:
    Can you think of a reason why Religon should NOT be apart of the education experience?
    All of the above and more

    So you feel that an informed adult who has the ability to cope in an ever changing world is more adatp to be able to work and discuss with others by NOT understanding them?
    what, I dont follow.
    Religious people can be some of the most intelligent people and some of the most kindest of all, but for that one irrationality, that can make them kill, without a thought of how wrong it is.
    Two thirds of the world are religious, and these peole control our every breath, they can kill us at a whim and are doing so even now, if they so believe it is what there god wishes.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Are you aware of the term cultrual sensitivity?
    oh yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    How do you think that comes into play,
    as I said religious people can be nice and good, but to the religious, good is relative. "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." steven weinberg
    (personal attack removed)
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  31. #30 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    again your being foolish, I personally would not call buddhism a religion, in fact most other religious people call it atheistic. it only preaches wisdom and peace not like the other religions, which preach intolerence and hatred.
    Well, most Buddhists believe in reincarnation...that's certainly a religious belief.

    One of the key differences, I think, is that Buddhism doesn't command its followers to go out and spread Buddhism. So they're content to just be Buddhists, and leave everyone else alone.
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    Geezer

    You're confusing learning religion with believing it. The fact that it is used as an educational tool does not make a believer out of someone. I actually think it would be benificial to society if people actually understood what they claim to believe.

    You continue to make claims that religon insites people to violence. I challenge you to show statistical proof of that, and not some copy and post links from some blog wihtout even a footnote...

    I hope one day you will see it is intolerance that leads to violence. The tone you have is just that intolerance.

    I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you are answering questions like a religous zealot. You make a statement then you change what you meant to say.

    You said "f I could I would, religion kills. " Then I showed you things that kill and you responded with "none of the things you mentioned above incite people to violence"

    Guy that's not what you said in the first place!

    You did it again here
    you wrote"yes, I dont want irrationally dangerous things, being taught to my children, ... but as an irrationally believed truth it kills. " so I followed up with "What is the irrationality that you feel that is presented in the bible that your would drive your children to kill? " You answered "I never said, it would drive my children to kill what I said was, "as the fiction it so clearly is" and "as an irrational believed truth it kills"'. Which is it, does learning these things produce killers or not? What protects your kids from this evil but not someone else?


    You wrote "Religious people can ... but for that one irrationality, that can make them kill..."

    Do you believe that only people who are religious kill others? Do you think that the only driving force is irrationality? Do athiests not have irrational thoughts that can drive them to kill?

    Keeping your quote in perspective, it is coming from someone who also said "“I think one of the great historical contributions of science is to weaken the hold of religion. That's a good thing.”

    That is like using the pope quote “Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.” jonh pual ii It's called preaching to the quior...

    However since you like him... "An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy.” Steven Weinberg . I guess that would make you an expert?
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Geezer

    You're confusing learning religion with believing it. The fact that it is used as an educational tool does not make a believer out of someone.
    I suggest you look up what indotrination means and ask a few atheist how easy it is or was to return to atheism try reading this ( http://www.thescienceforum.com/Athei...-out-8544t.php ) it's a start.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You continue to make claims that religon insites people to violence. I challenge you to show statistical proof of that, and not some copy and post links from some blog wihtout even a footnote...
    the bible

    On homosexuality: Leviticus 20:13, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
    Striking your father or mother (Ex.21:15); And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
    On kidnapping: (Ex. 21:6 RSV); Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Cursing your father or mother (Ex. 21:17 RSV, Lev. 20:9); And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

    Being a false prophet (Deut. 18:20) But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

    Gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32-35); And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day.
    And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

    Serving or worshipping other gods (Deut. 17:2-5 RSV) If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
    And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
    And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
    Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

    On seduction Deuteronomy 13:7-11
    “If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying. “Let us go and serve other gods,” … you must show him no pity, you must not spare
    him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God.”

    the qu'ran

    sura 002.191
    YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
    PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
    YUSUFALI: (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
    PICKTHAL: Turning away in pride to beguile (men) from the way of Allah. For him in this world is ignominy, and on the Day of Resurrection We make him taste the doom of burning.
    SHAKIR: Turning away haughtily that he may lead (others) astray from the way of Allah; for him is disgrace in this world, and on the day of resurrection We will make him taste the punishment of burning.

    Then he ordered for [sic] nails which were heated and [the tribesmen] were branded with those nails, their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Al-Madina). And when they asked for water, no water was given them till they died . . . . (Bukhari, Book of Jihad, no. 3018; cf. online source)

    -When the Apostle of Allah . . . cut off (the hands and feet of) those who had stolen his camels and he had their eyes put out by fire (heated nails), Allah reprimanded him on that (action), and Allah, the Exalted, revealed: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution or crucifixion.” (Abu Dawud, no. 4357)

    - Sura 7:124 says through the mouth of Pharaoh: “Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross.” (Yusuf Ali)

    -Here is the torture that Muhammad permitted: When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest, he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders . . . “Torture him until you extract what he has,” so [the torturer] kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead.

    is that provocation enough for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    I hope one day you will see it is intolerance that leads to violence. The tone you have is just that intolerance.
    yes I have no tolerence for the violent cult of religion, but I would not kill anybody because of it, I dont blame the people, they have no control over the mind virus, if we can remove the cause( patient zero, ) we can cure them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You said "if I could I would, religion kills. " Then I showed you things that kill and you responded with "none of the things you mentioned above incite people to violence"
    Guy that's not what you said in the first place!
    what!, you taking everything far to literal, did you think I meant, if the bible fell on your head and killed you, or a church collapsed on it's congregation, religion comes from a book and from preachers etc.. who can incite violence, none of the authors of anti religious books ( http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18398/militant-atheism ) ( http://www.amazon.com/Religion-That-.../dp/1563841711 ) meant the book hitting your head is going to kill you, lol.
    heck you can buy t-shirts with Religion kills on, the T- shirt is not going to literally attack you, rotflmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You did it again here
    you wrote"yes, I dont want irrationally dangerous things, being taught to my children, ... but as an irrationally believed truth it kills. " so I followed up with "What is the irrationality that you feel that is presented in the bible that your would drive your children to kill? " You answered "I never said, it would drive my children to kill what I said was, "as the fiction it so clearly is" and "as an irrational believed truth it kills"'. Which is it, does learning these things produce killers or not?
    yes, but my children recieve no religious teaching, or any atheist talk either they are allowed to be children.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    What protects your kids from this evil but not someone else?
    me.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    You wrote "Religious people can ... but for that one irrationality, that can make them kill..."
    Do you believe that only people who are religious kill others?
    no of course not but it is a common factor now days.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Do you think that the only driving force is irrationality?
    it is extremely rare for it not to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Do athiests not have irrational thoughts that can drive them to kill?
    we are all prone to a little from time to time, but I would say it would be extremely rare.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Keeping your quote in perspective, it is coming from someone who also said "“I think one of the great historical contributions of science is to weaken the hold of religion. That's a good thing.”
    could you show me were I personally said that.
    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    That is like using the pope quote “Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.” jonh pual ii It's called preaching to the quior...
    perhaps so but I'd like to now were it was said by me personally.
    (personal attack removed) try to debate the article not the person.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    I hope one day you will see it is intolerance that leads to violence. The tone you have is just that intolerance.
    Overtolerance is bad too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Give me an example of the Bible encouraging followers of Jesus to commit violent acts on another person.
    Luke 19:26: For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. from the KJV.
    Wow. That seemed a little dark for Jesus, so I looked up the entire passage. It seems pretty clear that the line about "kill my enemies" was spoken by a character in a parable that Jesus was giving. It's not actually Jesus giving an order to his followers.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Give me an example of the Bible encouraging followers of Jesus to commit violent acts on another person.
    Luke 19:26: For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. from the KJV.
    Wow. That seemed a little dark for Jesus, so I looked up the entire passage. It seems pretty clear that the line about "kill my enemies" was spoken by a character in a parable that Jesus was giving. It's not actually Jesus giving an order to his followers.
    but what of the other one, is that a parable too, is it equally as dark, here it is again KJV Matt 15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
    4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death, there lots more by the way.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    GEEZER!!!

    ***Prove what you claim and do not hide behind the bible like some trailer trash hillbilly redneck.***

    I really think you are a closet religious zealot. You answer posts just like one. You don't want to talk, you just want to be heard. And when you can't answer you go to the bible and spit out a few quotes to back up your feelings! Very hypocritical, and frustraiting, don't you agree?

    I did not ask you to quote from the bible and show me places where there are vilotent and nontolerant passages. I asked you to ***back up your claim that religion causes violence with stastictal evidence.***

    You did not address the fact that I showed where your violence by religious numbers is innacurate.

    Shouting off a few quotes from the bible does nothing to prove your point! You are making claims that religious people are more inclined to be violent. You are not claiming that peole who read the jeudeo/christian bible from cover to cover are more prone to violence, are you? EDIT: or more accurately that the bible has violent stories. So please stick with your original: religious people are more prone to be violent, and then PROVE IT!

    Such lines of hatred are in every day events and skewed to show the downfall of our society... The farce you present is not new.

    Video games make people violent. Ozzy make you want to kill yourself, And so do the beatles. Jay Z will have you busting caps in yo homies azz. I watched the Terminator yesterday, I guess it's just a matter of time that I start killing b/c Arnold was a cool killing machine. What about porn that's got to have something to do with all this violence...

    ***The flaw in these arguments is that they only produce negative outcomes. If Jay Z rapped about mowing the lawn, giving to charity, and loving thy parents, do you think that the kids would start to do that???***

    LETS LOOK AT YOUR SCREWED UP LOGIC: The verses you quote from are obscure. You are cherry picking, and if it wasn't for google you probably wouldn't even be able to find them yourself.

    By using your logic that people who are religious, must read the brainwashing tool called the bible and follow it's instructions to the T without any thought involved. Then you must also conclude that all the verses that teach love, tolerance, and understanding would have a pleasing effect. But you make no such mention of that. How come?

    Before you post, think about what you are going to write and answer the most basic of your premis that reigious people are more prone to be violent people. Use stats.
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    PS

    wrote "Religious people can ... but for that one irrationality, that can make them kill..."
    Do you believe that only people who are religious kill others?
    You answered: no of course not but it is a common factor now days.

    CORRELAION DOES NOT EQUATE TO CAUSATION! LEARN THE DIFFERENCE!


    You wrote "what!, you taking everything far to literal, did you think I meant..."

    TALK ABOUT ROFLMAO. Guy you are such a hypocrite I think your IQ stops you from even see it! You want the biblical passages to be taking litteraly, but not anything you say? Dumb ass

    why don't you just say what you mean. Do you need to restate anything else?
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    GEEZER!!!

    ***Prove what you claim and do not hide behind the bible like some trailer trash hillbilly redneck.***
    excuse me butting in here, but printing scripture that directly show causation, surely the question has been answered. I agree that humans can be violent under certain circumstances, but I do not agree that the particular kind of violence associated with religions is just a casual association and not causal. When a religion teaches that certain tenets of the religion are of supreme importance to everyone, far above even our well being in this life, then any methods become justified in the promotion of it's ideals. Democratic institutions become secondary, peace becomes secondary, rights become secondary. For example, when a church teaches that God will punish all of society for violating certain anachronistic social rules, then the question becomes, "to what lengths will you go to save all of humanity?" after all religion is only a set of beliefs, a set of symbols, if after reading the bible/qu'ran a man goes out and kills his neighbour, because he worked on sunday, or it stated kill the unbeliever, the believer is only following it's teachings, then that religion/belief is the direct cause of the violence.
    there's an old story. For want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost. For want of a horse, a rider was lost. For want of a rider, the battle was lost. For want of a battle, the war was lost. This story shows the the connection of events, and how something so trivial can later be proven to be huge.
    if a believer interpret's a scripture, and then either harms or kills someone because of his interpretation, if he had'nt read the scripture, or was never a believer would he have harmed or killed, there is no way of knowing for sure, however the scripture must be deemed the catalyst that caused the violence.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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    SUSAN


    You don't find the lest bit of irony that geezer uses the bible to hide behind when he is stumped??? And while he argues that religious people should read the bible and take every work literally, he does not feel that his written words should be taken literally by the same group of narrow minded thinkers???

    You wrote: but printing scripture that directly show causation...
    me:What is the causation? Because geezer has not yet even proven correlation between violent societies and levels or faith.

    You wrote: surely the question has been answered.
    me:What question do you think he answered?

    You wrote: When a religion teaches that certain tenets of the religion are of supreme importance to everyone.
    me:What are the tenents being discussed, and what are the tenents being taught?

    You wrote: ... then that religion/belief is the direct cause of the violence.
    me: Don't you think it's a HUGE jump to go from correlation to causation? Especially since correlation has not yet even been proven? Second does every person who commits a violent act do so because the bible says so? Does every person who commits a generous act does so because the bible says so? Or is it just the negative aspects that the bible teaches that people act on? Does the good outweigh the bad? If it wouldn't that be a test for a nonviolent society? Right, got to break some eggs to make a cake?

    You wrote: For want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost. For want of a horse, a rider was lost. For want of a rider, the battle was lost. For want of a battle, the war was lost. This story shows the the connection of events
    me: That is actually called a slippery slope and it is a fallacy!!!! aweful argument. Do not ever use it again. Maybe he went into battle with a horse while I had a tank and that lead to his defeat???

    You wrote: if a believer interpret's a scripture, and then either harms or kills someone because of his interpretation if he had'nt read the scripture, or was never a believer would he have harmed or killed, there is no way of knowing for sure, however the scripture must be deemed the catalyst that caused the violence.
    Me: Again another fallacy. Maybe the person he killed would have been an evil dictator who would round up all the jews in a concentration camp and kill them in smoke filled showers... He's dead now, so there's no way of knowing. Or would you have been against the early killing of Hittler?

    Nothing you have show supports the claim that RELIGIOUS SOCIETIES ARE MORE VIOLENT! or the next step of actually proving the causation.

    I look forward to your response.

    EDIT:
    The fact that you need to use fallacies to back up your claims shows that you have little understanding of what you actually believe, and that you are also easily manipulated. Keep that in mind and learn how to think critically. I do not mean that with disrespect. I mean that so you do not get taken advantage of one day...
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    I look forward to your response.

    Well, I hope it was worth it.

    Using the bible as an educational textbook is bound to evoke such responses. Whoops, did I say the bible caused that response?

    Susan, I understand the frustration.

    Scotty wrote
    The fact that you need to use fallacies to back up your claims shows that you have little understanding of what you actually believe, and that you are also easily manipulated.
    That would never happen in a funded religious school, right? Look at Scotty, think he's been manipulated?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    (sarcasm)lol.
    Hope you picked up on mine. I think you did.

    Here's a question for you: Who would you consider as having been manipulated, an atheist or a theist?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

    Here's a question for you: Who would you consider as having been manipulated, an atheist or a theist?
    Neither and both.

    I think you need to look at things on an individual basis. It really depends on how either person views their position and claims, and to what means they are willing to influence others.

    If one was to be manipulated, then he or she would seem to have been unfairly following the beliefs.

    There are extreems on either side of the bell curve, but I think most people just fall into the middle area. Most people get their religion or lack of, from their family. I don't think it's any more of a manipulation to grow up with a belief in god, or no belief in god than to be a Yankee fan. It has a lot more to do with where you grew up.
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  44. #43 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
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    Scotty

    Apologies if I'm taking these responses of yours out of context. I merely wished to address some of the points I feel you have raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    Everything kills. What doesn't kill? Do you wish to ban driving, sex, law fertilizer, paint thinners, public water? Maybe you can come up with something that does not kill that you do not object to. And again how does religon kill???
    Unlike fertiliser, paint thinners etc, religion, like some other factors, affects our beliefs. Our beliefs, by most theories of how humans work, affect our decisions. Therefore, indirectly and subtly but very very surely, our beliefs affect the decisions we make out of our "free will", ie decisions for which we can and probably should be held morally responsible. Paint thinner kills, but people murder (there's a subtle distinction there). It is the murderous (through free will) aspect of it that makes religion, to many, objectionable. It's why we call it brainwashing.

    (BTW I am not arguing over whether or not religion kills but, if it does, why it is worth distinguishing religion from paint stripper as a source of death.)

    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    So your goal IS to prevent others from practicing religion? What country are you from??? You really think that if someone's kid actually learned who the Dali Lama is, that kid is going to kill someone over it?
    Not who the Dalai Lama is, but certainly what he represents. The recent history of Sri Lanka is instructive for those who believe that Buddhism cannot lead to violence.


    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    What is the irrationality that you feel that is presented in the bible that your would drive your children to kill? Why would it matter if it was in english class or history classs? If your children are stupid enough to think that because it was read in history class is must all be true then you did an aweful job as a parent. I took a religous study class at a catholic college, and it was very insightful I think you would have enjoyed it. Discussed contradictions, historical vs religous sig., probability of something being factual based on other verses... I didn't walk out of that class wanting to kill, but a lot of people who were "religous" were upset that a lot of what they thought to be true was not. You can learn religon, no just it's beliefes but it's truth and lies too.
    Religious education classes are treated as special. We learnt about religions as part of our history lessons - no greater emphasis than that, even though they weren't ignored. Religions are simply a fact of our cultural history and to claim more for them than that is suspicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by scotty
    So you feel that an informed adult who has the ability to cope in an ever changing world is more adatp to be able to work and discuss with others by NOT understanding them? Are you aware of the term cultrual sensitivity? How do you think that comes into play, or is it that the world should just see it from your perspective and if not F em.
    As I said above, religions can be treated in history class and no more need be said about it. The point of this thread is whether public money should fund a) faith based schools, and b) separate education in school about religion. I do not think either activity is warranted. You?
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  45. #44  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    Moderator's Note: I've deleted several posts that were insulting and flaming. Participants should both consider this a warning: insulting with such vulgarity and then engaging in a flame-war after being insulted will earn you a temp ban in the future.

    I'm not kidding.

    In addition, such posts are deleted without hesitation, regardless of how much time or thought you spend in creating them.
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  46. #45 Re: Funding of Faith Based Schools 
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Where I live up here in the great cold north of Canada in the wonderful province of Ontario we just re-elected a provincial premier(governor). His main opponent who was expected to do well in the election was defeated soundly. The main reason given for the opponent's downfall was that he opened the campaign promising to publicly fund faith based schools. In Canada we have 10 provinces(some may say 11 if you include the far north) and of those I believe 6 are already practicing public funding of faith based schools. Anyway, Ontario having the biggest population of them all decided they wanted no part of funding religious schools.

    What I'll ask the membership is this: should faith based schools feed from the public trough? Personally I think not. I think it would tend to segregate people even more in our multicultural society. Besides if a Satanic worship school were to open up I believe we would have to fund it just to be fair. Sorry atheists, no funding for atheist schools unless its a religion. Taxpayers have enough on their plate and don't need to fund religious schools.
    there is no way we should be funding irrationality, the last thing that should be taught in schools is religion.
    to make the tax payer cover the cost is just adding insult to injury.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  47. #46  
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    Update to the original post: The political party advocating the introduction of funding faith based schools and lost the election because of it has pulled the issue from their political agenda. I think they realized the error of their ways and if they ever hope to get elected to power here then they are really going to have to convince the electorate that this change in mindset is permanent.

    However there is a fly in the ointment. The funding issue has been picked up by various religious groups who consider the situation far from dead. Now that the box is open those groups refuse to let it close. So it looks like it won't ever go away and I am prepared to see this as a major issue in elections to follow. The Islamic leaders for one have declared, now that its out in the open, that they will continue to put pressure on the government to make funding available for faith based schools. I live in a multi-cultural society and I can see religious groups banding together to ensure their flocks vote accordingly. I think its inevitably going to happen and the religions will get their prize.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  48. #47  
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    Unless someone is politically skillful enough to play one religion off of the other.
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    Unless someone is politically skillful enough to play one religion off of the other.
    True! Time to get the rumor mill churning. How about the Muslims are going to make extreme fundamentalism part of their curriculum. That should have a snowball affect.

    Everytime I think of funding faith based schools I feel it would be a giant step backwards. Religion is everywhere. I came out of the stall of a hotel crapper last week and some guy handed me some Christian literature about the upcoming apocalypse. The rest of the religions had better get with it. When the sanctity of the shithouse is violated how long will it be until its the schoolhouse's turn? Then again, it might be good to get religion out of local Johns and at least somewhere else.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  50. #49  
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    The primary text book for all schools in the USA since its inception was the Bible. Harvard, Yale, Princeton were all Bible Colleges when they were founded. (Just a point of interest)

    Part of the issue is that the tax dollars of faith based families is spent on education they do not endorse. They want more say in where their tax dollars go. So the idea is that the tax dollars that are being spent by families that aren't using the public school system (which are failing the students in my area) should be available to the families for the children they have to be sent to a school that will prepare them for college and give them the best chance to succeed.

    Example. It is against the rules for a teacher in any public school system with in 300 miles of where I am sitting as I type this to give any student less than a 60 on any assignment. Even if they do absolutly nothing they get a 60. If they take out their text book and pee into the pages they get a 60. If they get less than a 70 (minimum passing grade) the teacher must provide documentation for x number of times they tried to help the student pass (i.e. extra credit, help times, etc) Most teachers have 150 students a day and most of them are failing. But the teacher because their aren't enough hours in the day to "council" all of the students crammed into his/her work day they have to give them a 70 or risk losing their jobs. We are pumpin out kids that are not prepared for anything. Why would I send my kid into that situation reguardless of the corriculum?
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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