Thread: Numerical miracles in the Qura'an

Researches on the Qura'an have shown miraculous numerical consistence...read on.

It is mentioned that one thing is equal to another, e.g men are equal to women. Although this makes sense grammatically, the astonishing fact is that the number of times the word man appears in the Qur'an is 24 and the number of times the word woman appears is also 24, therefore not only is this phrase correct in the grammatical sense but also true mathematically, i.e. 24 = 24.

Upon further analysis of various verses, it is discovered that this is consistent throughout the
whole Qur'an, where it says one thing is like another.

Various words and the number of times they have been mentioned in Arabic Qur'an:

* Dunia (one name for life) 115, aakirah(one name for after life) 115.
* Malaikat (angels) 88, shaytan (satan) 88
* Life 145, death 145
* Benefit 50, corrupt 50
* People 50, messangers 50
* Eblees(king of devils)11, seek refuge from eblees 11
* calamity (museeba) 75, thanks 75.
* Spending (sadaqah) 73, satisfaction 73.
* People who mislead 17, dead people 17
* Gold 8, easy life 8
* Magic 60, fitnah (dissuasion, misleading) 60
* Zakah (alms dues Muslims pay for the poor) 32, barakah (increasing or blessing of a wealth) 32
* Mind 49, Noor (enlightenment) 49
* Tongue 25, sermon 25
* Desire 8, fear 8
* Speaking publicly 18, publicizing 18
* hardship 114, patience 114
* Muhammad 4, Sharee'ah (Mohamad's teachings) 4
* Man 24, woman 24

As you can see, opposites, or words that are complementary to each other have been mentioned in the Qura'an the exact same number of times to emphasise their equality.

I would like to draw your attention again to the final example, i.e man 24, woman 24...for all those who accuse Islam of differentiation between the 2 sexes.

And amazingly enough have a look at how many times the following words appear:

* Salah (prayer) 5 ( muslims pray 5 times a day)
* Month 12
* Day 365
* Sea 32
* Land 13
* Sea + land = 32+13=45
% Sea = (32/45)*100%=71.1111111
% Land = (13/45)*100%=28.88888889
71.11111111+28.88888889 = 100.00!!
Modern science has only recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the earth, while the land covers 28.889%. Is this coincidence?

Here, again, is a baffling set of mathematical miracles in which the number 19 is prominent:

1- The first verse 1:1 known as "bismiLlah" consists of 19 letters.

2- This verse was revealed to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him after 74:30, which states "Over
it is 19" not a coincidence.

3- The Qura'an consists of 114 suras, which is 19X6.

4- The total number of verses in the Qura'an is 6346, or 19X334 (6234 numbered verses and 112
unnumbered verses (bismiLlah). 6234+112=6346. notice also that 6+3+4+6= 19

5- The bismiLlah occurs in the Qura'an 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it
occurs twice in Sura 27) and 114 = 19 X 6

6- From the missing bismiLlah of Sura 9 to the extra bismiLlah of Sura 27, there are precisely 19
Suras.

7- It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 9+10+11+12.... +26+27) is 342, or
19X 18

8- This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Bismillas of sura 27 and 342
= 19X18

9- The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words.

10- This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters, & 76=19X4

11- Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses.

12- This first Chronological sura is placed atop the last 19 suras.

13- Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters and 304 = 19X16

14- The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.

15- 14 different Arabic letters form 14 different sets of "Quranic Initials" (Such as A.L.M., of
2:1) and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29=57 19 X 3

16- The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic initials occur is 2+3+7.... +50+68=822,
and 822 +14 (14 sets of initials)=836 =19X44

17- Between the first initialed Sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed Sura (Sura 68 ) there are 38
un-initialed suras, 38=19X2

18- Between the first and last initialed sura there are 19 sets of alternating "initialed" and
"uninitialed" Suras,

19- The Qura'an mention 30 different whole numbers throughout:
i. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,19,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 ,99,100,200,300,1000,2000, 3000,5000,50,000,
& 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146 = 19X8534

20- The following 2 facts may need some help with a calculator.

21- The word God (ALLAH) occurs throughout the Qura'an in its 114 Suras 2698 times and 2698=
19X142.

22- The number of verses where the word God occurs add up to 118123 also a multiple of 19, =
19X6217

23- The Qura'an's dominant message is that there is only "ONE GOD"

24- The word 'One", in Arabic "Wahid" in reference to God occurs 19 times throughout the Qura'an.

25- The word "Wahid" itself (one) has a numerical value of 19. W=6, A=1, H=8, D= 4. These are
well-known values.

26- The word "Qura'an" occurs in the Qura'an 58 times, with one of them referring to "another Qura'an"
in 10:15, therefore, if excluded, the frequency of "this Qura'an" in the Qura'an is 57, or 19X3

27- The first Pillar of Islam is stated in 3:18 as "La Elaaha Ellal Lahoo". (There is no other
God besides Him). This most important expression occurs in 19 suras.

Important to note that these numerical patterns all refer to the original Arabic text.

Allah said: "We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth."
This is why Islam is a huge supporter of science...so that people may see the signs of the universe i.e in the studies of astronomy, cosmology, physics and Chemistry, and the signs in themselves, i.e in biological studies esp. human physiology, and so that they might, some day, discover all the miracles in the qura'an.

P.S. If you don't believe me, count them for yourself.

I did a word search of the Quran on this site
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
and found the word "man" 360 times versus 29 times for "woman"

The Quran Miracle stuff is debunked at the following site
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...l_miracles.htm
The following is a sample of quotes from the above web site.

"My friend, Muslims lie and that is the best thing they do. They are also gullible and willing to accept any lie to confirm their belief. That is why few Muslims try to verify these lies but rather pass them on to others and before you know a lie that is repeated often is believed to be true. "

"I read the link you gave and as it appears an ex follower of Rashid Khalifa is arguing the validity of the submitters’ claim that Quran is a numerical miracle. "

"In that link Daniel Lomax, who is still a Muslim, says that he has done a word search on Yawm (day) in the Quran and has found 475 recurrences of that word. However the Submitters who claim that the Quran contains numerical miracles, establish self-serving criteria to eliminate some of those words to come up with the desired number. For example the “days” in plural are not counted. yawma'idh, which means, literally, "the day when” is not counted. The same cheating tactic is used almost for every other word to make it fit into their “miracle of 19 ” mold."

Originally Posted by Harold14370

I did a word search of the Quran on this site
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
and found the word "man" 360 times versus 29 times for "woman"

The Quran Miracle stuff is debunked at the following site
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...l_miracles.htm
The following is a sample of quotes from the above web site.

"My friend, Muslims lie and that is the best thing they do. They are also gullible and willing to accept any lie to confirm their belief. That is why few Muslims try to verify these lies but rather pass them on to others and before you know a lie that is repeated often is believed to be true. "

"I read the link you gave and as it appears an ex follower of Rashid Khalifa is arguing the validity of the submitters’ claim that Quran is a numerical miracle. "

"In that link Daniel Lomax, who is still a Muslim, says that he has done a word search on Yawm (day) in the Quran and has found 475 recurrences of that word. However the Submitters who claim that the Quran contains numerical miracles, establish self-serving criteria to eliminate some of those words to come up with the desired number. For example the “days” in plural are not counted. yawma'idh, which means, literally, "the day when” is not counted. The same cheating tactic is used almost for every other word to make it fit into their “miracle of 19 ” mold."

Harold, I was not expecting you to believe any of this. I was only passing on what is proved by thorough testing and research of both the text of the Qura'an and the Arabic language. These discoveries have been made by reputable arabic language linguists and islamic scholars holding PHDs in Quranic studies.
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Arabic language would know how an effect of a word is changed completely in different contexts, and how it can have different meanings..Therefore, only the words with similar meaning in context are taken into consideration in this word count.
You might call this a "cheating tactic" but it is actually called accuracy and consistency in performing research.

let's take the word "man" for example. The word man is used frequently to mean human being. So, only the parts that refer to the male sex are taken.

By the way, Harold, muslims don't lie..It's against Islam to lie, you know...

You know, how we said before, that freedom of speech is not practised in the middle east...well, i can't open your link from faithfreedom.org, because the website is blocked by our internet service provider...so you've gotta post whatever you want me to see from there.

STB

Can you get this web site?
http://answering-islam.org/Religions...ics/lomax.html
There are a lot of different web sites that dispute the so-called Quran miracle. Not all of them call Muslims liars. These discussions tend to get rather long and I hate to paste big gobs of text here. I could send you a private message with the whole thing if you want.

This might give you the general flavor of the lomax text:

"Because the initial person to report the kind of phenomena we will be discussing was Rashad Khalifa, late of Tucson, Arizona, USA, and he also made numerous claims considered heretical by many, the subject is tainted with suspicion."

"''Khalifa claimed that the "miracle" was objectively verifiable. As such, it should stand regardless of the truth or falsity of the remainder of his claims. Allah, the Most High, has said in his book (49:6) "... If a wicked person comes to you with news [nabaa'], ascertain the truth, lest you harm people in ignorance..."

"Khalifa did not always follow the received Hafs version. In particular, he modified spelling in at least two places: at 7:69 he changed a Sad to a Sin, and at 68:1 he spelled out the initial letter, thus adding two extra letters. It could be said that he was following pronunciation, but in numerous instances, he emphasized that it was the written Qur'an that was being studied and counted, not the pronunciation. He justified the change at 7:69 by referring to the Tashkent Qur'an, which is perhaps the oldest extant copy, and the change at 68:1 by claiming that it was spelled out in the "original text." He never specified what, exactly, this "original text" was, or where it could be found."

No, actually, i can't get answering-islam.org either, and yes, I would appreciate it if you can send me a PM with the whole thing.

On a second note, while doing further research about the topic, I found an answer to your quote about the word day occuring 475 times:

The word "day" (yawm) occurs 365 times.
The word "days" (ayyam) occurs 27 times, the number of days in a sidereal month. Together with the dual plural form (yawmayn), all the plural form of the word occurs 30 times, the number of average days in a solar month.
The word day, besides its singular form occurring 365 times, and its plural form 30 times, all its derivatives and forms occur exactly 475 times (19x25). (Interestingly, the number 25 is the number of rotation the Sun makes around its axis while the world makes one full rotation around the Sun. In other words, in Meton cycle, the sun makes exactly 475 rotations). The plural of the word day has a detail, since Arabic has two plural forms. Unlike English Arabic has a different plural form for two things. For instance, for two days the form YaWMayn is used, while for more than three the form aYyaM is used. We see that the frequency of the dual form is 3, while the frequency of the general plural form is 27. Those who are familiar with astronomy would appreciate the detail.

Here's a link to the full article, there are also several more examples that I didn't mention in my original post:
http://19.org/index.php?id=76,256,0,0,1,0

Again, a reminder: the word frequencies are based on the Arabic text.

A miracle is generally cooler if someone proclaims their intention to do the miracle first, and then it happens.

It could well be that some early muslims purposefully edited the early versions of the Koran to make values like those (which were likely known to them) occcur. Remember, the Koran is a collection of quotes attributed to Mohamud, but which were not written down in a book until after his death.

so that's a bit like the bible - 20/20 hindsight

Agreed. It's always easy to have a perfect record of making predictions and having them come true, if you only write down the ones that came true. The prophets in Jewish history who were wrong might simply not be accepted as prophets by later historians.

all i can say is, someones got too much time and their hands , do you not understand how crazy you sound?

Kojax, you make it sound very simple to numerically code a book that is over a thousand pages long and at the same time make it deliver a certain message while being written in perfect arabic language and having an unsurpassed poetic beauty. It is obviously not "human work".

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar pattern occured in the bible, saying as it, too, I believe, is a book sent by God.

This is not about predictions or prophecies, this is a different type of miracle. A miracle that has endured over a thousand years and has only been discovered relatively recently. In the Qura'an, Allah challenges the disbelievers. He says to those who deny the miracles of the Qura'an, let them get a book like the Qura'an if they could. Can you?
Can you get me any book ( written by humans, that is...so excluding the Christian and hebrew bible) that has such an amazing word frequency pattern, which is imperceptible behind perfected text?

Lame example, but do you think, if I get a copy of Harry Potter, and count the number of times the word "Harry" occurs, it would be equal to the number of times the word "Voldemort" does?

Captaincaveman, a lot of people spend their lives seeking truth and knowledge, and a lot of people spend years studying and analysing religious scriptures. You might go as far as to call them "crazy", but personally, I give them credit for their hardwork.

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Kojax, you make it sound very simple to numerically code a book that is over a thousand pages long and at the same time make it deliver a certain message while being written in perfect arabic language and having an unsurpassed poetic beauty. It is obviously not "human work".

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar pattern occured in the bible, saying as it, too, I believe, is a book sent by God.

This is not about predictions or prophecies, this is a different type of miracle. A miracle that has endured over a thousand years and has only been discovered relatively recently. In the Qura'an, Allah challenges the disbelievers. He says to those who deny the miracles of the Qura'an, let them get a book like the Qura'an if they could. Can you?
Can you get me any book ( written by humans, that is...so excluding the Christian and hebrew bible) that has such an amazing word frequency pattern, which is imperceptible behind perfected text?

Lame example, but do you think, if I get a copy of Harry Potter, and count the number of times the word "Harry" occurs, it would be equal to the number of times the word "Voldemort" does?

Captaincaveman, a lot of people spend their lives seeking truth and knowledge, and a lot of people spend years studying and analysing religious scriptures. You might go as far as to call them "crazy", but personally, I give them credit for their hardwork.

with respect, theres plenty of people around the world in psychiatric wards or on long term medication who see these co-incidences around them, thinking they are seeing "signs", and "gods messages", its kinda a sad way to be really.

religion to me is just a form of mass hysteria, and the more religious you are, the more paranoid and irrational your view on the world


look at the words your comparing, you could do that with catcher in the rye if you wanted to, it all about choosing words to suit.

It always makes me laugh when something bad is said in the koran, its down to wrong translation, but when its something good, we will ignore that side of it and the terminology that fit best is used

madness in the name of religion is still madness


having your cake and eating it springs to mind

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Kojax, you make it sound very simple to numerically code a book that is over a thousand pages long and at the same time make it deliver a certain message while being written in perfect arabic language and having an unsurpassed poetic beauty. It is obviously not "human work".....

Lame example, but do you think, if I get a copy of Harry Potter, and count the number of times the word "Harry" occurs, it would be equal to the number of times the word "Voldemort" does?

Poetic beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was once approached by a Mormon missionary who asked me to read some passages from the Book of Mormon, then see if I didn't agree it was obviously inspired by God. I did read it but was not impressed. I thought it was kind of a lame attempt to imitate the Bible. As far as the Quran goes, it just seems fierce to me. Very fierce.

I think if you counted the number of occurrences of "Harry" then compared it to the occurrences of Voldemort, then if it didn't come out right you just counted the times Harry was used in the subjective case, or the objective case, or whatever, you might be able to make it work. If it didn't then you could dig up an old manuscript that had different numbers of occurrences. If you couldn't make that work you would go back and look for a different pair of words.

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)


also with your examples, i would have put "people who mislead" and "corrupt" together(oh numbers dont match, hmmm what else is can i use..... )

"tongue" could not only have fitted "sermon"(word wise) but could have also been put with "speaking publically", or "messangers" and thats just from the first block of your text, imagine if i had a book worth to play with

Its very easy to look for words that compliment, if i had the koran, or bible or harry potter(and was willing to waste my time) and listed all the words and times said, its not hard to find links to ones that mean something, humans are very good at doing this, and many words are very easy to interpret into whatever you wish to


Honestly thats not really impressive

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)


also with your examples, i would have put "people who mislead" and "corrupt" together(oh numbers dont match, hmmm what else is can i use..... )

"tongue" could not only have fitted "sermon"(word wise) but could have also been put with "speaking publically", or "messangers" and thats just from the first block of your text, imagine if i had a book worth to play with

Its very easy to look for words that compliment, if i had the koran, or bible or harry potter(and was willing to waste my time) and listed all the words and times said, its not hard to find links to ones that mean something, humans are very good at doing this, and many words are very easy to interpret into whatever you wish to


Honestly thats not really impressive

Boy, you really have bad grammar...skipped classes a lot?

The Q-ran was designed by Mary and Gabriel.

And now people are trying to understand the Q-ran........without M and A, right?

Wow.

Where did it come from, technicaly, or is that a can of worms?

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)


also with your examples, i would have put "people who mislead" and "corrupt" together(oh numbers dont match, hmmm what else is can i use..... )

"tongue" could not only have fitted "sermon"(word wise) but could have also been put with "speaking publically", or "messangers" and thats just from the first block of your text, imagine if i had a book worth to play with

Its very easy to look for words that compliment, if i had the koran, or bible or harry potter(and was willing to waste my time) and listed all the words and times said, its not hard to find links to ones that mean something, humans are very good at doing this, and many words are very easy to interpret into whatever you wish to


Honestly thats not really impressive

Boy, you really have bad grammar...skipped classes a lot?

ooh, going for the personal insult approach the grammar side isn't that important to me on a forum to be honest, maybe its another case of americans struggling with anything written outside of their borders , you never heard of regional dialect?


Is there an english to american translator online, that removes the extra vowels from words like colour, as well as removing sarcasm, dry humour and anything else that they struggle with

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)


also with your examples, i would have put "people who mislead" and "corrupt" together(oh numbers dont match, hmmm what else is can i use..... )

"tongue" could not only have fitted "sermon"(word wise) but could have also been put with "speaking publically", or "messangers" and thats just from the first block of your text, imagine if i had a book worth to play with

Its very easy to look for words that compliment, if i had the koran, or bible or harry potter(and was willing to waste my time) and listed all the words and times said, its not hard to find links to ones that mean something, humans are very good at doing this, and many words are very easy to interpret into whatever you wish to


Honestly thats not really impressive

Boy, you really have bad grammar...skipped classes a lot?

ooh, going for the personal insult approach the grammar side isn't that important to me on a forum to be honest, maybe its another case of americans struggling with anything written outside of their borders , you never heard of regional dialect?


Is there an english to american translator online, that removes the extra vowels from words like colour, as well as removing sarcasm, dry humour and anything else that they struggle with

I'm Jamaican-American, not fully American . So I can spell both ways: English and American, color and colour, center and centre. Anyway, you missed the intent of my post.

Edit: apparently you're more American than I am.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)

I Just wanted to share what I consider to be amazing facts with you people. I mean, I consider all of you people as friends of mine, if you will allow me, that is, even if we have different opinions and beliefs. It seems these days, though, one can't do anything without having their intentions questioned.
Captaincaveman If i was seeking my own reassurance, the last thing I'd do is ask a bunch of athiests and skeptics ( i.e most of the people in this forum).
Captaincaveman, I dunno if its just me, but you seem to find everything funny, considering the unusually large number of smiley faces in all your posts.

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)

I Just wanted to share what I consider to be amazing facts with you people. I mean, I consider all of you people as friends of mine, if you will allow me, that is, even if we have different opinions and beliefs. It seems these days, though, one can't do anything without having their intentions questioned.
Captaincaveman If i was seeking my own reassurance, the last thing I'd do is ask a bunch of athiests and skeptics ( i.e most of the people in this forum).
Captaincaveman, I dunno if its just me, but you seem to find everything funny, considering the unusually large number of smiley faces in all your posts.

:applause:
Edit: about the smileys, he's just being provocative/trying to make your ideas seem ridiculous: worthy only of jest; that's why I reply to everything he posts with smiley faces.

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

I Just wanted to share what I consider to be amazing facts with you people.

no offence intended, but some of us don't find numerology amazing - you're not the first and you definitely won't be the last to try and find meaning in an assorted number of coincidences

in statistics it's called the repeated sampling until you get the result you wanted all along

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)

I Just wanted to share what I consider to be amazing facts with you people. I mean, I consider all of you people as friends of mine, if you will allow me, that is, even if we have different opinions and beliefs. It seems these days, though, one can't do anything without having their intentions questioned.
Captaincaveman If i was seeking my own reassurance, the last thing I'd do is ask a bunch of athiests and skeptics ( i.e most of the people in this forum).
Captaincaveman, I dunno if its just me, but you seem to find everything funny, considering the unusually large number of smiley faces in all your posts.

to be honest yes i do find alot of these topics to be funny and worthy of the smilies, honestly lighten up


so thats grammar and smilies that seem to bother people, but looking for numerical links in religious books doesn't? no wonder the worlds like it is

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

The other thing i don't understand about these threads are, why bother?, if there is a god(which i doubt), then why are you constantly looking for re-assurance from posted these kinda threads?

Can i ask the reason for these posts? is it for your own reassurance? or an attempt at a recruting drive?(thats not meant aggresively, just a question, i just find religion funny, and "mines better than yours" even funnier personally)

I Just wanted to share what I consider to be amazing facts with you people. I mean, I consider all of you people as friends of mine, if you will allow me, that is, even if we have different opinions and beliefs. It seems these days, though, one can't do anything without having their intentions questioned.
Captaincaveman If i was seeking my own reassurance, the last thing I'd do is ask a bunch of athiests and skeptics ( i.e most of the people in this forum).
Captaincaveman, I dunno if its just me, but you seem to find everything funny, considering the unusually large number of smiley faces in all your posts.

:applause:
Edit: about the smileys, he's just being provocative/trying to make your ideas seem ridiculous: worthy only of jest; that's why I reply to everything he posts with smiley faces.

thanks for that analysis on my intent, actually i find the use of smilies important to show emotions, so some of my british dry humour isn't seen as aggression, ive seen so many comments of others on this forum and others taken the wrong way, purely because of how the recipient reads into it, hence the reason smilies exist

And with respect, yes i find the whole idea of a mythical creator leaving codes and coincidences in a text as proof of his wonder as ridiculous(teetering on madness), surely there would have been better ways for him/her to portray his/her own self importance than that

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Kojax, you make it sound very simple to numerically code a book that is over a thousand pages long and at the same time make it deliver a certain message while being written in perfect arabic language and having an unsurpassed poetic beauty. It is obviously not "human work".

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar pattern occured in the bible, saying as it, too, I believe, is a book sent by God

I'm not suggesting that it's easy to do. Just that there were enough determined and fanatical people present at Islam's beginning that they would be willing to expend the effort.

I mean, what you mentioned, the 365 mentionings of "day" (or whatever the word is in Arabic), is one of those nice touches people might add to a book just to make it feel that much more complete. The effort required would be tremendous, but ancient scribes were often willing to expend very ridiculous amounts of efforts on things like that.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Well, if you're interested in hearing my opinion on the psychological effects of belief in God, I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress. Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.

I think atheism is just a reaction to the presence of religion. Athiests chose to leave religion, just because they perceived a threat to their freedom of action, which makes them motivated to re-establish that freedom, without actually looking at whether what religion asks them to do is fair. ( I have a feeling that captaincaveman is now going to post a list of all the aggressive things that religion tells us to do). Or at least ponder the teachings of religion from a neutral perspective. It's like the teenage girl whose parents' disapproval of her boyfriend only drives her into his arms, even if he really wasn't a good guy, or the child who would wear anything except what her mother suggests, even if she was going to wear it before her mother suggested it. It's a recognised psychological state known as reactance ( for those of you who read NewScientist, there's an article about reactance in the may12 07 issue, p 56). The biggest proof for athiesm being a result of reactance is that before people had religion, they spent years seeking it. When they got religion, and didn't like the rules, they decided to rebel against them. It is obvious that they would dislike the rules after having the western ideology of freedom fed into their minds since childhood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that freedom is bad, I'm actually a profound supporter of freedom, but this is just an attempt to explain athiesm, which I consider to be a wierd phenomenon, seeing as it's a natural tendency for human beings to seek spiritual fulfilment.

Athiests say that it is science and logic that brings them to their conclusions about the absence of God, but I believe that this is just a cover for the true reason of athiesm which is blind rebellion. The first athiests were nothing more than rebels, and athiest popularisers associated athiesm with science to make it seem more modern and logical, and to portray religious people as backward irrational people. Unfortunately, many people adopted these ideas without really giving much thought to the other possibilities. I think that the notion of there being a relationship between science and athiesm is absurd. It is obvious that science doesn't prove anything about the absence of God, and scientific logical thinking and research only proves otherwise, by proving the psychological need for spiritual fulfilment.

Finally, I appologise to any athiest who I might have accidentally offended. This is just my opinion about the ideology of athiesm.

P.S before you eat me, please think about what I said.

s2b wrote:

I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress.
Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.
I think atheism is just a reaction to the presence of religion.
I'm not saying that freedom is bad, I'm actually a profound supporter of freedom, but this is just an attempt to explain athiesm, which I consider to be a wierd phenomenon.
I believe that this is just a cover for the true reason of athiesm which is blind rebellion.
I think that the notion of there being a relationship between science and athiesm is absurd.

You think and believe a lot, but it is pure speculation.

and scientific logical thinking and research only proves otherwise, by proving the psychological need for spiritual fulfilment.

So you conclude that if there is a psychological need for spiritual fulfilment, it proves that God exists? Is this a scientific reasoning?

Well i didn't think about it and come to the conclusion that there isn't a god, i just simply never believed that there was a god, there was no conscious decision about it. And if you wanted to be rebellious were i was growing up, you would have decided to be religious. As far as i am concerned people are naturally 'Atheists' and the only reason that people have a religion is because of how they were brought up.

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Well, if you're interested in hearing my opinion on the psychological effects of belief in God, I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress. Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.

Believe it or not, there have been various studies going on this very topic; many scientists believe this to be true.

finding a statistical analysis linking 2 conditions together doesn't necessarily imply a causal relationship, and does not explain why the relationship exists

+ should you wish to jump to conclusions, ask yourself : was A caused by B, B caused by A or both A and B caused by C ?

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Well, if you're interested in hearing my opinion on the psychological effects of belief in God, I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress. Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.

I think atheism is just a reaction to the presence of religion. Athiests chose to leave religion, just because they perceived a threat to their freedom of action, which makes them motivated to re-establish that freedom, without actually looking at whether what religion asks them to do is fair. ( I have a feeling that captaincaveman is now going to post a list of all the aggressive things that religion tells us to do). Or at least ponder the teachings of religion from a neutral perspective. It's like the teenage girl whose parents' disapproval of her boyfriend only drives her into his arms, even if he really wasn't a good guy, or the child who would wear anything except what her mother suggests, even if she was going to wear it before her mother suggested it. It's a recognised psychological state known as reactance ( for those of you who read NewScientist, there's an article about reactance in the may12 07 issue, p 56). The biggest proof for athiesm being a result of reactance is that before people had religion, they spent years seeking it. When they got religion, and didn't like the rules, they decided to rebel against them. It is obvious that they would dislike the rules after having the western ideology of freedom fed into their minds since childhood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that freedom is bad, I'm actually a profound supporter of freedom, but this is just an attempt to explain athiesm, which I consider to be a wierd phenomenon, seeing as it's a natural tendency for human beings to seek spiritual fulfilment.

Athiests say that it is science and logic that brings them to their conclusions about the absence of God, but I believe that this is just a cover for the true reason of athiesm which is blind rebellion. The first athiests were nothing more than rebels, and athiest popularisers associated athiesm with science to make it seem more modern and logical, and to portray religious people as backward irrational people. Unfortunately, many people adopted these ideas without really giving much thought to the other possibilities. I think that the notion of there being a relationship between science and athiesm is absurd. It is obvious that science doesn't prove anything about the absence of God, and scientific logical thinking and research only proves otherwise, by proving the psychological need for spiritual fulfilment.

Finally, I appologise to any athiest who I might have accidentally offended. This is just my opinion about the ideology of athiesm.

P.S before you eat me, please think about what I said.

thanks again for the massive assumptions youve made on me, firstly the reason i am an athiest is nothing to do with "reactance", we were taught religion at school(basically an hour a week as religious studies) and it never meant anything more to me than stories.

Ive never had religion in my life, ive never had to maintain to strict rules or had them put onto me to react against. Sure as a kid i'd believe it God in a general term(eg tooth fairy kinda way), but not as any organised religion.

This belief in god was to me exactly the same as the tooth fairy or father christmas, as soon as i got to a period in my life i dropped(excuse the termanology) the childish stories and fantasys of my innocence and grew up


So no, this isn't a reaction to rules or the presence of religion, i dont believe in the fantasys and all the magical mumbo-jumbo that goes with religion in my adolencent or adult life


I feel your logic is very weak and narrow minded on this subject. you seem to assume that every athiest has been turned away from religion, or as you say "rebel", whereas a massive percentage were never religious, never has any need for religion and sees nothing more than stories

many people have no need for god or religion and are happy in a godless world, that includes most of my work collegues, friends, family and peers.

Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Well, if you're interested in hearing my opinion on the psychological effects of belief in God, I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress. Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.

Believe it or not, there have been various studies going on this very topic; many scientists believe this to be true.

there is also many studies that show that the reduction in stress, anxiety and depression is also linked to many other areas of someones life, happily married, many friends, healthy sex life etc etc


One massive point your missing, is that athiests DONT BELIEVE, so this means its irrelavent to if this is true or not. Are you suggesting athiests can somehow choose to believe?

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

thanks again for the massive assumptions youve made on me, firstly the reason i am an athiest is nothing to do with "reactance", we were taught religion at school(basically an hour a week as religious studies) and it never meant anything more to me than stories.

Ive never had religion in my life, ive never had to maintain to strict rules or had them put onto me to react against. Sure as a kid i'd believe it God in a general term(eg tooth fairy kinda way), but not as any organised religion.

This belief in god was to me exactly the same as the tooth fairy or father christmas, as soon as i got to a period in my life i dropped(excuse the termanology) the childish stories and fantasys of my innocence and grew up


So no, this isn't a reaction to rules or the presence of religion, i dont believe in the fantasys and all the magical mumbo-jumbo that goes with religion in my adolencent or adult life


I feel your logic is very weak and narrow minded on this subject. you seem to assume that every athiest has been turned away from religion, or as you say "rebel", whereas a massive percentage were never religious, never has any need for religion and sees nothing more than stories

many people have no need for god or religion and are happy in a godless world, that includes most of my work collegues, friends, family and peers.

captaincaveman, you know that in choosing to follow any religion you will be compelled to following certain rules, which of course, you don't want to do. So even if you weren't originally religious, you are well aware of the fact that religion has rules, and are clearly irritated by the fact that many people choose to follow these rules and beliefs, and I deduced that from many of your posts that show outright hatred towards religion (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, if you had read carefully through my previous post, you would have realised that I didn't assume that every athiest has been turned away from religion. What I explained was the initial rise of athiesm, when the majority of people were religious, so people decided to rebel against the rules. I then said that others began to adopt athiest ideology, just because it has been made to look "cooler" and more "grown-up" as you so rightfully said. Athiesm now is obviously quite popular, so athiests now are not rebelling against anything.

captaincaveman, I have not made any assumptions against you, this is just my opinion on the ideology of athiesm.

Captaincaveman, you and your fellow athiests might be leading happy godless lives, but you are terrified of death, and you are terrified of disease and you can't live without getting drunk.

By the way, reactance happens subconciously as well, so you wont really know whether or not your being an athiest has anything to do with it. With you, especially, I very much suspect that it is pure reactance, because you don't seem to ever present any logic in your posts apart from that old tooth fairy story ( no offence intended), whereas some others in this forum seem to have thought it out and in their case, hatred towards religion isn't so apparent (e.g MarnixR).

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

...you and your fellow athiests might be leading happy godless lives, but you are terrified of death, and you are terrified of disease and you can't live without getting drunk.

a rather sweeping statement ? i'm sure atheists are as diverse in their attitudes as are theists

i am an atheist, and while it is true that i lead a happy godless life, i'm not afraid of death (even though i'm probably closer to it than you are), i'm not afraid of disease and it's been a long time since i've been drunk - having a drink should be fun + that includes the morning after

Captaincaveman, you and your fellow athiests might be leading happy godless lives, but you are terrified of death, and you are terrified of disease and you can't live without getting drunk.

Now your making massive assumptions

firstly i have no fear of death, why because i believe when you die, the lights go out and thats it. theres nothing to fear from that, infact i personally find that a comfort


secondly what makes you think im terrified of disease? again, it will either kill me and....(see comment one), or it wont, i may suffer, but i put my hopes into the medical profession, and my own personal strenth, and that ofmy family. Ive seen a couple of fanatical christians die from cancer and they were not at piece at all


and thirdly, i rarely drink and when do, in moderation

right after that total wrong assumptions about me, onto your comments

captaincaveman, you know that in choosing to follow any religion you will be compelled to following certain rules, which of course, you don't want to do. So even if you weren't originally religious, you are well aware of the fact that religion has rules, and are clearly irritated by the fact that many people choose to follow these rules and beliefs, and I deduced that from many of your posts that show outright hatred towards religion (correct me if I'm wrong).

Again you have no grasp of the fact that ATHIESTS DONT BELIEVE, so rules are irrelavent otherwise i wouldn't be an athiest but a non practicing believer(which i am not)

I dont have hatred towards religion, if you look at my recent comments, i have actually said that i find it very funny and like a child security blanket for the softer religions and in the case of islam, just purely over paranoid, controlling and very cult like in their tactics to enlist

Anyway, if you had read carefully through my previous post, you would have realised that I didn't assume that every athiest has been turned away from religion. What I explained was the initial rise of athiesm, when the majority of people were religious, so people decided to rebel against the rules. I then said that others began to adopt athiest ideology, just because it has been made to look "cooler" and more "grown-up" as you so rightfully said. Athiesm now is obviously quite popular, so athiests now are not rebelling against anything.

Now this is really funny too, so now you are saying many athiests are just doing this to fit in and be "cool", i'd say a really high percentage of younger people in the uk, dont actually mention or even think about religion that much and in my life and that of my peers, i dont think it really was an issue

By the way, reactance happens subconciously as well, so you wont really know whether or not your being an athiest has anything to do with it. With you, especially, I very much suspect that it is pure reactance, because you don't seem to ever present any logic in your posts apart from that old tooth fairy story ( no offence intended), whereas some others in this forum seem to have thought it out and in their case, hatred towards religion isn't so apparent

god you really are in deep, so your making the accusation that i am an athiest just to react against religious people and rebel

Why cant some theists understand that for a growing percentage of the population, god is just an outdated practice that plays no part in their lives and never has.

Why is that me rebelling against religion???


Another thing, why cant you believe that i and many other athiests TRUELY believe there is no god and never has been

richard dawkins - I think faith can be a great evil, because faith means belief without evidence. Belief without evidence is belief which is unshakeable by argument. And belief that is unshakeable by argument can be used as a justification for all sorts of things

richard dawkins - Religion should not be exempt from critism. There's an urgency to deal with religion as it has political power and influence - it's important that it stops getting a free ride

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Now your making massive assumptions

firstly i have no fear of death, why because i believe when you die, the lights go out and thats it. theres nothing to fear from that, infact i personally find that a comfort


secondly what makes you think im terrified of disease? again, it will either kill me and....(see comment one), or it wont, i may suffer, but i put my hopes into the medical profession, and my own personal strenth, and that ofmy family. Ive seen a couple of fanatical christians die from cancer and they were not at piece at all


and thirdly, i rarely drink and when do, in moderation

right after that total wrong assumptions about me, onto your comments

Alright, so maybe I have made massive assumptions about you, but this is only the image that your western media conveys.

Again you have no grasp of the fact that ATHIESTS DONT BELIEVE, so rules are irrelavent otherwise i wouldn't be an athiest but a non practicing believer(which i am not)

I dont have hatred towards religion, if you look at my recent comments, i have actually said that i find it very funny and like a child security blanket for the softer religions and in the case of islam, just purely over paranoid, controlling and very cult like in their tactics to enlist

Now this is really funny too, so now you are saying many athiests are just doing this to fit in and be "cool", i'd say a really high percentage of younger people in the uk, dont actually mention or even think about religion that much and in my life and that of my peers, i dont think it really was an issue

god you really are in deep, so your making the accusation that i am an athiest just to react against religious people and rebel

Why cant some theists understand that for a growing percentage of the population, god is just an outdated practice that plays no part in their lives and never has.

Why is that me rebelling against religion???


Another thing, why cant you believe that i and many other athiests TRUELY believe there is no god and never has been

Every human is born a believer, and the evidence for that is that whenever any human is in great peril, and perceives the closeness of death, his thoughts turn to God, and all his arrogance melts away. I once read a book for by an old arab philosopher discussing whether a man born alone in a forest ( sort of like Tarzan) would believe in God, and he concluded that he certainly would. This makes belief in God instinctive and primordial.

In choosing not to believe in God, you are going against your own human nature. Therefore, i cannot possibly believe that any athiest truly believes that there is no God and that there never has been.

richard dawkins - I think faith can be a great evil, because faith means belief without evidence. Belief without evidence is belief which is unshakeable by argument. And belief that is unshakeable by argument can be used as a justification for all sorts of things

Richard Dawkins..."athiests' god" as I like to call him...
The flaw in Dawkins' reasoning is obvious. He somehow failed to consider what it is that people believe in...If they have faith in a God who supports peace and development, which is the case with most religions, even if their faith is without evidence, then their faith is the farthest thing from great evil.


MarnixR wrote:

a rather sweeping statement ? i'm sure atheists are as diverse in their attitudes as are theists

i am an atheist, and while it is true that i lead a happy godless life, i'm not afraid of death (even though i'm probably closer to it than you are), i'm not afraid of disease and it's been a long time since i've been drunk - having a drink should be fun + that includes the morning after

This was truly a very general statement, and probably untrue in many cases, but I have reason to believe that what I said is true in many cases.
Whe I look at your soldiers who go out to war, and they are supposed to be a country's bravest men, they are covered from head to toe with bullet proof material and are laden with all the latest weapons, and yet they still run away when a rock is thrown at them. It hardly looks like they're not afraid of death to me...

Every human is born a believer, and the evidence for that is that whenever any human is in great peril, and perceives the closeness of death, his thoughts turn to God, and all his arrogance melts away. I once read a book for by an old arab philosopher discussing whether a man born alone in a forest ( sort of like Tarzan) would believe in God, and he concluded that he certainly would. This makes belief in God instinctive and primordial.

In choosing not to believe in God, you are going against your own human nature. Therefore, i cannot possibly believe that any athiest truly believes that there is no God and that there never has been.

Im sorry but again, your making wild assumptions. I dont believe every human is born a believer, do you have scientific fact to back that up? Ive had two serious accidents, one of which was a major motorcycle accident, the last thing on my mind was god, or religion, similar things have happened in other parts of my life, and the only thing that my mind turns to(except the survival issues), is my family

You quote of the book is from one persons conclusions based on his beliefs and cannot be called anything more than one persons opinion, so no i don't believe im going against human nature, im not arrogant enough to raise humans up to be anything more than they actually are, Animals at the top of the food chain

Fair enough, you cant believe that any athiest truely believes there is no god, but that doesn't mean it isn't true

I personally believe that atheism is evolution of the human mind through the understanding of the world around us and i personally find it hard to understand anyone with religious beliefs

My mother in-law is a devout christian, who has suffered with numerous chronic diseases througout her life, died 3 times and in constant pain, neding morphine daily, where-as my athiest family have suffered none, is this the "free gift" for subscribing to this partical club called religion?

This was truly a very general statement, and probably untrue in many cases, but I have reason to believe that what I said is true in many cases.
Whe I look at your soldiers who go out to war, and they are supposed to be a country's bravest men, they are covered from head to toe with bullet proof material and are laden with all the latest weapons, and yet they still run away when a rock is thrown at them. It hardly looks like they're not afraid of death to me...

soldiers who go to war, religious or not have the same fear when faced with the risk of death, thats human instinct to protect themselves and is seen in every part of nature, there is a difference between fearing dying and fearing death.

athiest and theists fear death/want to stay alive in the same way, a man who doesn't fear this(religious or otherwise), i personally feel is mentally or pyschologically disturbed

are you saying all theists are happy to put themselves in harms way, and confront an early death with a smile on their face, i think not

Richard Dawkins..."athiests' god" as I like to call him...
The flaw in Dawkins' reasoning is obvious. He somehow failed to consider what it is that people believe in...If they have faith in a God who supports peace and development, which is the case with most religions, even if their faith is without evidence, then their faith is the farthest thing from great evil.

athiest god? explain?, i think your definition of god is confused, just because someone respects some of his views, how does that warrant godleness?

with the dawkins quote youve missed the major word "CAN", he said faith CAN be a great evil, not IS. This is true when you look at some of the atrocities commited in the name of religion

One thing i really like about dawkins is that, with many theists, he must be close to the truth, to get the abuse throw at him for expressing his views and you cannot abuse the views of an athiest and at the same time expect respect for your own views

What about feral children ?, as far as i know they don't have a belief or concept of a god/religion.

scientist-to-be:
this might help you to understand what an atheist is
posted up by susan in another thread.

Originally Posted by susan

an Atheist is not something that you so much are. Rather, it's something you are from a Theistic perspective. Ultimately the word only says what you're not, that the term "Theist" is not applicable to you.
the one, true definition of 'Atheist' is 'without belief'.

A-Theist.

The "A" prefix means without/non/aint got no.
As in....
Asexual=having no sex or sexual organs.(not a belief theres no sex organs)
Amoral=without moral.(not a belief theres no morals)
Apolitical=not political.(not a belief theres no politics)
Atypical=not typical.(not a belief there not typical)
Asymmetric=not symmetrical.(not a belief theres no symmetry)
Atheist=not theist.(not a belief theres no god)

thats IT. no other assumptions can be made from it.

and this

Originally Posted by susan

none of us are born with a belief in a god, we have no knowledge of god until it's indoctrinated into us in childhood, we are all born A-Theist atheist see above post with explanation. you cannot choose that which is the normal mind set, it's yours regardless but you can adopt another, be it forced on you as a child or you make a choice, but most of the time it's the former, unfortunately this is a form of child abuse putting the fear of death, from an all powerful being, pretty scary stuff for a child, and thus abusive.

and this from me

an atheist is simply someone who does not posit a god-concept to explain anything or solve any problem
atheists do not invoke any concept of god to explain any phenomenon or solve any philosophical conundrum, and they see no compelling reason to.

an atheist has no belief I repeat that no believe in god/gods, he also has no belief in fairies and elves etc.., thats not to say that any of those things couldn't exist, it is just simply unreasonable to have a belief in such things. atheist, simply lack belief.
and yes I know I'm repeating myself, but thats just to get it understood.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Every human is born a believer, and the evidence for that is that whenever any human is in great peril, and perceives the closeness of death, his thoughts turn to God, and all his arrogance melts away. I once read a book for by an old arab philosopher discussing whether a man born alone in a forest ( sort of like Tarzan) would believe in God, and he concluded that he certainly would. This makes belief in God instinctive and primordial.

In choosing not to believe in God, you are going against your own human nature. Therefore, i cannot possibly believe that any athiest truly believes that there is no God and that there never has been.

Im sorry but again, your making wild assumptions. I dont believe every human is born a believer, do you have scientific fact to back that up? Ive had two serious accidents, one of which was a major motorcycle accident, the last thing on my mind was god, or religion, similar things have happened in other parts of my life, and the only thing that my mind turns to(except the survival issues), is my family

You quote of the book is from one persons conclusions based on his beliefs and cannot be called anything more than one persons opinion, so no i don't believe im going against human nature, im not arrogant enough to raise humans up to be anything more than they actually are, Animals at the top of the food chain

Fair enough, you cant believe that any athiest truely believes there is no god, but that doesn't mean it isn't true

I personally believe that atheism is evolution of the human mind through the understanding of the world around us and i personally find it hard to understand anyone with religious beliefs

My mother in-law is a devout christian, who has suffered with numerous chronic diseases througout her life, died 3 times and in constant pain, neding morphine daily, where-as my athiest family have suffered none, is this the "free gift" for subscribing to this partical club called religion?

Now that's very funny...so you simply made a relation between religion and "free gifts", just because you know one religious person who is ill??
There are people who are religious and healthy, you know
by the way, just out of curiosity, how did she die 3 times?

Give me some time, and I'll find you scientific proof.

soldiers who go to war, religious or not have the same fear when faced with the risk of death, thats human instinct to protect themselves and is seen in every part of nature, there is a difference between fearing dying and fearing death.

athiest and theists fear death/want to stay alive in the same way, a man who doesn't fear this(religious or otherwise), i personally feel is mentally or pyschologically disturbed

are you saying all theists are happy to put themselves in harms way, and confront an early death with a smile on their face, i think not

You're right, noone in their right mind would deliberately put themselves in harms way. What I am saying is that that fear of death, I've noticed, is much more in the west to the extent of paranoia in some cases. Eg. All that fuss that was made about the Atlanta lawyer who had TB and flew on a commercial plane, when he was not even contagious.

Richard Dawkins..."athiests' god" as I like to call him...
The flaw in Dawkins' reasoning is obvious. He somehow failed to consider what it is that people believe in...If they have faith in a God who supports peace and development, which is the case with most religions, even if their faith is without evidence, then their faith is the farthest thing from great evil.

athiest god? explain?, i think your definition of god is confused, just because someone respects some of his views, how does that warrant godleness?

It is just a sarcastic expression...

with the dawkins quote youve missed the major word "CAN", he said faith CAN be a great evil, not IS. This is true when you look at some of the atrocities commited in the name of religion

Well you know what, that doesn't make his quote any more reasonable. Anything in the world CAN be a great evil...a book CAN be a great evil if you use its pointy corners as a weapon!!!

Cat1981 wrote:

What about feral children ?, as far as i know they don't have a belief or concept of a god/religion.

What are feral children?

Originally Posted by geezer

scientist-to-be:
this might help you to understand what an atheist is
posted up by susan in another thread.

Originally Posted by susan

an Atheist is not something that you so much are. Rather, it's something you are from a Theistic perspective. Ultimately the word only says what you're not, that the term "Theist" is not applicable to you.
the one, true definition of 'Atheist' is 'without belief'.

A-Theist.

The "A" prefix means without/non/aint got no.
As in....
Asexual=having no sex or sexual organs.(not a belief theres no sex organs)
Amoral=without moral.(not a belief theres no morals)
Apolitical=not political.(not a belief theres no politics)
Atypical=not typical.(not a belief there not typical)
Asymmetric=not symmetrical.(not a belief theres no symmetry)
Atheist=not theist.(not a belief theres no god)

thats IT. no other assumptions can be made from it.

and this

Originally Posted by susan

none of us are born with a belief in a god, we have no knowledge of god until it's indoctrinated into us in childhood, we are all born A-Theist atheist see above post with explanation. you cannot choose that which is the normal mind set, it's yours regardless but you can adopt another, be it forced on you as a child or you make a choice, but most of the time it's the former, unfortunately this is a form of child abuse putting the fear of death, from an all powerful being, pretty scary stuff for a child, and thus abusive.

and this from me

an atheist is simply someone who does not posit a god-concept to explain anything or solve any problem
atheists do not invoke any concept of god to explain any phenomenon or solve any philosophical conundrum, and they see no compelling reason to.

an atheist has no belief I repeat that no believe in god/gods, he also has no belief in fairies and elves etc.., thats not to say that any of those things couldn't exist, it is just simply unreasonable to have a belief in such things. atheist, simply lack belief.
and yes I know I'm repeating myself, but thats just to get it understood.

Thanks! NOW I understand what an athiest is :sarcasm:
You know, geezer, I'm not that stupid...

You're right, noone in their right mind would deliberately put themselves in harms way. What I am saying is that that fear of death, I've noticed, is much more in the west to the extent of paranoia in some cases. Eg. All that fuss that was made about the Atlanta lawyer who had TB and flew on a commercial plane, when he was not even contagious.

What!!!! lol, the tb case is exactly a way of potentially putting yourself in harms way, one truth in the west is we haven't got the mind set of suicide bombers and we try to keep ourselves heathy and alive wherever possible, thats just common sense, not paranoia

Well you know what, that doesn't make his quote any more reasonable. Anything in the world CAN be a great evil...a book CAN be a great evil if you use its pointy corners as a weapon!!!

youve totally mis-understood the dawkins quote, your missing the crital point

"Belief without evidence is belief which is unshakeable by argument"

As Humans were afraid of death:Afterlife, we need (or needed) a Higher leader that we can all unite for, we needed a protective parent that can protect us till death.
Then a moral code was needed, it was created wth the threat that one of the 'perks' above will be lost if the Laws were breached.
SIMPLE HUMAN PSYCHE

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

You're right, noone in their right mind would deliberately put themselves in harms way. What I am saying is that that fear of death, I've noticed, is much more in the west to the extent of paranoia in some cases. Eg. All that fuss that was made about the Atlanta lawyer who had TB and flew on a commercial plane, when he was not even contagious.

What!!!! lol, the tb case is exactly a way of potentially putting yourself in harms way, one truth in the west is we haven't got the mind set of suicide bombers and we try to keep ourselves heathy and alive wherever possible, thats just common sense, not paranoia

Well, we don't have the mindset of suicide bombers either, but at least we don't go worrying after we shake hands with someone, and we don't go cleaning supermarket trolley handlebars!

Well you know what, that doesn't make his quote any more reasonable. Anything in the world CAN be a great evil...a book CAN be a great evil if you use its pointy corners as a weapon!!!

youve totally mis-understood the dawkins quote, your missing the crital point

"Belief without evidence is belief which is unshakeable by argument"

Which we wouldn't really need to shake by argument if that belief made the believer beneficial to society, so again, it goes back to belief in what.

Well, we don't have the mindset of suicide bombers either, but at least we don't go worrying after we shake hands with someone, and we don't go cleaning supermarket trolley handlebars!

funnily enough, neither do we , unless your having a dig at certain members of many countries around the world who suffer from that affliction

where have you been getting your facts? "bin laden's big book of infidel facts"

Which we wouldn't really need to shake by argument if that belief made the believer beneficial to society, so again, it goes back to belief in what.

I really don't think you understand the quote

I always thought of it the other way around: religeous people fear death more, thats why they 'Insure' that they live happily after death.
And fear of disease is everywhere to be fair, even in the arab world, the avian bird flu had (or has) a strong effect over here.

I agree biohazard, i think your signature also makes a very valid point

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

funnily enough, neither do we , unless your having a dig at certain members of many countries around the world who suffer from that affliction

where have you been getting your facts? "bin laden's big book of infidel facts"

lol! " bin laden's big book of infidel facts", lol, you really have a sense of humour (no sarcasm intended)
Actually, I watched the cleaning supermarket trolley handlebar thing on "good morning America".

I really don't think you understand the quote

I think I do.

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

funnily enough, neither do we , unless your having a dig at certain members of many countries around the world who suffer from that affliction

where have you been getting your facts? "bin laden's big book of infidel facts"

lol! " bin laden's big book of infidel facts", lol, you really have a sense of humour (no sarcasm intended)
Actually, I watched the cleaning supermarket trolley handlebar thing on "good morning America".

I really don't think you understand the quote

I think I do.

well the supermarket thing isn't an issue with us brits

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Actually, I watched the cleaning supermarket trolley handlebar thing on "good morning America".

i suppose 1 obsessive makes for "better" telly than the thousands of normal people

STB, u do really waste time with them,..let them believe what they want to believe..
for some ppl here misunderstanding The holy quran is not astrological book,..god supports evidences for his existance with universe visual evidence in the universe..etc.
so to believe this or not it's not the case we didnt ask u to,..but what can not be denied thats there are some scientific facts should lead your small brains to the right believe.like when Quran talked about the stages of the first fetus creation and forming,..before science even heard or know about it..one of your scientists famous in embryo science (don't remember his name) but he got a book like reference for fetus creature science for students..he was amazed of reading the description of fetus formation stages descibed in the holy quran with this rate of accuracy..and he wrote that in his reference book..
so the issue is not to make you believe , there are already people who does..but to show u these facts..

Silex7 I think you take this too personally, Atheists in General don't like to believe in any 'Holy Book', and I heard about the fetus thing, I'm sick of hearing it being used as an excuse (and only one left apparently) to link islam with science. Easily can be explained by disecting other pregnant mammals. Also arabic is a very vague language in its meanings of words.

and for more promoting to this subject,..watch this flash video

http://www.what-is-islam.org
and check for the scientific proofs for mathematical miracles..

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by scientist-to-be

Captaincaveman, if you think religion is so stupid, then why do you insist on posting in the religion forum? Don't you have anything better to do?

actually i find religion interesting from a social, political and psychology point of view, but i find some of these posts a bit fanatical and bordering on madness

Im not doing this out spite, or to wind anyone up, its just my opinion as an athiest and based on my strong dis-belief in the mystical and magical

I'm just interested in the psycological side of it, i dont post on all threads in the religious section unless i feel its way, way out there and needs commenting on

Well, if you're interested in hearing my opinion on the psychological effects of belief in God, I think that those who don't have faith in God i.e athiests, are more prone to various psychological illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and stress. Athiests are denying themselves any type of spiritual fulfilment, which I believe, is vital for general health and well-being.

I think atheism is just a reaction to the presence of religion. Athiests chose to leave religion, just because they perceived a threat to their freedom of action, which makes them motivated to re-establish that freedom, without actually looking at whether what religion asks them to do is fair. ( I have a feeling that captaincaveman is now going to post a list of all the aggressive things that religion tells us to do). Or at least ponder the teachings of religion from a neutral perspective. It's like the teenage girl whose parents' disapproval of her boyfriend only drives her into his arms, even if he really wasn't a good guy, or the child who would wear anything except what her mother suggests, even if she was going to wear it before her mother suggested it. It's a recognised psychological state known as reactance ( for those of you who read NewScientist, there's an article about reactance in the may12 07 issue, p 56). The biggest proof for athiesm being a result of reactance is that before people had religion, they spent years seeking it. When they got religion, and didn't like the rules, they decided to rebel against them. It is obvious that they would dislike the rules after having the western ideology of freedom fed into their minds since childhood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that freedom is bad, I'm actually a profound supporter of freedom, but this is just an attempt to explain athiesm, which I consider to be a wierd phenomenon, seeing as it's a natural tendency for human beings to seek spiritual fulfilment.

Athiests say that it is science and logic that brings them to their conclusions about the absence of God, but I believe that this is just a cover for the true reason of athiesm which is blind rebellion. The first athiests were nothing more than rebels, and athiest popularisers associated athiesm with science to make it seem more modern and logical, and to portray religious people as backward irrational people. Unfortunately, many people adopted these ideas without really giving much thought to the other possibilities. I think that the notion of there being a relationship between science and athiesm is absurd. It is obvious that science doesn't prove anything about the absence of God, and scientific logical thinking and research only proves otherwise, by proving the psychological need for spiritual fulfilment.

Finally, I appologise to any athiest who I might have accidentally offended. This is just my opinion about the ideology of athiesm.

P.S before you eat me, please think about what I said.

What a load of rubbish!