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Thread: Are Muslims free to abandon their faith?

  1. #1 Are Muslims free to abandon their faith? 
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
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    I have a question about Islam: is it allowed for a Muslim to become atheist, or to switch to another religion?

    There seems to be a lot of debate about this. In the Netherlands a former Muslim, Ehsan Jami, who abandoned his faith a few years ago started a committe of ex-Muslims, after being attacked on the street by conservative Muslims who didnt accept his change of faith. And last year a man was almost executed in Afghanistan for converting from Islam to Christianity.
    At wikipedia I found that while the Quran states that "There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:256, it is still forbidden in several Islamic countries to abandon Islam or join another faith. And in Egypt Muslims who join the Bahá'* religion (which claims that all religions worship the same god, and that Mohammed is just one in a list of prophets and not the final one) effectively loose citizenship rights (see this wikipedia article).

    Isn't it a paradox that while most religions, probably Islam as well, emphasise that people should convert voluntarily, and that forced conversions are wrong, people are still sometimes not allowed by law to abandon their religion?


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    In Quran, the answer is as you say: "There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:256

    Also,

    [18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny!
    [18:30] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness.
    [18:31] They have deserved gardens of Eden wherein rivers flow. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and will wear clothes of green silk and velvet, and will rest on comfortable furnishings. What a wonderful reward; what a wonderful abode! [Surat Al KAHF-].


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  4. #3  
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    Thanks for the information!

    Do you know if the Afghans have a different interpretation of the Quran, as they do have laws that prohibit apostasy? The Sura text seems quite clear on this, so it seems that the Afghan law goes against the Quran.

    A follow up question: does the right to disbelieve in Islam mean that all other religions can be practised in Islamic countries, not only the list of accepted religions (like Christianity and Judaism) but also ones like Bahá'*?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    3- hostile apostates: they actively fight Muslims and Islam
    Only in case #3 are Muslims allowed to kill the Mortad (i.e. people who leave Islam); but even then, a peaceful resolution is preferred.
    How do you define "fighting" Islam? Could it be something like preaching another faith?
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  6. #5  
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    what about

    Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
    and what about the hadith?

    Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him
    Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
    Bukhari (84:57)'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.
    Bukhari (89:271)A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle
    Bukhari (84:58 ) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'
    Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"
    Sura (9:29)
    009.029
    YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
    SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Everyone have the right to belief or disbelief, and no one have the right to judge those disbelief but GOD, according to islam rules.
    What a ridiculous load of bullshit. Are you really so ignorant of your own religion, or are you just trying to lie in order to make your religion look less fanatical?

    The Hadith very explicitly says that a muslim who rejects his faith is to be executed, and all the major Madhhab agree.
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    Scifor, even if you have a strong opinion about this you have to constrain yourself. My intention with this thread is to learn some things, not to invite a flame war. And it would help if you'd quote specific texts to back up your argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    Scifor, even if you have a strong opinion about this you have to constrain yourself. My intention with this thread is to learn some things, not to invite a flame war.
    His statement that in Islam people are free to abandon their religion was absurd. Perhaps he personally doesn't think that people who leave Islam should be executed, and if that's the case then I'm glad he's so enlightened - but that's far out of line with mainstream Islam.

    It might seem harsh to call someone's post "bullshit" and to accuse them of either being badly ignorant or a liar, but under the circumstances I think it is completely warranted since:

    1) It was, in fact, bullshit according to well-established Islamic law.
    2) It's very difficult for me to believe that someone as into Islam as he obviously is didn't know it.

    And it would help if you'd quote specific texts to back up your argument.
    Here's a brief summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
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    It's true that : "There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:256
    And ," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve."

    All that are the Words of our GOD,

    But, in this ayat and this sentences, it's not shown the punishement of the man who was Muslim believing in ALLAH and his Messenger Muhammed PBUH and doing prayer and Zakkat and every kind of "Ibadat" which our GOD order us (all the humanity) to do, and after all that he choose to leave the islamic religion so he disbelieve Allah, the Creator of the universe as we believe muslim, and deny prayer and all the rules of islam.

    -So, what's the problem, if a man leave islam, he is not free ?

    He is free to try to leave Islam but he will be punished in consequent.

    -but why, this is unfair?

    No, this is justice

    -How?

    Let's begin by this Aya in Quran (suraat Al Imran, 85)

    "And whose will desire for a religion other than Islam that shall never be accepted from him and in the next world he shall be among the losers."

    Will be continued......

    According to that, I edited my old Post, because i am not ignorant but because i am looking for the truth which let me growing my faith and be proud of being Muslim.


    The arguments and the explanation will be communicated to you very soon, I'm studying this point...
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  11. #10  
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    All that are the Words of our GOD
    And on a side note, please can you stop calling it "OUR" god. It's not our god it's your god. Some of us have a different god, some of us have none at all.
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    Islam teaches that a newborn has an innate ability to know and believe in his creator, and to understand good and evil.
    Muhammad (pbuh) stated: "Every child is born with the believing nature...it is his parents who make him into a Jew or a Christian."

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.

    ==> The Quran, prohibits the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam.

    However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change."

    The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God."
    ==>The Quran says that: "No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allah and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)

    On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate."

    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.


    ==>In many predominately Muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death.

    Assuming that the individual:

    - Was a Muslim
    - Openly rejects Islam,
    - Has made this decision freely and without coercion,
    - Is aware of the nature of his/her statements, and
    - Is an adult. Drunkards and mentally ill persons are excluded from this punishment because they are considered to be not responsible for their statements.

    A person born of a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam is called a "Murtad Fitri" (Apostate - natural). This is viewed a treason against God. They are given a second chance. If they repent of their decision, they will be released. A person who converted to Islam and later rejected the religion is a "Murtad Milli" (apostate - from the community.) This is viewed as treason against the community.

    Our messenger PBUH said :

    "Whoever changes his religion shall be killed."

    "It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam....."


    ISLAM is a DIAMOND, we can never throw a diamond,


    Will be continued...

    another time, Thank you Scifor,

    Proud to be Muslim.
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    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
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    So if you are born into the Muslim religion and later decide that Islam is not the religion for you or that you don't believe in god, you are a "Apostate - natural". What is the punishment for this ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    All that are the Words of our GOD
    And on a side note, please can you stop calling it "OUR" god. It's not our god it's your god. Some of us have a different god, some of us have none at all.
    Excuse me, but

    I am deeply believing that my GOD, is the one who CREATES :

    - The SUN. -----> It's OUR SUN.
    - The Skies,-----> Their Our Skies.
    - The EARTH, ---> It's Our EARTH.

    And he creates, everything you see,
    He creates Me, You, your parents, your grand-parents, all the humanity.
    He creates also ENGLAND.

    He creates the believers one and the diesbelievers also.

    He creates Satan also.

    Finally, He creates Everythings.

    All that according to the quran, a holy book sent by Our GOD to his messenger to all the humanity.

    Allah, to Whom belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. And there is misery for the infidels from a severe torment.
    Those who love the worldly life more than the life of Hereafter arid bar from the path of Allah and desire crookedness therein, they are in far off error. (surat Ibrahim 2,3)



    So, I am free to write, because IT IS OUR GOD, you want it or not.

    I never impose to you a way of writing. It's my Faith.

    --
    Please, let's discuss without useless comment.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003

    He creates Satan also.

    .
    A. I thought satan created himself to have fights( and other fun things :wink: ) up in the clouds with god

    B. Isnt satan from christian mythology?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    So if you are born into the Muslim religion and later decide that Islam is not the religion for you or that you don't believe in god, you are a "Apostate - natural". What is the punishment for this ?
    sherif003 wrote:
    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.
    On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate."
    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.
    So,

    the punishment for apostasy is death.
    BECAUSE,

    ISLAM IS A DIAMOND AND WE CAN NEVER THROW A DIAMOND
    ISLAM IS THE TRUE RELIGION.
    ISLAM HAVE A BIG DIGNITY.
    the result of a treason is DEATH.
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  17. #16  
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    If you dont even know who is in your own book of god, how do you expect people to listen to you? Even though you are obviously very mature and adult, unlike your wives. :wink:
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  18. #17 Re: Are Muslims free to abandon their faith? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I have a question about Islam: is it allowed for a Muslim to become atheist, or to switch to another religion?
    Mr Pendragon,

    Replying at your question,:

    Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.
    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change."
    The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God."

    Quran (al imran 85) say :
    "And whose will desire for a religion other than Islam that shall never be accepted from him and in the next world he shall be among the losers."
    ISLAM IS A DIAMOND AND WE CAN NEVER THROW A DIAMOND .

    Thank you for Raising This point, Mr Pendragon.
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  19. #18 Re: Are Muslims free to abandon their faith? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I have a question about Islam: is it allowed for a Muslim to become atheist, or to switch to another religion?

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change."
    The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God."
    submission to the will of god, not man, so why does man get involved in the issue of leaving?

    Its all about control
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    All i'm asking is that you stop calling GOD, "our (my) GOD". Only I get to choose who my god is, nobody else, whether he exists or not.

    ----------------------------------

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.
    On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate."
    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

    So,

    the punishment for apostasy is death.

    BECAUSE,

    ISLAM IS A DIAMOND AND WE CAN NEVER THROW A DIAMOND
    ISLAM IS THE TRUE RELIGION.
    ISLAM HAVE A BIG DIGNITY.
    the result of a treason is DEATH.
    Thank you, i just wanted that confirmed.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    All i'm asking is that you stop calling GOD, "our (my) GOD". Only I get to choose who my god is, nobody else, whether he exists or not.

    ----------------------------------

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.
    On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate."
    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

    So,

    the punishment for apostasy is death.

    BECAUSE,

    ISLAM IS A DIAMOND AND WE CAN NEVER THROW A DIAMOND
    ISLAM IS THE TRUE RELIGION.
    ISLAM HAVE A BIG DIGNITY.
    the result of a treason is DEATH.
    Thank you, i just wanted that confirmed.
    makes me feel sorry for the people born into the religion or born in an islamic country, what hope do they have if they don't believe

    Not much of a life, im just so glad i live in a western country with modern values
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    [Comment Deleted: no mindless insulting. consult any of the moderators if you don't agree]
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    sherif, your religion is fucking ridicolous.

    understatement of the century
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell
    If you dont even know who is in your own book of god, how do you expect people to listen to you? Even though you are obviously very mature and adult, unlike your wives. :wink:
    Our religion is rich of information
    Our Quran is more than an Ocean of information.
    you know, i had done a technical study to become an industrial engineer, and i am not a "Sheikh" as scholars of islamic religion.
    There is a lage field of knowledge about islam, which are not known but normal people, that's why we should, muslim, look for learning and the scholars have the duty to teach people all about the islam.
    It's not shame to one who is studying, we were not born scientist or schoars.
    Everything ou know is the result of an experience or studying.

    Indeed, in this point, I was confused about two meaning :
    1. There is no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.-->So, it's prohibit the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam.
    2. Apostasy

    ==> After doing some researches in (Al Bukhari) and some references in web, I declare that Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. Simply, the answer will not be understand or accepted by many of you, but because, Allah, Our GOD order us to do that and his messenger also, and when we want to think about that, we should conclude that the CREATOR of this universe, is not playing. Islam is not a game, we must be respectful and serious when we are muslim.
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  25. #24  
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    Religion can be described as a club of some sort, where the leader is never present.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003

    So, I am free to write, because IT IS OUR GOD, you want it or not[?]
    I choose... NOT.

    You want my God?

    And who's this "our". Do you have multiple personality disorder?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell
    If you dont even know who is in your own book of god, how do you expect people to listen to you? Even though you are obviously very mature and adult, unlike your wives. :wink:
    Our religion is rich of information
    Our Quran is more than an Ocean of information.
    you know, i had done a technical study to become an industrial engineer, and i am not a "Sheikh" as scholars of islamic religion.
    There is a lage field of knowledge about islam, which are not known but normal people, that's why we should, muslim, look for learning and the scholars have the duty to teach people all about the islam.
    It's not shame to one who is studying, we were not born scientist or schoars.
    Everything ou know is the result of an experience or studying.

    Indeed, in this point, I was confused about two meaning :
    1. There is no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.-->So, it's prohibit the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam.
    2. Apostasy

    ==> After doing some researches in (Al Bukhari) and some references in web, I declare that Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. Simply, the answer will not be understand or accepted by many of you, but because, Allah, Our GOD order us to do that and his messenger also, and when we want to think about that, we should conclude that the CREATOR of this universe, is not playing. Islam is not a game, we must be respectful and serious when we are muslim.

    Firstly if your book is such an ocean of information, why are you bothering to read scientific books at all?

    secondly, if islam says you cant leave the religion, isn't that between man and his god, rather than other men to decide his fate?

    Basically islam is no different to any other cult, bring them in with false promises and dont let them leave with threats of death and violence, now i can see why theres so many devout muslims...... what choice do they have?????, such a shame, all those human minds under the control of a few, ah well when the lights go out for me, i'll know ive lived my life by my rules and had fun in the process
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003

    So, I am free to write, because IT IS OUR GOD, you want it or not[?]
    And who's this "our".
    Our means we, you and I and all of the members of this forum, and all human was born and all things you see and you don't see.

    Who is your creator ?
    Don't tell me that your ancestor was a monkey

    You are more better than that, you have a brain, you have a will, you are strong with science and faith, never you was cousin to an animal.

    Human is not an animal and animal is not Human.

    You have a mission in your life, but animal hasn't.

    I respect human being and I think he worths much.

    So, I believe and I have a deep faith and thought that these precision in our bodies , this precision in our universe is the product of one Creator.
    It's Our GOD.
    It's ALLAH.

    Hey, Let's discuss about that, "GOD, Where is HE"

    I don't like use the term "Existence" of GOD, because, in my I believe that The GOD had created "the Existence" so he is the EXISTOR of all things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    ah well when the lights go out for me, i'll know ive lived my life by my rules and had fun in the process
    What lights ?

    You know what there is after death?
    Are you sure at 100%?

    Have you visited the grave before and you are now coming to tell us that there is nothing after death, so you invite us to live our life by our rules, so to be atheist and diesbelivers?

    Are you sure at 100%?

    Give us proof!!!

    Maybe You'll regret one day!!
    You'll regret!!

    But, I hope that you find your truly life before dying,
    i hope you study all the religions and make a comparison!!
    and choose your way!!

    I love you all the friends of this forum, i hope that we raise wonderful debates and discussing.
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  30. #29  
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    To all posters (and especially to some of you) if the only contribution you have to make to this discussion is to make offensive remarks about Islam then please take your bigotry elsewhere. Pendragon has attempted to open an informative and potentially useful discussion. I will not have it derailed by individuals so steeped in prejudice that the bile is coming out of their nostrils. Nor do I wish to see a swathe of posts seeking to prove that the authors of said posts are not prejudiced and bigoted. I'm not interested. Stay on topic in an objective fashion.
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman

    Firstly if your book is such an ocean of information, why are you bothering to read scientific books at all?
    The first Word sent to the prophet Muhammed was (IQRA) it means READ or LEARN or RECITE or STUDY.
    So, islam based on science and knowledge and researchs and minded proof. So, the Quran is a holy book containing the words of our GOD,.
    Quran allows to us, when we interprate and when we demonstrate the lot of information in it, to make thousands and millions of books and researchers to understand the deeply meanings of Quran.

    Never, it was shame to learn from other scientist ans Scholar demonstration.

    For your information, "Sahih BUKHARI", contains the speech of MUHAMMED the prophet of ALLAH (PBUH.)

    The first SURAT sent by ALLAH, to the earth was :

    Recite with the name of your Lord Who created,

    He made man from the clot of blood,

    Recite, for your Lord is the Most Generous,

    Who taught writing by the pen.

    Taught man what not.

    Yes, undoubtedly, man transgresses.

    Because, he thought himself self-sufficient.

    Undoubtedly, unto your Lord is the return. Taught man what he knew

    Well, you see him who forbids

    A bondman of Ours when he offers prayer.

    well, you see if he would have been on guidance,

    Or he would have commanded piety, what a good thing it had been.

    Well you see, if he belied and turned back, then what would be his

    condition.

    Did he not know that Allah is seeing?

    Yes, if he desisted not, We will assuredly drag him by catching his forelock hairs.

    forelock of what type, lying, sinful.

    Now let him call his association

    Just now We call Our guards.

    Yes, hear him not and prostrate and draw near to Us.

    Mr captain,

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    secondly, if islam says you cant leave the religion, isn't that between man and his god, rather than other men to decide his fate?
    Our GOD says that He is not joking, Islam is not o game, Islam is submission, Islam is the way to the mercy of our GOD.

    So, the rules and the orders of our GOD should be executed and doing by man, on this earth.!

    YourSelf is not a GOD because you cannot create anything.
    So, try looking for the one who creates you!
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  32. #31  
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    What lights ?
    Its just a saying for losing conciousness

    You know what there is after death?
    Are you sure at 100%?

    Have you visited the grave before and you are now coming to tell us that there is nothing after death, so you invite us to live our life by our rules, so to be atheist and diesbelivers?

    Are you sure at 100%?

    Give us proof!!!

    I have as much proof as you do for the existence of your god, you have the koran, i have richard dawkins, neither can prove the other right or wrong 100%

    Maybe You'll regret one day!!
    You'll regret!!
    ditto, im happy to be a free man on earth, not some slave to a man made idea



    But, I hope that you find your truly life before dying,
    i hope you study all the religions and make a comparison!!
    and choose your way!!
    I have no need for religion in my life, and i know for sure that if i ever did change my mind(which i cant see), the last and i mean the very last religion i would choose would beislam, the reason, i respect myself, my family andmy fellow man too much to go down that route

    I was born in the late 20th century, why would i want to drag my ideology and knowledge back to the 17th
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  33. #32  
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    Our GOD says that He is not joking, Islam is not o game, Islam is submission, Islam is the way to the mercy of our GOD.

    So, the rules and the orders of our GOD should be executed and doing by man, on this earth.!

    YourSelf is not a GOD because you cannot create anything.
    So, try looking for the one who creates you![/quote]

    Surely if your god was so powerful, he wouldn't need man to do his evil deeds???

    "should be executed", do you realise who barbaric that sounds???


    And as for me creating anything, well ive got two beautiful athiestic daughters to prove that wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    sherif, your religion is ......
    understatement of the century

    Mr Ophiolite, Thank you for your intervention,

    I sent to Mr dejawolf this private message

    Mr dejawolf,

    I doesn't insulted your religion or your thought.
    It is supposed that we are, intellectual, discussing and debating with arguments.
    Let's discuss, better than insulting and mocking from each other,

    I hope, that you understand my feeling,
    I hope also that you edit your post, as I never insulted your religion and i will never do.

    I am sure that you will be humanistic, and you don't be glad to do harm to someone.

    I respect all of you and all your thought and religion.

    Insulting is not a good way for discussing and debating between, us.

    I beleieve in Jesus (the messiah), Moise, Noe, Abraham, Israel, Joseph, Daood, ...... and Muhammed
    I want send it to all the members of this forum.

    Please, if it is possible, you can delete the same sentence quoted by captaincaveman.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman

    Surely if your god was so powerful, he wouldn't need man to do his evil deeds???
    You should understand the deep meaning of your existence, GOD is the RICH, He is not waiting us to accomplish his creation.

    He doesn't need to us, but we need HIM.

    So, You are in an Exam, to obey or disobey, to fail or succeed, and the result will be shown after this short life.

    You think the one who gives the SUN it's energy is powerless, !!!
    You think the one who made the seas is powerless, !!!
    You think the one who made the EARTH is powerless, !!!

    I say, NO!! HE IS THE POWERFUL and THE ONE.


    "should be executed", do you realise who barbaric that sounds???
    Well, in my faith I am a free man by being slave to my creator to Our GOD, to ALLAH. so I should obey HIM because i am deeply convinced that this life is just like a trip or a test and I have a mission in it. I'm not animal, i was born human and i have a big faith that this universe is controlled by THE GOD.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman

    Surely if your god was so powerful, he wouldn't need man to do his evil deeds???
    You should understand the deep meaning of your existence, GOD is the RICH, He is not waiting us to accomplish his creation.

    He doesn't need to us, but we need HIM.

    So, You are in an Exam, to obey or disobey, to fail or succeed, and the result will be shown after this short life.

    You think the one who gives the SUN it's energy is powerless, !!!
    You think the one who made the seas is powerless, !!!
    You think the one who made the EARTH is powerless, !!!

    I say, NO!! HE IS THE POWERFUL and THE ONE.


    "should be executed", do you realise who barbaric that sounds???


    Well, in my faith I am a free man by being slave to my creator to Our GOD, to ALLAH. so I should obey HIM because i am deeply convinced that this life is just like a trip or a test and I have a mission in it. I'm not animal, i was born human and i have a big faith that this universe is controlled by THE GOD.
    But you still haven't answered the question, if your god exists, why do these executions need to be carried out by man?, what right has an man to control another? surely a disbelief in a god(or religion), is a personal thing? Anything above that is just pure control, some religions control with the old statemnet of "you'll spend eternity in hell",with that i'll take my chances lol, but islam takes it one step further and means man punishes man on earth(and in some cases women and children) because they disagree, just seems very medieval to me


    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is, an opinion, remember islam isn't followed by the majority of the planet, so what makes you think you are correct and the majority is wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is, an opinion, remember islam isn't followed by the majority of the planet, so what makes you think you are correct and the majority is wrong?
    Now, Captain, I am surprised at you using the fallacy of appeal to the majority. The number of believers - or non believers - is independent of the truth of the belief.
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is, an opinion, remember islam isn't followed by the majority of the planet, so what makes you think you are correct and the majority is wrong?
    Now, Captain, I am surprised at you using the fallacy of appeal to the majority. The number of believers - or non believers - is independent of the truth of the belief.
    well true, i mean im a minority, being an athiest and we are the only people who follow the truth :wink:

    My point was just that its all an opinion and the majority have a different opinion, and what was his claim for 100% proof
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  39. #38 Re: Are Muslims free to abandon their faith? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I have a question about Islam: is it allowed for a Muslim to become atheist, or to switch to another religion?
    Mr Pendragon,

    Replying at your question,:

    Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.
    Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

    There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam.However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change."
    The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God."
    Thank you for the information!

    As you said Islam considers every child to be born as a Muslim (if I'm not mistaken), does this mean that a child of say 12 years old who's raised by Muslim parents is considered to have submitted to Islam? So if a child says he/she wants to quit Islam, is it considered a natural apostate (who may be punished)? Or are only fully grown adults (over 18 or 21 years old) who quit Islam natural apostates?

    Personally I have to agree with CaptainCaveman that Islam is quite harsh on people who quit their religion. Most Christians also believe that after death apostates will be tortured in hell, but on earth they don't harm them (although the social stigma of being an apostate is probably also very hard to bear in conservative Christian communities). Governments should protect the weak from the strong, and I can imagine that being an apostate in a religious community is one of the weakest and hardest positions to be in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion,
    No, I don't think he is entitled to his opinion if his opinion is that he may kill someone for converting to a different religion than his.
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    sherif003
    on numerous occasions, I've told you to posted up intelligent fact based information, which up til now you have neglected to do, yet you keep asking not to be mocked, have you at least concluded why you are being mocked yet.
    I'll ask again try to post factual information, and you will find, you wont be mocked, it is that easy, really.
    do your home work first, thus you will outwit the potential mocker.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion,
    No, I don't think he is entitled to his opinion if his opinion is that he may kill someone for converting to a different religion than his.
    No, i meant in respect to him believing in a god, hes got a right to follow any mythological creatures he wishes

    yeah the other side is a different thing all together, i hate oppression on all levels, but by the looks of it islam takes it to a lack of human rights level

    I think if you have to threaten death for leaving a religion, i'd think you should question just who you are following
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    No thats fine your entitled to your opinion,
    No, I don't think he is entitled to his opinion if his opinion is that he may kill someone for converting to a different religion than his.
    No, i meant in respect to him believing in a god, hes got a right to follow any mythological creatures he wishes
    Except his mythological creature commands him to kill apostates and other assorted nonbelievers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    To all posters (and especially to some of you) if the only contribution you have to make to this discussion is to make offensive remarks about Islam then please take your bigotry elsewhere. Pendragon has attempted to open an informative and potentially useful discussion. I will not have it derailed by individuals so steeped in prejudice that the bile is coming out of their nostrils. Nor do I wish to see a swathe of posts seeking to prove that the authors of said posts are not prejudiced and bigoted. I'm not interested. Stay on topic in an objective fashion.
    Thank you.
    Ophiolite, lets keep some perspective here. Sherif003 has seriously claimed that he thinks people who switch religions should be murdered. How is that view at all worthy of any respect or courtesy? Frankly, I wouldn't want to be part of community where people didn't have a very strong negative reaction to that sort of thing. What could any of the Islam-bashers here say that could even begin to approach advocating religious murder in terms of offensiveness? I'm not at all ashamed to say that I don't think anyone who advocates murdering people who leave their religion deserves to live in the 21st century with the rest of us. Contempt and derision is a completely appropriate response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003

    So, I am free to write, because IT IS OUR GOD, you want it or not[?]
    And who's this "our".
    Our means we, you and I and all of the members of this forum, and all human was born and all things you see and you don't see.

    Who is your creator ?
    Don't tell me that your ancestor was a monkey

    You are more better than that, you have a brain, you have a will, you are strong with science and faith, never you was cousin to an animal.

    Human is not an animal and animal is not Human.

    You have a mission in your life, but animal hasn't.

    I respect human being and I think he worths much.

    So, I believe and I have a deep faith and thought that these precision in our bodies , this precision in our universe is the product of one Creator.
    It's Our GOD.
    It's ALLAH.

    Hey, Let's discuss about that, "GOD, Where is HE"

    I don't like use the term "Existence" of GOD, because, in my I believe that The GOD had created "the Existence" so he is the EXISTOR of all things.
    Sorry. Can't accept your God. He advocates killing people if they leave. Not ready for that kind of commitment, and never will be.

    And you don't know sh*t about Biology. Humans are animals. You wanna dispute that?

    And no, we didn't evolve from monkeys, we had a common ancestor with monkeys.

    Saying monkeys are our ancestors is like saying my cousin gave birth to me.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
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    Ophiolite, it's hard to have civilised discussion with someone when they insist that you have to accept their world view...

    I'm not Muslim. His God is not my God. I'd like if he'd stop saying that.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    To all posters (and especially to some of you) if the only contribution you have to make to this discussion is to make offensive remarks about Islam then please take your bigotry elsewhere. Pendragon has attempted to open an informative and potentially useful discussion. I will not have it derailed by individuals so steeped in prejudice that the bile is coming out of their nostrils. Nor do I wish to see a swathe of posts seeking to prove that the authors of said posts are not prejudiced and bigoted. I'm not interested. Stay on topic in an objective fashion.
    Thank you.
    Ophiolite, lets keep some perspective here. Sherif003 has seriously claimed that he thinks people who switch religions should be murdered. How is that view at all worthy of any respect or courtesy? Frankly, I wouldn't want to be part of community where people didn't have a very strong negative reaction to that sort of thing. What could any of the Islam-bashers here say that could even begin to approach advocating religious murder in terms of offensiveness? I'm not at all ashamed to say that I don't think anyone who advocates murdering people who leave their religion doesn’t deserve to live in the 21st century with the rest of us. Contempt and derision is a completely appropriate response.
    This is your opinion and point of view, This is not evidence, or Big reality what you are saying (not like 1 + 1 =2),. Your view is based on a non muslim faith and on a superficial thought, .
    This is a matter of Islam, This is the rules which God order to us, We are his slave and we will obey him, now and forever until we die.

    All the sins must be punished,
    So, Why, * The Killer must be killed?
    * The adulteress and the adulterer must be flogged each of them with hundred stripes or killed if they are married.
    The adulteress and the adulterer, then flog each of them with hundred stripes, and you should not be compassionate for them in the religion of Allah if you believe in Allah and the Last day. And let a party of the Muslims be present at the time of their punishment.
    The adulterer should not marry but an adulteress or an associatoress and marry not an adulteress but an adulterer or associator, and this deed is forbidden to the believers.
    * The Thief must be imprisonned ? ( According to islam, A thief must be cutted one hand. You know that. )

    We have no shame about the Rules of Allah, It's an exam this life, the intelligent one who will succeed the day after death.

    ==> Religion is not ajoke, Our existence is not a game,
    === > Think a lot about it!!

    ====> You know scifoor, islam is the peaceful religion and the fair religion.

    You'll see that later !! so, be cool, man.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    This is a matter of Islam, This is the rules which God order to us, We are his slave and we will obey him, now and forever until we die.
    Then Islam is a barbaric religion that has no place in the civilized world. Any religion that teaches that people should be murdered for leaving is fundamentally uncivilized and belongs back in the dark ages, not the 21st century.
    You know scifoor, islam is the peaceful religion and the fair religion.
    Unless you happen to leave Islam, in which case it kills you. Oh right, I forgot, it's "fair" to murder someone who leaves your religion. Because your god told you to!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherif003
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    To all posters (and especially to some of you) if the only contribution you have to make to this discussion is to make offensive remarks about Islam then please take your bigotry elsewhere. Pendragon has attempted to open an informative and potentially useful discussion. I will not have it derailed by individuals so steeped in prejudice that the bile is coming out of their nostrils. Nor do I wish to see a swathe of posts seeking to prove that the authors of said posts are not prejudiced and bigoted. I'm not interested. Stay on topic in an objective fashion.
    Thank you.
    Ophiolite, lets keep some perspective here. Sherif003 has seriously claimed that he thinks people who switch religions should be murdered. How is that view at all worthy of any respect or courtesy? Frankly, I wouldn't want to be part of community where people didn't have a very strong negative reaction to that sort of thing. What could any of the Islam-bashers here say that could even begin to approach advocating religious murder in terms of offensiveness? I'm not at all ashamed to say that I don't think anyone who advocates murdering people who leave their religion doesn’t deserve to live in the 21st century with the rest of us. Contempt and derision is a completely appropriate response.
    This is your opinion and point of view, This is not evidence, or Big reality what you are saying (not like 1 + 1 =2),. Your view is based on a non muslim faith and on a superficial thought, .
    This is a matter of Islam, This is the rules which God order to us, We are his slave and we will obey him, now and forever until we die.

    All the sins must be punished,
    So, Why, * The Killer must be killed?
    * The adulteress and the adulterer must be flogged each of them with hundred stripes or killed if they are married.
    The adulteress and the adulterer, then flog each of them with hundred stripes, and you should not be compassionate for them in the religion of Allah if you believe in Allah and the Last day. And let a party of the Muslims be present at the time of their punishment.
    The adulterer should not marry but an adulteress or an associatoress and marry not an adulteress but an adulterer or associator, and this deed is forbidden to the believers.
    * The Thief must be imprisonned ? ( According to islam, A thief must be cutted one hand. You know that. )

    We have no shame about the Rules of Allah, It's an exam this life, the intelligent one who will succeed the day after death.

    ==> Religion is not ajoke, Our existence is not a game,
    === > Think a lot about it!!

    ====> You know scifoor, islam is the peaceful religion and the fair religion.

    You'll see that later !! so, be cool, man.


    You say that you accept murdering married adulterers and apostates and chop the hands off thiefs and you turn round and say islam is a "peaceful" religion, i think peaceful must have a different meaning to you and dont get me started on a "fair" religion, explain to me how a raped woman must have 4 independant witnesses?? that doesn't fit fair either

    Neither does the hanging, beheading and stoning that happens in islamic countrys

    do i have to bring up the case of 16-year-old Atefeh Rajabi who was hung from a crane, Atefeh's crime? Offending public morality. She was found guilty of "acts incompatible with chastity" by having sex with an unmarried man, even though friends say Atefeh was in such a fragile mental state that she wasn't in a position to say no

    So to me religion is a joke and the funniest(if not most tragic) at the top of the list is islam, its backwards, goes against common sense, and human rights, its like the rest of the world 300years ago, and its too stubborn to move forward

    Even when things are known to be wrong, like the peodeophillic relationship of mohammed and Ayesha, islam still trys to justify it, rather than accepting he had(if he ever existed)sexual perverse tendencys which are wrong
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    Do any of you even think sherif is CAPABLE of understanding what you are saying? He has had numerous exchanges with you and others, including me, and has never shown any sign of comprehending even the basics of our arguments. I do not think him fit to engage in a genuine examination of his faith.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Do any of you even think sherif is CAPABLE of understanding what you are saying? He has had numerous exchanges with you and others, including me, and has never shown any sign of comprehending even the basics of our arguments. I do not think him fit to engage in a genuine examination of his faith.
    He has answered several of my questions so far, and I did learn some new things from it. Even if you can't agree with his ideas on principle you can still try to learn something.
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    That would be true if I had not done this before. If you are learning something, be my guest. I, personally, have not recieved any kind of answer regarding this topic I have not heard a million times before.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    That would be true if I had not done this before. If you are learning something, be my guest. I, personally, have not recieved any kind of answer regarding this topic I have not heard a million times before.
    There does seem a pattern with certain islamic followers who just copy and paste the same "wonderful proof", maybe its one of the same people
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    I realise how late this post is, but in the sect im supposed to be in, a person like me (muslim born atheist) must be killed immediatly.
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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    Thats right, you choose what you wish to believe and you have the punishment of death hanging over your head. You have my deepest sympathy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazard
    I realise how late this post is, but in the sect im supposed to be in, a person like me (muslim born atheist) must be killed immediatly.
    My deepest sympathies too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Ophiolite, it's hard to have civilised discussion with someone when they insist that you have to accept their world view...

    I'm not Muslim. His God is not my God. I'd like if he'd stop saying that.
    And I suspect that he and other theists wish the atheists would stop referring to his beliefs as fairy stories. You wish him to respect your standpoint by not referring to his God as your God. He would like the same respect shown to him. You may argue that his beliefs are a fairy story, but he can counter claim that his God is your God.

    Quote Originally Posted by sciforrefugee
    Ophiolite, lets keep some perspective here. Sherif003 has seriously claimed that he thinks people who switch religions should be murdered.
    No, he hasn't. He has claimed that they should be killed. Murder is an illlegal taking of life. Killing an apostate is in accordance with Sharia law. You may feel, as I do, that such a killing is ethically wrong, but it is murder only in a metaphorical and rhetorical sense.
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    Hit and run post: Islam like early Christianity (old testament (if it can be called Christianity give the chronology of it)) is very extreme in what should and should not be done-there is a great similarity between the old testament and the Qu'ran.

    I must thank you Ophiolite for lessening the blow on sherif as I wanted to post something in his defence here given that this discussion has been one sided. Although I personally don't believe that what he says must be done and am offended by his claim as Islam being the one true religion-but then all religions say that don't they? Sherif has to understand that Jesus came down onto Earth and told us the wrong parts of the old testament, and I think modern western society's advancment relative to the middle East's shows the the relgious impact of Islam has greatley slowed them down. It is a pity however.

    PS God is all merciful-all forgiving and all loving so how can 'Allah' (no-one shall know the name of God) allow these things? Simple-he doesn't, its just someone who has come along and changed the holy book to how they want it-just how the catholic church long ago established what religion they wanted by choosing what books were used for the bible. Although I'm sure God will, no I'm confident that God understands that they have been mislead and that they follow the wrong word. God so loved the world that he sacraficed His only son to save it.-more or less those words. Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead to prove His truth.

    On a personal note I must express this to all atheists...do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? If you don't beleive in God then if you do why do you celebrate these holidays-is that not hypocritical?
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Hit and run post: Islam like early Christianity (old testament (if it can On a personal note I must express this to all atheists...do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? If you don't beleive in God then if you do why do you celebrate these holidays-is that not hypocritical?
    Don't be silly. When atheists celebrate these (those that do) they do so as opportunities to take a break, visit family and friends, etc. It has damn all to do with the religious character of the festival.
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    Yes but those holidays aroused from those religious purposes-you have to accept that, like Diwali of the Hindu faith-the whole financial re-setting of businesses is because of that festival. I find it nice that people still use religious holidays to have a break even if they don't celebrate it for that reason-at least religion has given you that . But in hignsight I guess even if Jesus was never born, there would be an end of year holiday so technically your right. Religion and conveinience share the same apartment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Ophiolite, it's hard to have civilised discussion with someone when they insist that you have to accept their world view...

    I'm not Muslim. His God is not my God. I'd like if he'd stop saying that.
    And I suspect that he and other theists wish the atheists would stop referring to his beliefs as fairy stories. You wish him to respect your standpoint by not referring to his God as your God. He would like the same respect shown to him. You may argue that his beliefs are a fairy story, but he can counter claim that his God is your God.
    I've never once referred to my God as his God. He can't expect the same respect if he wasn't showing respect in the first place. If he wants respect, he ought to show it. I'm more than willing to respect him in that case.

    Nor have I called his belief a fairy tale. I may have ridiculed his methods of proving his belief, but I never ridiculed his belief.

    Edit: out of respect for you, though, I'll keep my cool.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Nor have I called his belief a fairy tale. I may have ridiculed his methods of proving his belief, but I never ridiculed his belief.
    I was making general observations relating to comments by others on this and other threads. There has been quite a lot of unseemly criticism of religious beliefs over the last few weeks, that is unbecoming of supposedly objective scientists and those supportive of the scientific method.
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Edit: out of respect for you, though, I'll keep my cool.
    Thank you.
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    i think it mostly correlates to most of us only being pseudoscientists.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    I have four relatives (via previous marriage) who were Muslim and are now athiest, they are all alive and well thanks.

    Meanwhile, there are many examples of Christians who kill people for random reasons, being athiest perhaps the least relavant presently.

    Weren't the KKK God fearing folk? Murder and torture on their list.

    Salem witch trials - Christians burning people with alternative ways of life.

    Red Indians persecuted to point of near extinction.

    George Bush- say no more.

    Religion really doesn't stop men who want to kill from killing, they may use it as an excuse now and then though. It is all about population control, controlling those who seek to be 'different', whether it be religion/colour/way of life. If the difference is perceived as a threat to a way of life, men will kill to subdue it.

    Western history is littered with examples of opression, so we cannot just look in one direction and say 'oh look at those barbarians'....

    just read your own history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    I have four relatives (via previous marriage) who were Muslim and are now athiest, they are all alive and well thanks.
    Then I assume that they were fortunate enough to not live in any of the countries where they execute anyone who tries to leave Islam (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan). Those countries have a combined population of about 350 million. It's not like we're talking about a tiny minority of people here.
    Meanwhile, there are many examples of Christians who kill people for random reasons, being athiest perhaps the least relavant presently.
    Yeah, there are some isolated examples of christians who go nuts and kill people. But they are just that - isolated examples. When it happens, it's a shocking aberration that even the vast majority of christians are opposed to and saddened by. That's very different from having entire countries with hundreds of millions of people where they routinely execute people for apostasy.

    Western history is littered with examples of opression, so we cannot just look in one direction and say 'oh look at those barbarians'....

    just read your own history.
    The key point here is that you are talking about western history, while we are talking about the present state of Islam. Yeah, the christians who burned witches etc. were a bunch of ingnorant, supersitious savages – but christianity seems to have moved itself out of the dark ages and into the 21st century, while many muslims haven’t.

    You could certainly argue that everyone isn't treated completely fairly in the west, but the western world doesn't have anything even remotely close to the opression currently going on in Islamic countries. And yeah, I realize that there are plently of moderate, peacful muslims – but that doesn’t change the fact that there’s also a signicant fraction of them who are total nuts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Western history is littered with examples of opression, so we cannot just look in one direction and say 'oh look at those barbarians'....

    just read your own history.
    True, but we also can't use it to justify or excuse some people today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Then I assume that they were fortunate enough to not live in any of the countries where they execute anyone who tries to leave Islam (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan). Those countries have a combined population of about 350 million. It's not like we're talking about a tiny minority of people here.
    [.

    Dubai and Lebanon.
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  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Western history is littered with examples of opression, so we cannot just look in one direction and say 'oh look at those barbarians'....

    just read your own history.
    True, but we also can't use it to justify or excuse some people today.
    No but we can stop being hypocrites and trying to slag off people as if we are perfect when we are far from it.

    Our history in it's present form is full of abuses. Not isolated cases. WAR is not an isolated case.

    Meanwhile,

    Different cultures are at different stages of development.
    In our history we hung children for stealing a loaf of bread and that was only 100yrs ago.

    What threat was a child stealing bread to the political agenda?
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    No but we can stop being hypocrites and trying to slag off people as if we are perfect when we are far from it.
    So I'm a hypocrite for thinking it’s barbaric to execute people for trying to leave their religion because unsavory things went on in my country’s history? :?

    I have exactly zero responsibility for what went on in my country hundreds of years before I was born. If any of the things that you mention (witch burnings, child executions, etc.) were still going on, I would criticise them just as strongly as I'm criticising the Islamic countries where they kill people for apostacy. But since that sort of thing isn't going on, I don't know what your point is. Are you saying that we shouldn't criticize the atrocities that others are committing today simply because our ancestors committed similar atrocities long before we were born?
    What threat was a child stealing bread to the political agenda?
    While I agree that it's barbaric to kill a child for stealing a loaf of bread, at least the child was committing an actual crime against an actual victim, rather than an imaginary crime against a magical being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee

    I have exactly zero responsibility for what went on in my country hundreds of years before I was born. If any of the things that you mention (witch burnings, child executions, etc.) were still going on, I would criticise them just as strongly as I'm criticising the Islamic countries where they kill people for apostacy. .
    George Bush is alive and well and responsible for killing thousands of innocents, in what could be called a religious war. It's more about money and oil though we'll never know for sure. I presume you are anti war and posting about that atroocity all over the forums?

    As it is your interest has the appearance of racism.

    Much of what you say is inaccurate.

    MOST Muslims are not nuts, MOST are moderate and are governed in some cases by NUTS. Just like America is ruled by a NUT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    George Bush is alive and well and responsible for killing thousands of innocents, in what could be called a religious war. It's more about money and oil though we'll never know for sure. I presume you are anti war and posting about that atroocity all over the forums?
    Yes, as it happens I am against America's war with Iraq. WTF does that have to do with whether or not it's barbaric for countries like Iran to execute people who want to leave Islam? I suppose by that same logic I also shouldn't criticize pedophiles, since Finland sided with the Nazis in WWII. After all, we can't criticize anyone anywhere unless all of our ancestors were perfect saints, right?
    MOST Muslims are not nuts, MOST are moderate and are governed in some cases by NUTS. Just like America is ruled by a NUT.
    I never said that most mulims were nuts. I simply said that there are many mulims (as in, many tens of millions to hundreds of millions) of mulims who are nuts.

    I’m an atheist, so I don’t really have any particular loyalty to any religious tradition. If you’ve read my other posts in the religion forum, you’ll know that I’m very anti-religion in general and I’ve probably spent an order of magnitude more time bashing christianity here than I’ve spent bashing Islam. Of course, that’s mainly because there are far more christian-oriented threads than Islam-related threads. But I can’t help but notice that, although there is a huge variety of religions around the world today (which I more-or-less consider to all be BS) Islam appears to be the only religion that today, in the 21st century, still have many tens of millions of followers who openly advocate religious violence. So yeah, when the subject comes up of course I’m going to have something to say about it. I'm sorry if it dissapoints you to learn that I'm simply anti-religion, rather than a rapid, arab-hating, america-loving U.S. republican.
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    Sci for

    It is really very simple.

    Your interest is not new, it's old. This interest in Islam is the latest topic. Like American/British people really care what happens to Arabs right? You want to save those innocent athiests? Who were as you described them Muslim 'nuts' previously. A nut is a nut is a nut, religion or nil.

    15 yrs ago, the average Western peasant really had zero knowledge (generally speaking) and zero interest in Islam and what was going on in the Arab world.

    So why the sudden interest? hmmmmm ?

    Let's not mention 9/11 .......

    The world doesn't have Ireland under the microscpope and they killed more Britts during their reign of terror than died on 9/11.

    There is another (forget name now as it's NEVER in the news) terrorist organization that is responsible for 60,000 deaths but hey, You don't know who they are either right?
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    The world doesn't have Ireland under the microscpope and they killed more Britts during their reign of terror than died on 9/11.
    I think, as a minor pedantic correction, that your figure is wrong. Total deaths during the recent troubles were in excess of 3000, but that was on both sides of the divide.
    Quote Originally Posted by scifor refugee
    While I agree that it's barbaric to kill a child for stealing a loaf of bread, at least the child was committing an actual crime against an actual victim, rather than an imaginary crime against a magical being.
    The crime is de facto a real one against the state and the established culture. Dressing it up as being religious in character when it is merely about execising control on all aspects of a persons life is not a new trick. The same device is being used by western governments who are enacting all kinds of repressive, invasive measures ostensibly to combat terrorism, but ultimately to afford them greater control over their citizens.
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    And todays truth award goes to...Ophiolite. *hands it to him*
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    The article I read said that the IRA killed nearly 3,500. I will find the link.
    But as you say, a small point.
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    I have a question about Islam: is it allowed for a Muslim to become atheist, or to switch to another religion?

    There seems to be a lot of debate about this. In the Netherlands a former Muslim, Ehsan Jami, who abandoned his faith a few years ago started a committe of ex-Muslims, after being attacked on the street by conservative Muslims who didnt accept his change of faith. And last year a man was almost executed in Afghanistan for converting from Islam to Christianity.
    At wikipedia I found that while the Quran states that "There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:256, it is still forbidden in several Islamic countries to abandon Islam or join another faith. And in Egypt Muslims who join the Bahá'* religion (which claims that all religions worship the same god, and that Mohammed is just one in a list of prophets and not the final one) effectively loose citizenship rights (see this wikipedia article).

    Isn't it a paradox that while most religions, probably Islam as well, emphasise that people should convert voluntarily, and that forced conversions are wrong, people are still sometimes not allowed by law to abandon their religion?
    The question/thread perhaps reflected the distance between the "ideology" and "practice" on ground. Passions seem to prevail over the entire thread. A christian or if a country is identified as christian state because majority of its populations claims to be christian does not reflect or constitutes what in fact is the christianity, the ideology. So a person who identifies himself to be a muslim he may or may not have anything of Islam, the ideology to shape one's life and conduct.

    I say, claim and identify myself as a muslim but the Quran nowhere recognizes, calls, addresses or certifies me to be a muslim. Therefore it would be better to first find what Quran says/advises on the subject and then find what those who claim themselves to be muslim are doing at home and abroad. This will also help reflect human contradictions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Then I assume that they were fortunate enough to not live in any of the countries where they execute anyone who tries to leave Islam (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan). Those countries have a combined population of about 350 million. It's not like we're talking about a tiny minority of people here.
    [.

    Dubai and Lebanon.
    Lebanon? I would hesitate to use it as an example. Mainly, because the president has to be a Christian. The government is designed not to allow certain sects or religion to gain complete power.

    As for Dubai, considering it treats foreign workers as second-rate citizens and is therewith on the Human Rights Watch - I'm not sure whether that is a brilliant example as well for a shining light on apostasy and non-believing. Besides, in terms of population - Dubai represents a small minority, as the post of Scifor specifically mentioned - he was not making a generalisation about the Muslim world or Muslims.

    15 yrs ago, the average Western peasant really had zero knowledge (generally speaking) and zero interest in Islam and what was going on in the Arab world.
    The Gulf war was going about 15 years ago. Would you constitute an intervention in Kuwait a non-interest? If you are talking about the average Western citizen with 'peasant,' could you supply statistics?
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