Thread: If God Clicked Start

Sometimes I wonder about the creation of the universe, in regards to the idea that God created it. Being an fence sitter on this whole battle between atheist and theist creation viewpoints, I like to jump between the two "worlds" and see what happens theoretically.

Assume you are a "God" like being, and you have the power to create the universe. How do you do it?

More specifically (to this thread at least) is the question: "Do you create it all at once, or do you build it slowly, piece by piece?"

Let's assume that the creation of the universe is a lot like creating an elaborate computer program. If that's the case, you could build the universe, compile it, then execute it.

Given the scale of the result, and its complexity, it's likely you would program in rules, rather than static values. You create the initial rules by which the properties behave, and then like a big population simulation you stand back and watch what happens.

Let's assume, again, that the universe was built this way, and so now you have this program. We'll call it Universe.exe just for kicks.

What now?

I suppose you grab hold of the command prompt and go "C:\Universe.exe"

POW!!! The program takes off. Fire, flames, Big Bang!

Curious angle, no?

Unfortunately this post is already sorta moot because more and more theories are rising to suggest that the Big Bang event may not have been the beginning. Let's assume for the sake of argument that there was nothing before the Big Bang, and that everything we know, and all it's properties, started at that point (T= 1).

If I were (a) God, I wouldn't see any reason to create a universe at all. Whether you create it a piece at a time, or all at once (including past, present, and future) would it really make a difference? You'd know the end result before you snapped your fingers the first time anyway. So what is the purpose of even creating it?

Neutrino wrote:

So what is the purpose of even creating it?

To show off to a friend, or to compete for 'the lousiest creation' award. :-D

Originally Posted by Neutrino

You'd know the end result before you snapped your fingers the first time anyway.

Only if assume that you will know the end result.

What if you only have the powers to create?

What if you have the power to create, and by that you know what the outcomes CAN be, but you don't know every little detail of what will happen?

Originally Posted by Wolf

I suppose you grab hold of the command prompt and go "C:\Universe.exe"

question : does god need beta testers ?

Originally Posted by Wolf

Originally Posted by Neutrino

You'd know the end result before you snapped your fingers the first time anyway.

Only if assume that you will know the end result.

What if you only have the powers to create?

What if you have the power to create, and by that you know what the outcomes CAN be, but you don't know every little detail of what will happen?

Well then you're not God by most definitions, but it's certainly conceivable. In that case I'd definitely create a universe or five - to alleviate boredom if nothing else.
As an inhabitant of this universe I'm sure I'm biased towards it, but I'd create something like this one. It'd be more of a "snap your fingers, set the initial conditions, then back off" approach. I'd structure the laws to be condusive to the growth of intelligent life. However I probably would have a lot less "space" out there so that it wasn't virtually impossible for beings from other plants to interact with each other beyond sending signals that take many years to reach their targets. Cuts way down on the "interesting" level the way things are now.

Maybe we're in a 14 billion year period of defragmentation. Or perhaps we're sitting in the Recycle bin waiting to be emptied. God has grabbed the mouse and is about to cli....

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Well then you're not God by most definitions, but it's certainly conceivable.

I guess. This is kinda going off-topic, but my viewpoint on the subject of God is that of someone whose on just as much of a ride as we are. It rubs me the wrong way to think that God not only knows every single thing that would happen, but that he'd create the universe when he already knew everything that was going to be created or would happen. I more favor the view of a God who creates, but doesn't micro-manage.

Originally Posted by Neutrino

However I probably would have a lot less "space" out there so that it wasn't virtually impossible for beings from other plants to interact with each other beyond sending signals that take many years to reach their targets. Cuts way down on the "interesting" level the way things are now.

That's assuming we understand it, though, isn't it? I mean, what if we just haven't figured it out yet? Who knows, there could be some...hyperspace thingy...just waiting for us to discover it...then blamo! We're everywhere. It'll be like American and Japanese tourism...only on a massive scale.

Originally Posted by Wolf

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Well then you're not God by most definitions, but it's certainly conceivable.

I guess. This is kinda going off-topic, but my viewpoint on the subject of God is that of someone whose on just as much of a ride as we are. It rubs me the wrong way to think that God not only knows every single thing that would happen, but that he'd create the universe when he already knew everything that was going to be created or would happen. I more favor the view of a God who creates, but doesn't micro-manage.

Yup I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Wolf

Originally Posted by Neutrino

However I probably would have a lot less "space" out there so that it wasn't virtually impossible for beings from other plants to interact with each other beyond sending signals that take many years to reach their targets. Cuts way down on the "interesting" level the way things are now.

That's assuming we understand it, though, isn't it? I mean, what if we just haven't figured it out yet? Who knows, there could be some...hyperspace thingy...just waiting for us to discover it...then blamo! We're everywhere. It'll be like American and Japanese tourism...only on a massive scale.

I agree that's a possibility, but given the apparent speed of light limitation it's hard to imagine getting past that. Anything that appears to circumvent it sounds more like sci-fi than science, but that of course doens't mean it's not possible at some point down the road. Especially when we're talking about not just theory but actually getting real objects past that barrier.

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Yup I agree with you.

Wait...wut? Woh! Holy crap! Someone agreed with me, and it didn't take 17 pages of beatings! It's a record! Whoohoo! :-D

Originally Posted by Neutrino

I agree that's a possibility, ...but actually getting real objects past that barrier.

As a lot of famous physicists have said, the trick is not to break the light speed barrier, but more or less...go around it...


Although I like my analogy about God and creating the universe, as being a computer program...when you think about it, that would be REALLY scary.

What if there's a bug? (Hey, what if the speed of light problem is a bug? *shivers*)

What if universe.exe gets a virus? Or doesn't meet the Divine Corp. ISO 333 standard?

Or, here's a cracker, what if the OS is loopy?

Imagine:

If it was on Windows, God's low-grade Dell hardware would blue-screen it, and all the extra "features" would consume all the RAM.

If it was on Linux, everyone would be able to change the rules, and no one except those with intimate knowledge of what was going on, would have a clue.

Even worse, if it was on an Apple, we'd get stuck with retarded commercials, Nazi-style proprietary formats, and zombies. Not to mention that if God ever needed to upgrade, he'd have to chuck out the universe and go buy a new one.

Originally Posted by Wolf

"Do you create it all at once, or do you build it slowly, piece by piece?"

Personally I think that the universe is like a massive work of art. And assuming that it was created by a god each detail would require alot of attention and care.

This is an awesome topic. If god did do it all, I'd think he'd know the odds of this happening or that, but just like a scientist the only thing you can do is put it to the test. Sort of spooky though, if we were to think of ourselves as just an experiment, probably one that went wrong at that...

Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread! :-D

Originally Posted by Happydude

Sort of spooky though, if we were to think of ourselves as just an experiment, probably one that went wrong at that...

Unless failure is already calculated into the "experiment." In that case, even if we fail as a species, or as a property of this experiment, there's something else to take over in our place.

But that's even worse, now that I think of it. We could be just scum clinging to forgotten sectors, waiting for the master program to have us all de-rezed!

Originally Posted by Wolf

Assume you are a "God" like being, and you have the power to create the universe. How do you do it?

More specifically (to this thread at least) is the question: "Do you create it all at once, or do you build it slowly, piece by piece?"

If you read genesis chapter 1 you can tell that he did it slowly piece by piece... If i were God right now i wouldn't change a bit what God created...

Originally Posted by Wolf

Let's assume that the creation of the universe is a lot like creating an elaborate computer program. If that's the case, you could build the universe, compile it, then execute it.

Uh.... That is not a good idea. I am glad your not God...

Originally Posted by Wolf

Given the scale of the result, and its complexity, it's likely you would program in rules, rather than static values. You create the initial rules by which the properties behave, and then like a big population simulation you stand back and watch what happens.

God doesn't just stand back and watches what happens he takes action.. He is not like a child waiting for someone to fight so he can have some fun.

Originally Posted by Wolf

Let's assume, again, that the universe was built this way, and so now you have this program. We'll call it Universe.exe just for kicks.

What now?

I suppose you grab hold of the command prompt and go "C:\Universe.exe"

POW!!! The program takes off. Fire, flames, Big Bang!

Yes in the Word Of God it says in the end days that fire and flames will fall and he will only take the christians with him... God is not just a kind God he is also a angry God... And what does the Big Bang have to do in the end days? In the Word of God it doesn't say that there is going to be a big bang in the end days where did you get that from???

Originally Posted by Wolf

Curious angle, no?

I don't even know what your talking about...

Originally Posted by Wolf

Unfortunately this post is already sorta moot because more and more theories are rising to suggest that the Big Bang event may not have been the beginning. Let's assume for the sake of argument that there was nothing before the Big Bang, and that everything we know, and all it's properties, started at that point (T= 1).[/i]

Ha if there wasn't a big bang how you could you be alive? I am not agreeing that we were created by the big bang. I believe that God created us.. If it isn't in the beginning then when is the big bang going to come?? In the end times???? Or never???? Like i said what does the Big Bang have to do in the end days?

Originally Posted by marnixR

question : does god need beta testers ?

Know he doesn't. He doesn't even have to test anything...

Originally Posted by Neutrino

If I were (a) God, I wouldn't see any reason to create a universe at all. Whether you create it a piece at a time, or all at once (including past, present, and future) would it really make a difference? You'd know the end result before you snapped your fingers the first time anyway. So what is the purpose of even creating it?

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

Originally Posted by Wolf

Originally Posted by Neutrino

You'd know the end result before you snapped your fingers the first time anyway.

Only if assume that you will know the end result.

What if you only have the powers to create?

What if you have the power to create, and by that you know what the outcomes CAN be, but you don't know every little detail of what will happen?

God knows all the details that is going to happen if a little detail like what i am about to write or what your going to do and every step your going to take.

if the universe is the main program, then
paradise must be on the backup Hard Drive,
where god keeps the humans he likes the most.
the ones he doesnt like, he delete.

ezra, you seem to have pretty in-depth knowledge about god.
which probably means you have direct contact with him.
how do you contact god? and where did you meet? the local bar?
does he talk to you in your sleep?
has he said anything about the future of mankind, and what he plans to do next?
and if he gave you that crap about "Humans could never understand blablabla" did he tell you why he created humans so that we couldn't understand his ways?
did he say anything about us being able to understand him in the future?
is he ever going to reveal why he does what he does?

Originally Posted by dejawolf

if the universe is the main program, then
paradise must be on the backup Hard Drive,
where god keeps the humans he likes the most.
the ones he doesnt like, he delete.

Even the one that he doesn't like he still loves them.... So he just doesn't just delete everybody he doesn't like... That will be a bad God if he did that....

Originally Posted by dejawolf

ezra, you seem to have pretty in-depth knowledge about god.
which probably means you have direct contact with him.
how do you contact god? and where did you meet? the local bar?
does he talk to you in your sleep?

Don't ask silly question.. If you can't even figure that out your dumb as a fly... To answer your question i get my information from the Word Of God or which you might call it bible..

Originally Posted by dejawolf

has he said anything about the future of mankind, and what he plans to do next?

Yes in the Word Of God it says in the end times fire will come and he will destroy the heavens and the earth and even all the galaxy but he is going to bring all the christians with him in the end times...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

and if he gave you that crap about "Humans could never understand blablabla" did he tell you why he created humans so that we couldn't understand his ways?

Shut the hell up... and don't call God crap... because your the crap.. Well humans do understand but you evolution are so dumb you can even understand it.. what he didn't just create humans so we couldn't understand his ways.. he made humans so we can glorify him...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

did he say anything about us being able to understand him in the future?
is he ever going to reveal why he does what he does?

I will answer this question later...

Even the one that he doesn't like he still loves them.... So he just doesn't just delete everybody he doesn't like... That will be a bad God if he did that....

god must be completely schizo. how can he love someone he doesn't like?
sounds like completely illogical bible-crap to me.
so what does he do with the people he dont like? send them to paradise?
no thats not an option, cos thats where good people go.
send them to eternal damnation in hell? umm...
meh, seems like the best and easiest option is to delete the people he doesnt like.

Don't ask silly question.. If you can't even figure that out your dumb as a fly... To answer your question i get my information from the Word Of God or which you might call it bible..

well i checked the bible. nothing of what you said was in there.
so i guessed that you had direct contact with god.

Yes in the Word Of God it says in the end times fire will come and he will destroy the heavens and the earth and even all the galaxy but he is going to bring all the christians with him in the end times...

lets see what your precious bible says about the end-times:

the exact wording is this:
Evil spirits "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (...) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

thats it. thats all.

jesus amass an army from all over the world, to fight satan and his forces, at har-migeddo(a plce frequently used for battles)
he comes flying down on white horses from the sky (heaven)
and wins. then he throws satan into a bottomless pit for a 1000 years.

heres the jewish version of the end-times:
At some point, the Jewish Messiah will become the anointed King of Israel. He will divide the Jews in Israel into their original tribal portions in the land. During this time, Gog, king of Magog, will attack Israel. Magog will fight a great battle, in which many will die on both sides, but God will intervene and save the Jews. This is the battle referred to as Armageddon. God, having vanquished this final enemy once and for all, will accordingly banish all evil from human existence. After the year 2240(or jewish 6000), the seventh millennium will be an era of holiness, tranquility, spiritual life, and worldwide peace, called the Olam Haba ("Future World"), where all people will know God directly.

heres what islam says:
Islam gives very clear guidelines to its followers regarding the end of times. There are various signs (as many as up to 100) given in the Sunnah and Quran for the coming of Judgment Day. These signs can be divided into two parts, minor and major. The major signs include the coming of an Antichrist, Imam Mahdi and then Prophet Jesus (who will combine forces of good against evil), the blowing of Trumpet and the minor signs will precede them.

for a list of endtimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times

Shut the hell up... and don't call God crap... because your the crap.. Well humans do understand but you evolution are so dumb you can even understand it.. what he didn't just create humans so we couldn't understand his ways.. he made humans so we can glorify him...

are christians allowed to say hell, crap, dumb? shouldn't you ask for repention now?

glorify god? WTF is this guy some attention whore or what.
I AM YOUR GOD, I NEED YOU TO GLORIFY ME!
GO MY SLAVES, GLORIFY ME, COS i AM AWESOME, etc.

Originally Posted by Ezra

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

So, if I understand you correctly, this must mean that God is fallible, since his creation failed to carry out its designed task.
This is certainly consistent with the design inadequacies of living things, since if they were created by a less than perfect God we should expect less than perfect perfomance.

So would you explain why it is we should be glorifying shoddy workmanship, or rather the author of that sub-standard effort? It seems somehow sacreligious to applaud mediocrity and worship the third rate. Yet this is what you are suggesting we should do. Perhaps you could comment on this.

Originally Posted by Ezra

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

So God created us to pander to his infinite ego. How praise-worthy.

I think someone's getting off topic.

Perhaps someone who isn't aware of the hypothetical nature of this thread.

:?

We dont have to imagine that anymore, SPORE is coming out.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...result;title;0

Originally Posted by dejawolf

god must be completely schizo. how can he love someone he doesn't like? sounds like completely illogical bible-crap to me. send them to eternal damnation in hell? umm... meh, seems like the best and easiest option is to delete the people he doesnt like.

what no.....

Originally Posted by dejawolf

so what does he do with the people he dont like? send them to paradise?

No he does not send them to paradise... i thought we were talking about when the people are alive not dead... seams like your changing the subject...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

no thats not an option, cos thats where good people go.

They go to heaven thats where the paradise is....

Originally Posted by dejawolf

well i checked the bible. nothing of what you said was in there. so i guessed that you had direct contact with god.

Well you don't look carefully.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

lets see what your precious bible says about the end-times:

the exact wording is this:
Evil spirits "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (...) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

thats it. thats all.

Looks like your making up stuff or you got the wrong bible... you looking at a budah bible? ahhahaha

Originally Posted by dejawolf

for a list of endtimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times

Ha what kind of theories is that... i thought you were a atheist..

Originally Posted by dejawolf

are christians allowed to say hell, crap, dumb? shouldn't you ask for repention now?

glorify god? WTF is this guy some attention whore or what.
I AM YOUR GOD, I NEED YOU TO GLORIFY ME!
GO MY SLAVES, GLORIFY ME, COS i AM AWESOME, etc.

I told you i am not a christian yet...

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Ezra

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

So, if I understand you correctly, this must mean that God is fallible, since his creation failed to carry out its designed task.
This is certainly consistent with the design inadequacies of living things, since if they were created by a less than perfect God we should expect less than perfect perfomance.

So would you explain why it is we should be glorifying shoddy workmanship, or rather the author of that sub-standard effort? It seems somehow sacreligious to applaud mediocrity and worship the third rate. Yet this is what you are suggesting we should do. Perhaps you could comment on this.

I have know idea what your talking about... you talking vocabulary words that i don't even know..

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Ezra

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

So, if I understand you correctly, this must mean that God is fallible, since his creation failed to carry out its designed task.
This is certainly consistent with the design inadequacies of living things, since if they were created by a less than perfect God we should expect less than perfect perfomance.

So would you explain why it is we should be glorifying shoddy workmanship, or rather the author of that sub-standard effort? It seems somehow sacreligious to applaud mediocrity and worship the third rate. Yet this is what you are suggesting we should do. Perhaps you could comment on this.

I have know idea what your talking about... you talking vocabulary words that i don't even know..

if your vocabulary doesnt contain words that are frequently found in the bible, how can you claim to have read it, and understood what it said?

what no.....

then how do you get rid of garbage?

No he does not send them to paradise... i thought we were talking about when the people are alive not dead... seams like your changing the subject...

who cares what happends when you're alive. its when you're dead that god assumedly decides whether you're gonna burn in hell, or live in paradise.

They go to heaven thats where the paradise is....

the bad people go to heaven too? or paradise, or whatever?
isn't paradise and heaven the same thing? unless you believe all that cherubim crap too.

Looks like your making up stuff or you got the wrong bible... you looking at a budah bible? ahhahaha Laughing Laughing

thats what your retarded bible says, you linguistically challenged hypocrit.
why don't you go actually read it? its in revelations, you know, the part where they write about all the stuff thats going to happend.. oh well, 1000 of years ago.

FYI buddhists doesn't have a bible. and its and thats how you spell it.

Ha what kind of theories is that... i thought you were a atheist..

just because i study religion, doesn't mean i'm religious.

I told you i am not a christian yet...

and i'm telling you that you are a fully devout fundamentalist christian.
because you act like one. why dont you run off and play with your imaginary friends, the cherubim and seraphi?

Originally Posted by dejawolf

if your vocabulary doesnt contain words that are frequently found in the bible, how can you claim to have read it, and understood what it said?

I was just playing around....

Originally Posted by dejawolf

then how do you get rid of garbage?

When they die then God judges the people to go to hell or heaven..

Originally Posted by dejawolf

who cares what happends when you're alive. its when you're dead that god assumedly decides whether you're gonna burn in hell, or live in paradise.

Yes that is true.... God does decides whether you're gonna burn in hell or live in heaven...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

the bad people go to heaven too? or paradise, or whatever?

What no the bad people to go to heaven too.. like i said when they die then God judges the people to go to hell or heaven.... So the bad people go to hell

Originally Posted by dejawolf

isn't paradise and heaven the same thing?

heaven is paradise...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

unless you believe all that cherubim crap too.

yes i believe in angles...

Originally Posted by dejawolf

thats what your retarded bible says, you linguistically challenged hypocrit.
why don't you go actually read it? its in revelations, you know, the part where they write about all the stuff thats going to happend.. oh well, 1000 of years ago.

FYI buddhists doesn't have a bible. and its and thats how you spell it.

ahuh..

Originally Posted by dejawolf

just because i study religion, doesn't mean i'm religious.

yeah i know....

Originally Posted by dejawolf

and i'm telling you that you are a fully devout fundamentalist christian.
because you act like one. why dont you run off and play with your imaginary friends, the cherubim and seraphi?

heres an artists interpretation of a cherubim, based on the words of the bible:

first comment on the videos:

first, mr glinch, or whatever that retards name is,
says:

it would require millions of millions of intermediate fossils.
but we dont have that.

then he says:

it would take a lot of time to entomb the fossil. and in that time scavengers etc would eat off the creature, until theres nothing left.

well theres your answer for #1. 99% of the intermediate forms were eaten.
thats why there's so few fossils.
any fossil you find, is an extremely lucky incident. and you rarely if ever find complete skeletons. some prehistoric animals, paleontologist has only been able to find teeth, or claws from, and up through the ages,
paleontologists has tried to put them together.
the most complete

further comments as i watch the rest of this drivel.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

heres an artists interpretation of a cherubim, based on the words of the bible:

What.... Some people just make up the what a angle looks like... And you believe that is a angle... Know one has seen an angle a long time ago...

Originally Posted by Ezra

I think he was talking about you atheist... That there is no fossil finding that evolution does not exist...

learn to crawl before you learn to walk.
you dont have the vocabulary to express yourself properly.
that guys an idiot. he's been discredited by real scientists for 30 years.
he's known as a liar and spindoctor.

heres a webpage which you can check how fundamentalist you are:

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

very handy.
i think nr.9 suits you on a dime.

namely:

You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

are those words too difficult for you? let me put it in a simpler form.

zelos angry, scientist say me monkey brother! no monkey brother!
bible right, say me made from dirt!

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by dejawolf

heres an artists interpretation of a cherubim, based on the words of the bible:

What.... Some people just make up the what a angle looks like... And you believe that is a angle... Know one has seen an angle a long time ago...

you should have spent about 10 more years in school.
maybe you'd have learned some basic spelling.
and you'd be able to read that precious bible of yours too.

that cherubim is drawn as it is described in the bible.
with 4 wings and 4 faces,

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Ezra

God created us to glorify him.. But we didn't we disobeyed God...

So, if I understand you correctly, this must mean that God is fallible, since his creation failed to carry out its designed task.
This is certainly consistent with the design inadequacies of living things, since if they were created by a less than perfect God we should expect less than perfect perfomance.

So would you explain why it is we should be glorifying shoddy workmanship, or rather the author of that sub-standard effort? It seems somehow sacreligious to applaud mediocrity and worship the third rate. Yet this is what you are suggesting we should do. Perhaps you could comment on this.

I have know idea what your talking about... you talking vocabulary words that i don't even know..

God is supposed to be omnipotent - that means 'all powerful'. Now he made us, you say, so we would glorify him. But we didn't do that. We disobeyed him. So how come this all powerful God was unable to make his own creation do what it was meant to do? That seems very difficult to explain.
Now there are those who believe in Intelligent Design, that God either created individual creatures or that he interfered with the evolutionary process. If we look at the 'design' of animals we find some really crap systems. Organs put together in ways that are clearly inefficient. That suggests, if there is an intelligent designer, that he isn't really all that intelligent.
So that matches up nicely with the observation that God wasn't even good enough to make us humans do what he designed us to do.

Given these two pieces of evidence it seems clear that if there is a God he isn't very good at doing the God business. So why should we worship a second or third rate God?

Is that any clearer?

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Given these two pieces of evidence it seems clear that if there is a God he isn't very good at doing the God business. So why should we worship a second or third rate God?

Getting back onto topic...

So, Ophiolite, you're pointing more towards the notion that God does not control every detail in this hypothetical? That he is not a micro-manager?

Perhaps the idea is that we function, even if not perfectly. Or, perhaps we are merely the next evolutionary step in the "plan" towards a "better" breed? Could that notion not also justify the imperfections we see in the system?

If you assume that God merely laid down the rules and set things in motion, and that we're all on an evolutionary journey, that notion fits in pretty well. It also fits in with the idea that God allows some level of imperfection and error, for the sake of the whole system.

(Just as a reminder, this thread is NOT to ascertain the existence of God, to justify the Bible, or even to garner any facts at all. This is a hypothetical thought-line. Religious zealotism or preaching is not welcome. Arguments concerning the definition of God are only appropriate if they pertain to this thread topic.)

cherubim:

Winged creatures who support the Throne of God, or act as guardian spirits. They appear in the Bible (the book of Ezekiel) as bearing the throne and chariot of God, and hence later conceived as a type of angels. They are also mentioned in Genesis 3:24 as guardians (or protectors) of the Garden of Eden. They were placed at the gates of the Garden to prevent humans from re-entering and thus gaining access to the Tree of Life. They also formed the mercy seat on the Ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:18-20).

In Jewish and Christian religion they are second in the order of angels, directly after the seraphim. They were usually depicted as angels with four wings and four faces (human, lion, bull and eagle). Artists in later times made them appear as the chubby, rosy-faced, winged infants of which they are known today. They are usually clothed in blue, while the seraphim are clothed in red. They originated from the winged and human-headed bulls of Babylon (also named cherubim), a lesser order of deities, which guarded the gates of the royal palace.

there you go, you ignorant nitwit. brainfood. eat it.

[quote="Wolf"]

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

So, Ophiolite, you're pointing more towards the notion that God does not control every detail in this hypothetical? That he is not a micro-manager?

I can see that my observations are to some extent consistent with such an idea, but that was not my intent. I was trying to show Ezra the inherent contradiction of his belief in a powerful God and a flawed humanity.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I can see that my observations are to some extent consistent with such an idea, but that was not my intent.

Hmm. Well, it was good either way.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I was trying to show Ezra the inherent contradiction of his belief in a powerful God and a flawed humanity.

Consider the nature of the poster you're trying to reason with.