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Thread: Punishment for disbelief

  1. #1 Punishment for disbelief 
    Forum Professor Obviously's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    If a man who has done nothing but good in his life dies in disbelief and is cast down to eternal hellfire, then your God is EVIL. Don't try and justify it with "he denied God, so he must be punished." Your God would still be doing an act of evil, casting this poor man down to eternal hellfire when he doesn't deserve it.


    Again according to christian theology there is only one person in the world that has "done nothing but good in his life" and died. That was Jesus and that is why his sacrifice is the only one able to cover our sins.

    Because God is so holy he will not allow himself to be in the presence of even a single sin. God isn't evil because he has a very high standard. He is holy and merciful becuase he gave us a way to be forgiven in the sacrifice of his only son Jesus. According to Christian Theology anyone who beleives that Jesus is the Son of God, died for your sins, in your place, and is risen again will be born again.

    If you want to discuss the state of christianity and why its so messed up start a new thread and I'll chime in.
    It still doesn't explain why God would want to damn a good person to eternal hellfire just because he doesn't believe in him. It's God's responibility to make that person believe, and therefore God can't blame the good person for his disbelief with eternal hellfire. Also, it's a pretty bad punishment even for a not so good person :?


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  3. #2  
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    Disclaimer: all my discussion here is from a christian standpoint that is independent of fundamentalism and conservativism though at times there may be points that could called such. Also there will be quotations from the christian bible.


    Obviously said,
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?
    =============================
    Obviously said,
    "It still doesn't explain why God would want to damn a good person to eternal hellfire just because he doesn't believe in him."

    This statement is debatable on a couple levels.
    -----------------------------
    God does not want anyone to suffer "eternal Hellfire"

    "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 NASB
    -----------------------------
    The standard of a good person in our eyes is different from that of God, It's probably even different from your friends, neighbors, and family.

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 We are all sinners. Everyone has done somehting that was displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent.

    If human goodness was meaured on a scale from 1 to 10 Evil to good, The requirement for heaven would be to score a 1000.

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

    As far as the judgement goes there is guilty and not guilty and thats it.

    However;

    "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8.

    God's love is demonstrated in that he gave Jesus His son to die in the place of ever human in the world.

    No one hase ever been condemned to hell for refusing to believe in christ. They were already sentanced for the sins they had committed and refused the pardon and sacrifice God provided.

    If I wrote you a million dollar check you can't get he money till you cash it.

    The payment for your sin has been made and all you have to do is accept it to recieve it.


    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  4. #3  
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong

    This statement is debatable on a couple levels.
    -----------------------------
    God does not want anyone to suffer "eternal Hellfire"
    -----------------------------
    The standard of a good person in our eyes is different from that of God, It's probably even different from your friends, neighbors, and family.
    then what you need to do is define the differences between what God considers good and what man refers to as good, now I know you can argue that you can not know the mind of god but the differences cant be that far apart, can they.

    I think you playing a strawman hand here.

    The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?
    People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christians. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in.
    a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

    so please define what god considers as good thanks?
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Disclaimer: all my discussion here is from a christian standpoint that is independent of fundamentalism and conservativism though at times there may be points that could called such. Also there will be quotations from the christian bible.


    Obviously said,
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:

    =============================
    Obviously said,
    "It still doesn't explain why God would want to damn a good person to eternal hellfire just because he doesn't believe in him."

    This statement is debatable on a couple levels.
    -----------------------------
    God does not want anyone to suffer "eternal Hellfire"

    "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 NASB

    -----------------------------
    The standard of a good person in our eyes is different from that of God, It's probably even different from your friends, neighbors, and family.

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 We are all sinners. Everyone has done somehting that was displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent.

    If human goodness was meaured on a scale from 1 to 10 Evil to good, The requirement for heaven would be to score a 1000.

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

    As far as the judgement goes there is guilty and not guilty and thats it.

    However;

    "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8.

    God's love is demonstrated in that he gave Jesus His son to die in the place of ever human in the world.

    No one hase ever been condemned to hell for refusing to believe in christ. They were already sentanced for the sins they had committed and refused the pardon and sacrifice God provided.

    If I wrote you a million dollar check you can't get he money till you cash it.

    The payment for your sin has been made and all you have to do is accept it to recieve it.

    So for people who don't know, they are just to be doomed? What are you recieving anyway? Belief? Holy Spirit? God's message is so unclear, which makes you wonder if he's playing games with us or something. He alone has the responsibility to convince people, because as an atheis, if god ever appeared infront of me out of nowhere and preformed a miracle or two I would allready be convinced. It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you. Even I tried that with full hope that he would come, but did he? If God is playing with us for his own amusemeant, then that makes him sadistic.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong

    This statement is debatable on a couple levels.
    -----------------------------
    God does not want anyone to suffer "eternal Hellfire"
    -----------------------------
    The standard of a good person in our eyes is different from that of God, It's probably even different from your friends, neighbors, and family.
    then what you need to do is define the differences between what God considers good and what man refers to as good, now I know you can argue that you can not know the mind of god but the differences cant be that far apart, can they.

    I think you playing a strawman hand here.

    The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?
    People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christians. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in.
    a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

    so please define what god considers as good thanks?
    Does it say in the bible he's omniscient? Well, then free will is impossible, and for those who end up in Hell... Heck, they were doomed anyway
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    ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.

    First can I please have the reference for this,
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
    ---------------------
    Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:
    --------------------------
    (Please read this all the way through at least one time before you go back and try to refute it please : P)
    Free will VS omniscience.

    We need to understand that if the christian bible is true then we are in the heat of a war that has raged for over 6000 years. This is a highly strategic war between Lucifer (a onetime angel that was close to God) and God himself. Lucifer also known biblically as "the morning star" is no stupid bumbling fool. Logic is not evil, science is not evil, a 57 chevy is not evil. But all 3 can be used for purposes contrary to the will of God or in direct opposition of Him. We as intellegent beings are being lured away from faith by logic arguements. In our arrogance we say that the God of everything has to conform to "my" standards or I refuse to believe in that selfish, spiteful, pupetmaster of deceit. God is beyond our logic and not bound to it. A prime example is that of Free will in the presence of an omniscient God. The quick answer that will probably leave you wanting more is that God is also omnipotent which means he can do what he wants. Only an omnipotent God can give us a choice even though he already knows which choice we will choose. Yes, that statement defies human logic, but I again suggest to you that God is not bound within the realm of our logic, or knowledge, or justice or anything. The only way we have a chance to understand His ways are to align ourselves with Him.

    Christianity is not the end or antithesis of science and logic. Within christianity is acceptance that God is over them and not subject to them.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I think you playing a strawman hand here.

    The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?.
    so please define what god considers as good thanks?
    I'm not shifting anyones side. Just simply trying to answer a question. If you feel that I have not done that adequatly please rephrase the question and I'll try again.

    The holy bible describes God an many things more that what is mentioned here. The issue is that when people hear "loving god" we think only capable of showing love 24-7 no excuses. The bible also speaks of god as a leader, warrior, judge, caregiver, provider, and many others. Think of an earthy father. My father loved me and never stopped until his death. That didn't stop him from beating me when I had done something wrong. Dad had the authority to let me do whatever I pleased but he knew that wasn't what was best for me. I could have chosen to ignore him and get angry at his punishments and fight against him. His love never would end but his disappointment in me would grow. God calls everyone in the world to his side, everyone has a chance at some point to
    to acknowledge god as God and recieve salvation. (this brings us to what about kids that die at childbirth (this is most commonly explained as the age of accountability. Once a person is aware and able to understand salvation they are responsible for their actions before god who is just. However, his mercy and loving forgiveness will be given to those he chooses.
    -----------

    When asked the question, "Why doesn't God just show up and say, " I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME, LOVE ME"?" There are a couple of views.

    One is He did. And we killed him for it. We have to understand the biblical history of the world and the pre earth existence of God. I'll plow through this and if you want bible references i'll add them in later.

    Basically. God was in heaven (the dwelling place of God) with the angels. God gave the angels (his servants which he also created) freedoms as saw fit. Within this freedom Lucifer, the angel who was closest to God chose to revolt and with him 1/3 of the angels of heaven waged war against God. God cast the angels that revolted and their leader into "outer darkness" Some time later God decided to make a new creation. He made the world and universe that houses it. On this world he made many animals and plants. His biggest creation was something else. Something made special. The rest of the earth he and all of creation were made by the command of God. Let x Be. Let Y Be and he saw that they were good. When he made mankind (adam) he knelt down by a creek and took some mud and formed him with his own two hands. Then he breathed life into him. All the time Lucifer, who used to be the favored angel, watced with anger and jealousy. God gave man a perfect world to live in. Then he gave him woman (insert obligitory joke here). Satan (formerly known as Lucifer) decieved mankind and because they chose to break the only rule that God gave them, "of the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat", they had sin in their lives and god would not allow them to dwell with Him in paradise. As punishment death now entered the world. (for the wages of sin is death) This began the first of many opportunities for redemption and forgiveness offered by God. This also was the beginning of the law. In the garden people had only one evil choice. It did not occure to Adam and Eve to do any evil act. The Tree of the Knowlede of Good and Evil is what made them accountable for their following trespasses. When they didn't know the difference between good and evil the only thing they could do was good. With the help of a jealous fallen angel we did the only wrong thing in the world. This same principle is why christians believe babies who perish don't go to hell. They are not yet accountable for their sins as they do not know the difference between good and evil yet. As time progressed satan began to put down increasingly numerous traps to decieve mankind and lead them away from God. In these day God still spoke openly with mankind even in the presence of their sinfullness. As generations past and satans influence grew people fell away and some chose not to believe in God. The situation worsened until only one person in the world was deemed worthy of saving and God did just that. (By deemed worthy of saving I mean that others had utterly rejected God and he knew they would not return to Him) So he decided to start over. Noah and his sons and their wives were chosen to replenish the earth and God used them to spare enough land animals to perpetuate each kind of animal. Flood... Years later as new families began to spread out among the regions of the fertil crescent Lucifer again went to work. It only takes one generation for miracles to become myth and people soon were decieved again. Since then satan has used disbelief, logic, and false religions to lead people away from God.

    God chose a line of people to call his children. Anyone could be adopted into the family of God but they had to follow His laws. After the Adamic Covenent, God made a covenant with abraham (Abrahamic covenant), then with King David (Davidic covenant), then finally with Jesus in the Jesuic Covenant.

    Rewind...

    After the flood Satan (formely lucifer) still in charge of his fallen 1/3 of the angels started to mislead and sway the people by any means neccessary. The invention of religioin, false religion, and non religion engulfed the people of the world. From each of these 3 standpoints he has continued to corrupt Gods creation. We all still have a choice to follow God or to fall for any of the hundreds of other options that lead away from Gods plan of redemption. Why doesn't God just appear and do miracles... he did. The red sea parting, the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, Mana from the sky, apprearing to individuals and calling them on many occasions. After all these miracles because mankind is so tied up in sin, pride, arrogance, etc. Satan was able to decieve them yet again. In some cases during the same generation or the next generation of the people who actually experienced the miracle. God continued to show his anger and his love by chastising his people and still giving them opportunity follow Him. As the Jewish nation prospered and fell it did so with the blessing or curse of God. Untill finally the Jews were so hung up on religion, so hung up on the law, so ignorant to what their God really wanted from them he initiated his final plan. The last plea with humanity he utter in attemp to show them how much he loved them. God sent His only son Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life under the law of God and never sinned. His Blood was the sacrifice for all mankind who would believe in Him and the love the Father has them. God did miracle after miracle after miracle and when wasn't enough for us he sent His son to die in our place. What more should we ask of Him. He has alredy done so much more than we deserve.

    Bottomline. God doesn't want religion. He wants a relationship. A real friendship like with Adam when they walked aorund in the cool of the day and just talked about stuff. God made a great deal of sacrifices for us. But Satan has even twisted many of the churches of today into ineffective squabbling lazy nonbelievers (the bible describes these people as "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"

    I am an astronaut. I have studied space travel and can speak intellegently about it. Just because I say I am an astronout and can speak about does it mean thats true? I'm not an astronout untill I suit up and fly into space.

    I am a fisherman. I know all about fishing. I have a fishing pole. I have bait. I have boat. I know all the types of fish you can catch, where to catch them, and how to clean and prepare them. I am greatest fisherman alive.
    However, Until I go and catch a fish am I really a fisherman.

    Satans deception is so prevelant in todays world that many "christians" will end up in hell besid the "unbeliever".

    Matthew Chapter 7:

    13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


    The religion of Christianity is of this world becuase God didn't ask for religions. He asked for a relationship. This is why unnumerable trajedies are carried out in the "name of Christ" and why so many more atrocities are carried out by other religions that have no connection at all (no matter how fleeting or trivial) to the real savier that is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus is an equal part of the trinity along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit (this is why many religions consider christianity to be polytheistic. Becuase they don't understand or are unwilling to accept the existence of the Trinity (not the hot one from the matrix)).

    Just some thoughts.
    If we disagree then you must be right...
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.

    First can I please have the reference for this,
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
    ---------------------
    Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:
    --------------------------
    (Please read this all the way through at least one time before you go back and try to refute it please : P)
    Free will VS omniscience.

    We need to understand that if the christian bible is true then we are in the heat of a war that has raged for over 6000 years. This is a highly strategic war between Lucifer (a onetime angel that was close to God) and God himself. Lucifer also known biblically as "the morning star" is no stupid bumbling fool. Logic is not evil, science is not evil, a 57 chevy is not evil. But all 3 can be used for purposes contrary to the will of God or in direct opposition of Him. We as intellegent beings are being lured away from faith by logic arguements. In our arrogance we say that the God of everything has to conform to "my" standards or I refuse to believe in that selfish, spiteful, pupetmaster of deceit. God is beyond our logic and not bound to it. A prime example is that of Free will in the presence of an omniscient God. The quick answer that will probably leave you wanting more is that God is also omnipotent which means he can do what he wants. Only an omnipotent God can give us a choice even though he already knows which choice we will choose. Yes, that statement defies human logic, but I again suggest to you that God is not bound within the realm of our logic, or knowledge, or justice or anything. The only way we have a chance to understand His ways are to align ourselves with Him.

    Christianity is not the end or antithesis of science and logic. Within christianity is acceptance that God is over them and not subject to them.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I think you playing a strawman hand here.

    The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?.
    so please define what god considers as good thanks?
    I'm not shifting anyones side. Just simply trying to answer a question. If you feel that I have not done that adequatly please rephrase the question and I'll try again.

    The holy bible describes God an many things more that what is mentioned here. The issue is that when people hear "loving god" we think only capable of showing love 24-7 no excuses. The bible also speaks of god as a leader, warrior, judge, caregiver, provider, and many others. Think of an earthy father. My father loved me and never stopped until his death. That didn't stop him from beating me when I had done something wrong. Dad had the authority to let me do whatever I pleased but he knew that wasn't what was best for me. I could have chosen to ignore him and get angry at his punishments and fight against him. His love never would end but his disappointment in me would grow. God calls everyone in the world to his side, everyone has a chance at some point to
    to acknowledge god as God and recieve salvation. (this brings us to what about kids that die at childbirth (this is most commonly explained as the age of accountability. Once a person is aware and able to understand salvation they are responsible for their actions before god who is just. However, his mercy and loving forgiveness will be given to those he chooses.
    -----------

    When asked the question, "Why doesn't God just show up and say, " I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME, LOVE ME"?" There are a couple of views.

    One is He did. And we killed him for it. We have to understand the biblical history of the world and the pre earth existence of God. I'll plow through this and if you want bible references i'll add them in later.

    Basically. God was in heaven (the dwelling place of God) with the angels. God gave the angels (his servants which he also created) freedoms as saw fit. Within this freedom Lucifer, the angel who was closest to God chose to revolt and with him 1/3 of the angels of heaven waged war against God. God cast the angels that revolted and their leader into "outer darkness" Some time later God decided to make a new creation. He made the world and universe that houses it. On this world he made many animals and plants. His biggest creation was something else. Something made special. The rest of the earth he and all of creation were made by the command of God. Let x Be. Let Y Be and he saw that they were good. When he made mankind (adam) he knelt down by a creek and took some mud and formed him with his own two hands. Then he breathed life into him. All the time Lucifer, who used to be the favored angel, watced with anger and jealousy. God gave man a perfect world to live in. Then he gave him woman (insert obligitory joke here). Satan (formerly known as Lucifer) decieved mankind and because they chose to break the only rule that God gave them, "of the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat", they had sin in their lives and god would not allow them to dwell with Him in paradise. As punishment death now entered the world. (for the wages of sin is death) This began the first of many opportunities for redemption and forgiveness offered by God. This also was the beginning of the law. In the garden people had only one evil choice. It did not occure to Adam and Eve to do any evil act. The Tree of the Knowlede of Good and Evil is what made them accountable for their following trespasses. When they didn't know the difference between good and evil the only thing they could do was good. With the help of a jealous fallen angel we did the only wrong thing in the world. This same principle is why christians believe babies who perish don't go to hell. They are not yet accountable for their sins as they do not know the difference between good and evil yet. As time progressed satan began to put down increasingly numerous traps to decieve mankind and lead them away from God. In these day God still spoke openly with mankind even in the presence of their sinfullness. As generations past and satans influence grew people fell away and some chose not to believe in God. The situation worsened until only one person in the world was deemed worthy of saving and God did just that. (By deemed worthy of saving I mean that others had utterly rejected God and he knew they would not return to Him) So he decided to start over. Noah and his sons and their wives were chosen to replenish the earth and God used them to spare enough land animals to perpetuate each kind of animal. Flood... Years later as new families began to spread out among the regions of the fertil crescent Lucifer again went to work. It only takes one generation for miracles to become myth and people soon were decieved again. Since then satan has used disbelief, logic, and false religions to lead people away from God.

    God chose a line of people to call his children. Anyone could be adopted into the family of God but they had to follow His laws. After the Adamic Covenent, God made a covenant with abraham (Abrahamic covenant), then with King David (Davidic covenant), then finally with Jesus in the Jesuic Covenant.

    Rewind...

    After the flood Satan (formely lucifer) still in charge of his fallen 1/3 of the angels started to mislead and sway the people by any means neccessary. The invention of religioin, false religion, and non religion engulfed the people of the world. From each of these 3 standpoints he has continued to corrupt Gods creation. We all still have a choice to follow God or to fall for any of the hundreds of other options that lead away from Gods plan of redemption. Why doesn't God just appear and do miracles... he did. The red sea parting, the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, Mana from the sky, apprearing to individuals and calling them on many occasions. After all these miracles because mankind is so tied up in sin, pride, arrogance, etc. Satan was able to decieve them yet again. In some cases during the same generation or the next generation of the people who actually experienced the miracle. God continued to show his anger and his love by chastising his people and still giving them opportunity follow Him. As the Jewish nation prospered and fell it did so with the blessing or curse of God. Untill finally the Jews were so hung up on religion, so hung up on the law, so ignorant to what their God really wanted from them he initiated his final plan. The last plea with humanity he utter in attemp to show them how much he loved them. God sent His only son Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life under the law of God and never sinned. His Blood was the sacrifice for all mankind who would believe in Him and the love the Father has them. God did miracle after miracle after miracle and when wasn't enough for us he sent His son to die in our place. What more should we ask of Him. He has alredy done so much more than we deserve.

    Bottomline. God doesn't want religion. He wants a relationship. A real friendship like with Adam when they walked aorund in the cool of the day and just talked about stuff. God made a great deal of sacrifices for us. But Satan has even twisted many of the churches of today into ineffective squabbling lazy nonbelievers (the bible describes these people as "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"

    I am an astronaut. I have studied space travel and can speak intellegently about it. Just because I say I am an astronout and can speak about does it mean thats true? I'm not an astronout untill I suit up and fly into space.

    I am a fisherman. I know all about fishing. I have a fishing pole. I have bait. I have boat. I know all the types of fish you can catch, where to catch them, and how to clean and prepare them. I am greatest fisherman alive.
    However, Until I go and catch a fish am I really a fisherman.

    Satans deception is so prevelant in todays world that many "christians" will end up in hell besid the "unbeliever".

    Matthew Chapter 7:

    13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


    The religion of Christianity is of this world becuase God didn't ask for religions. He asked for a relationship. This is why unnumerable trajedies are carried out in the "name of Christ" and why so many more atrocities are carried out by other religions that have no connection at all (no matter how fleeting or trivial) to the real savier that is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus is an equal part of the trinity along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit (this is why many religions consider christianity to be polytheistic. Becuase they don't understand or are unwilling to accept the existence of the Trinity (not the hot one from the matrix)).

    Just some thoughts.
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    Sorry i forgot to answer a couple questions I'll post them in a bit when I have time

    " So for people who don't know, they are just to be doomed? What are you recieving anyway? Belief? Holy Spirit?"

    "so please define what god considers as good thanks?"

    I'll get to these asap
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    ROFL thanks for that amazingly intellectual reply Ghost of maxwell lol.
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    Where do you get your info that Satan had been God's favorite or closest? My memory recalls that Satan was a cherub, which if I remember right is below the rank of a seraph and not as close to God's throne at that. Not to mention Michael is the arch angel, thus he out ranks the seraphs and every other angel. On top of that Jesus is God's only begotten son; you'd think He'd be closer to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    ROFL thanks for that amazingly intellectual reply Ghost of maxwell lol.
    Sorry I need to get through my nanas "tale of two cities" before I can read through that, can I get back to you in a month?
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    On the question of our lives being predetermined: when I was still clinging to religion, I used to argue that god let us come into being simply knowing what path we will choose and not choosing it for us. The thing is, for some people it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a christian. They simply might never hear of christianity, are predisposed towards evidence and a purely scientific way of looking at things, be born into another religion, etc etc. I've had conversations with pastors and such about this question and usually got the "chosen people" argument, which to me is absolute bullshit.

    I've always held that NO religion is right. If a god exists, he would undoubtably have an absolute understanding of every person's inner workings and given that, COULD NEVER banish someone to eternal suffering. Nothing that anyone can do can ever warrant them to eternal suffering! Religions have through the ages been changed to suit the needs of the people in charge. This is evident in the fact that all the rules and guidelines of the different religions are decidedly HUMAN in nature. A truely all-knowing god could never come up with some of the nonsense that some religions are comprised of (if you swear at your neigbour, for instance, saying a certain amount of "hail Mary"s would save you from hell!)

    Having said this, I am sure that if a person were so inclined, he could extract countless pearls of wisdom from the bible. I think that a lot of the people involved in the writing of the bible were being sincere and well-meaning and even were deep philosophers. The same can be said for most of the main religions.

    In summation: no-one will go to hell. Either god exists and he/she COULD NOT banish anyone to hell, or he/she does'nt and you simply rott in the ground.

    P.S: If a being did a "miracle" in front of me, he'd be an advanced alien.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    I wasn't saying he was closer to God than Jesus was. I was saying he was the closest angel (looking up source now) back to you soon. Jesus is not an angel. Jesus is a part of the God Head or Trinity. ( I spoke about that briefly in the post) Sorry for the confusion.
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    I don't follow the predestination doctrine some do about the bible.

    I agree with you that religion is pretty messed up and your right. The hail mary's thing is rediculous (a product of man made religion)

    I am not promoting religion I am suggesting that the bible shows Gods desire for a relationship with us. Not a religious lifestiyle following the whims of men.

    More to come
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    Can you really "choose" what to believe, anyway? I mean, even if you decided that you were afraid of going to hell and decided to become a christian on the off chance that christianity is right, it's not like you could just suddenly make yourself start believing something that's irrational and not supported by evidence. It's like me saying "You have to believe that there's a vampire living in my garage. If you don't, I'll shoot you. If you do believe, I'll pay you a million dollars." Obviously you don't want to get shot and you want the money, but that doesn't mean that you can just magically make yourself start believing that I have a vampire in my garage. At best you would only be able to lie and say that you believe, while in your head you would still think that vampires are fantasy creatures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.

    First can I please have the reference for this,
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
    Sorry, I was wrong. This is what I meant: Jesus Is Imaginary

    ---------------------
    Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:
    The one demanding belief is God, or Jesus.

    --------------------------
    (Please read this all the way through at least one time before you go back and try to refute it please : P)
    Free will VS omniscience.

    We need to understand that if the christian bible is true then we are in the heat of a war that has raged for over 6000 years. This is a highly strategic war between Lucifer (a onetime angel that was close to God) and God himself. Lucifer also known biblically as "the morning star" is no stupid bumbling fool. Logic is not evil, science is not evil, a 57 chevy is not evil. But all 3 can be used for purposes contrary to the will of God or in direct opposition of Him. We as intellegent beings are being lured away from faith by logic arguements. In our arrogance we say that the God of everything has to conform to "my" standards or I refuse to believe in that selfish, spiteful, pupetmaster of deceit. God is beyond our logic and not bound to it. A prime example is that of Free will in the presence of an omniscient God. The quick answer that will probably leave you wanting more is that God is also omnipotent which means he can do what he wants. Only an omnipotent God can give us a choice even though he already knows which choice we will choose. Yes, that statement defies human logic, but I again suggest to you that God is not bound within the realm of our logic, or knowledge, or justice or anything. The only way we have a chance to understand His ways are to align ourselves with Him.

    Christianity is not the end or antithesis of science and logic. Within christianity is acceptance that God is over them and not subject to them.

    God knew what Lucifer/Satan would do in the Garden of Eden. He knew everything that would happen and allowed it. So it's really God's fault that he let the Serpent decieve Eve. God knows everything :wink:

    -----------------------------------------------
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    I've been fairly open minded with the possibility of the trinity in the past, but have concluded that it would be an impossibility by my view. Not trying to attack your perspective here, but my personal observation is that the bible sooner claims pantheism than a triune, yet I do not consider pantheism the intent by any means.

    The Hebrew YHWY known as the Father is an entity that would have had to be the creator of the Son in order for any of it to make sense. The Son not being a fellow creation with us is a direct contradiction to the past-infinity of God. Not to mention that the bible does state Jesus to be God's 'only begotten' son; thus created, just before everything else was. Which means that God the Father was in existence separate of Jesus.

    My personal evaluation of the bible is that as the bible refers to both Satan and Jesus as having obtained god status in a sense; we would still be expected to worship God in a monotheistic way, while acknowledging some level of hard-polytheism in existence.

    I'll give it to you that the bible never directly speaks of Jesus as an angel, the closest thing being when it says he'll shout with an arch angel's call during Armageddon (or something close to that). I'm not quite certain I agree, but some believe that it means Jesus was actually Michael before he earned the name 'Jesus' by being the savior.

    What we do know though is that from three different types of bibles I have in my house: a King James, a modernized translation, and a catholic bible said to be of the Confraternity edition all seem to be similar in John 1:18 saying, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." ~KJ
    "No one has at any time seen God. The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." ~ Catholic
    "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him." ~ New

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you what you have to believe. But I think that particular scripture above is one that gives justification for people that believe in the bible to believe other than the trinity.
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    A couple things.

    [quote="Obviously"]
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.

    First can I please have the reference for this,
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
    Sorry, I was wrong. This is what I meant: Jesus Is Imaginary
    We have another thread where this is being debated.

    -----------------------------

    [quote="Obviously"]
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:
    The one demanding belief is God, or Jesus.

    --------------------------
    Could you please tell me where you saw this information as I haven't seen anyplace in christian scripture where God or Jesus claims it is their responsibility to make a person believe.

    -----------------------------

    The belief that Jesus was Micheal the arch angel in flesh stems from the jehovah's witness religion. Which is not a form of christianity (If Christianity is true) but is considered a cult. That believe comes from the retranslation of the scripture from texts that were unreliable and by a group of men who didn't know greek or hebrew but had a very rudimentary understanding of the languages. Even among the watchtower society they could not agree on the translation and have released editions of the "scripture according to them".

    Trinity Scriptures include but may not be limited to:
    John 1 1-14 (there is more but this directly applies)

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.
    3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    8He(John the witness) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    (emphasis added also the phrase (John the witness) was added for clarification sake)

    The Jehovah's witness teaching that that the word was A God instead of the word was God is a direct contradiction to the teaching of the old testament theology upon which the new testament stands.

    ---------
    this is a prime example of how a small twist can be used to obscure and lead away those who acknowlede God and his authority. By simply attempting to add the indefinate article a the divinity of Jesus is questioned. However there are many more verses in the old and new testiment to substantiate the existence of One God in Three Parts.

    No offense taken Happy dude. I am glad that peole who disagree can still discuss things civily and not try to kill each other. Your opinions are welcome with me. I really enjoy maxwells jabs too : P they make me giggle.
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    [quote="couldbewrong"]A couple things.

    [quote="Obviously"]
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.

    First can I please have the reference for this,
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
    Sorry, I was wrong. This is what I meant: Jesus Is Imaginary
    We have another thread where this is being debated.

    Ah, ok. Then we'll leave that one out.

    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    "It's God's responibility to make that person believe"

    Says who?

    The one demanding belief :wink:
    The one demanding belief is God, or Jesus.

    --------------------------
    Could you please tell me where you saw this information as I haven't seen anyplace in christian scripture where God or Jesus claims it is their responsibility to make a person believe.

    -----------------------------

    If God or Jesus is going to judge people based upon what they believe, then they have the responsibility that everyone believes the right thing. That is what I mean.
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    By christian Thology he has bent over backwards and screamed it from the mountaintops to get our attention. He even sent his Son who already did exactly what people today seem to want. "Why doesn't he just show up and work a few miracles infront of me..." He did that.

    4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    And then Religion, which I agree is a dangerous thing, had Him sentanced to death. But in that death he gave us everything we need for forgiveness. All we have to do is believe.

    But we have gotten so far from Him that now peole argue weather or not he even existed (Reference other post in religion section).


    He has met and exceeded any responsibility that may have fallen on His shoulders. If we refuse to beleive thats just our bad.
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    God still has the responsibility to convince us
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    Did you just decide that one day or do you have a source you can refer me to?
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    What source? Isn't it logical that God has the responsibility to convince us, other than ancient unclear history? An allknowing God would know that the story isn't enough anymore, therefore God has a responsibility to convince us he exists in order to judge us afterwards, fair and just. If we deny him even after he has appeared to us or something, then he has all reason to judge one to Hell. But to judge one that didn't believe because evidence wasn't there etc, he will be unfair since he has a responsibility to make us certain he exists. If not then he can't be fair and just. It's pure logic! Common!
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    By christian Thology he has bent over backwards and screamed it from the mountaintops to get our attention. He even sent his Son who already did exactly what people today seem to want. "Why doesn't he just show up and work a few miracles infront of me..." He did that.
    The problem with this claim is that there is no clear cut evidence that Jesus existed. There is no clear cut evidence that he performed miracles. All we have are some stories written decades after the events. That rather calls the whole basis of Christianity into question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    By christian Thology he has bent over backwards and screamed it from the mountaintops to get our attention. He even sent his Son who already did exactly what people today seem to want. "Why doesn't he just show up and work a few miracles infront of me..." He did that...
    According to a 2000+ year old book that's contradicted by every other available historical source. There is no reason to take the bible any more seriously than any other ancient book of magic stories. A just, rational god would realize this.
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    I was just pointing out that the very thing you asked for happened. And now 2000 years later People with their sinful nature being led away from the truth by Lucifer (satan, or whatever you choose to call him) brings us to the world we see today.

    Even if you don't agree that this is what happened isn't it at least plausable?

    If there is a "great misleader" who is not succeptable to death and is widely influential, could he have erased or shaped history to bring the existence of his enemy into question in an attempt to gain some degree of victory over Him by misleading those whom He loves into doubting His very existence?
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    But don't forget that God can at anytime appear and show himself easily so that people can get rid of their doubt. That's why God is responsible for us believing in him. If he simply lets Lucifer drive us away from truth he isn't showing much responsibility for convincing us to believe in him. That way he is unfair to let people be driven away. He can't judge us fairly when he's never shown himself for us, because it is those who deny him that are to be judged to Hell, not those who don't believe in him because he hasn't shown interest in convincing them. It is so easy to make me believe, all God has to do is to appear infront of me, do maybe a couple of miracles (not necessarily), and that's that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    I was just pointing out that the very thing you asked for happened. And now 2000 years later People with their sinful nature being led away from the truth by Lucifer (satan, or whatever you choose to call him) brings us to the world we see today.

    Even if you don't agree that this is what happened isn't it at least plausable?

    If there is a "great misleader" who is not succeptable to death and is widely influential, could he have erased or shaped history to bring the existence of his enemy into question in an attempt to gain some degree of victory over Him by misleading those whom He loves into doubting His very existence?
    Yeah - but a rational, just god would realize that today, 2000 years later, there isn't any good reason for anyone to take the bible any more seriously than any other ancient book of magic stories. So he would either have to be cool with lots of people not believing in him, or he would need to show himself in an unambiguous way again.
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    The term fair is a relative term as we tend to see what is fair as what benefits us most. Within our closed realm of observation what is considered fiar may be different if we have a bigger picture to look at. We don't have the perspective that God has so He is the only one who truly knows what is fair and what is not.

    I could say that if God has all the wealth in the universe he should give me enough so that I could be the richest person in the world. Becuase I work 2 jobs to make ends meet God doesn't exist.

    This is an example of using God to meet my needs as opposed to we are here to serve and worhip Him.

    We have to get past the GIMME attitude and serve Him before he will bless us and reward us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    The term fair is a relative term as we tend to see what is fair as what benefits us most. Within our closed realm of observation what is considered fiar may be different if we have a bigger picture to look at. We don't have the perspective that God has so He is the only one who truly knows what is fair and what is not.
    Who said anything about money? We're talking about whether or not it's reasonable for god to expect people to believe a 2000+ year old book that contains stories of talking animals, talking plants, people surviving for extended periods in the stomach of a whale, and people who can magically conjure things out of thin air - all without providing us with any clear evidence that it's any more accurate than any other book of ancient magic stories.

    If you think that's "fair" in any sense then you must be using a definition of "fair" that's wildly different from the rest of the english-speaking world.
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    The money thing is a parrallel. Just because God has money He is not required to give it to us.

    Just because He has power, Knowledge, Etc Etc Etc.

    According to Christian Thology the proof you seek is coming. And if you live to see it remember this thread. Even in the face of the return of Jesus and the "rapture" of the church many people will still choose not to believe. Instead they will choose other "options" among them will be logic and scienctific thought. Even as the prophecies are fulfilled people will still deny the existence of God. Right up to the Judgement where God will review our lives and ask, "what you have to offer as payment for your sins." Those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus He will claim as His own because He already paid the price and took the punishment for them. The others will be cast into outer darkness into the lake of fire. The lake of fire was not prepared for human souls. It was prepared for satan and his demons (the fallen angels). Those human souls who denied Jesus will share the same fate as Satan and his minions.

    God has and will give chance after chance after chance to believe in the death, burial, and ressurection of His only son. The sacrifice He made as payment for our sin. The bible says hearts will "wax cold" and people will "harden their hearts" and there will come a time that he stops reaching out to those who reject Him. There is no magic number of times you can reject Him and know when you have reached the limit of His grace. God deals with each person fairly and individually acording to HIS lovingkindness. But God will not be a doormat and He chooses not to force us to believe.

    God has done many many many things to let us know He is real, loves us, and desires us to follow him. Just because we won't allow ourselves to beleive doesn't mean he isn't showing us the path. This thread in it self is a way that God is trying to get your attention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by couldbewrong
    According to Christian Thology the proof you seek is coming. And if you live to see it remember this thread....
    According to your own bible, that was all supposed to have happened about 2000 years ago. After describing the 2nd coming, Matthew 24:34 states "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." The whole 2nd coming thing appears to be nothing more than yet another example of why people shouldn't take the bible seriously. It very explicitly said that the 2nd coming was supposed to happen during Jesus's generation, and apparently it didn't. Why do you still expect this to happen, since it's currently about 2000 years late?
    But God will not be a doormat and He chooses not to force us to believe.
    I don't expect god to "force" anyone to believe. I just expect him to give us some reason for a rational person to take his 2000 year old book of magic stories more seriously than any other 2000 year old book of magic stories.
    God has done many many many things to let us know He is real, loves us, and desires us to follow him.
    Really? Like what? If he as done many many many things, why don't you list a few of them for us?
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    ROFL... my post vanished haha. I'll repost it either tonight at home or at work tomorrow. Have a great night folks
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