ok ... lots of stuff to reply to.
First can I please have the reference for this,

Originally Posted by
Obviously
It does say in the bible that when you preform a certain prayer that Jesus will physically appear to you.
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Can you please qualify this as I don't quite understand what you mean.

Originally Posted by
Obviously
"It's God's responibility to make that person believe"
Says who?
The one demanding belief :wink:
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(Please read this all the way through at least one time before you go back and try to refute it please : P)
Free will VS omniscience.
We need to understand that if the christian bible is true then we are in the heat of a war that has raged for over 6000 years. This is a highly strategic war between Lucifer (a onetime angel that was close to God) and God himself. Lucifer also known biblically as "the morning star" is no stupid bumbling fool. Logic is not evil, science is not evil, a 57 chevy is not evil. But all 3 can be used for purposes contrary to the will of God or in direct opposition of Him. We as intellegent beings are being lured away from faith by logic arguements. In our arrogance we say that the God of everything has to conform to "my" standards or I refuse to believe in that selfish, spiteful, pupetmaster of deceit. God is beyond our logic and not bound to it. A prime example is that of Free will in the presence of an omniscient God. The quick answer that will probably leave you wanting more is that God is also omnipotent which means he can do what he wants. Only an omnipotent God can give us a choice even though he already knows which choice we will choose. Yes, that statement defies human logic, but I again suggest to you that God is not bound within the realm of our logic, or knowledge, or justice or anything. The only way we have a chance to understand His ways are to align ourselves with Him.
Christianity is not the end or antithesis of science and logic. Within christianity is acceptance that God is over them and not subject to them.
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Originally Posted by
geezer
I think you playing a strawman hand here.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?.
so please define what god considers as good thanks?
I'm not shifting anyones side. Just simply trying to answer a question. If you feel that I have not done that adequatly please rephrase the question and I'll try again.
The holy bible describes God an many things more that what is mentioned here. The issue is that when people hear "loving god" we think only capable of showing love 24-7 no excuses. The bible also speaks of god as a leader, warrior, judge, caregiver, provider, and many others. Think of an earthy father. My father loved me and never stopped until his death. That didn't stop him from beating me when I had done something wrong. Dad had the authority to let me do whatever I pleased but he knew that wasn't what was best for me. I could have chosen to ignore him and get angry at his punishments and fight against him. His love never would end but his disappointment in me would grow. God calls everyone in the world to his side, everyone has a chance at some point to
to acknowledge god as God and recieve salvation. (this brings us to what about kids that die at childbirth (this is most commonly explained as the age of accountability. Once a person is aware and able to understand salvation they are responsible for their actions before god who is just. However, his mercy and loving forgiveness will be given to those he chooses.
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When asked the question, "Why doesn't God just show up and say, " I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME, LOVE ME"?" There are a couple of views.
One is He did. And we killed him for it. We have to understand the biblical history of the world and the pre earth existence of God. I'll plow through this and if you want bible references i'll add them in later.
Basically. God was in heaven (the dwelling place of God) with the angels. God gave the angels (his servants which he also created) freedoms as saw fit. Within this freedom Lucifer, the angel who was closest to God chose to revolt and with him 1/3 of the angels of heaven waged war against God. God cast the angels that revolted and their leader into "outer darkness" Some time later God decided to make a new creation. He made the world and universe that houses it. On this world he made many animals and plants. His biggest creation was something else. Something made special. The rest of the earth he and all of creation were made by the command of God. Let x Be. Let Y Be and he saw that they were good. When he made mankind (adam) he knelt down by a creek and took some mud and formed him with his own two hands. Then he breathed life into him. All the time Lucifer, who used to be the favored angel, watced with anger and jealousy. God gave man a perfect world to live in. Then he gave him woman (insert obligitory joke here). Satan (formerly known as Lucifer) decieved mankind and because they chose to break the only rule that God gave them, "of the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat", they had sin in their lives and god would not allow them to dwell with Him in paradise. As punishment death now entered the world. (for the wages of sin is death) This began the first of many opportunities for redemption and forgiveness offered by God. This also was the beginning of the law. In the garden people had only one evil choice. It did not occure to Adam and Eve to do any evil act. The Tree of the Knowlede of Good and Evil is what made them accountable for their following trespasses. When they didn't know the difference between good and evil the only thing they could do was good. With the help of a jealous fallen angel we did the only wrong thing in the world. This same principle is why christians believe babies who perish don't go to hell. They are not yet accountable for their sins as they do not know the difference between good and evil yet. As time progressed satan began to put down increasingly numerous traps to decieve mankind and lead them away from God. In these day God still spoke openly with mankind even in the presence of their sinfullness. As generations past and satans influence grew people fell away and some chose not to believe in God. The situation worsened until only one person in the world was deemed worthy of saving and God did just that. (By deemed worthy of saving I mean that others had utterly rejected God and he knew they would not return to Him) So he decided to start over. Noah and his sons and their wives were chosen to replenish the earth and God used them to spare enough land animals to perpetuate each kind of animal. Flood... Years later as new families began to spread out among the regions of the fertil crescent Lucifer again went to work. It only takes one generation for miracles to become myth and people soon were decieved again. Since then satan has used disbelief, logic, and false religions to lead people away from God.
God chose a line of people to call his children. Anyone could be adopted into the family of God but they had to follow His laws. After the Adamic Covenent, God made a covenant with abraham (Abrahamic covenant), then with King David (Davidic covenant), then finally with Jesus in the Jesuic Covenant.
Rewind...
After the flood Satan (formely lucifer) still in charge of his fallen 1/3 of the angels started to mislead and sway the people by any means neccessary. The invention of religioin, false religion, and non religion engulfed the people of the world. From each of these 3 standpoints he has continued to corrupt Gods creation. We all still have a choice to follow God or to fall for any of the hundreds of other options that lead away from Gods plan of redemption. Why doesn't God just appear and do miracles... he did. The red sea parting, the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, Mana from the sky, apprearing to individuals and calling them on many occasions. After all these miracles because mankind is so tied up in sin, pride, arrogance, etc. Satan was able to decieve them yet again. In some cases during the same generation or the next generation of the people who actually experienced the miracle. God continued to show his anger and his love by chastising his people and still giving them opportunity follow Him. As the Jewish nation prospered and fell it did so with the blessing or curse of God. Untill finally the Jews were so hung up on religion, so hung up on the law, so ignorant to what their God really wanted from them he initiated his final plan. The last plea with humanity he utter in attemp to show them how much he loved them. God sent His only son Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life under the law of God and never sinned. His Blood was the sacrifice for all mankind who would believe in Him and the love the Father has them. God did miracle after miracle after miracle and when wasn't enough for us he sent His son to die in our place. What more should we ask of Him. He has alredy done so much more than we deserve.
Bottomline. God doesn't want religion. He wants a relationship. A real friendship like with Adam when they walked aorund in the cool of the day and just talked about stuff. God made a great deal of sacrifices for us. But Satan has even twisted many of the churches of today into ineffective squabbling lazy nonbelievers (the bible describes these people as "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"
I am an astronaut. I have studied space travel and can speak intellegently about it. Just because I say I am an astronout and can speak about does it mean thats true? I'm not an astronout untill I suit up and fly into space.
I am a fisherman. I know all about fishing. I have a fishing pole. I have bait. I have boat. I know all the types of fish you can catch, where to catch them, and how to clean and prepare them. I am greatest fisherman alive.
However, Until I go and catch a fish am I really a fisherman.
Satans deception is so prevelant in todays world that many "christians" will end up in hell besid the "unbeliever".
Matthew Chapter 7:
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
The religion of Christianity is of this world becuase God didn't ask for religions. He asked for a relationship. This is why unnumerable trajedies are carried out in the "name of Christ" and why so many more atrocities are carried out by other religions that have no connection at all (no matter how fleeting or trivial) to the real savier that is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus is an equal part of the trinity along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit (this is why many religions consider christianity to be polytheistic. Becuase they don't understand or are unwilling to accept the existence of the Trinity (not the hot one from the matrix)).
Just some thoughts.