Religion Rears It's Ugly Head

This is a tough one. It's actually happening right now. Just want to get it off my chest. First a little background......

I have a sister in law who is an atheist, no question. She never pushed atheism on her kids and because of that one of her 3 sons became a devout Christian, goes to church everyday and twice on Sunday. There is also a patriarch in her family, a great grandfather to her 3 kids but someoe who is, if possible , even more religious than her son and is a church elder and so on.

My sister in law's Christian son has 2 sons of his own, both pre-schoolers. Last week both of the kids were diagnosed as having a crippling disease and the prognosis for a long healthy life is not good. To make a long story short, the patriarch has told my sister in law that the kids are inherently crippled because god is punishing her for being an atheist. Not only that, the old man and his congregation has convinced my sis-in-law's son that he should no longer be in contact with his mother. So now my sister-in-law cannot see her son or grandchildren.

She wrote to tell me this. She is understandably, quite upset. My brother, her husband, died a few years ago.

When I hear things like this it just confirms my opinion regarding religion and the power it has over people. Not only that it shows just how stupid it can get. My heart goes out to my sister-in-law and the grandkids she's not allowed to see. I can't see a way out of this one unless the old guy dies. I don't know.

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make a long story short, the patriarch has told my sister in law that the kids are inherently crippled because god is punishing her for being an atheist.

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People like that give Christians a bad name and reputation. I'm sorry to hear about this and my prayers are with your family. A merciful God does not punish the wicked by inflicting the innocent.

I think people who say these evil things and yes I believe these words are evil, can not blame God for what they see as a wrong so they blame the unbeliever in their midst. They justify this with verses about the sins of the father being visited on the sons etc.

Can we truly know the mind of an eternal being though? If God is truly omnipotent and omnipresent then how could we possibly relate? How can we know the motives of a being that operates on an infinite time scale? Consider the butterfly effect over millennia.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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make a long story short, the patriarch has told my sister in law that the kids are inherently crippled because god is punishing her for being an atheist.

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People like that give Christians a bad name and reputation. I'm sorry to hear about this and my prayers are with your family. A merciful God does not punish the wicked by inflicting the innocent.

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Well we've been trying to figure out if our family has a history of some bad genes but no one can think of anyone. It's a sad situation and I hope my nephew comes to his senses but I can't see it happening, the old guy has that much power plus he's loaded. I've heard of this sort of thing happening but never thought I'd be a witness to it

I was just thinking, if this happened in an atheist household would we be doing this?

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plus he's loaded

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That old saying about money being the root of all evil has some basis in reality unfortunately.

isn't there a bit in the bible about not judging people ?

i get the impression that when jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone", this type of person would indeed throw one, being so utterly convinced of their righteousness

rather give a lengthy reply, I posted up a new thread, in response to these religious sick hypocritical f**ks.
called "christians practice hypocrisy to the highest degree."

so the muslim, hindu or sikh god(s) must be punishing my mother in-law for being a devout christian, and some other god must be punishing muslims by killing their kids everday in iraq

funnily enough if the same disease happened to a christians kid, the first thing they'd say is gods testing us, have your cake and eat it springs to mind

Well that just backs up my opinion that to be religious you must have to have a frontal lobotomy :lol:

what a crock of sh*t :x

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

To make a long story short, the patriarch has told my sister in law that the kids are inherently crippled because god is punishing her for being an atheist.

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Um...has anyone pointed out that this doesn't make any sense? I mean, if it was the atheist woman who was having health problems, I could perhaps see the logic of what he is saying. But why would God punish innocent children? And not just innocent children, but the children of the guy who's a devout Christian ???

Even in his most horrific Old Testament bloodthirstiness, I don't think that the Christian God was ever portrayed as being that much of a jackass. I mean sure, God killed a lot of babies and ordered a lot of babies to be killed by his followers, but at least it was always the babies of wicked people. If this patriarch is serious, he's really setting a new low for his God.

the watchword is guilt - they want to make you feel guilty for not sharing in their delusion
logic doesn't enter the picture

Can somebody explain the logic of God making kids suffer for the actions of an adult? Can you do it without saying the Lord works in mysterious ways or that we cannot even begin to know why God does what He does?

You know, any time I think I can paint God into a corner, the believer's answer that God's actions cannot ever be interpreted properly by a mere mortal. If no one can interpret God properly then what value has the bible, church, priests, etc.? It seems that human logic is no match for God or any of His actions. Nevermind that we are on the verge of figuring out the universe, or how He did it, we cannot logic God's actions.

By accepting we should not try to logic God's actions religious folk seem to believe that anything God does is for a good reason. Representatives of God, such as the patriarch in my sis-in-law's case, are then seen as justified in their actions. Its the same illogic and it becomes difficult to blame anyone if their actions seem a bit untoward or callous.

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Can somebody explain the logic of God making kids suffer for the actions of an adult?

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sounds like mafia-style tactics to me

zinanthropos wrote:

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Can somebody explain the logic of God making kids suffer for the actions of an adult?

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He must have targeted on the selfish gene. :wink:
Back to the human level, shouldn't your sister-in-law take the issue to court?

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Can somebody explain the logic of God making kids suffer for the actions of an adult? Can you do it without saying the Lord works in mysterious ways or that we cannot even begin to know why God does what He does?

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If they didn't want to rationalize that the kids are sick because God is issuing a divine punishment for some sin or other, they would have to confront the fact that their God doesn't really seem to give a damn about them. If God doesn't care enough to protect the innocent children of a guy who appears to be an especially devout follower, what's the point of ever praying to him for anything? I mean if he's not going to help you with that, what is he going to help with? If you set out to contrive a situation in which a benevolent, merciful God should use his divine powers to help someone, you probably couldn’t do any better than the one they are facing. I suspect that they realize this on some level, so they’re grasping at straws for an explanation other than “Our God doesn’t care about us and we’re basically on our own.”

Im trying to think of a lower animal that mimics this situation where loss of children and suchlike bring about such dispair that some people pray for some devine intervention. Even after its clear that bad things still go on regardless. Anyone know of a analogue in the animal kingdom?

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Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell

Im trying to think of a lower animal that mimics this situation where loss of children and suchlike bring about such dispair that some people pray for some devine intervention. Even after its clear that bad things still go on regardless. Anyone know of a analogue in the animal kingdom?

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Closest thing would be the revenge killing by elephants. They have been known to come after villages that harm their calfs.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell

Im trying to think of a lower animal that mimics this situation where loss of children and suchlike bring about such dispair that some people pray for some devine intervention. Even after its clear that bad things still go on regardless. Anyone know of a analogue in the animal kingdom?

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Closest thing would be the revenge killing by elephants. They have been known to come after villages that harm their calfs.

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No I was trying to think of an animal that persists on and on with a behaviour, regardless of reward. :) A tangible reward being for your Elephants would be the driving off of future threats to the heards young.

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No I was trying to think of an animal that persists on and on with a behaviour, regardless of reward. A tangible reward being for your Elephants would be the driving off of future threats to the heards young.

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ants? hmm, well no, their actions is for the future survival of the colony.
i guess this boils down to the complete irrationality of religion.

did you know the pope has the words "vicarii filii dei" written on his hat?
it means gods sons placeholder.
he's basically there to serve as the human messiah until the real messiah re-appears.

How do you no religion of futile? Or that prayer is futile? If God is omni present existing in all times and dimensions simultaneously then the implications are more than most think about. If he is directing our lives then he would be doing so in a larger time frame than we can comprehend. Consider the butterfly effect stretched over millennia.

Why did God allow Hitler? Perhaps so the child who would cure cancer could be born. We will never know nor comprehend manipulations on that time scale.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

Why did God allow Hitler? Perhaps so the child who would cure cancer could be born. We will never know nor comprehend manipulations on that time scale.

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Christian logic has never been this good. :roll:

You're right...I'll never know.

God creates cancer and then plans for a WWII so it can be cured someday. Brilliant strategy that only a god could deliver.

hitler was catholic.. thats why he killed jews.

back in the days, it was ok for catholics and protestants to torture jews.

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hitler was catholic.. thats why he killed jews.

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He persecuted catholics along with jews, even if didn't kill them on such a scale. Catholics are usually more right wing than other Christian sects but not that right wing. Hitler probably wasn't particularly religious.

Whai's more diabolical, Hitler planning to kill all the Jews or God planning to have Hitler kill all the Jews? All of a sudden Hitler isn't such a bad guy. Perhaps he'll be rewarded in heaven. Afterall he did God's work. Christ on God's right hand and Hitler on the left, perfect balance. What the hell do we need Satan for again?

C'mon people, if you think the whole thing's a divine plan then you seriously need to rethink. How does one get to that point where God's plan means that He arranges to have people killed? Kind of makes me feel no more important than an annoying itch. Its time like this when atheism doesn't seem that bad, in fact it seems exceptional.

I don't know too much on how anyone's logic justifies the killing of humans by a deity. I can tell you this much, I'm still glad to be a member of the most intelligent species the planet has to offer. There may be billions more races of beings in the universe that may make us look like an amoeba but I cannot perceive a single one of them that would believe there is a God who plans destruction and murder for the good of us all. Until we get past that we aren't going to reach the next level.

This is just God's evil side, or is it His good? Who the hell knows and who the hell cares.

well, hitlers reasoning for killing jews, was because they killed jesus, and refused to say jesus was the messiah, son of god, etc etc.
jews were the niggers of society up until about 1948 when they got their own country.
all through 2000 years they were raped, tortured, exiled, thrown into jew-ghettos, genocided, put as scapegoats, blamed for crimes they didnt do,
had no right for fair trials, etc.

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

God creates cancer and then plans for a WWII so it can be cured someday. Brilliant strategy that only a god could deliver.

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God did not creat cancer. Not according to the Bible anyway. I can't speak to other religions.

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Whai's more diabolical, Hitler planning to kill all the Jews or God planning to have Hitler kill all the Jews? All of a sudden Hitler isn't such a bad guy. Perhaps he'll be rewarded in heaven. Afterall he did God's work. Christ on God's right hand and Hitler on the left, perfect balance. What the hell do we need Satan for again?

C'mon people, if you think the whole thing's a divine plan then you seriously need to rethink. How does one get to that point where God's plan means that He arranges to have people killed? Kind of makes me feel no more important than an annoying itch. Its time like this when atheism doesn't seem that bad, in fact it seems exceptional.

I don't know too much on how anyone's logic justifies the killing of humans by a deity. I can tell you this much, I'm still glad to be a member of the most intelligent species the planet has to offer. There may be billions more races of beings in the universe that may make us look like an amoeba but I cannot perceive a single one of them that would believe there is a God who plans destruction and murder for the good of us all. Until we get past that we aren't going to reach the next level.

This is just God's evil side, or is it His good? Who the hell knows and who the hell cares.

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I think you have really missed the main tenants of Christianity. Conclusions based on false assumptions are not logic.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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I think you have really missed the main tenants of Christianity. Conclusions based on false assumptions are not logic.

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Im glad someone from the church has finally admitted it. :-D

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Originally Posted by scpg02

God did not creat cancer. Not according to the Bible anyway. I can't speak to other religions.

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Did it evolve? Ok, God allowed cancer to happen, knew about it and probably planned it in order for .... let's say.... so you can be His frontman on Science Forums.

Are you going to tell me someone else created it and God allowed it as to punish us for our wickedness? Is there no end to the amount of ways God can inflict suffering on us for our sins. Whatever happened to rehabilitation? Anyway if cancer is there to punish us then why would God want to cure it?

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

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Originally Posted by scpg02

God did not creat cancer. Not according to the Bible anyway. I can't speak to other religions.

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Did it evolve? Ok, God allowed cancer to happen, knew about it and probably planned it in order for .... let's say.... so you can be His frontman on Science Forums.

Are you going to tell me someone else created it and God allowed it as to punish us for our wickedness? Is there no end to the amount of ways God can inflict suffering on us for our sins. Whatever happened to rehabilitation? Anyway if cancer is there to punish us then why would God want to cure it?

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Sigh. How can I explain something to you when you don't seem to know even the basics about the religion we are discussing?

God gave man free will. God did not create cancer nor did he allow it. Cancer was created out of man's sin, his separation from God. It is man who has created and allowed cancer. God can not change man's choices. The best he can do is create new opportunities for new choices. And we can not blame God for our own evil.

Now if you want to say God was wrong for giving us free will, you could do that. But then we wouldn't be made in his image now would we?

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Originally Posted by scpg02

It is man who has created and allowed cancer.

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Well all sighing aside, let's thank God for working on trying to cure it. Why donate to the Cancer Society when God is out there planning a massive kill off so someone can eventually be born that can cure it.

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Now if you want to say God was wrong for giving us free will, you could do that. But then we wouldn't be made in his image now would we?

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What does free will have to do with our image? :?: You're saying that if I said God was wrong to give us free will then we would not be made in His image?

OK...Free will....God was wrong to give it to us. Now what?

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Originally Posted by dejawolf

well, hitlers reasoning for killing jews, was because they killed jesus, and refused to say jesus was the messiah, son of god, etc etc.

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ummm...I think you've got your history all screwed up; that wasn't Hitler's reasoning for killing Jews.

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Whai's more diabolical, Hitler planning to kill all the Jews or God planning to have Hitler kill all the Jews? All of a sudden Hitler isn't such a bad guy. Perhaps he'll be rewarded in heaven. Afterall he did God's work. Christ on God's right hand and Hitler on the left, perfect balance. What the hell do we need Satan for again?

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Were you ever Christian? Do you know about Christianity? God would never have killed Jews, as, according to the Christian doctrine, they were His "chosen people", and still are. Jesus' purpose is to save us non-chosen people (gentiles, I believe the call us). If you're going to make fun of Christianity/God, at least do it with some accuracy.

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Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

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Originally Posted by scpg02

It is man who has created and allowed cancer.

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Well all sighing aside, let's thank God for working on trying to cure it. Why donate to the Cancer Society when God is out there planning a massive kill off so someone can eventually be born that can cure it.

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Now if you want to say God was wrong for giving us free will, you could do that. But then we wouldn't be made in his image now would we?

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What does free will have to do with our image? :?: You're saying that if I said God was wrong to give us free will then we would not be made in His image?

OK...Free will....God was wrong to give it to us. Now what?

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http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...lies/wall2.gif

The key problem was that since the 1870s the Jews had been the object of a fresh wave of demonization in the form of conspiracy theories, shortly after many European countries had granted them full citizenship. On the whole these theories weren't taken too seriously in Germany, but in Austria anti-Jewish conspiracy theories were spread by extreme right-wing politicians and also by the Roman Catholic Church, which knew perfectly well that the theories were rubbish. Such theories were particularly dear to the hearts of those who had problems coming to terms with the modern world. Young Adolf was a server (altar-boy) and took those conspiracy theories desperately seriously, espcially when he heard them repeated in Vienna. It's interesting that, like the Roman Catholic Church, Hitler often referred to 'Jews and freemasons'.

However, it would be a mistake to focus too much on Hitler's views. The worst aspect of the demonization of the Jews since the 1870s was that it made Hitler's audience that bit more willing to believe him. In Germany in the 1920s by far the most important factor was the association in many people's minds between Jews and socialism of various kinds, especially Bolshevism. (This association was strongest in Bavaria). Again and again Hitler demonized the Jews as the 'biological root' of Bolshevism.

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Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Were you ever Christian? Do you know about Christianity? God would never have killed Jews, as, according to the Christian doctrine, they were His "chosen people", and still are. Jesus' purpose is to save us non-chosen people (gentiles, I believe the call us). If you're going to make fun of Christianity/God, at least do it with some accuracy.

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1. I am proud to say that I have never been a Christian or a member of any other religious group.
2. I certainly do. My mother and father were quite religious but they also believed that any decision I had to make regarding their religion or any other would be better made once I became of legal age to vote. Granted I don't see much good in being religious.

You have me all wrong. I didn't suggest that God planned WWII in order for someone to be born that could cure cancer. Let's credit the poster who replied with that notion. A good portion of the people killed in that war were Jewish so by default God's suggested planning involved killing Jews.

I am a sarcastic SOB and sometimes it flies over some heads. Some people get it and some don't. I have been throwing sarcasm as thick as molasses at the original poster with each reply but because certain people are stuck in such a narrow minded groove they actually think I'm serious, so I just keep playing along until moments like now when it is necessary to set the record straight.

What do I gain? I don't know but I think it has to do with the utter amazement I feel when I listen to religious people speak their minds. Because I have no religious inclination I find it fascinating to see how the human mind works with respect to faith and belief especially when it is done by totally ignoring the physical world. It's enthralling to say the least.

Maybe religion wouldn't be so bad if the people involved could just recognize sarcasm. All I did was twist the one poster's logic against him. Do you think God planned WWII in order that some good would come out of it?

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Originally Posted by scpg02

Why did God allow Hitler? Perhaps so the child who would cure cancer could be born. We will never know nor comprehend manipulations on that time scale.

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An omnipotent being could surely come up with a way to get rid of cancer that didn't necessitate WWII and the nastiness that went along with it. If God is omnipotent and doesn't want people to have cancer, why not just use his divine powers to cause the idea for how to cure cancer to pop into some researcher's head? For that matter, why wouldn’t he just snap his divine fingers and cause cancer to disappear forever?

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Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee

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Originally Posted by scpg02

Why did God allow Hitler? Perhaps so the child who would cure cancer could be born. We will never know nor comprehend manipulations on that time scale.

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An omnipotent being could surely come up with a way to get rid of cancer that didn't necessitate WWII and the nastiness that went along with it. If God is omnipotent and doesn't want people to have cancer, why not just use his divine powers to cause the idea for how to cure cancer to pop into some researcher's head? For that matter, why wouldn’t he just snap his divine fingers and cause cancer to disappear forever?

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Because he created man to have free will. Your post shows a lack of understanding of that concept as do others.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

Because he created man to have free will. Your post shows a lack of understanding of that concept as do others.

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How would it violate free will for god to get rid of cancer? Cancer isn't like murder, war, or any of the other problems that people deliberately create for themselves. You might argue that God doesn't stop war because he respects our right to make free choices about what to do - but no one chooses to get cancer, so I don't see how you could argue that it would violate our will. If anything, our "will" is for cancer to go away - as evidenced by the massive amount of time and money being spent on curing it. How does it violate someone's free will to give them what they are seeking with their will?

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How would it violate free will for god to get rid of cancer? Cancer isn't like murder, war, or any of the other problems that people deliberately create for themselves.

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Cancer is the result of man's sin and separation from God. It was man's choice. God can not change that nor should he be held responsible for man's choices. Basic Christianity.

Everybody who has answered my post has focused on one item of it and completely missed the larger point. Instead of cancer and Hilter I could have used any number of things. I chose those too to try and illustrate a point and you guys focused on the items instead of the point.

You will never understand the deapth of what I said. You guys need to read some books on time and time travel. The last three books of the Dune series covered the concept I brought up as well. There was even a really stupid Sci-Fi movie recently playing on cable that dealt with it.

What is the justification for your imaginary friend giving leukemia to innocent children of good and religious parents then?

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Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell

What is the justification for your imaginary friend giving leukemia to innocent children of good and religious parents then?

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For the fourth time now, God does not give disease! I never said he did. I answered one person's question and the point has gone over everybody's head including yours! You guys have a really limited concept of God. Given the supposed brain power on a science forum, that's really sad.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell

What is the justification for your imaginary friend giving leukemia to innocent children of good and religious parents then?

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For the fourth time now, God does not give disease! I never said he did. I answered one person's question and the point has gone over everybody's head including yours! You guys have a really limited concept of God. Given the supposed brain power on a science forum, that's really sad.

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You just said it was the result of mans sin. Who punishes mans sin if it isnt the puppetmaster?

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Originally Posted by scpg02

You guys have a really limited concept of God. Given the supposed brain power on a science forum, that's really sad.

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Speak for yourself.

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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How would it violate free will for god to get rid of cancer? Cancer isn't like murder, war, or any of the other problems that people deliberately create for themselves.

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Cancer is the result of man's sin and separation from God. It was man's choice. God can not change that nor should he be held responsible for man's choices. Basic Christianity.

Everybody who has answered my post has focused on one item of it and completely missed the larger point. Instead of cancer and Hilter I could have used any number of things. I chose those too to try and illustrate a point and you guys focused on the items instead of the point.

You will never understand the deapth of what I said. You guys need to read some books on time and time travel. The last three books of the Dune series covered the concept I brought up as well. There was even a really stupid Sci-Fi movie recently playing on cable that dealt with it.

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does your puny bible state this? or are you making this up.

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Originally Posted by dejawolf

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Originally Posted by scpg02

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How would it violate free will for god to get rid of cancer? Cancer isn't like murder, war, or any of the other problems that people deliberately create for themselves.

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Cancer is the result of man's sin and separation from God. It was man's choice. God can not change that nor should he be held responsible for man's choices. Basic Christianity.

Everybody who has answered my post has focused on one item of it and completely missed the larger point. Instead of cancer and Hilter I could have used any number of things. I chose those too to try and illustrate a point and you guys focused on the items instead of the point.

You will never understand the deapth of what I said. You guys need to read some books on time and time travel. The last three books of the Dune series covered the concept I brought up as well. There was even a really stupid Sci-Fi movie recently playing on cable that dealt with it.

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does your puny bible state this? or are you making this up.

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Don't be an ass.