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Thread: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL.

  1. #1 Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
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    We should all be aware that moral codes do not keep up with the world. For example, the bible says nothing about not sewing mines in war or spreading anti-personel mines that children would find later on and have a leg or two blown off. Of course, they did not have mines in biblical days, but that is the very point! The Biblical morality is out of date.

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Instead, there are some 600 laws or rules pertaining to old Temple rituals and a cubit measuring system.

    Yet, we are told to "turn the other cheek when struck." Would that have enabled us to defeat Nazism?

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    We need a much better moral code or system than that! Society is in bad shape because there is no real moral system any more. The old one is all but worthless. We can change all that!

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com


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  3. #2 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    We should all be aware that moral codes do not keep up with the world. For example, the bible says nothing about not sewing mines in war or spreading anti-personel mines that children would find later on and have a leg or two blown off. Of course, they did not have mines in biblical days, but that is the very point! The Biblical morality is out of date.

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Instead, there are some 600 laws or rules pertaining to old Temple rituals and a cubit measuring system.

    Yet, we are told to "turn the other cheek when struck." Would that have enabled us to defeat Nazism?

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    We need a much better moral code or system than that! Society is in bad shape because there is no real moral system any more. The old one is all but worthless. We can change all that!

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com


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  4. #3  
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    Charles, perhaps its because im from a different country but what about the rule of law ? Or does religion play a major part of peoples lives over in the US ?
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  5. #4 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    No where does the Bible "promote" slavery. This chapter tells that the Sabeans will come over to the Israelites "In Chains". Quite honestly, I don't know what that means. I do take it literally, but I don't see anything in the Bible that says, "go therefore, and make slaves" which is how you made it sound.

    you said (without providing a biblical quote):
    "Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil."

    You are completely and uterly wrong. I can't tell if you are trying to smeer the bible and christianity or if you are sadly misinformed.

    Here is the actual passage (NIV):
    7 I form the light and create darkness,
    I bring prosperity and create disaster;
    I, the LORD, do all these things.

    When the Lord is talking about "disaster" (which is much different than disaster) He is saying this because he is preparing to raise up a New King in Israel which was in exile. He is saying that He has control over everything and that through Cyrus and Israel, all nations would know that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the One True God.

    Why did He say this? Not to boast - and who cares if that was the only reason (if He is who He says He is - He's God and can do and say all things!) But, why did He say this? So that all Nations would come to a saving knowledge of His power through the use of His mighty power - overturning powerhouse Nations with an exiled and tiny Israel.

    Just my $.02
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  6. #5 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    No where does the Bible "promote" slavery. This chapter tells that the Sabeans will come over to the Israelites "In Chains". Quite honestly, I don't know what that means. I do take it literally, but I don't see anything in the Bible that says, "go therefore, and make slaves" which is how you made it sound.

    you said (without providing a biblical quote):
    "Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil."

    You are completely and uterly wrong. I can't tell if you are trying to smeer the bible and christianity or if you are sadly misinformed.

    Here is the actual passage (NIV):
    7 I form the light and create darkness,
    I bring prosperity and create disaster;
    I, the LORD, do all these things.

    When the Lord is talking about "disaster" (which is much different than disaster) He is saying this because he is preparing to raise up a New King in Israel which was in exile. He is saying that He has control over everything and that through Cyrus and Israel, all nations would know that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the One True God.

    Why did He say this? Not to boast - and who cares if that was the only reason (if He is who He says He is - He's God and can do and say all things!) But, why did He say this? So that all Nations would come to a saving knowledge of His power through the use of His mighty power - overturning powerhouse Nations with an exiled and tiny Israel.

    Just my $.02
    Hence,
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  7. #6 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    We should all be aware that moral codes do not keep up with the world. For example, the bible says nothing about not sewing mines in war or spreading anti-personel mines that children would find later on and have a leg or two blown off. Of course, they did not have mines in biblical days, but that is the very point! The Biblical morality is out of date.

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Instead, there are some 600 laws or rules pertaining to old Temple rituals and a cubit measuring system.

    Yet, we are told to "turn the other cheek when struck." Would that have enabled us to defeat Nazism?

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    We need a much better moral code or system than that! Society is in bad shape because there is no real moral system any more. The old one is all but worthless. We can change all that!

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    morality is a subtle thing to discern, mainly because our materialistic tendencies can hijack our intelligence and logic and screw any set of laws to our personal advantage (now if you want to talk of top heavy law systems, just take a gander at criminal system of practically any country, secular or otherwise, you care to mention .....)

    if the christians appear immoral its only because their numbers are becoming immoral just like anyone else ..... namely rejecting the standard recommendations for getting free from (or the cautions about getting into) lust, envy, wrath and the like
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  8. #7  
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    I think most of the barbaric rules of ancient monothiestic religions come from the fact the people God was trying to instruct were insanely barbaric.

    "Thok no understand. Why it bad kill buddy Bok and marry him wife? But Thok have big club!! Big club mean Thok deserve Bok's wife!!!"

    You see where I'm going with this? Moses allowed Isrealites to keep slaves - why? Because the idea of not having slaves was just a little bit too advanced for those primative idiots. It was better to settle for just putting some limits on how slaves were treated than to accomplish nothing at all.
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    Anyone that has read even small portions of Biblical text understands that it does not implicitly state Do's and Don'ts for modern day life.

    Meaning, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not have an abortion".

    If you read the Bible in context it is easy to see that there is a sanctity and regard for life. That plus the fact that we are not to murder is a good reason, as a Christian, to oppose abortion.

    Let me bring this a little closer to home (for me). I don't want to come accross like I'm preaching. I have an issue (as I'm sure many men do) with lust and a desire to look at pornography. The Bible never expressly says "Thou shalt not looketh at porn" - haha - but it does talk directly about Lust. Christ even said that if you think lustfully about a woman it is as if you had been with her (since the state of your heart is basically the same). So, from this, I can believe that Pornography is innapropriate and something that I shouldn't take part in. Unfortunately, "The Christian Church" in America comes accross as very judgemental and legalistic, because so many Christians will simply tell an "non-believer" that the thing they are doing is wrong and won't tell them and they are in the same boat in one fashion or the other. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" - That means me and you and everybody - mr. legalistic Pastor. Hope this makes sense to everyone. It's about love and relationship - from this the "do's and don'ts " will flow. But it's about relationship first. First with God and second with others.


    I think that if you look at the Bible in this way, you can find answers to all of life's questions - even the ones that the Bible does not expressly deal with.
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  10. #9 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
    Forum Masters Degree geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    No where does the Bible "promote" slavery. This chapter tells that the Sabeans will come over to the Israelites "In Chains". Quite honestly, I don't know what that means. I do take it literally, but I don't see anything in the Bible that says, "go therefore, and make slaves" which is how you made it sound.
    you need to read your bible a again.
    NIV Exodus 21:2
    "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

    21:3
    If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.

    21:4
    If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

    21:5
    "But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'

    21:6
    then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

    21:7
    "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.

    21:8
    If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.

    and

    21:16
    "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

    and

    21:20
    "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,

    21:21
    but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    you said (without providing a biblical quote):
    "Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil."

    You are completely and utterly wrong. I can't tell if you are trying to smeer the bible and christianity or if you are sadly misinformed.

    Here is the actual passage (NIV):
    7 I form the light and create darkness,
    I bring prosperity and create disaster;
    I, the LORD, do all these things.
    no he not wrong but you are.
    it's dependant on the version, and the most common version used is the KJV.
    KJV 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    or the RSV 7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

    your version says Disaster, the next says Evil, and the third says Woe.

    before you make an arguement in future reread your bible and study a few other versions else you will always get egg on your face.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Ok,

    I will admit that I do not have all of the answers, and accordingly, was searching the net for an article that would help to articulate my stance on the Bible and slavery.

    here is a link to one article that I came accross: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

    here is what it says:

    The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.

    The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – many slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrew were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms of slavery. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

    Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside-out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God, receiving His salvation – God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, he will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.


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    Hope this helps to clear things up. From what I've read and learned about the God of Christianity, repect for persons is very important. Even the scripture references that you provided proved my point that God is concernced with all of his creation. These writings were given for the proper and fair treatment of slaves by masters in a time when slavery was widely accepted - and far different than it is today. Proof possitive that God does care about the plight of the underdog.
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  12. #11  
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    It's also important to understand that the old and new testaments are entirely different books. Everything that's actually "christian" comes from the new testament, and the attempts made in new testament text to tie itself into the old testament tradation are usually pretty clumbsy.
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    Kojax is correct. I just wanted to add one thing to his statement - Christ said that he came not to abolish the law (meaning the OT way of doing things) but to complete it.

    This means that from the beginning the OT "law" way of doing things was broken and needed fixing (they knew that the law was broken and were anxiously awaiting thier mesiah to complete the equation) specifically when regarding salvation, which came in the form of Christ's grace. You'll find, when you read the NT that there is much more focus on the grace that we are able to recieve when God sees us through the "lense" of Christ's perfection. The OT only helps to highlight how much we really need a savior. How, no matter how much we do, how much we sacrifice, how often we atone, it's never enough to make up for our faults - unless there is a perfect sacrifice (Christ).

    I can explain further if anyone is interested. You have to understand something of Jewish culture / tradition in order to know why Christ's death on a cross, of all places, means anything.

    What I'm trying to get at is that when reading the NT through the lense of the OT, and understanding the oppression and weight of never having true grace for sin (since atonement was only temporary) - you come to realize how incredible Christ's gift on the cross is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's also important to understand that the old and new testaments are entirely different books. Everything that's actually "christian" comes from the new testament, and the attempts made in new testament text to tie itself into the old testament tradation are usually pretty clumbsy.
    but was it not written also
    KJV NT Luke 16:16, The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
    17, And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
    in plain english, he's saying that the laws of the OT, should be followed to the letter in the NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Kojax is correct. I just wanted to add one thing to his statement - Christ said that he came not to abolish the law (meaning the OT way of doing things) but to complete it.
    This means that from the beginning the OT "law" way of doing things was broken and needed fixing (they knew that the law was broken and were anxiously awaiting thier messiah to complete the equation)
    wrong it says I quote KJV NT Matt 5,17 : "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
    NIV NT Matt 5,17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
    I think you will find fulfil doesn't mean fix, it actually means ;To bring into actuality, To carry out, To complete. from this we can gather he was not repairing what was done badly, but continuing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    how incredible Christ's gift on the cross is.
    prey tell what this gift is?
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    I think the key concept here is Rebellion. God's word and testimony or what some know as the Gospel, reflects the pitfalls of disobedience, and the consequences.

    God's Word and His will. These concepts should not be magnified in ignorance toward each other, because it is to easy to ignore some of the facts.

    If we then proceed as independent creatures at our own will: How can we blame God for the evil that exists in the world, or our troubles?


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    everlasting wrote:
    If we then proceed as independent creatures at our own will: How can we blame God for the evil that exists in the world, or our troubles?
    Correct. We don't blame anyone, especially an imagined entity called God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    everlasting wrote:
    If we then proceed as independent creatures at our own will: How can we blame God for the evil that exists in the world, or our troubles?
    Correct. We don't blame anyone, especially an imagined entity called God.
    Imagination is a wonderful thing. Where would we be if scientists and the like did not imagine, and invent all of the conveniences that we rely on.

    Along with the exception that most people of prestige, from scientists to movie stars, attribute the foundation of their understanding to God.

    The ultimate catch 22


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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's also important to understand that the old and new testaments are entirely different books. Everything that's actually "christian" comes from the new testament, and the attempts made in new testament text to tie itself into the old testament tradation are usually pretty clumbsy.
    but was it not written also
    KJV NT Luke 16:16, The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
    17, And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
    in plain english, he's saying that the laws of the OT, should be followed to the letter in the NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Kojax is correct. I just wanted to add one thing to his statement - Christ said that he came not to abolish the law (meaning the OT way of doing things) but to complete it.
    This means that from the beginning the OT "law" way of doing things was broken and needed fixing (they knew that the law was broken and were anxiously awaiting thier messiah to complete the equation)
    wrong it says I quote KJV NT Matt 5,17 : "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
    NIV NT Matt 5,17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
    I think you will find fulfil doesn't mean fix, it actually means ;To bring into actuality, To carry out, To complete. from this we can gather he was not repairing what was done badly, but continuing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    how incredible Christ's gift on the cross is.
    prey tell what this gift is?
    Actually, complete is a word that can be substituted here without problem. Here is dictionary.com's definition of the word fulfill:

    1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
    2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
    3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
    4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
    5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

    Here is the ancient greek word used in the original text (this took me forever to find) πληρῶσαι

    Here is the meaning given according to http://wesley.nnu.edu/gnt/

    4137 pleroo play-ro'-o from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. see 2GREEK for 4134

    So, there are actually a number of ways the original word can be translated, and when you read through them all, in context of what Christ was saying, also, understanding the ancient Jewish tradition of animal sacrifice for the short term atonement of sin, you realize that Christ is saying that He is the Mesiah and IS "fixing / completing" the old way of doing things.

    Jews in the OT sacrificed animals for the forgiveness of sin. Christ was the final, perfect sacrifice for all sin. This is what he meant by "fulfill". We are to follow the law, but our desire to follow the law should spring from our relationship with God and a desire to please Him, since He gave us a way to live eternally.

    OT is separate from NT. Christ said it, although not expressly. There are things about the OT that no longer apply to us since we are living under the "new covenant" spoken about throughout scripture in the New Testament. This "new covenant" is hallmarked by the one time sacrifice and atonment of our sins and the grace that is consistently extended us by God through his son Jesus' death on the cross.

    This post is going to be really really long, but I'm just trying to effectively answer all the questions that were asked of me.

    prey tell what this gift is?
    Christ's "gift" on the cross is this: He took our place, and was the final, perfect sacrifice for our sin. It goes all the way back to when man / woman first sinned. God said "don't do that", we did it anyway, and consequently, since God is perfect and can't look on sin. We have been separated from God.

    This is what we rightfully deserve. Sin has no place with God. But, since God loved us so much - he decided that He would send his perfect Son Jesus to take our place and "atone" for our sin. He paid the price we could never pay by dying. God is perfect and perfectly just, so there had to be repayment for our "debt".

    In Jewish OT culture, the jews were commanded to sacrifice doves, goats, sheep, bulls, etc. for temporary atonement of their sins. They were told to take a "spotless" lamb and sacrifice that for a burnt offering to God on passover. Christ is refferred to in scripture as the "spotless" lamb prophetically. The imagery here is that Christ is the final sacrifice.

    Does all of this make sense? I understand that the mere explanation of this will anger some people, which is not my intent. I only meant to explain, not convert.

    I can explain further about this if you are interested or feel that I didn't do a good enough job.

    Christ took our place. That's the gift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Here is the ancient greek word used in the original text (this took me forever to find) πληρῶσαι

    Here is the meaning given according to http://wesley.nnu.edu/gnt/

    4137 pleroo play-ro'-o from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. see 2GREEK for 4134

    So, there are actually a number of ways the original word can be translated,
    yet none of them are to repair, to fix, to mend.
    why post all this just to verify what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Jews in the OT sacrificed animals for the forgiveness of sin. Christ was the final, perfect sacrifice for all sin. This is what he meant by "fulfill".
    not in the ancient translation or the modern dictionaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    OT is separate from NT. Christ said it, although not expressly. There are things about the OT that no longer apply to us since we are living under the "new covenant" spoken about throughout scripture in the New Testament. This "new covenant" is hallmarked by the one time sacrifice and atonment of our sins and the grace that is consistently extended us by God through his son Jesus' death on the cross.
    what sins, man commited no sin, and what death on a cross, he was resurrected, what's dead about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Christ's "gift" on the cross is this:
    I wasn't really asking, I was being facetious.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    He took our place, and was the final, perfect sacrifice for our sin.
    what sins( being facetious again)
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    It goes all the way back to when man / woman first sinned.
    and how did they manage that. http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...=5446&start=90
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    This is what we rightfully deserve. Sin has no place with God.
    according to your bible god brought sin in to the world.
    so he must like it, and seeing gods such an evil creature it must love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    but, since God loved us so much - he decided that He would send his perfect Son Jesus to take our place and "atone" for our sin.
    what sins
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    He paid the price we could never pay by dying.
    but he never died he was resurrected.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Now part of me is thinking that you don't want to have a dignified conversation whatsoever. I've provided loads of biblical and extrabiblical evidence to back up the statements that I made and all you can say to argue them is "nu uh" (spoken like a 3 year old)

    triple7allstar wrote:
    Here is the ancient greek word used in the original text (this took me forever to find) πληρῶσαι

    Here is the meaning given according to http://wesley.nnu.edu/gnt/

    4137 pleroo play-ro'-o from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. see 2GREEK for 4134

    So, there are actually a number of ways the original word can be translated,
    yet none of them are to repair, to fix, to mend.
    why post all this just to verify what I said.
    How about "satisfy, finish (a period or task), accomplish, complete, end

    I will admit that the specific word "fix" is not in the definition, but the idea is still implicit that there was something that needed fixing. Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully. Christ came and "completed" the law. He "finished" what was started in the OT. The idea is the same.

    There - is that sufficient for you? Or are you going to contine to go tit for tat with me and miss the entire point altogether.


    triple7allstar wrote:
    Jews in the OT sacrificed animals for the forgiveness of sin. Christ was the final, perfect sacrifice for all sin. This is what he meant by "fulfill".
    not in the ancient translation or the modern dictionaries.
    Are you kidding? Did you not read any of the evidence that I just gave you - both modern definition and ancient greek translation. I would hope that anyone that reads this understands that you simply cannot be reasoned with.

    triple7allstar wrote:
    OT is separate from NT. Christ said it, although not expressly. There are things about the OT that no longer apply to us since we are living under the "new covenant" spoken about throughout scripture in the New Testament. This "new covenant" is hallmarked by the one time sacrifice and atonment of our sins and the grace that is consistently extended us by God through his son Jesus' death on the cross.
    what sins, man commited no sin, and what death on a cross, he was resurrected, what's dead about that.
    Without death there is no possibility of resurrection.

    triple7allstar wrote:
    This is what we rightfully deserve. Sin has no place with God.
    according to your bible god brought sin in to the world.
    so he must like it, and seeing gods such an evil creature it must love it.
    I get the sense that you are sitting around your computer monitor with 3 of your best friends, thinking of offensive, off topic things to bring into this thread simply because I have stated publicly that I have a faith in God, Christ, and the Bible and that alone offends you.

    I've stated that it's not my intention to offend you, just have dignified conversation, but I'm afraid that this is becoming less and less possible the more we continue our banter.

    I've explained the things that I believe from the point of view of an informed and educated Christian. I know that not all people will believe what I have to share, but I still feel that when untruths are spoken in a forum like this about the "ancient" morality of Christianity and how it is no longer useful, it is my responsibility to clear things up from a true Christian perspective.

    The problem is that when anyone defends true Christian thinking it offends some people because, if they accept Christianity as true, it means they have to change the way they live thier life. I would assume that this is the source of your obvious futility toward me, Geezer.

    If it's not for you, it's not for you, but what I have presented in this forum is far more substantiated than anything you have brought to the table. In a research paper it's called "citing your sources". At this point, all you've done is misquote scripture and disagree with me without giving adequate evidence, Biblically, to back up your claims (which have been rather outlandish). As a Christian, I take personal issue with this.
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    everlasting wrote:
    Imagination is a wonderful thing. Where would we be if scientists and the like did not imagine, and invent all of the conveniences that we rely on.
    Yes, as long as they can distiguish reality from imagination.
    I can imagine that the moon is full of beautiful girls, that does not make it so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Without death there is no possibility of resurrection.
    when a martyr, dies he remains dead, what did jesus do, he got resurrected, then his death was meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    I get the sense that you are sitting around your computer monitor with 3 of your best friends, thinking of offensive,
    no sorry on my own, and if the truth is offensive then theres not much I can do, but be sorry the it offended you.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    off topic things to bring into this thread simply because I have stated publicly that I have a faith in God, Christ, and the Bible and that alone offends you.
    no doesn't offend at all, all I was trying to do is show where you err.
    your making claims, it seems, without properly reading the bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    I've stated that it's not my intention to offend you, just have dignified conversation, but I'm afraid that this is becoming less and less possible the more we continue our banter.
    and I am sorry the truth offends you.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    I've explained the things that I believe from the point of view of an informed and educated Christian. I know that not all people will believe what I have to share, but I still feel that when untruths are spoken in a forum like this about the "ancient" morality of Christianity and how it is no longer useful, it is my responsibility to clear things up from a true Christian perspective.
    all power to you, for your resolve, however this is a science forum if you make extrordinary claims, you can be sure you would be question on them.
    which I'm sorry, but this can offend, especially if it seems you haven't read your bible properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    The problem is that when anyone defends true Christian thinking it offends some people because, if they accept Christianity as true, it means they have to change the way they live thier life.
    when you discuss christianity or any religion, with an atheist you have no chance of converting them, they do not go from the rational to the irrational, so they wont ever change.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    I would assume that this is the source of your obvious futility toward me, Geezer.
    I have no angst towards you, but I do find that reasonable thinking is abhorrant to the religious. and they put barriers to try to avoid the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    If it's not for you, it's not for you, but what I have presented in this forum is far more substantiated than anything you have brought to the table.
    how so?
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    In a research paper it's called "citing your sources".
    and what extrabiblical sources have you sighted, the bible after all said and done is just a book, like any other fictious book, like the thousand and one nights or easops fables the qu'ran the vedas etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    At this point, all you've done is misquote scripture and disagree with me without giving adequate evidence,
    because my quotes from scripture are contradictory to yours, does not make them misquote. it just means you need to read your bible properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Biblically,
    which I did
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    to back up your claims (which have been rather outlandish). As a Christian, I take personal issue with this.
    what you find offensive is, the fact I've used, your own holy book against you, as I said earlier the truth can be offensive.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    when a martyr, dies he remains dead, what did jesus do, he got resurrected, then his death was meaningless.
    Revelation 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    I'm guessing He had to die so He could go to hell and steal these two keys for some reason. Hell(pun intended), I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I have no angst towards you, but I do find that reasonable thinking is abhorrant to the religious. and they put barriers to try to avoid the truth.
    I completely agree with this statement. And the last defense a man of religion has which always arrives, is that it 'feels right'. Or, it's too complicated to not be designed. It's ridiculous.

    Sorry to butt in. Felt like typing...
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    triple7allstar wrote:
    Without death there is no possibility of resurrection.
    when a martyr, dies he remains dead, what did jesus do, he got resurrected, then his death was meaningless.
    Actually, Christians believe that it is because Christ rose from the dead that we can experience eternal life. If He would have died and never rose it would have proved that He was just a regular guy. However, because He rose again, it proved that He was God and able to atone for our sin.

    - Just trying to clarify, again, how Christians interperet scripture, not trying to tell you that these events that we believe are FACTUAL - hope this distinction is clear.


    Geezer,

    I'm not trying to convert you. I understand now that you are an athiest. All I'm trying to do is make sure that when the Bible is quoted, that the meaning of the passages quoted is revealed properly.

    By "misquote", I didn't mean that you didn't take the EXACT scripture reference from the Bible. You did this, and should be commended. However, I personally dissagree with your use of those specific scriptures to help support your claims here that:

    1. The Bible is a useless book to base our morality on
    2. That is condones / "promotes" slavery

    That was all I was trying to do, was bring to light the fact that the Bible does not specifically "promote" slavery. I will admit that it does not condemn it either. However, you have a bais (as do I), and I wanted to show the other side of the coin, how someone from the other side of the fence would interperet the scriptures that you presented.

    I do believe that you took scripture out of context when using those specific verses to back up your claim that the Bible "promotes" slavery.

    I admit that my being a Christian and believing in God, Jesus, the resurrection, etc is a very "circular" argument. I never made a case on the contrary. However, we all use faith in our everyday lives in one form or another. (please don't flame me for saying this - let's let dead dogs lie)

    The Bible, when interpreted correctly, and understood from more than just a textual basis, but also reading it with an understanding of the culture, historical context and writer's life experience DOES have very relevant things to say about modern morality, if one should choose to be open to accepting them and not isolate pieces of scripture apart from their historical context.

    Please don't tell me that I've never read the Bible - or read it properly. This is a shot below the belt. I don't read it enough, and that's true, but I do read it, and I have studied it on a deeper level than most I'm sure. Bottom line is that when taking passages out of context in ANY book, you can make them say just about anything that you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    everlasting wrote:
    Imagination is a wonderful thing. Where would we be if scientists and the like did not imagine, and invent all of the conveniences that we rely on.
    Yes, as long as they can distiguish reality from imagination.
    I can imagine that the moon is full of beautiful girls, that does not make it so.
    Expanding our horizon's should hold no bounds.

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  26. #25 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    We should all be aware that moral codes do not keep up with the world. For example, the bible says nothing about not sewing mines in war or spreading anti-personel mines that children would find later on and have a leg or two blown off. Of course, they did not have mines in biblical days, but that is the very point! The Biblical morality is out of date.

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Instead, there are some 600 laws or rules pertaining to old Temple rituals and a cubit measuring system.

    Yet, we are told to "turn the other cheek when struck." Would that have enabled us to defeat Nazism?

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    We need a much better moral code or system than that! Society is in bad shape because there is no real moral system any more. The old one is all but worthless. We can change all that!

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    I am agree with you..and I promise that you will find what you are looking for in Quraan :-D
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  27. #26 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    We should all be aware that moral codes do not keep up with the world. For example, the bible says nothing about not sewing mines in war or spreading anti-personel mines that children would find later on and have a leg or two blown off. Of course, they did not have mines in biblical days, but that is the very point! The Biblical morality is out of date.

    For example, it allows, even promotes, slavery. There is one passage, even, that allows you to murder your slave if he or she is disobedient as long as the slave dies slowly! There is nothing against the torture of prisoners. Nothing against stalking, kidnapping and rape.

    Instead, there are some 600 laws or rules pertaining to old Temple rituals and a cubit measuring system.

    Yet, we are told to "turn the other cheek when struck." Would that have enabled us to defeat Nazism?

    Keep in mind that in Isaiah 45:7, "God" admits boastfully that he created evil. He also explains that he comes not to bring peace but a sword.

    We need a much better moral code or system than that! Society is in bad shape because there is no real moral system any more. The old one is all but worthless. We can change all that!

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    I am agree with you..and I promise that you will find what you are looking for in Quraan :-D
    Did you sign up on this forum simply to preach your religion?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    everlasting wrote:
    Expanding our horizon's should hold no bounds.
    as long as you can distinguish reality from imagination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    everlasting wrote:
    Expanding our horizon's should hold no bounds.
    as long as you can distinguish reality from imagination.
    And life imitates fiction.


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    Everlasting wrote:
    And life imitates fiction.
    No, life is stranger than fiction.
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  31. #30  
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    Hmmm... this is all very interesting. But as evidenced in this thread, there is so much in the bible that is open to interpretation. Even biblical "scholars" do not agree on everything. An "eye for an eye", "turn the other cheek", slavery yes, slavery no, etc., etc. On and on. Does it make sense to regard such an ambiguous and outdated text so highly?? And how can you pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible, or how you want to interpret it? If it truly is the inspired "word of God", then shouldn't ALL of it be totally true and literal and unambiguous? And what of the bibles of OTHER religions? Which is the "right" one?

    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Hmmm... this is all very interesting. But as evidenced in this thread, there is so much in the bible that is open to interpretation. Even biblical "scholars" do not agree on everything. An "eye for an eye", "turn the other cheek", slavery yes, slavery no, etc., etc. On and on. Does it make sense to regard such an ambiguous and outdated text so highly?? And how can you pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible, or how you want to interpret it? If it truly is the inspired "word of God", then shouldn't ALL of it be totally true and literal and unambiguous? And what of the bibles of OTHER religions? Which is the "right" one?

    Ron
    Well, making it open for interpretation is a clever way to make it last for generations to come. If it were strictly interpreted, it wouldn't last as long. It's like the US Constitution.

    Edit: And about the other religions, there is really no way to know which one is the right one, except on the individual level. It all depends on the environment in which you grew up, your personal deduction, and/or your personal "experiences" (which cannot be confirmed or negated by an outside party). In other words, it's subjective, or immanent, if you like.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  33. #32 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Did you sign up on this forum simply to preach your religion?
    Did you sign up on this forum simply to to express your views? I know I did.
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  34. #33 Re: Why the Christian faith is so IMMORAL. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Did you sign up on this forum simply to preach your religion?
    Did you sign up on this forum simply to to express your views? I know I did.
    Yes, but not to say Christianity is better than every religion in the world, so come join. There is a difference between expressing your views on religion, and preaching your religion/putting down others' religion.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Hmmm... this is all very interesting. But as evidenced in this thread, there is so much in the bible that is open to interpretation. Even biblical "scholars" do not agree on everything. An "eye for an eye", "turn the other cheek", slavery yes, slavery no, etc., etc. On and on. Does it make sense to regard such an ambiguous and outdated text so highly?? And how can you pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible, or how you want to interpret it? If it truly is the inspired "word of God", then shouldn't ALL of it be totally true and literal and unambiguous? And what of the bibles of OTHER religions? Which is the "right" one?

    Ron
    The Word of God is for those who choose and seek God's ways. The Bible is like an open door. Like choosing a major in college. Each person makes a choice, and follows that course to it's finish. When we choose an area of study, many times the data in front of us is ambiguous, but in order to pursue and attain our goals, we persevere. Accepting the foundations of education, has the same quality as accepting the foundations of the Bible. And I believe that after seeing the strength of any foundation: We find that understanding and learning are founded on a historical past, that paves the way to the future.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Moses allowed Isrealites to keep slaves - why? Because the idea of not having slaves was just a little bit too advanced for those primative idiots. It was better to settle for just putting some limits on how slaves were treated than to accomplish nothing at all.
    This is a good example of what my initial post was about. The Bible is an old compromise intended to influence ancient events. We are now, however, in the 21st century and in a very different world. To us, the Biblical morality is often obsolete. That explains why it says nothing against sewing mines. It is no longer an appropirate guide to morality. It says nothing about torturing prisoners.

    One post claims my Biblical reference to God creating evil is wrong. I have no idea what translation he is using with his quote--he didn't say, but I used the King James version. common in every hotel room in the nation. It is dishonorable to shift from one translation to another.

    Christianity was a good religion for some 1500 years but it has now become obsolete. Its antiquated moral system is failing our society even though it is better than no moral system---such as Marxist East Asia has---or the simplistic moral forumula of Hinduism. It is even superior to younger Islam, but none of them are satisfactory any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    The Word of God is for those who choose and seek God's ways.
    This has all the appearance of a tautology. Consequently I fail to see its value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    The Bible is like an open door. Like choosing a major in college. Each person makes a choice, and follows that course to it's finish.
    This is a dreadful analogy. I know many people who have switched majors several times, or abandoned a college education entirely.
    Also, you have made a questionable assumption from the outset: that the real choice is between going through the open door of the Bible, or turning one's back on it. That is not the case. There is an entire corridor of doors, some wide open, some merely ajar. The Bible is merely one of them. You seem to say that all the other doors are false doors. That is not assumptive, but presumptive, and potentially offensive to those who have chosen one of the other doors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    Accepting the foundations of education, has the same quality as accepting the foundations of the Bible.
    You are going to have to explain this. As written its semantic content appears close to zero. As far as I can see you have just stated "the colour of apples is the same as the constant of thermal conductivity in the heat flow equation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    We find that understanding and learning are founded on a historical past, that paves the way to the future.
    True, but what the heck does that have to do with the price of eggs in Botswana?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    The Word of God is for those who choose and seek God's ways.
    This has all the appearance of a tautology. Consequently I fail to see its value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    The Bible is like an open door. Like choosing a major in college. Each person makes a choice, and follows that course to it's finish.
    This is a dreadful analogy. I know many people who have switched majors several times, or abandoned a college education entirely.
    Also, you have made a questionable assumption from the outset: that the real choice is between going through the open door of the Bible, or turning one's back on it. That is not the case. There is an entire corridor of doors, some wide open, some merely ajar. The Bible is merely one of them. You seem to say that all the other doors are false doors. That is not assumptive, but presumptive, and potentially offensive to those who have chosen one of the other doors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    Accepting the foundations of education, has the same quality as accepting the foundations of the Bible.
    You are going to have to explain this. As written its semantic content appears close to zero. As far as I can see you have just stated "the colour of apples is the same as the constant of thermal conductivity in the heat flow equation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    We find that understanding and learning are founded on a historical past, that paves the way to the future.
    True, but what the heck does that have to do with the price of eggs in Botswana?
    In understanding what the Bible has to offer, you understanding what you can attain in the world. Why do people abandon their education and forsake their future? Having a solid belief in yourself is something that religion imparts. The Bible never tells anyone to give up. The world surely doesn't give anyone that type of encouragment.


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    So many words, all nonsenses.
    In understanding what the Bible has to offer, you understanding what you can attain in the world. Why do people abandon their education and forsake their future?
    Bible is not equal to education. The two sentences do not relate.

    Having a solid belief in yourself is something that religion imparts.
    by definition, relgion imparts belief in God, not oneself.

    The Bible never tells anyone to give up.
    Most books have not told anyone to give up either.

    The world surely doesn't give anyone that type of encouragment.
    fact of life.


    Is this a preaching in disguise?
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    So many words, all nonsenses.
    In understanding what the Bible has to offer, you understanding what you can attain in the world. Why do people abandon their education and forsake their future?
    Bible is not equal to education. The two sentences do not relate.

    Having a solid belief in yourself is something that religion imparts.
    by definition, relgion imparts belief in God, not oneself.

    The Bible never tells anyone to give up.
    Most books have not told anyone to give up either.

    The world surely doesn't give anyone that type of encouragment.
    fact of life.


    Is this a preaching in disguise?
    If the wrongs of this world are a fact of Life, then why do you bother to address them so strongly? If you believe in your heart that you have the right point of view, then rest on your decision. People don't go to church, so that the preacher can badger them into believing. They go because they want to be there. And since this is a free world: People are allowed to believe in God, or not to believe. For your non belief: it seems extreme for you, and others to continually bash religion. You have your non-belief fine. Live and let live. I could say that the devil has your mind so captivated, that you can't see the light of day: But I wouldn't waste my time on it...

    Just a Thought
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    I agree with much, though not all, that Prasit said. here are some otehr points.
    Why do people abandon their education and forsake their future? Having a solid belief in yourself is something that religion imparts. The Bible never tells anyone to give up. The world surely doesn't give anyone that type of encouragment.
    1: People may abandon their formal education because they realise it is inappropriate for them. That is a positive thing, not a bad thing.
    2: I have no doubt that religion can give a solid measure of confidence in yourself. Equally there are many confident people who have not a trace of religion, and also many more who are religious, but certainly do not follow the Bible.
    3: The Koran does not tell people to give up. Other holy books do not tell people to give up. Many secular works on self improvement do not tell people to give up.
    4: The World has certainly given me that kind of encouragement. Perhaps you are living in the wrong world.
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    1: People may abandon their formal education because they realise it is inappropriate for them. That is a positive thing, not a bad thing.
    Only to make other people in their lives miserable; for their own mistakes.

    2: I have no doubt that religion can give a solid measure of confidence in yourself. Equally there are many confident people who have not a trace of religion, and also many more who are religious, but certainly do not follow the Bible.
    True - But this was the topic of the post.

    3: The Koran does not tell people to give up. Other holy books do not tell people to give up. Many secular works on self improvement do not tell people to give up.
    4: The World has certainly given me that kind of encouragement. Perhaps you are living in the wrong world
    True, but if your world were perfect: we would not have to reach out and debate the issue.

    8)

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    Not sure why I'm getting back in the middle of this - cause - like Al Pacino said in the Godfather, "Just when I thought I was out - they pull me back in".

    I have a question for Charles:

    If we shouldn't base our modern sense of morality on the Bible what should be base it on, in your opinion?

    Just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    If we shouldn't base our modern sense of morality on the Bible what should be base it on, in your opinion?


    -----------------

    Hmm...this should be interesting...
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
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    I know - hahaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    1: People may abandon their formal education because they realise it is inappropriate for them. That is a positive thing, not a bad thing.
    Only to make other people in their lives miserable; for their own mistakes.
    everlasting, you do realise you are talking rubbish? Your presumption is that a formal education is superior in all circumstances, for all people, at all times, to an informal education. Where did you pick up such a cack handed concept? Why would taking up scul;pture, or becoming a carpenter, or a plumber, or taking over a small croft in thw Western Isles of Scotland represent a mistake that would make other people miserable?
    Quote Originally Posted by Everlasting
    4: The World has certainly given me that kind (positive) of encouragement. Perhaps you are living in the wrong world
    True, but if your world were perfect: we would not have to reach out and debate the issue.
    Why would I want a perfect world. I learn from imperfections. I achieve by overcoming imperfections. The journey is more important than the destination.
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    Matthew chapter 19, verses 7,8, and 9 are very telling about how Jesus Christ seems to have seen this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bible
    7 )- They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

    8 )- He (Jesus Christ) saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

    9 )- And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
    The whole content of Matthew chapters 5-7 could be seen as well to be an attempt to update the old traditions to a better, higher, standard.

    Maybe the religion just needs a new "prophet" or another something-or-other that can change old laws.
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    This is a good example of what my initial post was about. The Bible is an old compromise intended to influence ancient events. We are now, however, in the 21st century and in a very different world. To us, the Biblical morality is often obsolete. That explains why it says nothing against sewing mines. It is no longer an appropirate guide to morality. It says nothing about torturing prisoners.
    To use a posh term this is a blatent fallacy of the affirmatin of the consequent. Take a look at what you are saying in step order:
    1. The Bible does not mention some modern problems.
    2. As it does not mention some modern problems it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues.
    3. As it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues then all issues that it does offer guidance on are wrong/obsolete.

    What on earth leads you to think this is a logical progression?! Just because it doesn't offer guidance on mines for example doesn't mean that the Bible's messages of love which are present throughout are somehow outdated because it was written before landmines existed... lets take this logic into something everyday to demonstrate it's illogicality.
    1. A horse does not ee-aw
    2. As a horse does not ee-aw then it cannot be considered as a donkey.
    3. As a horse is not a donkey it cannot therefore share any characteristics at all with a donkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Singleton
    This is a good example of what my initial post was about. The Bible is an old compromise intended to influence ancient events. We are now, however, in the 21st century and in a very different world. To us, the Biblical morality is often obsolete. That explains why it says nothing against sewing mines. It is no longer an appropirate guide to morality. It says nothing about torturing prisoners.
    To use a posh term this is a blatent fallacy of the affirmatin of the consequent. Take a look at what you are saying in step order:
    1. The Bible does not mention some modern problems.
    2. As it does not mention some modern problems it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues.
    3. As it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues then all issues that it does offer guidance on are wrong/obsolete.

    What on earth leads you to think this is a logical progression?! Just because it doesn't offer guidance on mines for example doesn't mean that the Bible's messages of love which are present throughout are somehow outdated because it was written before landmines existed... lets take this logic into something everyday to demonstrate it's illogicality.
    1. A horse does not ee-aw
    2. As a horse does not ee-aw then it cannot be considered as a donkey.
    3. As a horse is not a donkey it cannot therefore share any characteristics at all with a donkey.
    Well put Dave. Glad to see I have another person to fight beside here.

    Cheers
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    Well put Dave. Glad to see I have another person to fight beside here.

    Cheers
    No prob, I've been revising philosophy all day for an exam in just over a week which has the odd effect of getting me very mentally worked-up in the "spot the illogicality" way! Watch out all you fallacy makers!
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Singleton
    To use a posh term this is a blatent fallacy of the affirmatin of the consequent. Take a look at what you are saying in step order:
    1. The Bible does not mention some modern problems.
    2. As it does not mention some modern problems it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues.
    3. As it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues then all issues that it does offer guidance on are wrong/obsolete.
    I would apply those arguements to the problem of nuclear weapons, however. Almost everything about war ethics changes when there's a possibility of mutual total annihilation, and in a single day, no less.

    That's one problem that certainly no one anywhere in the bible really ever faced.

    In fact, that is a problem it really needs to address, or we end up having to throw out absolutely everything it has to say about war, because the things it has to say might not only be wrong, but they might be dangerously wrong.
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    I would apply those arguements to the problem of nuclear weapons, however. Almost everything about war ethics changes when there's a possibility of mutual total annihilation, and in a single day, no less.

    That's one problem that certainly no one anywhere in the bible really ever faced.

    In fact, that is a problem it really needs to address, or we end up having to throw out absolutely everything it has to say about war, because the things it has to say might not only be wrong, but they might be dangerously wrong.
    I would disagree. In terms of war Christ teaches to turn the 'other cheek' and not initiate any conflict. I think this is very wise in terms of nuclear war. You could almost say that the prospect of the nuke will almost eventually forge world peace - only a complete nutter would consider nuking someone else as that person would then get nuked by everyone else!
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  53. #52 the christ and the cross 
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    how do any of you define the difference between the christ and the cross?
    Does a theory of everything therefore need to be purely theoretical and only account for the known laws and forces in handling the improbability of fortune telling?

    the www feature below can explain it better.
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Singleton
    To use a posh term this is a blatent fallacy of the affirmatin of the consequent. Take a look at what you are saying in step order:
    1. The Bible does not mention some modern problems.
    2. As it does not mention some modern problems it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues.
    3. As it does not offer specific guidance on certain issues then all issues that it does offer guidance on are wrong/obsolete.
    I would apply those arguements to the problem of nuclear weapons, however. Almost everything about war ethics changes when there's a possibility of mutual total annihilation, and in a single day, no less.

    That's one problem that certainly no one anywhere in the bible really ever faced.

    In fact, that is a problem it really needs to address, or we end up having to throw out absolutely everything it has to say about war, because the things it has to say might not only be wrong, but they might be dangerously wrong.
    Sorry - Here is a relevant Bible Verse...

    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Sounds like nuclear or Sun/Global Warming to me....


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    everlasting wrote:
    Sounds like nuclear or Sun/Global Warming to me...
    sound like anything that is hot can be said to be predicted by the bible, with such a ambiguous words and wide allowance for interpretation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    everlasting wrote:
    Sounds like nuclear or Sun/Global Warming to me...
    sound like anything that is hot can be said to be predicted by the bible, with such a ambiguous words and wide allowance for interpretation.
    The Bible is used so that people can understand and interpret the signs of the times. Taking a look at the world around us, what would you decide?




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    Sorry - Here is a relevant Bible Verse...

    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Sounds like nuclear or Sun/Global Warming to me....
    So the bible advises us to anxiously await the day of annihilation? We're supposed to charge headlong into nuclear war, rejoicing all the way?
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  58. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Sorry - Here is a relevant Bible Verse...

    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Sounds like nuclear or Sun/Global Warming to me....
    So the bible advises us to anxiously await the day of annihilation? We're supposed to charge headlong into nuclear war, rejoicing all the way?
    No. The Bible warns us that because of inability to get along, that this might be a consequence. That is why counsel, unity and perserverance are important to our survival. We are stewards of the earth by free will. How we take care of it, becomes our main problem.


    Everlasting
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    "hasting unto" ?

    The word "haste" usually refers to trying to get somewhere or do something faster. IE. "make haste" means "hurry up" in modern speech. To hasten your arrival means to try and arrive earlier than expected.

    Hasten is the opposite of delay.


    So........... if they're "2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" -that kind of implies that they're really eager for it to arrive.

    It could also be understood as implying that they're actually going to try and make it get here faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    "hasting unto" ?

    The word "haste" usually refers to trying to get somewhere or do something faster. IE. "make haste" means "hurry up" in modern speech. To hasten your arrival means to try and arrive earlier than expected.

    Hasten is the opposite of delay.


    So........... if they're "2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" -that kind of implies that they're really eager for it to arrive.

    It could also be understood as implying that they're actually going to try and make it get here faster.
    Or hasting could mean inevitable: due to man resistance to God's will. More like proceeding that way, quickly without proper recourse ...

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    everlasting wrote:
    The Bible is used so that people can understand and interpret the signs of the times. Taking a look at the world around us, what would you decide?
    People interpret the events, then look for anything that can remotely match them in the Bible. People don't use the Bible to predict the events, someone just try to make it seem so, with 20/20 hindsight.
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    Or hasting could mean inevitable: due to man resistance to God's will. More like proceeding that way, quickly without proper recourse ...

    Just a Thought
    Well, we do have to account for the possibility that the translation from Greek might not be perfect. If the take the English as written, hasting is clearly being used as a verb to describe something the people who are "looking for" are doing.

    They are "hasting"
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    everlasting wrote:
    The Bible is used so that people can understand and interpret the signs of the times. Taking a look at the world around us, what would you decide?
    People interpret the events, then look for anything that can remotely match them in the Bible. People don't use the Bible to predict the events, someone just try to make it seem so, with 20/20 hindsight.
    Prasit - I agree with you. Unfortunately, there are a number of Christians that do this with the word of God and cause the rest of us to look like fools. I do believe that there will be a final day of judgement - because the scriptures expressly say it. However, there are so many things that ARE ambiguous I can not pretend in conversations like this that I know exactly what the Bible is referring to.

    Now, just in case a number of you want to jump all over me and start point fingers like, "see, see there are a number of things that are ambiguous - he admits it". The things the Bible is ambiguous about have no real changing effect on how we should live our lives. Meaning, there are so many things the Bible is explicit about - how we are to live - how we are NOT to live, etc that it really doesn't matter how you interperet the grey.

    The important thing in conversations like this is to keep bringing people back to the person of Jesus Christ. He was real - we all HAVE to agree about that.

    Since He was real, and basically the most famous character the world has ever seen we should (as responsible thinkers) ask ourselves "what was with that guy anyway?"

    He can only be one of three things:

    1. A liar - and the biggest one the world has ever known
    2. CRAZY - out of his mind
    3. Who He said He was!

    I know most of you would say that He was crazy or that He was a liar and maybe just a man or just a great prophet and not in fact the Son of God - but I'll ask you ALL this:

    What if you're wrong?








    I don't mean for that to come across as condemning - It is not my place to judge any of you for the fact that you don't have a relationship with "my" God. I just think that since we're having the conversation its as good a time as any to bring this up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    He can only be one of three things:

    1. A liar - and the biggest one the world has ever known
    2. CRAZY - out of his mind
    3. Who He said He was!
    No, he'd be far from the biggest one the world has ever known. You must be pretty naive if you think that's the worst people have ever lied.

    He might be the most successful, though.
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    Some people (Jews, maybe?) might argue that he was neither the son of god or crazy but in fact a gift from the devil. But most jews take the view that he was just an important prophet, i think.
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    The Old Testament was a way for people who had seen immorality everywhere for a long time and were losing hope for many a great things, the words of God were established by Moses very early and these laws that God did give were of a nature for us all to be obedient to God and to ourselves. I do admit that The Old Testament is easy to misinterperet, if it said in The Bible 3500 years ago that thou shall not park between 14:00-19:00 Mon-Fri we would be confused, but the Israelites would be dumbfounded! We have to take the word of God into account given the nature of reality, you don't need the bible to know what is good and bad, The Bible is a guide for life that was given for people 3500 years ago, by Jesus arrival it was outdated. The ten commandments still apply, but the so called 'sub-laws' outline lesser laws can be altered to imply a modern interperatation BUT BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU INTERPERET THE WORD OF GOD TO THE MODERN WORLD, I had a problem with that; here consider the tenth commandment: "Thou shall not covet thy neighbours house, nor his Ox, nor his manservant or maidservant", of course I may have missed something out here but the modern version would be: "Thou shall not covet thy neighbours house, nor his car, nor his worldly goods. Of course that's my interperatation not the word of God so be careful.

    The New Testament is about Jesus and 'replaces' the old, the ten commandments still apply and so do many of the other laws, but you CANNOT AND MUST NOT JUSTIFY murder of people or servants back then into common life, the Muslim extremists do that and they are known more commonly as terrorists. But personally I have never seen in The Bible any part that says you can murder anyone, just 'put to death', which is not murder other wise it would have said that. Ignore the person who wrote that it says you can murder because they have worded it wrong, through no fault of their own, it is their anger that gets them to make mistakes, not them themselves. Jesus taught us this, to understand that evil is not in men and women, but rather evil consumes poeple like a 'shroud', of course I do not justify murderers getting let off scott free, I simply imply that we can all help one another by being tolerating with each other and if they do not want our help, then we cannot help them; to continue would make us mad and lead us to anger and we'd be back where we were earlier. It is difficult to live a holy life and to understand and help and love each other-I know that all to well, but our sacrafices to help the world will give us a better place to live in-the problem with all religion and wars is the interperation of the holy books of all religions. Take the word written as the word written, take that it was said and written 3 millenia ago and take that it is not a book of laws to control us, but a book to help us, as God said "Do my will and you will be rewarded" (in short). The reward is given from God to us by the way we all help and love one another-that is the true reward, that and eternal peace and love after we do these things. Don't worry! God will help us when the time He deems fit, do not lose faith and do not lose hope.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    The Old Testament was a way for people who had seen immorality everywhere for a long time and were losing hope for many a great things, the words of God were established by Moses very early and these laws that God did give were of a nature for us all to be obedient to God and to ourselves. I do admit that The Old Testament is easy to misinterperet, if it said in The Bible 3500 years ago that thou shall not park between 14:00-19:00 Mon-Fri we would be confused, but the Israelites would be dumbfounded! We have to take the word of God into account given the nature of reality, you don't need the bible to know what is good and bad, The Bible is a guide for life that was given for people 3500 years ago, by Jesus arrival it was outdated. The ten commandments still apply, but the so called 'sub-laws' outline lesser laws can be altered to imply a modern interperatation BUT BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU INTERPERET THE WORD OF GOD TO THE MODERN WORLD, I had a problem with that; here consider the tenth commandment: "Thou shall not covet thy neighbours house, nor his Ox, nor his manservant or maidservant", of course I may have missed something out here but the modern version would be: "Thou shall not covet thy neighbours house, nor his car, nor his worldly goods. Of course that's my interperatation not the word of God so be careful.
    welcome to the forum, which set of commandments in the old and new testament are you refering to the first set god wrote or the second, or the ones jesus quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer

    The New Testament is about Jesus and 'replaces' the old, the ten commandments still apply and so do many of the other laws,
    no it's "so do all the other laws" jesus said he agrees with the old testament laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    but you CANNOT AND MUST NOT JUSTIFY murder of people or servants back then into common life, the Muslim extremists do that and they are known more commonly as terrorists. But personally I have never seen in The Bible any part that says you can murder anyone, just 'put to death', which is not murder
    what!
    after that last statment your post lost it for me.

    put to death for worshiping idols!, put to death for taking gods name in vain!, put to death for working on saturday (the sabbath) and no it's not sunday!, put to death for talkng back to mum or dad!, and put to death for have sex, with anothers wife/husband!.
    wow none of those could be classed as murder could they!.
    "Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion – several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven." Mark Twain
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    [quote="marcos"]
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    put to death for worshiping idols!, put to death for taking gods name in vain!, put to death for working on saturday (the sabbath) and no it's not sunday!, put to death for talkng back to mum or dad!, and put to death for have sex, with anothers wife/husband!.
    wow none of those could be classed as murder could they!.
    Oh boy - here we go - I'm opening up another can of worms.

    Marcos,

    What's your take on capital punishment then? I take it from this response that you are against it entirely? I ask because IF God is a perfectly just being (and I assume that this is a pre-supposition that might not be true), God "murdering" someone was actually just a form of just punishment - similar to our capital punishment today.

    The people that were slain were either people that had greivously broken God's law (jews) or pagan people groups that were completely opposed to God's rule.

    My point is just this: In the Old Testament God didn't pull any punches. People knew what was required of them and knew the punishments for their actions would be severe. These people were not murdered, they were punished as per the law that God had already put in place. The reason their punishment was so severe - if you look at each case - was that there was no level of remorse by any of these individuals for their actions when they got caught. Instead, in every instance, each person that was slain had the idea that they could pull one over on God, or tried to cover up thier actions further by lying. As you can see, He's not to keen on that whole idea.
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  69. #68  
    Forum Freshman marcos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    Quote Originally Posted by marcos
    put to death for worshiping idols!, put to death for taking gods name in vain!, put to death for working on saturday (the sabbath) and no it's not sunday!, put to death for talkng back to mum or dad!, and put to death for have sex, with anothers wife/husband!.
    wow none of those could be classed as murder could they!.
    Oh boy - here we go - I'm opening up another can of worms.

    Marcos,

    What's your take on capital punishment then? I take it from this response that you are against it entirely?
    [quote=triple7allstar] that idea, those above are unjust killings, a huge difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    I ask because IF God is a perfectly just being (and I assume that this is a pre-supposition that might not be true), God "murdering" someone was actually just a form of just punishment
    well lets take a look at this, just gods killings according to the bible, smiting all the first born in egypt, that was fair wasn't it, killing lots wife for turning her head, that was fair wasn't it, killing all the people for dancing round a golden calf made by there religious leader was fair wasn't it, killing babies in sodom and gormorrah was fair wasn't it, killing babies in the great flood was fair wasn't it, I could go on and on about this god of love from the bible
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    similar to our capital punishment today.
    no, not similar at all, we dont kill babies or people for turning there heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    The people that were slain were either people that had greivously broken God's law (jews) or pagan people groups that were completely opposed to God's rule.
    yes including the babies, these babies danced round idols they were real heathens.
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    My point is just this: In the Old Testament God didn't pull any punches. People knew what was required of them and knew the punishments for their actions would be severe. These people were not murdered, they were punished as per the law that God had already put in place.
    so ok god said to lot's wife dont turn your head else I'll kill you. the god said to the first born of egypt, make sure your pharaoh, does what I say as I wont kill him, but I will kill all you lot. talk sense man. .
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    The reason their punishment was so severe - if you look at each case - was that there was no level of remorse by any of these individuals for their actions when they got caught. Instead, in every instance, each person that was slain had the idea that they could pull one over on God,
    what like the babies or the people of other religions, oh I see..
    Quote Originally Posted by triple7allstar
    or tried to cover up thier actions further by lying. As you can see, He's not to keen on that whole idea.
    no it seems he dont like nobody, especially babies and animals, but he does like the smell of burning flesh, and why does god hate, there is one person in the bible that god says he hates, was it because he had red hair, was it because he was a hunter, go figure.
    "Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion – several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven." Mark Twain
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