Thread: Schizophrenia and Religion

Something Bluetriangle said in his now infamous pi thread got me thinking as to whether there is a relationship between religion and schizophrenia. People who profess to talk with god or see visions and those who see things in the scriptures such as patterns and hidden messages, etc.. ...are they showing signs that they may be suffering the effects of this serious mental illness?

Bluetriangle talked of telepathy in one post with Captaincaveman. Right away I thought of the poor guy hearing voices. I have little doubt that this is what's happening. Calling it telepathy was an interesting way of saying, there are voices in my head. Also when you think of people who claim to have religious visions it isn't hard to start thinking about schizophrenia. I think talking in tongues is another possible connection to schizophrenia. Is believing god talks to you a la Moses or George Bush a symptom? Is simple praying to a god delusional if you think someone's listening at the receiving end?

Delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech & eccentric behavior are all classic symptoms of schizophrenia and how many people have become religious as the result of a mental depression?

Like many illnesses there are varying degrees of affliction so its tough to paint all religious persons with the same brush. So is there a little schizo in everybody or are some of us totally immune from it?

Is there a connection? Could religion simply be a result of scizophrenic tendencies? Are the two related somehow? Are atheist more, less or equally susceptible?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Something Bluetriangle said in his now infamous pi thread got me thinking as to whether there is a relationship between religion and schizophrenia. People who profess to talk with god or see visions and those who see things in the scriptures such as patterns and hidden messages, etc.. ...are they showing signs that they may be suffering the effects of this serious mental illness?

Bluetriangle talked of telepathy in one post with Captaincaveman. Right away I thought of the poor guy hearing voices. I have little doubt that this is what's happening. Calling it telepathy was an interesting way of saying, there are voices in my head. Also when you think of people who claim to have religious visions it isn't hard to start thinking about schizophrenia. I think talking in tongues is another possible connection to schizophrenia. Is believing god talks to you a la Moses or George Bush a symptom? Is simple praying to a god delusional if you think someone's listening at the receiving end?

Delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech & eccentric behavior are all classic symptoms of schizophrenia and how many people have become religious as the result of a mental depression?

Like many illnesses there are varying degrees of affliction so its tough to paint all religious persons with the same brush. So is there a little schizo in everybody or are some of us totally immune from it?

Is there a connection? Could religion simply be a result of scizophrenic tendencies? Are the two related somehow? Are atheist more, less or equally susceptible?

This is preposterous.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

This is preposterous.

Maybe . How many people actually went up the mountain with Moses? How many went out into the desert with Christ? Yet they both claimed to have talked with gods and devils. If one thinks about it, the whole religious movement could be based on the ramblings of schizophrenic minds.

I don't mind if you think it preposterous, I'm just throwing it out there for debate. The more controversial the better.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Something Bluetriangle said in his now infamous pi thread got me thinking as to whether there is a relationship between religion and schizophrenia. People who profess to talk with god or see visions and those who see things in the scriptures such as patterns and hidden messages, etc.. ...are they showing signs that they may be suffering the effects of this serious mental illness?

Bluetriangle talked of telepathy in one post with Captaincaveman. Right away I thought of the poor guy hearing voices. I have little doubt that this is what's happening. Calling it telepathy was an interesting way of saying, there are voices in my head. Also when you think of people who claim to have religious visions it isn't hard to start thinking about schizophrenia. I think talking in tongues is another possible connection to schizophrenia. Is believing god talks to you a la Moses or George Bush a symptom? Is simple praying to a god delusional if you think someone's listening at the receiving end?

Delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech & eccentric behavior are all classic symptoms of schizophrenia and how many people have become religious as the result of a mental depression?

Like many illnesses there are varying degrees of affliction so its tough to paint all religious persons with the same brush. So is there a little schizo in everybody or are some of us totally immune from it?

Is there a connection? Could religion simply be a result of scizophrenic tendencies? Are the two related somehow? Are atheist more, less or equally susceptible?

i personally think theres some truth to it, not sure if schizophrenia or just plain old delusions fit the bill(for the majority), the thing that concerned me with that post was the message that appeared "magicaly" on a bookmark that was a message for him, thats either pure fantasy being played out(eg lies) or serious psychological issues

Unless some of the religious members believe that a god put a message that helped him break a bible code on a bookmark?

I dont think all religious people are delusional, but i question the ones who report to have had god speak to them or show himself in some other form, maybe thats not a pc thing to say, but psychological issues are more possible and believeable to me than the alternative


It doesn't matter what anyone says, the possibility of a good percentage of these religious acts being from schizophrenia is very possible and going on percentages in the wider community very likely

While I don't agree with it, saying religious people are delusional makes a lot more sense than saying they're schizophrenic.

Do you people even know anything about the disease schizophrenia? I suggest looking up "symptoms of schizophrenia" on google.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

While I don't agree with it, saying religious people are delusional makes a lot more sense than saying they're schizophrenic.

Do you people even know anything about the disease schizophrenia? I suggest looking up "symptoms of schizophrenia" on google.

mind you i didn't say ALL religious people are delusional , like ive put on a previous post, i do feel embarrased for religious people because of their beliefs, but thats a different story.

I can see what is meant by schizophrenia, as in the auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, but its the degree involved thats the issue

I googled and this is the first site's list. I just pasted it and have not altered it. I didn't look any further. Sorry www.Schizophrenia.com

Symptoms of Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is characterized by profound disruption in cognition and emotion, affecting the most fundamental human attributes: language, thought, perception, affect, and sense of self. The array of symptoms, while wide ranging, frequently includes psychotic manifestations, such as hearing internal voices or experiencing other sensations not connected to an obvious source (hallucinations) and assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events or holding fixed false personal beliefs (delusions).


I was just thinking. In order to hallucinate or hear voices the person has to have previous knowledge of whatever it is that manifests itself. I mean if the afflicted person never heard of God then in all likelihood God would never be sensed as a vision or voice. Also I'm of the opinion that people who sense these manifestations are convinced they are real, an alternate reality of sorts, but real for the afflicted. Therefore I can see them being very convincing when they express their reality verbally or in written word.

Could a lot of the events of the bible actually be from the minds of schizophrenics? All it would take is someone of power & influence, educated and articulate, but nonetheless schizophrenic to make their (real) experiences the template for those that followed.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Schizophrenia is characterized by profound disruption in cognition and emotion, affecting the most fundamental human attributes: language, thought, perception, affect, and sense of self. The array of symptoms, while wide ranging, frequently includes psychotic manifestations, such as hearing internal voices or experiencing other sensations not connected to an obvious source (hallucinations) and assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events or holding fixed false personal beliefs (delusions). [/b]

Note the underlined portions.

Ican understant attempts to equate old religion with forms of insanity, but it is a mistake. Mankind has always had religions and most of the believers have certainly not been insane. Religions serve a vital purpose in providing a common belief system so that we feel connected and belonging to the whole group that believes as we. Religions even adapt to the growth of science as much as they can. When they can no longer do so because they are too old, then they must eventually be replaced. We have to have common beliefs.

What unites the world now is our secular beliefs, but our secular system is not doing a good job of running the world either. That is why we are falling back to the old religions.

That will surely make things even worse!

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

Originally Posted by charles brough

Ican understant attempts to equate old religion with forms of insanity, but it is a mistake. Mankind has always had religions and most of the believers have certainly not been insane. Religions serve a vital purpose in providing a common belief system so that we feel connected and belonging to the whole group that believes as we. Religions even adapt to the growth of science as much as they can. When they can no longer do so because they are too old, then they must eventually be replaced. We have to have common beliefs.

What unites the world now is our secular beliefs, but our secular system is not doing a good job of running the world either. That is why we are falling back to the old religions.

That will surely make things even worse!

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

thats fair enough for religion, but how about the religious experiences thar some people claim to have had, visions, got talking to them, signs etc etc?

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by charles brough

Ican understant attempts to equate old religion with forms of insanity, but it is a mistake. Mankind has always had religions and most of the believers have certainly not been insane. Religions serve a vital purpose in providing a common belief system so that we feel connected and belonging to the whole group that believes as we. Religions even adapt to the growth of science as much as they can. When they can no longer do so because they are too old, then they must eventually be replaced. We have to have common beliefs.

What unites the world now is our secular beliefs, but our secular system is not doing a good job of running the world either. That is why we are falling back to the old religions.

That will surely make things even worse!

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

thats fair enough for religion, but how about the religious experiences thar some people claim to have had, visions, got talking to them, signs etc etc?

Assuming they ARE simply seeing unreal crap, that's people, not religion.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Schizophrenia is characterized by profound disruption in cognition and emotion, affecting the most fundamental human attributes: language, thought, perception, affect, and sense of self. The array of symptoms, while wide ranging, frequently includes psychotic manifestations, such as hearing internal voices or experiencing other sensations not connected to an obvious source (hallucinations) and assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events or holding fixed false personal beliefs (delusions). [/b]

Note the underlined portions.

What about them? Your underlined portions simply say a victim of schizophrenia loses touch with reality. The symptoms you asked for in an earlier post are in the next line and totally describes what to look for. I think you can ascribe them to many claimants of divine contact.

I'm not saying everyone religious is afflicted but if you don't recognize those that are and they in turn come to have power and authority over the faithful then I can see entire nations led by people who are basically mentally ill. Since religion is so widely accepted as clean, who would ever suspect it?

Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, and dare I say Jesus Christ.....normal? As for Christ, if he really did exist then I think you can read between the lines of the bible as to a possible never before thought of truth, that Christ was quite possibly schizophrenic. I think the Romans and the Jews realized they were dealing with a man out of touch with reality.

Sorry if it seems I'm picking on the Christians but I'm sure the same goes for Mohammed and Moses.

It's not schizophrenia, per se, although that certainly can be a factor. Two points that jump to mind are Muhammed and, well, one or another of the major Catholic saints (St. Ignatius Loyola?).

In Muhammad's case, descriptions of the Quranic revelations passed down through history and tradition indeed sound like some sort of psychiatric disorder--disorientation, blackout periods, migraines, &c. I'm still not sure how to reconcile the notion of mental illness with the Quran's apparently amazing literary devices; as Arabic languages are completely and utterly foreign to me, I can't say specifically why the poetic recitations could bring people young and old, rich and poor, established and oppressed, to tears and conversion. Nonetheless, that's some powerful literature.

Catholic saints, Catholic saints ... I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was St. Ignatius Loyola, although I could easily be wrong. (I'll look it up when I have more time.) The story told me in Jesuit high school is that said saint had a life history of swashbuckling, terror, and sin. Having lost a good portion of one leg in combat, he recovered in the care of nuns. For months he lay in misery, slippiing in and out of fever and consciousness in a room decorated only with a garish crucifix and a Bible. It seems entirely possible that his life-changing revelations from God are not, in fact, genuinely divine--e.g. an actual prophetic communication--but rather symptoms of his recovery as the images of his dreams expressed themselves in terms common to his life and reflective of his surroundings. In that, said saint and experiences would be very, very human.

No doubt there are many schizophrenics whose religion is shaped by the symptoms of their disorder, but not all experiences will qualify as schizophrenia. I'm not sure, for instance, what Koresh's disorder was other than an apparent bout of Jerusalem syndrome megalomania that developed while he toured the holy land. This disorder, however, is somewhat common; Israeli police apparently have units specifically dedicated to Jerusalem syndrome issues. (I'm recalling from a television news-magazine report some years ago, something like a 20/20 or 60 Minutes. Hell, it might even have been--gulp!--a cable news "special report". God help us all ....)

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Schizophrenia is characterized by profound disruption in cognition and emotion, affecting the most fundamental human attributes: language, thought, perception, affect, and sense of self. The array of symptoms, while wide ranging, frequently includes psychotic manifestations, such as hearing internal voices or experiencing other sensations not connected to an obvious source (hallucinations) and assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events or holding fixed false personal beliefs (delusions). [/b]

Note the underlined portions.

What about them? Your underlined portions simply say a victim of schizophrenia loses touch with reality. The symptoms you asked for in an earlier post are in the next line and totally describes what to look for. I think you can ascribe them to many claimants of divine contact.

Language problems? I guess you couldn't have a discussion with them, then. Perception problems? I guess they can't drive, then. Problems with a sense of self? ...

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

I'm not saying everyone religious is afflicted but if you don't recognize those that are and they in turn come to have power and authority over the faithful then I can see entire nations led by people who are basically mentally ill. Since religion is so widely accepted as clean, who would ever suspect it?

Just as not all atheists are schizophrenic, but some are.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, and dare I say Jesus Christ.....normal? As for Christ, if he really did exist then I think you can read between the lines of the bible as to a possible never before thought of truth, that Christ was quite possibly schizophrenic. I think the Romans and the Jews realized they were dealing with a man out of touch with reality.

Ok...you want to go with the Bible? I wouldn't say he's schizophrenic if many people witnessed what he witnessed. Is it shared schizophrenia? You see what I see?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Sorry if it seems I'm picking on the Christians but I'm sure the same goes for Mohammed and Moses.

It's okay. People generally choose to pick on Christians. I'm used to it.

[quote="captaincavemanthats fair enough for religion, but how about the religious experiences thar some people claim to have had, visions, got talking to them, signs etc etc?[/quote]

auto-suggestion, mass hypnosis, "schooling," mob psychology, sub-clinical temporal lobe epilepsy, etc. These are human teckniques and characteristics that religions adopt in order to be more fullfilling. Even Nazism thrived on the hypnotice effect of huge masses of marching men and the awe of them doing so in an atmosphere of huge banners and barbaric symbolism. Humans are emotiona/social animals and each religion taps this in their own way.

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

You don't think that John the Baptist was normal do you? How about the Oracles at Delphi or any of the so-called sages, wisemen, prophets, virgin mothers or messiahs? I think every religion at one time or another has had its share of mentally ill icons. I'm fairly convinced that at certain times these visitors to another reality actually helped propel some religions to the top of the charts.

Since our forefathers knew nothing about schizophrenia it would be interesting to see just how they felt about people who had visions, spoke in tongues, heard God's voice, etc. I am now of the opinion that they were held in very high esteem and were revered by the church and populace as a portal to God or the ethereal world.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

How many people actually went up the mountain with Moses? How many went out into the desert with Christ? Yet they both claimed to have talked with gods and devils. If one thinks about it, the whole religious movement could be based on the ramblings of schizophrenic minds.

I don't mind if you think it preposterous, I'm just throwing it out there for debate. The more controversial the better.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albiet a very persistant one." --Einstein

All disorders are are things which are uncommon and seem to the majority to cause discomfort or disability to the one who has it (e.i. if we were all hyperactive there would be no ADD... oh wait, as children we are all hyperactive...:?). We are all sane and insane in someone's eyes. Religion is not delusion nor schizo. There are different ways of approaching questions that people have. The only things differentiating religion, philosophy, science, etc. is the method in which the questions are approached. We are all delusional. We see what we choose to see and believe what we want to believe.

Religion is not the presense of delusions or schitzophrenia. religion is not being able to face up to your own inadequasies and having some almight beings 'plan' to fall back on as an excuse for your own short comings. Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

and the most important point of all...

Religion is stupid

have fun kids!

~Nevyn Pendragon

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Religion is not the presense of delusions or schitzophrenia. religion is not being able to face up to your own inadequasies and having some almight beings 'plan' to fall back on as an excuse for your own short comings. Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

and the most important point of all...

Religion is stupid

have fun kids!

~Nevyn Pendragon

all hail nevyn for putting it so poetically, well said dude

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

all hail nevyn for putting it so poetically, well said dude

cheers, man that was fun to write

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Religion is not the presense of delusions or schitzophrenia. religion is not being able to face up to your own inadequasies and having some almight beings 'plan' to fall back on as an excuse for your own short comings. Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

and the most important point of all...

Religion is stupid

have fun kids!

~Nevyn Pendragon

While this is very insulting, it makes a lot more sense than the old schizophrenia argument.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

While this is very insulting, it makes a lot more sense than the old schizophrenia argument.

I will take that as a compliment (I think).

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

all hail nevyn for putting it so poetically, well said dude

cheers, man that was fun to write

i always think of it as, religion is a crutch for those with a weak mind

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Religion is not the presense of delusions or schitzophrenia. religion is not being able to face up to your own inadequasies and having some almight beings 'plan' to fall back on as an excuse for your own short comings. Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

and the most important point of all...

Religion is stupid

have fun kids!

~Nevyn Pendragon

While this is very insulting, it makes a lot more sense than the old schizophrenia argument.

You know, if SPT didn't take it personally, I don't know if I would have continued firing away. The old shizophrenic argument is what, less than a week old?

Theists get very defensive at times. I guess I wouldn't want my favorite religious characters labelled mentally ill either. However weak Spt thinks my little suggestion is, the fact remains that it is possible, maybe not likely, but it is something else he has to consider. Is jesus a messiah or just some poor guy with mental health issues? Despite what he thinks there is a least a seed planted. I try to offer alternatives.

I liked Spt's reaction, even the other thread he started, the rant against atheists, the woe is me theist, and the little satirical dig at my schizo thread. Protecting his god is admirable. If an atheist isn't insulting to a theist then he hasn't communicated his point.

Great job Nevyn.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Religion is not the presense of delusions or schitzophrenia. religion is not being able to face up to your own inadequasies and having some almight beings 'plan' to fall back on as an excuse for your own short comings. Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

and the most important point of all...

Religion is stupid

have fun kids!

~Nevyn Pendragon

While this is very insulting, it makes a lot more sense than the old schizophrenia argument.

You know, if SPT didn't take it personally, I don't know if I would have continued firing away. The old shizophrenic argument is what, less than a week old?

By 'old' I didn't mean age-old. 'Old' was, in a way, a neutral word, like: what's up old boy (hardly anybody talks like that, but...you get what I'm saying).

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

I liked Spt's reaction, even the other thread he started, the rant against atheists, the woe is me theist, and the little satirical dig at my schizo thread. Protecting his god is admirable. If an atheist isn't insulting to a theist then he hasn't communicated his point.

It is that kind of thinking that makes every atheist I've come across (save a minute few) arrogant, self-righteous, condescending, and, apparently, unsympathetic to the feelings of others.

What these atheists fail to realise, however, is that arrogance only gets people more angry, and make people less likely to agree with them, and thus cling closer to their own beliefs. Simple logic, my friend.

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Religion is an excuse for cowardism, not being able to cope with the fact of your own mortality that there must be something afterwards. Religion is a competition, my god is better than your god, burn in hell if you don't worship my god, People thinking they are right above all others and try to force these upon others.

Actually it isn't. People do use religion to try and justify their actions but it is not the purpose of religion. There is something that the prophets understood that most of the followers did not. You can find glimpses of it in many (if not every) faith. The primary goal being freedom. Anyone who uses religion to justify anything does not understand what religion is about. Whoever came up with religion, be it man or God, was a wise being and thus one must be wise to recieve religion's true benefits.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

i always think of it as, religion is a crutch for those with a weak mind

i wonder what the archbishop of canterbury would make of that statement

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

What these atheists fail to realise, however, is that arrogance only gets people more angry, and make people less likely to agree with them, and thus cling closer to their own beliefs. Simple logic, my friend.

How do you know I'm atheist? How can you be sure? Is it an automatic instinctive assumption or response by believers that anyone who dares question their beliefs is an atheist? How arrogant is that?

Both sides are equally arrogant, ignorant and a few other adjectives thrown in. If a member of the flock questions the religion then why are they seen as wrong nearly 100% of the time. Go ahead the next time your in church, stand up and speak out against some policy or interpretation you think is wrong, See how long your non arrogant friends stay friends.

I like atheists because they have the balls to buck the system. They see the illogic and irrationality of the whole god biz. You couldn't have a truer friend then somebody who can accept anyone from any religion without WWIII breaking out. Atheists don't mind if you believe in god. Sure they'll try and logic with you but I don't see them using their status to make an enemy or ostracize somebody from the planet.

Drifting off topic, what was it? Schizophrenia and religion, oh yeah, so I will say this about my theist friends....

You believe ancient biblical stories are true even if metaphorical, you believe the accounts of a god are accurate, you believe god just is, you believe in an alternate reality such as heaven, you believe in an afterlife as a soul, you believe in divine aparitions such as angels, you believe that god keeps a ledger of your Earthly activities, you believe evil is represented by a demonic figure, you believe a man can be god, you believe an intelligent force performs miracles on a daily basis, you believe you can and do talk to a deity, you believe you are following the one true religion out of countless thousands that exist or have existed, but most of all you believe theists are realists.

zinjanthropos

Something Bluetriangle said in his now infamous pi thread got me thinking as to whether there is a relationship between religion and schizophrenia. People who profess to talk with god or see visions and those who see things in the scriptures such as patterns and hidden messages, etc.. ...are they showing signs that they may be suffering the effects of this serious mental illness?

Well, I'm flattered that I've inspired a new thread! I'm well aware of the putative connections between religion and mental illness. Personally, I've never been diagnosed as mentally ill, other than being told by my doctor I was depressed (something I already knew), after I went to him about migraine headaches. Depression is endemic in modern society though, so I trust you all have the good grace not to jump to any conclusions there. Incidentally, there is no history of mental illness in my family.

As for talking to God, seeing patterns in scripture, and having visions, these are only signs of mental illness if there is no God, there are no patterns in scripture and visions can be shown to be nothing but brain disfunction. However, none of these phenomena have been disproven and all of them have been and still are widely reported by many, many high-functioning individuals.

The real issue here is ontological. It's about what is real and what is not real.

If I am correct, it is you atheists who are delusional, not people like me. I, however, would not be so arrogant as to question your mental health because of your delusions. I do hope, however, that one day you will all grow out of them.

Bluetriangle talked of telepathy in one post with Captaincaveman. Right away I thought of the poor guy hearing voices. I have little doubt that this is what's happening. Calling it telepathy was an interesting way of saying, there are voices in my head

That's not how it was at all. I said the people I interacted with were telepathic. This is because they communicated to me that they knew what I was thinking. Each incident was precisely timed to teach me a spiritual lesson and all the incidents were related to my reading of the books by M. Scott Peck (The Road Less Travelled etc). The people were not imaginary either. Two were being served in a shop in front of me when the incidents happened. A third walked right up to me in a crowded shopping centre.

Delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech & eccentric behavior are all classic symptoms of schizophrenia and how many people have become religious as the result of a mental depression?

That has no bearing on whether there is a God. People who are mentally ill, and many who are not, come to God because they have been broken. For many, this is the only way they ever would come to God.

BT

Philip Kitcher writes in his book "Living with Darwin" that "Troubled people, people whose emotional lives are disturbed, are significantly more likely to report religious experiences, ..."

not exactly schizophrenia, but maybe not a million miles away from it

Originally Posted by marnixR

Philip Kitcher writes in his book "Living with Darwin" that "Troubled people, people whose emotional lives are disturbed, are significantly more likely to report religious experiences, ..."

not exactly schizophrenia, but maybe not a million miles away from it

Bluetriangle

People who are mentally ill, and many who are not, come to God because they have been broken. For many, this is the only way they ever would come to God.

Blue....is this a self diagnosis? Sorry about the telepathy mixup. Is believing somebody else can read your mind any different?

zinjanthropos,

Bluetriangle
Quote:
People who are mentally ill, and many who are not, come to God because they have been broken. For many, this is the only way they ever would come to God.

Blue....is this a self diagnosis?

What I am talking about is a well-understood process by which our life is shattered, which has the effect of opening us to God. For some, it may be some kind of trauma, failure or disgrace; for still others, it may be alcoholism or drug addiction. AA are well aware of this phenomenon. In fact, the first step of the AA 12-step course is admiting that one is powerless over alcohol, which is a breaking of ones pride, the necessary prelude to recovery.

Sorry about the telepathy mixup. Is believing somebody else can read your mind any different?

Not if you are given sufficient evidence! For this and other reasons, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that telepathy is real. So is precognition. I have had so many precognitive dreams (mostly about events that would take place over the next day or two, but some relating to events that took place months or years later) that I am utterly convinced of the reality of the phenomenon. The evidence has been overwhelming.

BT

Not if you are given sufficient evidence! For this and other reasons, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that telepathy is real. So is precognition. I have had so many precognitive dreams (mostly about events that would take place over the next day or two, but some relating to events that took place months or years later) that I am utterly convinced of the reality of the phenomenon. The evidence has been overwhelming.

real based on what research?? anything credible?

captaincaveman,

real based on what research?? anything credible?

Only to me. I have precognitive dreams on a regular basis. I can't prove that to you, though. Interestingly, I can rarely use the information to actually predict anything. Mostly, the dreams are disguised in some way so that I am unaware of the upcoming event until it actually happens. Perhaps the realisation of the dream depends on me not being able to use the information in any way, which might alter the future. Disturbingly, some of the dreams are realised months or years in advance, which has profound philosophical implications; our futures are somehow known or perhaps 'planned' way in advance.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

captaincaveman,

real based on what research?? anything credible?

Only to me. I have precognitive dreams on a regular basis. I can't prove that to you, though. Interestingly, I can rarely use the information to actually predict anything. Mostly, the dreams are disguised in some way so that I am unaware of the upcoming event until it actually happens. Perhaps the realisation of the dream depends on me not being able to use the information in any way, which might alter the future. Disturbingly, some of the dreams are realised months or years in advance, which has profound philosophical implications; our futures are somehow known or perhaps 'planned' way in advance.

BT

hmmm, unprovable and disguised in some way


funnily enough most people have dreams like that, i had a dream that my grandmother died when i was a child, and guess what 25years later it happened

I had one like that CC, It was on saturday night and i dreamt I was cooking sunday lunch (don't ask why) funnily enough the next day i was cooking sunday lunch. Amazing isn't it...

captaincaveman and Nevyn,

hmmm, unprovable and disguised in some way

funnily enough most people have dreams like that, i had a dream that my grandmother died when i was a child, and guess what 25years later it happened

I had one like that CC, It was on saturday night and i dreamt I was cooking sunday lunch (don't ask why) funnily enough the next day i was cooking sunday lunch. Amazing isn't it...

I confidently predict neither of you will ever be comedians.

But back to the serious stuff. When I say I have precognitive dreams I don't mean anything vague or general, I mean either that specific incidents are viewed by me, which later happen exactly as viewed, or that I am given a symbolic dream which predicts a future event.

For example I once had a dream where I found myself catapulted down a very old, narrow winding street, lined with ancient houses and giving a feeling of belonging to a bygone age. Several months later I was driving down to England when I decided to stop in a town in the Scottish borders for a break. It was the first time I had ever visited that town. After driving around I eventually found a car park then decided to take a walk into the town centre. The path from the car park to the town centre led onto a queer, winding little street, lined with old buildings. As I walked down it I suddenly realised that this was the street I had dreamed about months earlier. The sense of recognition was very strong.

Now there are several car parks in that town, any of which I could have taken. I could also have stopped somewhere else, or even gone a different route. Moreover, when I had the dream I hadn't even planned the trip to England. So this sequence of events must, at some level, have already happened when I dreamed of it. There must, therefore, be some kind of prior planning going on in our lives. This is why words like 'fate' and 'destiny' exist. At some level we have always understood that life is not a meaningless drifting from event to event, but a meaningful journey towards a destination (that word being related to 'destiny').

BT

Memory is one of the most unreliable records there is. Eye witness tesimonies are reguarded as unreliable in court. Memory can be influenced by the smallest thing such as opinion. You could just have seen a very small detail which reminded you of the dream so you think 'hey, this is pretty similar' then your mind begins to sculpt it to a pretty damn good replica

Nevyn,

Memory is one of the most unreliable records there is. Eye witness tesimonies are reguarded as unreliable in court. Memory can be influenced by the smallest thing such as opinion. You could just have seen a very small detail which reminded you of the dream so you think 'hey, this is pretty similar' then your mind begins to sculpt it to a pretty damn good replica

I noted it in my diary at the time. I have recorded many similar dreams over the past nine years. The reason I recalled the dream in detail was because it was so vivid and also very short. The span of several months is admittedly quite long, but I have recorded many precognitive dreams which related to events a day or two in advance and which I quickly recorded. Our memories aren't infallable, but they are very accurate most of the time, especially when one is motivated to accurately recall such phenomena, as I am.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Nevyn,

Memory is one of the most unreliable records there is. Eye witness tesimonies are reguarded as unreliable in court. Memory can be influenced by the smallest thing such as opinion. You could just have seen a very small detail which reminded you of the dream so you think 'hey, this is pretty similar' then your mind begins to sculpt it to a pretty damn good replica

I noted it in my diary at the time. I have recorded many similar dreams over the past nine years. The reason I recalled the dream in detail was because it was so vivid and also very short. The span of several months is admittedly quite long, but I have recorded many precognitive dreams which related to events a day or two in advance and which I quickly recorded. Our memories aren't infallable, but they are very accurate most of the time, especially when one is motivated to accurately recall such phenomena, as I am.

BT

lets clarify this your saying every detail in regard to your dreams come true.
would you consider being tested under laboratory condition's, I will give you a million dollars, (and yes I have it), and so will mr randi http://www.randi.org/research/index.html so thats two million dollars, are you willing to be tested.

edited: reason-bad spelling

geezer,

lets clarify this your saying every detail in regard to your dreams come true.
would you consider being tested under laboratory condition's, I will give you a million dollars, (and yes I have it), and so will mr randi http://www.randi.org/research/index.html so thats two million dollars, are you willing to be tested.

What I'm saying is that I frequently have dreams and hypnogogic visions that contain information taken from the future. These appear to have several functions, amongst which are the following:

1. Warnings of future life changes (for instance, I dreamed about a new job three years before it happened).

2. Personal health warnings (I once dreamed about the appearance of a large, painful boil on my arm, two days before it appeared).

3. Health warnings about loved ones (I dreamed of an aunt's death months before it happened).

4. Warnings of future disasters (I had 9/11 dreams and a hypnogogic warning a few hours before the event).

5. Normal dream messages that happen to contain information from the near future. This needs a little explanation. Our dreams often contain messages for us (according to Jung, they also play a counterbalancing role against the workings of the conscious mind). These dream messages usually contain information taken from the recent past, possibly because it is easier to construct the dream sequence from recent memories, rather than distant ones. However, our dreams also take information from the near future in the very same way. Therefore these 'future memories' must be accessable to our unconscious mind in the same way as the recent past.

Most of my dreams are not precognitive, so I cannot guaranteee that I would have one if tested under laboratory conditions. I suspect that everyone either does or can access future information (animals are well known for predicting storms, etc). Why don't you record your own dreams over a few nights? You might be surprised at the information about your recent past - and possibly your near future - that is contained in them.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Most of my dreams are not precognitive, so I cannot guaranteee that I would have one if tested under laboratory conditions. I suspect that everyone either does or can access future information (animals are well known for predicting storms, etc). Why don't you record your own dreams over a few nights? You might be surprised at the information about your recent past - and possibly your near future - that is contained in them.

BT

Animals are not precognitive, they can sense small changes in the environment, in your example of a storm they would pick up on humidity, heat and smell. I dreamt about the tsunami on the night it happened, doesn't mean I am psycic, just means I felt the shockwaves and my translated it into a dream

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Why don't you record your own dreams over a few nights? You might be surprised at the information about your recent past - and possibly your near future - that is contained in them.

I did. For more than a few nights. Considerably more. I did this at a time when I believed in the supernatural, and ESP, and precongition, etc.

I found zero correlation. Perhaps you need to learn to be more self critical.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

What I'm saying is that I frequently have dreams and hypnogogic visions that contain information taken from the future. These appear to have several functions, amongst which are the following:

1. Warnings of future life changes (for instance, I dreamed about a new job three years before it happened).

2. Personal health warnings (I once dreamed about the appearance of a large, painful boil on my arm, two days before it appeared).

3. Health warnings about loved ones (I dreamed of an aunt's death months before it happened).

4. Warnings of future disasters (I had 9/11 dreams and a hypnogogic warning a few hours before the event).

5. Normal dream messages that happen to contain information from the near future. This needs a little explanation. Our dreams often contain messages for us (according to Jung, they also play a counterbalancing role against the workings of the conscious mind). These dream messages usually contain information taken from the recent past, possibly because it is easier to construct the dream sequence from recent memories, rather than distant ones. However, our dreams also take information from the near future in the very same way. Therefore these 'future memories' must be accessable to our unconscious mind in the same way as the recent past.

Most of my dreams are not precognitive, so I cannot guaranteee that I would have one if tested under laboratory conditions. I suspect that everyone either does or can access future information (animals are well known for predicting storms, etc). Why don't you record your own dreams over a few nights? You might be surprised at the information about your recent past - and possibly your near future - that is contained in them.

BT

I wanted to be patronizing as I feel your patronizing me, all the above post of yours was totally irrelevant, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is. and take the tests. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html or are you just talking out of your arse.

telepathy, hidden codes from god in book marks and precognitive dreams, seriously dude, you need to speak to someone from your local mental health department, you seem to have worrying issues


And i mean that seriously

Nevyn,

Animals are not precognitive, they can sense small changes in the environment, in your example of a storm they would pick up on humidity, heat and smell. I dreamt about the tsunami on the night it happened, doesn't mean I am psycic, just means I felt the shockwaves and my translated it into a dream

There are many recorded cases of animals sensing approaching disaster long before they could have picked up any physical signals. Try Rupert Sheldrake's, Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals.

As for your own dream, the explanation of precognition is just as likely as the hypothesis that your unconscious mind picked up the information from shockwaves. Where would it have learned that skill anyway? Tsunamis are very rare!

BT

Ophiolite,

bluetriangle wrote:
Why don't you record your own dreams over a few nights? You might be surprised at the information about your recent past - and possibly your near future - that is contained in them.

I did. For more than a few nights. Considerably more. I did this at a time when I believed in the supernatural, and ESP, and precongition, etc. I found zero correlation. Perhaps you need to learn to be more self critical.

I don't know why some people have them and others apparently don't. Having said that, dream interpretation is a difficult art. It may be that the signs were there but you simply couldn't read them. Perhaps you need to learn how to interpret them better.

It may also be related to your own spiritual unfolding. Many people who are into ESP, fairies, astrology, etc, are spiritual children. I'm not saying you were or are, just stating the possibilities.

BT

Geezer,

I wanted to be patronizing as I feel your patronizing me, all the above post of yours was totally irrelevant, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is. and take the tests. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html or are you just talking out of your arse

I'm not sure why you think I might be patronising you, when what I'm trying to do is inform people on this forum about extraordinary information and phenomena of which I have personal experience and which have immense bearing on our understanding of the nature of reality.

As for the tests, from what I understand of the application form and from my own opinion of James Randi, I think he would set the bar unreasonably high for what he would consider 'acceptable evidence'. He also fails to understand that psychic phenomena such as precognition are usually not under the control of the person concerned - nor should they be.

The transpersonal psychologist Stanislav Grof once tried to remote view his parent's flat in Eastern Europe whilst in the USA, after taking LSD. To his surprise he was successful. Moreover, he appeared to be actually there in a body (bilocation). To prove he had actually been there he decided to take a picture off the wall, then later phone his parents for confirmation that the picture had actually been removed. As he lifted his hand up to the picture he had nightmarish visions of roulette wheels, sinister conspiracies and demonic powers, realised he was risking his very soul with this action and decided not to do it. Why? Because he realised he was not mature enough to know whether it was possible or not. He was still too egotistical to resist using the knowledge for his personal gain.

Perhaps the world at large isn't ready to know whether it is possible to predict the future. This is a process of gradual unfoldment. The truth will emerge when the time is right, or, more accurately, when people are ready for it.

So, no, I am not interested in taking part in Randi's test.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Nevyn,

As for your own dream, the explanation of precognition is just as likely as the hypothesis that your unconscious mind picked up the information from shockwaves. Where would it have learned that skill anyway? Tsunamis are very rare!

BT

nature, despite humanities ability to override their instincts they are still there. During sleep the unconcious mind where the instincts lie is dominant.

captaincaveman,

telepathy, hidden codes from god in book marks and precognitive dreams, seriously dude, you need to speak to someone from your local mental health department, you seem to have worrying issues

But from where I stand it is you who is deluded! You are accepting a very narrow range of possibilities (those currently understood by science) and ignoring all others, even though these phenomena have been reported by innumerable individuals across all cultures since time imemorial. But then modern society, whose culture is materialism, treats other, older cultures with the same arrogant dismissal that our young people treat their elders.

You'd have me, and those like me, locked up, just so you can protect your own blinkered worldview! But it would all be done in the name of compassion, of course. Like those who burned witches. Humane bunch.

BT

Nevyn,

bluetriangle wrote:
As for your own dream, the explanation of precognition is just as likely as the hypothesis that your unconscious mind picked up the information from shockwaves. Where would it have learned that skill anyway? Tsunamis are very rare!

nature, despite humanities ability to override their instincts they are still there. During sleep the unconcious mind where the instincts lie is dominant.

So you are saying we have an instinct for detecting tsunamis? What would the mechanism be? Is it hard-wired into the brain?

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

captaincaveman,

telepathy, hidden codes from god in book marks and precognitive dreams, seriously dude, you need to speak to someone from your local mental health department, you seem to have worrying issues

But from where I stand it is you who is deluded! You are accepting a very narrow range of possibilities (those currently understood by science) and ignoring all others, even though these phenomena have been reported by innumerable individuals across all cultures since time imemorial. But then modern society, whose culture is materialism, treats other, older cultures with the same arrogant dismissal that our young people treat their elders.

You'd have me, and those like me, locked up, just so you can protect your own blinkered worldview! But it would all be done in the name of compassion, of course. Like those who burned witches. Humane bunch.

BT

I didn't sayt you needed locking up, you just need to talk to someone, im actually very simpatheric to mental and psychological illness's

I haven't also got a closed mind, but the most likely conclusion to someone who claims to be contacted directly from god, with a written message, then having precog dreams and to top that, the telepathy seems highly improbable and without evidence to back it up even more so

so im deluded for not excepting the posts of a total stranger off the internet who claims to have magical powers and codes from god, Hmmmm so wheres the proof, or do you accept the followers of the flying spaghetti monster on their claims without proof??

I take it this written message you were "left" in the bible went somewhere important did it?, i mean its not everyday there is written proof of god . i see a number of explanations to this

1) you trolling
2) your deluded
3) your lying to back up your argument

Or do you expect people to just take it this fantasy as a reality?

If it comes down to the possibility of someone having all these powers thrust opon them without proof, or delusion, i'd say the majority of the world would favour the delusional side, religious people included. thats just common sense, but you keep dreaming

hey wait a minute your not david icke are you??

captaincaveman,

I didn't sayt you needed locking up, you just need to talk to someone, im actually very simpatheric to mental and psychological illness's

Fair enough. I know you're serious about me going to see a psychiatrist, but I also know what would be the likely outcome if I went there. It would involve drugs, tests, therapies and well-meant advice about how to get a handle on reality, at best.

I haven't also got a closed mind, but the most likely conclusion to someone who claims to be contacted directly from god, with a written message, then having precog dreams and to top that, the telepathy seems highly improbable and without evidence to back it up even more so

When explorers came back from africa with tales of 'camelopards' and other unlikely creatures, they were also dismissed. But they were right.

so im deluded for not excepting the posts of a total stranger off the internet who claims to have magical powers and codes from god, Hmmmm so wheres the proof, or do you accept the followers of the flying spaghetti monster on their claims without proof??

A stranger is just a friend you haven't met (but then, a friend is just a stranger you think you know).

I take it this written message you were "left" in the bible went somewhere important did it?, i mean its not everyday there is written proof of god

The message is in my bedside cabinet. You couldn't tell looking at it that it wasn't something I'd typed myself. In fact, the only person who knows whether it is genuine or not is my Alpha Course director. But I have every reason to trust her. Anyway, the message is encoded with numbers, via English gematria. The message is I Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NIV Bible). Here are two of the encoded numbers. The first verse has an ordinal value of 1559 and the second verse an ordinal value of 468. These are the standard values of the following phrases:

Our Lord Jesus Christ (s) = 1559
The Lord God (s) = 468

Note: the ordinal value system assigns numerical values to letters according to the position in the alphabet (A = 1 to Z = 26). The standard value is the English equivalent of Hebrew gematria (A = 1 to Z = 800).

These two systems are the basis of a code contained within the NIV Bible, which works on the same basis as the bookmark (which is why I say it was the key to the code). The numbers are encoded as ordinal values but take on meaning as standard values. Here is an example

Ist 12 words of Genesis 1 (NIV)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the (o) = 515

Jesus (s) = 515

Within the first 24 words are encoded six numbers that are what I call signatures of Christ. For more see http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/signature.html

1) you trolling
2) your deluded
3) your lying to back up your argument

I'm telling the truth as best I know it. Of course, I could be deluded, but how do you then explain the bookmark?

If it comes down to the possibility of someone having all these powers thrust opon them without proof, or delusion, i'd say the majority of the world would favour the delusional side, religious people included. thats just common sense, but you keep dreaming

The majority of people would then be wrong. But I'll forgive them for it.

hey wait a minute your not david icke are you??

No. I wish I had his courage, though.

BT

Fair enough. I know you're serious about me going to see a psychiatrist, but I also know what would be the likely outcome if I went there. It would involve drugs, tests, therapies and well-meant advice about how to get a handle on reality, at best.

And seriously whats wrong with that?

When explorers came back from africa with tales of 'camelopards' and other unlikely creatures, they were also dismissed. But they were right.

Yes but this was something that could be resolved with actual physical evidence and its re-peatable to any man on the planet(funds allowing)

A stranger is just a friend you haven't met (but then, a friend is just a stranger you think you know).

Very true, but doesn't make the person credible or believable, just possibly personable

I'm telling the truth as best I know it. Of course, I could be deluded, but how do you then explain the bookmark?

My gut instinct would be your Alpha Course director or fellow student, either decepting or tricking you and playing on your nievity

The majority of people would then be wrong. But I'll forgive them for it

Or the majority are right and the minority who are mis-guided and/or deluded

No. I wish I had his courage, though.

hmmmmmmmm

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Nevyn,

bluetriangle wrote:
As for your own dream, the explanation of precognition is just as likely as the hypothesis that your unconscious mind picked up the information from shockwaves. Where would it have learned that skill anyway? Tsunamis are very rare!

nature, despite humanities ability to override their instincts they are still there. During sleep the unconcious mind where the instincts lie is dominant.

So you are saying we have an instinct for detecting tsunamis? What would the mechanism be? Is it hard-wired into the brain?

BT

I was reading about a particular beetle (capricorn beetle: Cerambyx) that live in an Oak tree, when the lava is about to turn into a pupa it creats a chamber and a tunnel to the outside (with a small barrier to stop preditors) It then becomes a pupa with it's head pointing to this 'door' it does this because the fully grown beetle cannot turn around. It does this even though it has never seen another capricorn beetle in it's entire existance. Instincts.
Instinct and survival are preprogrammed into the reptilian/primordial part of the brain (part of the subconcious). We have adapted to suit our environment, we feel earthwuakes we move to saver ground. Or we should do but for the ability to distance ourselves from our instincts

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Geezer,

I wanted to be patronizing as I feel your patronizing me, all the above post of yours was totally irrelevant, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is. and take the tests. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html or are you just talking out of your arse

I'm not sure why you think I might be patronising you,

because you replied by telling me about your dreams and not, I will take the test which is now clear you wont, but i knew that anyway,

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

when what I'm trying to do is inform people on this forum about extraordinary information and phenomena of which I have personal experience and which have immense bearing on our understanding of the nature of reality.

wrong, your not informing anybody it just goes' in one ear and out the other because extraordinary claims, need extraordinary evidence, wheres yours.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

As for the tests, from what I understand of the application form and from my own opinion of James Randi, I think he would set the bar unreasonably high for what he would consider 'acceptable evidence'. He also fails to understand that psychic phenomena such as precognition are usually not under the control of the person concerned - nor should they be.

what utter rubbish, how low should the bar be, "we accept you can dream the future" get serious. randi has been studying the supernatural/psychic phenomena for years. I think he and his staff are well versed in said fields, hence why I'm willing to place my own money in the mix.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

The transpersonal psychologist Stanislav Grof once tried to remote view his parent's flat in Eastern Europe whilst in the USA, after taking LSD. To his surprise he was successful. Moreover, he appeared to be actually there in a body (bilocation). To prove he had actually been there he decided to take a picture off the wall, then later phone his parents for confirmation that the picture had actually been removed. As he lifted his hand up to the picture he had nightmarish visions of roulette wheels, sinister conspiracies and demonic powers, realised he was risking his very soul with this action and decided not to do it. Why? Because he realised he was not mature enough to know whether it was possible or not. He was still too egotistical to resist using the knowledge for his personal gain.

and of course thats the true reason he never took the picture, it wasn't because he was totally BSing and could not remote view, give me a break.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Perhaps the world at large isn't ready to know whether it is possible to predict the future.

becaue it isn't.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

This is a process of gradual unfoldment. The truth will emerge when the time is right, or, more accurately, when people are ready for it.

yes of course, lol.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

So, no, I am not interested in taking part in Randi's test.

I new that, that was blatantly obvious, you knew you would fail if you took the test,as did we all, it must be really gutting to be so predictable, wow, I can see into the future, lol.

captaincaveman,

Quote:
Fair enough. I know you're serious about me going to see a psychiatrist, but I also know what would be the likely outcome if I went there. It would involve drugs, tests, therapies and well-meant advice about how to get a handle on reality, at best.

And seriously whats wrong with that?

A lot. Robert Pirsig, author of the seminal 'Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance', had a mystical experience, after which he was carted away to a mental institution and had his brain fried with numerous doses of ECT (now illegal). It took him several years afterwards to figure out who he was and why he was there. He was there because well-meaning but misguided people didn't understand what had happened to him. Its the ultimate irony: he had discovered the true nature of reality (which he calls Dynamic Quality, but which I would call God) and the first thing people did was to try to bring him back into the world of illusions, or kill him trying.

He had to pretend he was sane to get out. Interestingly, he said that the insane say that 'sane' people are all actors. Having given up the act themselves they can spot a phoney a mile off.

Incidentally Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality (found in his second book 'Lila', which I urgently recommend to any materialist) has been called 'The high point of western philosophy'. Not bad for a nutter.

Quote:
When explorers came back from africa with tales of 'camelopards' and other unlikely creatures, they were also dismissed. But they were right.

Yes but this was something that could be resolved with actual physical evidence and its re-peatable to any man on the planet(funds allowing)

Not at the time. Eventually, sufficient evidence of the reality of a transcendental realm and our own true nature will be found to convince everyone. In fact there already is sufficient evidence. But people will not accept it yet. Carl Sagan's dictum Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, contains a certain amount of truth, but is also a get-out clause for those for whom no amount of evidence is sufficient. They simply keep saying. 'there isn't enough evidence yet.'

Quote:
I'm telling the truth as best I know it. Of course, I could be deluded, but how do you then explain the bookmark?

My gut instinct would be your Alpha Course director or fellow student, either decepting or tricking you and playing on your nievity

Why would she be party to such a horrible deception? Remember, she is a devout Christian and highly ethical person, who is well aware of the consequences of such a sin.

Quote:
No. I wish I had his courage, though.

hmmmmmmmm

He is a very courageous man. I don't happen to agree will much of what he says, but his courage is beyond doubt - and he does understand that the spiritual realms are real.

BT

Nevyn,

I was reading about a particular beetle (capricorn beetle: Cerambyx) that live in an Oak tree, when the lava is about to turn into a pupa it creats a chamber and a tunnel to the outside (with a small barrier to stop preditors) It then becomes a pupa with it's head pointing to this 'door' it does this because the fully grown beetle cannot turn around. It does this even though it has never seen another capricorn beetle in it's entire existance. Instincts.
Instinct and survival are preprogrammed into the reptilian/primordial part of the brain (part of the subconcious). We have adapted to suit our environment, we feel earthwuakes we move to saver ground. Or we should do but for the ability to distance ourselves from our instincts

That's interesting about the instinctive behaviour of the beetle. But hold on a minute. You didn't display instinctive behaviour; you had a dream about a tsunami. Where could your unconscious mind have gotten such detailed information? Are you saying we are hard-wired to dream about tsunamis when we feel certain rumblings? Either the information on tsunamis is stored genetically (because it has to be transmitted from generation to generation) or something much more mysterious is going on. Which is it?

BT

A lot. Robert Pirsig, author of the seminal 'Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance', had a mystical experience, after which he was carted away to a mental institution and had his brain fried with numerous doses of ECT (now illegal). It took him several years afterwards to figure out who he was and why he was there. He was there because well-meaning but misguided people didn't understand what had happened to him. Its the ultimate irony: he had discovered the true nature of reality (which he calls Dynamic Quality, but which I would call God) and the first thing people did was to try to bring him back into the world of illusions, or kill him trying.

He had to pretend he was sane to get out. Interestingly, he said that the insane say that 'sane' people are all actors. Having given up the act themselves they can spot a phoney a mile off.

Incidentally Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality (found in his second book 'Lila', which I urgently recommend to any materialist) has been called 'The high point of western philosophy'. Not bad for a nutter.

That treatment doesn't happen in the uk now, i dont think your insane, seriously deluded yes, but not insane, you can argue ti point of me not having an open mind or not seeing the "truth", but the facts still remain, you have no proof

Not at the time. Eventually, sufficient evidence of the reality of a transcendental realm and our own true nature will be found to convince everyone. In fact there already is sufficient evidence. But people will not accept it yet. Carl Sagan's dictum Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, contains a certain amount of truth, but is also a get-out clause for those for whom no amount of evidence is sufficient. They simply keep saying. 'there isn't enough evidence yet.'

can you post links to this "sufficient evidence"????

yes we all know his quote, based on Marcello Truzzi, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" so wheres your proof?? theres isn't any

Why would she be party to such a horrible deception? Remember, she is a devout Christian and highly ethical person, who is well aware of the consequences of such a sin

i wouldn't know her or anyone elses reasons for this, but to compound someones faith could be an excellent reason

He is a very courageous man. I don't happen to agree will much of what he says, but his courage is beyond doubt - and he does understand that the spiritual realms are real

But can you see the un-founded madness of his claims to your own?

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

That's interesting about the instinctive behaviour of the beetle. But hold on a minute. You didn't display instinctive behaviour; you had a dream about a tsunami. Where could your unconscious mind have gotten such detailed information? Are you saying we are hard-wired to dream about tsunamis when we feel certain rumblings? Either the information on tsunamis is stored genetically (because it has to be transmitted from generation to generation) or something much more mysterious is going on. Which is it?

BT

By tsunami I meant the earthquake

geezer,

I'm not sure why you think I might be patronising you,

because you replied by telling me about your dreams and not, I will take the test which is now clear you wont, but i knew that anyway,

I didn't say I wouldn't take any test, just that I wouldn't take Randi's test. I simply don't trust the man.

bluetriangle wrote:
when what I'm trying to do is inform people on this forum about extraordinary information and phenomena of which I have personal experience and which have immense bearing on our understanding of the nature of reality.

wrong, your not informing anybody it just goes' in one ear and out the other because extraordinary claims, need extraordinary evidence, wheres yours.

As I said earlier, for some people, no amount of evidence is (currently) enough. Part of the problem is that it's currently fashionable to be a scientific materialist. When the reality of psychic phenomena and the spiritual planes is finally accepted by our intellectual establishment, many former arch-sceptics will suddenly be far more open to such claims, because they won't want to be out of fashion.

bluetriangle wrote:
As for the tests, from what I understand of the application form and from my own opinion of James Randi, I think he would set the bar unreasonably high for what he would consider 'acceptable evidence'. He also fails to understand that psychic phenomena such as precognition are usually not under the control of the person concerned - nor should they be.

what utter rubbish, how low should the bar be, "we accept you can dream the future" get serious. randi has been studying the supernatural/psychic phenomena for years. I think he and his staff are well versed in said fields, hence why I'm willing to place my own money in the mix.

Okay, consider a hypothetical example: You have an aunt and uncle you haven't seen in years. One night you dream of meeting your uncle and his head is painted blue. Next morning you meet his wife, your aunt, who is wearing blue tinted specs.

Would this pass your test for a precognitive dream?

The transpersonal psychologist Stanislav Grof once tried to remote view his parent's flat in Eastern Europe whilst in the USA, after taking LSD. To his surprise he was successful. Moreover, he appeared to be actually there in a body (bilocation). To prove he had actually been there he decided to take a picture off the wall, then later phone his parents for confirmation that the picture had actually been removed. As he lifted his hand up to the picture he had nightmarish visions of roulette wheels, sinister conspiracies and demonic powers, realised he was risking his very soul with this action and decided not to do it. Why? Because he realised he was not mature enough to know whether it was possible or not. He was still too egotistical to resist using the knowledge for his personal gain.

and of course thats the true reason he never took the picture, it wasn't because he was totally BSing and could not remote view, give me a break.

He is a psychiatrist with a world-class reputation. Do yourself a favour and read some of his books, or at least look at his website.

BT

captaincaveman,

Quote:
A lot. Robert Pirsig, author of the seminal 'Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance', had a mystical experience, after which he was carted away to a mental institution and had his brain fried with numerous doses of ECT (now illegal).

That treatment doesn't happen in the uk now, i dont think your insane, seriously deluded yes, but not insane, you can argue ti point of me not having an open mind or not seeing the "truth", but the facts still remain, you have no proof

Well deluded and insane are pretty close in meaning. One only obtains proof in mathematics (and even there some propositions are not decidable). What I have shown you is evidence of pi, e, alpha and other numbers encoded within scriptures so old the writers couldn't possibly have been responsible, suggesting the direction of a higher power. I have also found encodings of pi, phi and e within the NIV Bible, with a combined error of 1 part in 5 million, along with many other numbers. None of it is proof. However, it is evidence, because the encodings are statistically unlikely. This is the same basis on which much of science works: the steady accumulation of data, supporting some hypotheses and undermining others. The codes I and others have unearthed will, along with many other lines of evidence, undermine the paradigm of scientific materialism, until it falls into the abyss where it now belongs, having served its purpose in our world.

can you post links to this "sufficient evidence"????

I can point you in the direction of a few.

http://www.farsight.org/
http://www.enformy.com/mediums.htm
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...gl=uk&ie=UTF-8
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...nalitystudies/

Quote:
Why would she be party to such a horrible deception? Remember, she is a devout Christian and highly ethical person, who is well aware of the consequences of such a sin

i wouldn't know her or anyone elses reasons for this, but to compound someones faith could be an excellent reason

By deliberately typing up a message, then saying it had miraculously appeared there? It would go against all her principles and be an offense against God, in her eyes. It would amount to blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is the worst offense a Christian can commit.

Quote:
He is a very courageous man. I don't happen to agree will much of what he says, but his courage is beyond doubt - and he does understand that the spiritual realms are real

But can you see the un-founded madness of his claims to your own?

Of course I can. That is why I reserve judgment on him. I've read a little of his claims. Some of them sound authentic, although the main thrust of his argument - that we are controlled by an elite who are in reality reptilian aliens or demonic powers - is a little over the top! Neither do I like the dramatic, sensationalised tone of his claims. He may have accessed real information but be too immature to correctly perceive it, or he may be filtering it through a faulty belief system, distorting it. I also believe we are to some extent controlled (manipulated would be a better word) by an elite, and they may certainly be tapping into or be themselves manipulated by darker forces. I just can't buy into shapeshifting aliens.

BT

Nevyn,

You didn't display instinctive behaviour; you had a dream about a tsunami. Where could your unconscious mind have gotten such detailed information? Are you saying we are hard-wired to dream about tsunamis when we feel certain rumblings? Either the information on tsunamis is stored genetically (because it has to be transmitted from generation to generation) or something much more mysterious is going on. Which is it?

By tsunami I meant the earthquake

That makes no difference. You are suggesting we are genetically encoded to dream about threatening events before they hit us, these dreams being triggered by subtle physical signs, such as atmospheric changes or subliminal rumblings, etc.

But dreams are not behaviours: they are complex psychological events, created (materialists say) by the brain, the most complex organ we know of. How can these be encoded into our genes?

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

I didn't say I wouldn't take any test, just that I wouldn't take Randi's test. I simply don't trust the man.

so if I a complete stranger setup the test, with the exact same condictions, you'll take the tests, ok i'll get on to the institute and arange it, and I'll make sure randi's a million miles away.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

As I said earlier, for some people, no amount of evidence is (currently) enough.

objective evidence would be enough.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Part of the problem is that it's currently fashionable to be a scientific materialist. When the reality of psychic phenomena and the spiritual planes is finally accepted by our intellectual establishment,

yes of course when and if there ever is any objective evidence, anybody denying it would be a fool.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

many former arch-sceptics will suddenly be far more open to such claims, because they won't want to be out of fashion.

or appear a fool.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Okay, consider a hypothetical example: You have an aunt and uncle you haven't seen in years. One night you dream of meeting your uncle and his head is painted blue. Next morning you meet his wife, your aunt, who is wearing blue tinted specs.

and the relevance of the blue tinted specs is.
you weren't look at his head through blue tinted glasses,

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Would this pass your test for a precognitive dream?

pure supposition, purely coincidence.
I traveled once to new zealand, and saw I guy I used to hang around with at school, and he was on hoilday from america where he now lives, now we do business together. would you say that was fated, or purely coincidence, I plum for the latter. nothing strange and supernatural about just random chance that we would be at the same place. heard of deju vu
where the mind and your eyes play tricks on you. thats where most of your dreams come into play.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

He is a psychiatrist with a world-class reputation. Do yourself a favour and read some of his books, or at least look at his website.

an appeal to authority or popularity is worthless, he could be the queen of sheba, if he talking rubbish he's talking rubbish, he needs to produce evidence for his claim which he has not. all his works are to do with hallucinogenic drugs, get serious.

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

That makes no difference. You are suggesting we are genetically encoded to dream about threatening events before they hit us, these dreams being triggered by subtle physical signs, such as atmospheric changes or subliminal rumblings, etc.

BT

Jesus, this guys worse than an Ilkley'man. That's not what I am saying, I am saying that we are built to detect these things (and yes, there are litterally THOUSANDS of examples through nature) The Reptilian brain is where these instincts are based along with the behavioural centre and memory cortex.

But dreams are not behaviours: they are complex psychological events, created (materialists say) by the brain, the most complex organ we know of. How can these be encoded into our genes?

"The reason why the state of a human's brain cannot be passed down is that it simply won't compress down into anything small enough that can fit inside of a cell. However, the parameters of the prior associated with all of these learning problems [that a person solves throughout their life] is a significantly smaller quantity that can be compressed down to the level of a cell. One can view DNA as a capsule that contains these hyperparameters. Once passed down from one generation to another, these parameters would determine how likely one is going to be; however, the state of the new brain will have be filled in again from experience in the real world."

from: link

that just about cover it?

geezer,

I didn't say I wouldn't take any test, just that I wouldn't take Randi's test. I simply don't trust the man.

so if I a complete stranger setup the test, with the exact same condictions, you'll take the tests, ok i'll get on to the institute and arange it, and I'll make sure randi's a million miles away.

There is a parapsychology institute near where I live. I've occasionally thought about going there out of interest. That's the kind of test I would take. I'm not interested in this kind of cheap sensationalism. Anybody who takes a test in an attempt to win large amounts of money is misusing their gift.

bluetriangle wrote:
As I said earlier, for some people, no amount of evidence is (currently) enough.

objective evidence would be enough.

Yes, but evidence is not proof. There are always some who will say "That's not good enough evidence". They will continue in that manner until the paradigm shift occurs and these phenomena are generally accepted (they already are outside intellectual circles).

bluetriangle wrote:
Okay, consider a hypothetical example: You have an aunt and uncle you haven't seen in years. One night you dream of meeting your uncle and his head is painted blue. Next morning you meet his wife, your aunt, who is wearing blue tinted specs.

and the relevance of the blue tinted specs is.
you weren't look at his head through blue tinted glasses,

The blue head and blue-tinted specs are meaningfully related.

Would this pass your test for a precognitive dream?

pure supposition, purely coincidence.

I don't think you're ready to be persuaded of the reality of precognition then. It usually works like that. There is usually a twist of some kind in the information given, so that it is disguised (or so that sceptics like you can interpret it as coincidence, if you're not ready to accept it).

I traveled once to new zealand, and saw I guy I used to hang around with at school, and he was on hoilday from america where he now lives, now we do business together. would you say that was fated, or purely coincidence, I plum for the latter. nothing strange and supernatural about just random chance that we would be at the same place. heard of deju vu
where the mind and your eyes play tricks on you. thats where most of your dreams come into play.

It could have been coincidence, but it could also have been what Jung called 'synchronicity', meaningful coincidence. Once again, though, you have to be ready to accept the possibility.

bluetriangle wrote:
He is a psychiatrist with a world-class reputation. Do yourself a favour and read some of his books, or at least look at his website.

an appeal to authority or popularity is worthless, he could be the queen of sheba, if he talking rubbish he's talking rubbish, he needs to produce evidence for his claim which he has not. all his works are to do with hallucinogenic drugs, get serious.

You're right: an appeal to authority carries no weight (mind you, scientists do it all the time, quoting Newton, Einstein, etc). That's why I recommend you at least read one of his books, or visit his website. It's on a list I put on my posting to captaincaveman.

Your dismissal of hallucinogenic drugs shows how little you know of the subject. Also, most of Grof's work has been with holotropic breathwork, which produces similar results to LSD.

BT

Nevyn,

That makes no difference. You are suggesting we are genetically encoded to dream about threatening events before they hit us, these dreams being triggered by subtle physical signs, such as atmospheric changes or subliminal rumblings, etc.

Jesus, this guys worse than an Ilkley'man. That's not what I am saying, I am saying that we are built to detect these things (and yes, there are litterally THOUSANDS of examples through nature) The Reptilian brain is where these instincts are based along with the behavioural centre and memory cortex.

Yes, there are indeed thousands of such examples. I'm not disputing the reality of instinctive behaviour. What I am disputing is that this behaviour includes the ability to construct dreams giving detailed information of the actual event to occur. How could this be encoded within our DNA?

Quote:
But dreams are not behaviours: they are complex psychological events, created (materialists say) by the brain, the most complex organ we know of. How can these be encoded into our genes?

"The reason why the state of a human's brain cannot be passed down is that it simply won't compress down into anything small enough that can fit inside of a cell.

In other words, dreams could not be encoded into our DNA.

However, the parameters of the prior associated with all of these learning problems [that a person solves throughout their life] is a significantly smaller quantity that can be compressed down to the level of a cell. One can view DNA as a capsule that contains these hyperparameters. Once passed down from one generation to another, these parameters would determine how likely one is going to be; however, the state of the new brain will have be filled in again from experience in the real world."

So we have to have experience of tsunamis and earthquakes, so that a putative genetically-encoded instruction for converting experience into warning dreams could have a chance to come into operation. But, unless you live in an earthquake zone, or have been unlucky enough to have experienced numerous tsunamis, you will not have gained this experience.

Do you live in an earhquake zone? Have you been swept away by numerous tsunamis?

BT

Well deluded and insane are pretty close in meaning. One only obtains proof in mathematics (and even there some propositions are not decidable). What I have shown you is evidence of pi, e, alpha and other numbers encoded within scriptures so old the writers couldn't possibly have been responsible, suggesting the direction of a higher power. I have also found encodings of pi, phi and e within the NIV Bible, with a combined error of 1 part in 5 million, along with many other numbers. None of it is proof. However, it is evidence, because the encodings are statistically unlikely. This is the same basis on which much of science works: the steady accumulation of data, supporting some hypotheses and undermining others. The codes I and others have unearthed will, along with many other lines of evidence, undermine the paradigm of scientific materialism, until it falls into the abyss where it now belongs, having served its purpose in our world.

statisically unlikely means nothing more than what it is not PROOF of divinity, if i had the time and inclination i could find meanings in any "important" part of ANY best seller by stephen king, but i dont, life too short to start getting overly paranoid about these meaningless things

I can point you in the direction of a few

Any meaningful studies? i just seem to see links to some new age mumbo jumbo sites

By deliberately typing up a message, then saying it had miraculously appeared there? It would go against all her principles and be an offense against God, in her eyes. It would amount to blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is the worst offense a Christian can commit.

religious people have done worse, maybe it was a fellow student, or dare i say it..... yourself, its not a claim that i would personally consider to have any merit or authenticity. A deeply religious person who happens upon a personal message "typed" by god, Is god a user of manual or electronic typewriters? or has he moved on to word processors?, sorry to be rude but come on, surely a message would be more impressive carved in 100ft letters into the side of a mountain overnight, that would get some attention. How was gods grammar and spelling, better than mine i hope

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

How was gods grammar and spelling, better than mine i hope

Of course it was. We all know God is an Englishman.

captaincaveman,

statisically unlikely means nothing more than what it is not PROOF of divinity, if i had the time and inclination i could find meanings in any "important" part of ANY best seller by stephen king, but i dont, life too short to start getting overly paranoid about these meaningless things

But many scientific results are either based upon, or rely heavily upon, statistical information. Are you going to refuse to entertain them because of this?

Any meaningful studies? i just seem to see links to some new age mumbo jumbo sites

Then you haven't looked at them. Go look again. I particularly recommend the third URL, which shows the impressive results of many different studies of psi effects. Here is the beginning of its conclusion.

Conclusion
It appears quite clear from the above review that irrespective what interpretation is given to specific research reports, the overall results of parapsychological experimentation are indicative of an anomalous process of information transfer, and they are not marginal and neither are they impossible to replicate. In the face of this,the critic who merely goes on asserting there is no evidence for psi is using a tactic reminiscent of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraq’s former information Minister, in blindly asserting there are no American troops in Baghdad.

I know what they mean.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Nevyn,

Yes, there are indeed thousands of such examples. I'm not disputing the reality of instinctive behaviour. What I am disputing is that this behaviour includes the ability to construct dreams giving detailed information of the actual event to occur. How could this be encoded within our DNA?

Never did I say that dreams were encoded in DNA, Instincts however are. During sleep the subconcious mind is dominant, this is were dreams come from and funnily enough so does the instincts.

In other words, dreams could not be encoded into our DNA.

Again I never said that dreams could be. Insticts can.

So we have to have experience of tsunamis and earthquakes, so that a putative genetically-encoded instruction for converting experience into warning dreams could have a chance to come into operation. But, unless you live in an earthquake zone, or have been unlucky enough to have experienced numerous tsunamis, you will not have gained this experience.

Do you live in an earhquake zone? Have you been swept away by numerous tsunamis?

I have experianced numerous Earthquakes. But that is not the point. Instincts are not built in one life time. We are born with them, we do not have to exeriance an earthqauke for instincts to become active e.g Capricorn Beetle.
The connection between dreams and instincts is feasable, but Instincts are meant to be used when awake so when asleep it is possible for the instict to be translated into a dream though the subconcious mind.

But many scientific results are either based upon, or rely heavily upon, statistical information. Are you going to refuse to entertain them because of this?

yes of course many scientific results rely on statistical information, but that still doesn't mean anything. Any crackpot could use any stats to prove a point but it still makes them just stats, thats not all the science is based on, but it seems thats the best your religion can offer is a weak use of the psuedoscience that is numerology. like i said given enough time and delusions i too could find patterns in stephen kings books

Then you haven't looked at them. Go look again. I particularly recommend the third URL, which shows the impressive results of many different studies of psi effects. Here is the beginning of its conclusion.

Conclusion
It appears quite clear from the above review that irrespective what interpretation is given to specific research reports, the overall results of parapsychological experimentation are indicative of an anomalous process of information transfer, and they are not marginal and neither are they impossible to replicate. In the face of this,the critic who merely goes on asserting there is no evidence for psi is using a tactic reminiscent of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraq’s former information Minister, in blindly asserting there are no American troops in Baghdad.

I know what they mean.

oh my god, hes proven theres a god That is so weak its funny, why is it the only people doing these reports are seriously biased towards religion? hmmm i wonder why

Look at the first paragraph from that link

The article has the purpose of making readily available for scrutiny primary sources relating to studies that give evidence of psi-phenomena. Although the list is not offered as providing compelling evidence or “proof� of psi, it is meant to provide a strongcase for a recruitment of resources. The effects are not marginal or non-replicable ones although it is clear that in many cases they appear to be dependent on certain experimenters and participants.

that kinda sums it up, more new age psuedoscience whos results are biased totally

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

How was gods grammar and spelling, better than mine i hope

Of course it was. We all know God is an Englishman.

ah that explains some of his/her dry humour then

Nevyn,

Never did I say that dreams were encoded in DNA, Instincts however are. During sleep the subconcious mind is dominant, this is were dreams come from and funnily enough so does the instincts.

Yes, but instinctive behaviour usually involves actions, such as the Babinski reflex, where a baby fans its toes when the ball of the foot is stroked. Dreams are an entirely different category of behaviour. Reflexes are like hardware programs, whereas dreams more resemble software that exists at an independant level.

Dreams cannot be explained in terms of instincts. Period.

I have experianced numerous Earthquakes. But that is not the point. Instincts are not built in one life time. We are born with them, we do not have to exeriance an earthqauke for instincts to become active e.g Capricorn Beetle.

But this, as I have by now I hope made clear, cannot affect our dreams.

Instincts are meant to be used when awake so when asleep it is possible for the instict to be translated into a dream though the subconcious mind.

Rubbish (see above).

You really have no explanation, other than that we have an instinct that can create detailed dreams out of (for instance) faint tremors, to explain why you dreamed of a tsunami the night before one occurred. But this is patently ridiculous, for the same reason that hardware cannot give rise to a software program.

However, if you really meant an earthquake (although that is not what you said in your original posting) then I agree it is possible that you could have, from your memory of previous earthquakes, created a dream of an earthquake.

Can you at least accept the possibility that your dream was precognitive?

BT

captaincaveman,

but it seems thats the best your religion can offer is a weak use of the psuedoscience that is numerology.

Once again, you are defining it as numerology, using the word as a term of abuse. It is what it is. And it's not all that my religion can offer. It's one of many ways God is speaking to us.

Are you aware of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary outside a church in Cairo. They went on for three years (1968 - 1971), were witnessed by thousands of people and were photographed.

like i said given enough time and delusions i too could find patterns in stephen kings books

I've tried this, for control purposes, with some of my wife's crime novels. I found the odd number related to the Trinity, but no larger pattern, within the first 24 words of each book. Within the first 24 words of the NIV Bible I found six numbers directly related to the Trinity, all found by bisecting the 24 words into two groups of 12 words, then bisecting again. Here, the numbers were oganised into a larger pattern. See

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/signature.html

Conclusion
It appears quite clear from the above review that irrespective what interpretation is given to specific research reports, the overall results of parapsychological experimentation are indicative of an anomalous process of information transfer, and they are not marginal and neither are they impossible to replicate. In the face of this,the critic who merely goes on asserting there is no evidence for psi is using a tactic reminiscent of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraq’s former information Minister, in blindly asserting there are no American troops in Baghdad.

oh my god, hes proven theres a god That is so weak its funny, why is it the only people doing these reports are seriously biased towards religion? hmmm i wonder why

Are you taking part in a debate here, or just being childish? In case you're not sure what maturity is, let me give you a hint: mature people don't try to rubbish information that conflicts with their opinions. They give it a chance.

Quote:
The article has the purpose of making readily available for scrutiny primary sources relating to studies that give evidence of psi-phenomena. Although the list is not offered as providing compelling evidence or “proof� of psi, it is meant to provide a strongcase for a recruitment of resources. The effects are not marginal or non-replicable ones although it is clear that in many cases they appear to be dependent on certain experimenters and participants.

that kinda sums it up, more new age psuedoscience whos results are biased totally

Sums it up? The only person who is biased is you! The researchers (not new-agers) are trying to be fair and balanced in their introduction.

BT

Originally Posted by bluetriangle

Nevyn,

Yes, but instinctive behaviour usually involves actions, such as the Babinski reflex, where a baby fans its toes when the ball of the foot is stroked. Dreams are an entirely different category of behaviour. Reflexes are like hardware programs, whereas dreams more resemble software that exists at an independant level.

Dreams cannot be explained in terms of instincts. Period.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with what I put. YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING ME. I never said that dreams were instincts.

But this, as I have by now I hope made clear, cannot affect our dreams.

?!? you are dancing around my words. Instincts do affect dreams

Rubbish (see above).

see what you havent put anything substantial

You really have no explanation, other than that we have an instinct that can create detailed dreams out of (for instance) faint tremors, to explain why you dreamed of a tsunami the night before one occurred. But this is patently ridiculous, for the same reason that hardware cannot give rise to a software program.

I never said it was detailed, it is possible and all humans are programmed with the same basic functions (software i believe you called it)

However, if you really meant an earthquake (although that is not what you said in your original posting) then I agree it is possible that you could have, from your memory of previous earthquakes, created a dream of an earthquake.

Can you at least accept the possibility that your dream was precognitive

NO, there is no such thing.

Articles which support Instict dream dualism:
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.009.0394a
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Instin...onscious/Sleep
Hell there is even an entire book supporting it
http://www.sleeps.com/forums/general-chit-chat/8390.htm
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH...l?d=dmtContent
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...stract/71/1/75
http://www.tutu-inc.com/thesis/THESIS.htm
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journ....1hayward.html
http://www.schuelers.com/ChaosPsyche/part_2_12.htm
http://jung.org/dream_interview.html
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Instin...the_Censorship

Please note some of these sites require you to log in. Also many of these come from reliable sources i.e Psycologists and Biologists. Have fun

Once again, you are defining it as numerology, using the word as a term of abuse. It is what it is. And it's not all that my religion can offer. It's one of many ways God is speaking to us.

Are you aware of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary outside a church in Cairo. They went on for three years (1968 - 1971), were witnessed by thousands of people and were photographed.

to clarify

numerology - "The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life" thats the dictinary definition of the word, why do you have an issue with that? embarrasment?

yes of course i know about the virgin mary mass hysteria incident

"From April 1968 to May 1971, more than 100,000 people reported observing Virgin Mary apparitions above a Coptic Orthodox Church at Zeitoun, Egypt. Witnesses' descriptions varied between two main types: small bright, short-lived lights nicknamed "doves," and more enduring, less intense, diffuse patches of glowing light (Johnston 1980). Canadian neuropsychologist Michael Persinger of Laurentian University and his American colleague John Derr (1989) analyzed seismic activity in the region from 1958 to 1979, and found an unprecedented peak in earthquakes during 1969. They state that "The 'narrow' window of significant temporal relationship between luminous phenomena and earthquakes is within the classic time frame of more acceptable antecedents (e.g., microseismic activity) of imminent earthquake activity." It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary. "

hardly proof again

I've tried this, for control purposes, with some of my wife's crime novels. I found the odd number related to the Trinity, but no larger pattern, within the first 24 words of each book. Within the first 24 words of the NIV Bible I found six numbers directly related to the Trinity, all found by bisecting the 24 words into two groups of 12 words, then bisecting again. Here, the numbers were oganised into a larger pattern. See

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/signature.html

Again, just standard numerology practaces, maybe done by a non religiously biased person wouldgive different results, but who'd bother wasting their time

Are you taking part in a debate here, or just being childish? In case you're not sure what maturity is, let me give you a hint: mature people don't try to rubbish information that conflicts with their opinions. They give it a chance.

Ok i'll apologise for that comment, but ive never met someone before who has been so far removed from reality, and as before i genuinely think that to be the case

I never understand the double standards involved with religion, if a non religious person gets voices and messages they are medicated, but for a religious person it is allowed and i believe your repeating of the use of numerology(and its defense) to be an unhealthy obbsession

I honestly believe from a psychological point of view that you need to step back and review your actions and views on this subject and hopefully see how unhealthy it actually is

Sums it up? The only person who is biased is you! The researchers (not new-agers) are trying to be fair and balanced in their introduction.

How are you not biased? everybody is to a certain degree, from your first post in this thread i have research the whole numerology subject and am happy with my conclusions on the findings, im sorry you dont like it to be labelled as such, but that is exactly what it is, i see it as that and hence my bias against it, im sorry you have failed it converting me but my world views are based on the facts i see, smell, hear and understand around me, i dont believe in psuedo-science or spiritual mumbo jumbo and some weak mathematics will not change my mind, if your god wants me, he'll have to try a darn sight harder to impress me, like i said before 200ft letters carved into the mountain overnight would probably help

Nevyn,

Dreams cannot be explained in terms of instincts. Period.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with what I put. YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING ME. I never said that dreams were instincts.

I do understand you, but I don't think you understand me. I am saying that instinct cannot explain why you dreamed of a tsunami the night before one actually occurred. Why? because any seismic activity you may have felt (if you did feel it - that's very much open to question) could not have given rise to such a detailed dream.

The only possibility is that you may have repeatedly experienced one and your memory of it was triggered by feeling the same pattern of vibrations as before. If so, then I accept that as a possible explanation.

Can you at least accept the possibility that your dream was precognitive

NO, there is no such thing.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Please note some of these sites require you to log in. Also many of these come from reliable sources i.e Psycologists and Biologists. Have fun

I found no information on the sites I could log into. Could you direct me to one specific instance where the relationship between dreams and instincts is discussed, and supporting your interpretation?

BT

captaincaveman,

numerology - "The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life" thats the dictinary definition of the word, why do you have an issue with that? embarrasment?

I have an issue with that because I do not use numbers in that way. Numbers have no meaning other than the value they represent. However, an unknown intelligence has,

a) teleologically evolved certain (or all) languages such that they contain a numerical substructure. This has long been studied by kabbalists, who maintain that words related by meaning also appear to be related by numerical value. I agree with this to some extent, although I believe that the relationship is more obtuse that kabbalists assert.

b) influenced the writing of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures and at least one translation of the Bible (the NIV) such that numbers are encoded there.

These numbers link the plain text words of scripture to relaed concepts via the numbers. An example:

Rev. 13:18 (NIV)

This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

The ordinal value of this infamous verse is 1151.

Beelzebub (s) = 1151

"From April 1968 to May 1971, more than 100,000 people reported observing Virgin Mary apparitions above a Coptic Orthodox Church at Zeitoun, Egypt. Witnesses' descriptions varied between two main types: small bright, short-lived lights nicknamed "doves," and more enduring, less intense, diffuse patches of glowing light (Johnston 1980). Canadian neuropsychologist Michael Persinger of Laurentian University and his American colleague John Derr (1989) analyzed seismic activity in the region from 1958 to 1979, and found an unprecedented peak in earthquakes during 1969. They state that "The 'narrow' window of significant temporal relationship between luminous phenomena and earthquakes is within the classic time frame of more acceptable antecedents (e.g., microseismic activity) of imminent earthquake activity." It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary. "

hardly proof again

It hardly explains why the light took on the appearance of the Virgin Mary!

Quote:
I've tried this, for control purposes, with some of my wife's crime novels. I found the odd number related to the Trinity, but no larger pattern, within the first 24 words of each book. Within the first 24 words of the NIV Bible I found six numbers directly related to the Trinity, all found by bisecting the 24 words into two groups of 12 words, then bisecting again. Here, the numbers were oganised into a larger pattern.

Again, just standard numerology practaces, maybe done by a non religiously biased person wouldgive different results, but who'd bother wasting their time

What!? If the maths is done correctly everyone would get the same result. Why don't you actually look at the page? The only argument is whether the phenomenon is chance or design.

How are you not biased? everybody is to a certain degree, from your first post in this thread i have research the whole numerology subject and am happy with my conclusions on the findings, im sorry you dont like it to be labelled as such, but that is exactly what it is, i see it as that and hence my bias against it, im sorry you have failed it converting me but my world views are based on the facts i see, smell, hear and understand around me, i dont believe in psuedo-science or spiritual mumbo jumbo and some weak mathematics will not change my mind, if your god wants me, he'll have to try a darn sight harder to impress me, like i said before 200ft letters carved into the mountain overnight would probably help

There's nothing wrong with relying on your five senses. But what if we have a sixth sense, lying dormant in most? This seems to be awakened in some but not in others, and also seems to be related to our view of life itself: we can shut it out by simply not believing in it (it then withers).

All I can say to you is: give it a chance. Try one experiment with telepathy, try praying to God for a sign, go see a medium or try meditation. And do it with a genuinely open mind. You might be surprised by what happens.

BT

It hardly explains why the light took on the appearance of the Virgin Mary!

humans have a massive habit of finding faces, shapes and symbols, hence the man in the moon, jesus face on toast, shoud of turin, theres a massive part of our brain thats used for this, something to do with facial/espessional observations if i remember correctly

What!? If the maths is done correctly everyone would get the same result. Why don't you actually look at the page? The only argument is whether the phenomenon is chance or design

correct. And my argument is for shance everytime, if it turns out to be design(which i doubt), then it still doesn't point to divinity

There's nothing wrong with relying on your five senses. But what if we have a sixth sense, lying dormant in most? This seems to be awakened in some but not in others, and also seems to be related to our view of life itself: we can shut it out by simply not believing in it (it then withers).

All I can say to you is: give it a chance. Try one experiment with telepathy, try praying to God for a sign, go see a medium or try meditation. And do it with a genuinely open mind. You might be surprised by what happens.

But the important thing here is what IF, thats the important word IF, until that point is proven or i experience something myself then it will always be a fringe psuedo subject, You need to take into account that many of these "experiences" are down to cold hard science and psychological situations. Look at the "feelings" that people get in so called haunted houses and how that is now believed to be down to infrasound, look at how peoples experiences and mass hysteria start when people believe they are going into a haunted house, derren brown showed alot of whats possible with allowing the human mind to run away with itself by pushing the right psychological buttons

I dont think its the case of some people are more gifted or open to these "spiritual" experiences, i think some or more easily led and gullable, ive always found that those who believe in the words of a medium are also more likely to believe in ghosts, crystal healing and all the other BS mumbo jumbo that goes along with it

[quote="bluetriangle"]Nevyn,

I do understand you, but I don't think you understand me. I am saying that instinct cannot explain why you dreamed of a tsunami the night before one actually occurred. Why? because any seismic activity you may have felt (if you did feel it - that's very much open to question) could not have given rise to such a detailed dream.

I never said the dream was detailed.

The only possibility is that you may have repeatedly experienced one and your memory of it was triggered by feeling the same pattern of vibrations as before. If so, then I accept that as a possible explanation.

It's not the only possiblity if you would just open your mind to the science

I wouldn't be so sure.

I would and am

I found no information on the sites I could log into. Could you direct me to one specific instance where the relationship between dreams and instincts is discussed, and supporting your interpretation?

Why should I do your work for you? I believe that you havent looked at any of them due to the length of many of these works.

captaincaveman,

Quote:
It hardly explains why the light took on the appearance of the Virgin Mary!

humans have a massive habit of finding faces, shapes and symbols, hence the man in the moon, jesus face on toast, shoud of turin, theres a massive part of our brain thats used for this, something to do with facial/espessional observations if i remember correctly

If you look at the photographs, you'll see that they are definitely in the shape of a madonna-like figure. I don't see how lights associated with earthquakes could explain that. Also the many eyewitnesses said that the Virgin interacted with them, waving, etc. This was not a case of thousands of people being deluded: this was a real, supernatural phenomenon. You can't admit that, because to do so would collapse your entire worldview. I understand.

Quote:
What!? If the maths is done correctly everyone would get the same result. Why don't you actually look at the page? The only argument is whether the phenomenon is chance or design

correct. And my argument is for shance everytime, if it turns out to be design(which i doubt), then it still doesn't point to divinity

It points to either human design or the design of another intelligence. I think I can show that human design is unlikely.

To argue chance after so much evidence has already been produced is to simply be unreasonable, unscientific and ungracious. It is also more than a little foolish, because if this phenomenon is real, then the intelligence behind it obviously has something to say to us. It would be wise to listen to it, rather than turn our backs to it. With such capabilities, it is obviously far better informed than are we.

But the important thing here is what IF, thats the important word IF, until that point is proven or i experience something myself then it will always be a fringe psuedo subject, You need to take into account that many of these "experiences" are down to cold hard science and psychological situations. Look at the "feelings" that people get in so called haunted houses and how that is now believed to be down to infrasound, look at how peoples experiences and mass hysteria start when people believe they are going into a haunted house, derren brown showed alot of whats possible with allowing the human mind to run away with itself by pushing the right psychological buttons

I dont think its the case of some people are more gifted or open to these "spiritual" experiences, i think some or more easily led and gullable, ive always found that those who believe in the words of a medium are also more likely to believe in ghosts, crystal healing and all the other BS mumbo jumbo that goes along with it

Of course there are many gullable people around and many of them have spiritual beliefs. That's not in question. However, the phenomena you dismiss so assuredly have been reported by many people, across every culture through the ages. They are not all gullable; many of them have excellent discriminatory powers, high intelligence, great learning, hold down responsible positions and are well-balanced sane individuals (leaving aside their spiritual beliefs for a second). Now this can also be said of many atheists. So what is the difference? The difference is that many of those with spiritual beliefs (the non-gullable ones) have chosen the path of personal growth in life. Of the many qualities this difficult path requires perhaps the hardest is the courage to accept and then proclaim that the experiences of transcendence they all have had are real, important and potentially for everyone.

BT

Nevyn,

I never said the dream was detailed.

If it contains enough detail for you to recognise that it was a tsunami (or earthquake - which was it you dreamed about anyway?), then that was more than instinct alone could explain.

How far away were you from this tsunami/earthquake?

The only possibility is that you may have repeatedly experienced one and your memory of it was triggered by feeling the same pattern of vibrations as before. If so, then I accept that as a possible explanation.

It's not the only possiblity if you would just open your mind to the science

You haven't shown me any! I await it with interest. See below.

I found no information on the sites I could log into. Could you direct me to one specific instance where the relationship between dreams and instincts is discussed, and supporting your interpretation?

Why should I do your work for you? I believe that you havent looked at any of them due to the length of many of these works.

If you have the information it is only polite to direct me to it, rather than give me a list of websites, which might take me hours to trawl through.

BT

wow! I haven't been on for like a week, and already this thread is on the sixth page!

...carry on...

If you look at the photographs, you'll see that they are definitely in the shape of a madonna-like figure. I don't see how lights associated with earthquakes could explain that. Also the many eyewitnesses said that the Virgin interacted with them, waving, etc. This was not a case of thousands of people being deluded: this was a real, supernatural phenomenon. You can't admit that, because to do so would collapse your entire worldview. I understand.

The reason i dont admit it is because it isn't true, if it was true then i would be foolish to risk my afterlife just to be stubborn or to not admit defeat. I dont believe in cutting off my nose to spite my face. The reason i dont believe it because there is no proof AT ALL, You believe it to be true because you are gullable enough to, i am not

It points to either human design or the design of another intelligence. I think I can show that human design is unlikely.

To argue chance after so much evidence has already been produced is to simply be unreasonable, unscientific and ungracious. It is also more than a little foolish, because if this phenomenon is real, then the intelligence behind it obviously has something to say to us. It would be wise to listen to it, rather than turn our backs to it. With such capabilities, it is obviously far better informed than are we.

Again you cannot prove anything, there is only evidence in YOUR mind and that of others like you, that doesn't make it unreasonable, unscientific or ungracious and it definetely isn't foolish, foolish is following out dated fairy tales because of paranoid fear and the need for a crutch for a weak mind, im sorry but your evangalism for your cult will not work on me, i dont succum to the attempted emotional black mail that works on the weak minded and impressional types who fall for organised religion

My gods are newton, bacon, darwin and those kind of people, those are the people whos scriptures run through my veins not the fear provoking BS that organised religion has used for millennia to put fear into people and emotionally force people under the control of their particular cult

Of course there are many gullable people around and many of them have spiritual beliefs. That's not in question. However, the phenomena you dismiss so assuredly have been reported by many people, across every culture through the ages. They are not all gullable; many of them have excellent discriminatory powers, high intelligence, great learning, hold down responsible positions and are well-balanced sane individuals (leaving aside their spiritual beliefs for a second). Now this can also be said of many atheists. So what is the difference? The difference is that many of those with spiritual beliefs (the non-gullable ones) have chosen the path of personal growth in life. Of the many qualities this difficult path requires perhaps the hardest is the courage to accept and then proclaim that the experiences of transcendence they all have had are real, important and potentially for everyone.

Athiests too go along a path of personal growth, their path is a darn site harder to walk cause they haven't the emotional crutch that religious people have/need, they dont need an afterlife to help them accept the inevitable death that we all face, thats courage, thats social evolution that will hopefully transend all mankind if we are to move forward away from childish fairy tales