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Thread: why I embraced Islam?????

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    you will never see me critisizing muslims but merely the idiology of islam , its a bit like disagreeing with bushs policies as opposed to hating everyone who voted for him :wink:
    got it. no problem, though it seems that often you have a mistaken understanding of the ideology of Islam.

    Anyway, I have to go now, it's almost midnight my time, and I have a lot of studying to do this weekend (exams). So, I hope to continue sometime soon...nice debating with you.
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist-to-be
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    you will never see me critisizing muslims but merely the idiology of islam , its a bit like disagreeing with bushs policies as opposed to hating everyone who voted for him :wink:
    got it. no problem, though it seems that often you have a mistaken understanding of the ideology of Islam.

    Anyway, I have to go now, it's almost midnight my time, and I have a lot of studying to do this weekend (exams). So, I hope to continue sometime soon...nice debating with you.

    likewise
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    The problem is how can you critisize something that you don't really understand? and not only your misunderstanding it, your making up most of it, I've never read those before too.
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazard
    The problem is how can you critisize something that you don't really understand? and not only your misunderstanding it, your making up most of it, I've never read those before too.
    do a google search then :wink:

    Looks like a good percentage of muslims around the world are also getting the wrong message of peace too
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    since when did muslims get their teachings from the Google? Do people practice their religeons on the Internet? :P
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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    on a happier not: did anybody see the new GTA IV Pics, looks hot
    http://www.gta4.net/news/index.php
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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    There are only two major things that bother me about Islam.

    1) - The claim I hear loosely made from time to time that muslims have a duty to force the rest of the world to live under Islamic law. (And, if they have a duty, they must think they have a right).

    I'm curious how many muslims actually believe in this, but the religion seems to have begun by forcibly converting nearby countries. So it can't be too far out of their doctrine. (I know Christians have done so too, but this was long after the death of Jesus Christ. The Muslims were doing this during Muhamud's lifetime)


    2) - The simple fact that none of the Islamic countries on earth have developed functional, industrialized, economies.

    How far does the apple fall from the tree? If islam were an enlightened religion, you'd think the obedience and dilligence of its followers would produce better results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There are only two major things that bother me about Islam.

    1) - The claim I hear loosely made from time to time that muslims have a duty to force the rest of the world to live under Islamic law. (And, if they have a duty, they must think they have a right).

    I'm curious how many muslims actually believe in this, but the religion seems to have begun by forcibly converting nearby countries. So it can't be too far out of their doctrine. (I know Christians have done so too, but this was long after the death of Jesus Christ. The Muslims were doing this during Muhamud's lifetime)
    No, muslims do not have a duty or right to force the rest of the world to live under islamic law. They do, however, have a duty of delivering the message of Islam to the world. No, the religion did not begin by forcing people to convert, it begun by delivering the message to nearby countries, and giving them the choice to convert or to live in peace.

    2) - The simple fact that none of the Islamic countries on earth have developed functional, industrialized, economies.

    How far does the apple fall from the tree? If islam were an enlightened religion, you'd think the obedience and dilligence of its followers would produce better results.
    Unfortunately, most muslims today do not follow their religion correctly. However, if you look back at the time when Islam was a new religion, and its followers were true believers, you'll find that the Islamic community was one of the most advanced in economy and science compared to the rest of the world back then.
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is.
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  9. #209  
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    No, muslims do not have a duty or right to force the rest of the world to live under islamic law. They do, however, have a duty of delivering the message of Islam to the world. No, the religion did not begin by forcing people to convert, it begun by delivering the message to nearby countries, and giving them the choice to convert or to live in peace.

    what about the choice of individuals growing up in a muslim country, who have been brought into a muslim family and don't have the choice to leave their religion through threats of beatings, torture and even death?
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    what about the choice of individuals growing up in a muslim country, who have been brought into a muslim family and don't have the choice to leave their religion through threats of beatings, torture and even death?
    Captaincaveman, I don't know why you think that individuals who have been brought up in muslim families cannot choose to leave their religion.
    Let's analyse your question:
    You said threats of beatings, torture and even death.

    Firstly, we said that in most muslim countries Islamic law is not applied, so the possibility of death is eliminated.

    secondly, let's say I decide to leave Islam...who is going to beat me up?
    my parents? they cannot legally do that as soon as I become of age.
    my husband (if i were married)? I can easily get a divorce, besides a husband who beats his wife would be, in doing that, going against the teachings of islam himself.

    It's obvious then, that whether or not an individual chooses to remain a muslim or not is his own choice.

    Take Biohazard as an example, (s)he said that (s)he was brought up in a religious family, and (s)he chose to leave Islam, and as far as I can tell, (s)he's alive and well :wink: .
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is.
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    Im a He and from Kuwait, Scientist-to-Be you hear about 'Fatwat Ma9er: Il re9'a3ah' I want your thoughts about that
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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    2) - The simple fact that none of the Islamic countries on earth have developed functional, industrialized, economies.
    Kojax this is a SCIENCE forum, you don't make claims without source and proof.
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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  13. #213  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist-to-be
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    what about the choice of individuals growing up in a muslim country, who have been brought into a muslim family and don't have the choice to leave their religion through threats of beatings, torture and even death?
    Captaincaveman, I don't know why you think that individuals who have been brought up in muslim families cannot choose to leave their religion.
    Let's analyse your question:
    You said threats of beatings, torture and even death.

    Firstly, we said that in most muslim countries Islamic law is not applied, so the possibility of death is eliminated.

    secondly, let's say I decide to leave Islam...who is going to beat me up?
    my parents? they cannot legally do that as soon as I become of age.
    my husband (if i were married)? I can easily get a divorce, besides a husband who beats his wife would be, in doing that, going against the teachings of islam himself.

    It's obvious then, that whether or not an individual chooses to remain a muslim or not is his own choice.

    Take Biohazard as an example, (s)he said that (s)he was brought up in a religious family, and (s)he chose to leave Islam, and as far as I can tell, (s)he's alive and well :wink: .

    so i take it you haven't read "leaving islam" by ibn warraq, its a best seller

    "All the testimonies here are witnesses to the authors' courage, for a free discussion of Islam remains rare and dangerous, certainly in the Islamic world and even in our politically correct times in the West. A surprising number of the apostates decided to write under their real names, a triumphant gesture of defiance and freedom. Many, on the other hand have chosen to write pseudonymously, and since this is a fact that seems to irritate many in the secular West, I shall briefly indicate the reasons why. Apostasy is still punishable by long prison sentences and even death in many Islamic countries such as Pakistan and Iran, and as many of our authors have relatives in those countries, whom they regularly visit, it is common sense and simple prudence not to use their real names. "
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  14. #214  
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazard
    Im a He and from Kuwait, Scientist-to-Be you hear about 'Fatwat Ma9er: Il re9'a3ah' I want your thoughts about that
    is that code
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    Yes it is a Code, I think your Lip wriggling Smiles are beggining to affect me...maybe its contagious , There was a guy/gal here who was annoyed by those to the point of devoting entire replies because of them, yeah..now thats funny. Don't call the MI6 just yet, Its arabic written in Engish, the numbers signify letters that you dont have and can't pronounce.
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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  16. #216  
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazard
    2) - The simple fact that none of the Islamic countries on earth have developed functional, industrialized, economies.


    Kojax this is a SCIENCE forum, you don't make claims without source and proof.
    Do you know of a developed muslim country? I guess you're from Kuwait, and they're not doing so bad.

    I understand that, in Turkey, for example, there are fully trained engineers driving cabs because they can't get decent work as an engineer. What could define the word "underdeveloped" better than that?
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    I understand that, in Turkey, for example, there are fully trained engineers driving cabs because they can't get decent work as an engineer.
    Well Kojax in Vegas, Strippers and Waitressess are Engineers and Bachelor degree holders...how about that for an argument? There is Decent work as Engineers (Lets be rational!) but it doesnt pay as Lucratively or as easily

    What could define the word "underdeveloped" better than that?.
    Its not the words Undeveloped, non-functional or "UnderDeveloped" that annoys me its the use of 'None of the Islamic countries...'

    Its like saying: All of the Americas (South & North) are Undeveloped, simply because some countries there arn't
    or saying in the same context: All of the Christian Countries are Highly Developed and Civilised

    You cannot blame the Financial success or failure of a current country by there religeon and Geographic Area

    Do I make my Argument Clear Kojax?
    and kojax um...is the random capitalization annoying? I Had a complaint earlier and I'm getting self-concious
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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  18. #218  
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    Most of those strippers and waitresses were liberal arts majors who got into the real world and found that nobody was willing to pay the big dollars for an european history (middle ages/early renaissancel) major's skills - unless they wanted to get their phd.

    In the USA, the only reason a person with an engineering degree would drive cabs is because they decided they didn't like engineering anymore.

    The reason I bring it up here is because, while religion itself usually wouldn't be an indicator worth mentioning, culture is. Islamic countries tend to allow religion to dominate the entire culture. Christian countries tend to keep it toned down a bit.

    Most countries that are poor are poor because they have cultures that teach the people ethics that inevitably lead to poverty. I could go into a lot of depth as to what aspects of Latin American countries' cultures pretty much guarantee their poverty.
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    Islam doesn't encourage poverty, islam does quite the opposite, it encourages self-improvement and encourages hard work, every person must do his job as best as he can.
    You theory about poverty in countries because of religeon is just unacceptable and not so logical.
    I Got an Idea, Kojax, lets ask this question in the economics and business Section. Post it and we'll move there, how about that?
    "When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defence is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot - the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of the immortal soul" Desmond Morris
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    Islam bases their whole religion on the theory that the Hebrew Bible had become corrupt after the time of Jesus Christ. They say because the Hebrew Bible had become corrupt Allah sent down the perfect word.

    They say this mainly becauser the Old Testament has hundreds of prophecies concerning Jesus. clearly portraying Jesus as the Son of God, the given covenant, the way to salvation, the Messiah; hundreds of years in advance.

    with the discovery of the dead sea scroll's we have proven that the prophecies have been there for centuries before Christ.. there has been no change in the Old Testament, and Jesus Christ fulfills hundreds of prophecies.

    So Islam must step down... the foundation belief of the religion has been proven to be incorrect and a lie......

    Fortunatly Islam which basis their whole faith on the theory that the Hebrew Bible was changed, has been exposed as incorrect with merely one archaelogical discovery. No need to get into the other archaelogical discoveries which expose Islam's lie's and their agenda of hate towards the Jews.

    So Jesus fulfills hundreds of porphecies, Muhammed fulfills none. No one else in history fulfills prophecies like Jesus. No where, ever.

    The majority of Islam is taken from the Bible. But fortunatly when u take the Bible and twist it to fit a new agenda, then the book is no longer going to be historically accurate. well we know the Old Testament is accepted as historically accurate by the majority of historian's today, we know the Old Testament was accepted as historical at the time of Josephus, at the time of constantine. We know the Old Testament was considered historically accurate in ancient times, 500 B.C., 1000 B.C.

    Now Islam has proven to be historically inaccurate with it's dating methods, geography, names, places, events, etc. When Archaelogy has been verifying the Bible with an overwhelming ammount of archaelogical discoveries comming from the middle east every year.

    Also history shows that people living in the now Islamic nations where believers in the Hebrew Bible and it's authenticity. It changed around 500 A.D. But Islam had to get rid of all Biblical documents to perpetuate their hoax. Islamic nations today still block enormous ammounts of information from getting to their children, because they don't want their children getting too smart to know that Islam is nonsense.

    Heck, most people living in Islamic nations think the Holy Bible has 6 books. when it actually has 66. Islam shouldn't need to fear wisdom if they have nothing to hide.

    History has shown the Koran has been tampered with, multitudes of times.

    Faced with even the simplest evidence against Islam, Islam contains no relevency when compared to God's true word and what He has given us in the Holy Bible. Try to find prophecies concerning Muhammed, they are none. Thus Muhammed is nothing compared to Jesus Christ who is the Messiah.

    The scientific revelations people have listed to be in the Koran, are from the Bible. Thus the Bible stated them first and Islam stole them. Just like Islam did with alot of the Bible. The whole He stretches out the earth like a carpet (in the Koran), is taken from the Bible's He stretches out the heavens like a curtain, He stretches out the earth like a curtain.

    May Islam be a perfect example of what will happen if man tries to make a book like God's book the Holy Bible; they fail horribly. Because a Book like the Bible cannot be made without God's guiding hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil393
    ... Because a Book like the Bible cannot be made without God's guiding hand ...
    i suppose we'll have to take your word for it
    there's just 3 words that spring to mind : pot, kettle, black
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil393
    ... Because a Book like the Bible cannot be made without God's guiding hand ...
    i suppose we'll have to take your word for it
    there's just 3 words that spring to mind : pot, kettle, black
    find another book that makes as many prophecies with a flawless reputation for the prophecies being fulfilled. 1/3 of the total text in the Bible is prophecy with a 100% success rate of being fulfilled (thousands of prophecies). Explain how it can happen without God. Explain how you can tell me what's going to happen 2000 years from today, or 5000 years, without God who is omnipotent? The Old Testament has prophecies being fulfilled today, as does the New Testament. why has it not happened anywhere besides the Bible? and how could the Bible have a flawless reputation?

    I mean your saying it's not god's word. But who can tell us what's going to happen in the future? and how can he do it without the omnipotence of God who knows what the future is going to bring? It's not like we're all sitting here looking into the future, and telling our people what's going to occur tomorrow, a week or a year from now nor could we be capable of doing so without an omnipotent creator God.

    No other book besides the Bible does this.. The Koran dosn't do it, Muhammed fulfilled no prophecies. Islams claim Jesus fulfilled no prophecies and the Old Testament was changed, which is exposed as a lie with the Dead Sea Scroll's. the basis of Islamic faith, the reason they say Islam was created is proven to be incoreect. The Hebrew Bible was not changed after Jesus. And Thus Islam is a lie.

    Do you not see how crippling it is to Islam?

    You especially cannot predict what a man is going to do during His lifetime 1000,1500 years in the future. But almost all the prophets of the Old Testament made prophecies which only Jesus fulfilled. Or else we'd have hundreds of religions in the world making prophecies concerning a man and labelling him as the Messiah. Yet only the Bible has done it. Because it Is God's inpired word and you cannot make a book like the Bible without God's guiding hand.

    your post is completely off topic and has nothing to do with a debate or agrument towards my post.

    If you want to learn about the importance of the messianic prophecy and how clearly and geniously it is written, see my post here http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...835471e94322b4
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  23. #223  
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    I didn't expect much better from this thread...from the first post, I saw that it was going to be downhill all the way.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil393
    Islam bases their whole religion on the theory that the Hebrew Bible had become corrupt after the time of Jesus Christ. They say because the Hebrew Bible had become corrupt Allah sent down the perfect word.

    They say this mainly becauser the Old Testament has hundreds of prophecies concerning Jesus. clearly portraying Jesus as the Son of God, the given covenant, the way to salvation, the Messiah; hundreds of years in advance.

    with the discovery of the dead sea scroll's we have proven that the prophecies have been there for centuries before Christ.. there has been no change in the Old Testament, and Jesus Christ fulfills hundreds of prophecies.

    So Islam must step down... the foundation belief of the religion has been proven to be incorrect and a lie......

    Fortunatly Islam which basis their whole faith on the theory that the Hebrew Bible was changed, has been exposed as incorrect with merely one archaelogical discovery. No need to get into the other archaelogical discoveries which expose Islam's lie's and their agenda of hate towards the Jews.

    So Jesus fulfills hundreds of porphecies, Muhammed fulfills none. No one else in history fulfills prophecies like Jesus. No where, ever.
    In fact, there were prophecies about Muhammad in the hebrew bible, and the jews were eagerly awaiting the coming of the next prophet after jesus, but when they discovered that muhammad was an Arab, and not one of themselves, and since they believe that all other races are inferior to themselves, they decided to omit the parts about the coming of muhammad from their bible.
    It's not only muslims who say this, but many christians themselves also say that their bible has been tampered with, mainly at the time of the emperor constantine, who made many ammendments in the christian bible.
    Muslims do believe in the christian bible and the hebrew bible, and that they have been perfectly correct and untampered with at some point in history. However, the ancient holders of both bibles have changed them so that they are now disfunctional and wrong. No historical documents of the correct original version of either bibles exist today.
    Jesus himself said on many occasions that he was not a god or a son of god, but merely a messsenger sent from god to the hebrews, and the he was only able to perform miracles because god gave him that ability.

    The majority of Islam is taken from the Bible. But fortunatly when u take the Bible and twist it to fit a new agenda, then the book is no longer going to be historically accurate. well we know the Old Testament is accepted as historically accurate by the majority of historian's today, we know the Old Testament was accepted as historical at the time of Josephus, at the time of constantine. We know the Old Testament was considered historically accurate in ancient times, 500 B.C., 1000 B.C.

    Now Islam has proven to be historically inaccurate with it's dating methods, geography, names, places, events, etc. When Archaelogy has been verifying the Bible with an overwhelming ammount of archaelogical discoveries comming from the middle east every year.

    Also history shows that people living in the now Islamic nations where believers in the Hebrew Bible and it's authenticity. It changed around 500 A.D. But Islam had to get rid of all Biblical documents to perpetuate their hoax. Islamic nations today still block enormous ammounts of information from getting to their children, because they don't want their children getting too smart to know that Islam is nonsense.

    Heck, most people living in Islamic nations think the Holy Bible has 6 books. when it actually has 66. Islam shouldn't need to fear wisdom if they have nothing to hide.
    Islam doesn't fear wisdom. In fact, all evidence suggests that Christianity is the one religion that has always stood in the way of scientific advancement and the enlightenment of its followers. Islam, on the other hand has always been a huge supporter of science.

    History has shown the Koran has been tampered with, multitudes of times.

    Faced with even the simplest evidence against Islam, Islam contains no relevency when compared to God's true word and what He has given us in the Holy Bible. Try to find prophecies concerning Muhammed, they are none. Thus Muhammed is nothing compared to Jesus Christ who is the Messiah.
    That's because all the parts containing prophecies about muhammad in the bible have been deleted.

    The scientific revelations people have listed to be in the Koran, are from the Bible. Thus the Bible stated them first and Islam stole them. Just like Islam did with alot of the Bible. The whole He stretches out the earth like a carpet (in the Koran), is taken from the Bible's He stretches out the heavens like a curtain, He stretches out the earth like a curtain.
    Have you ever considered the fact that the same God sent both religions, and hence, it is very likely that there would be many similarities between the two holy books?
    Anyway, there are many other miracles in the qura'an that are baffling to those who recognise them like the numerical miracles in the Qura'an (which I will list in a different thread soon).

    May Islam be a perfect example of what will happen if man tries to make a book like God's book the Holy Bible; they fail horribly. Because a Book like the Bible cannot be made without God's guiding hand.
    Maybe Islam isn't exactly at its highest at the moment, but christianity isn't either. Christianity, by no means, gets any credit for the development of western countries, since it seems that any success they might have achieved is because they decided to shun christianity out of science, politics and economics.
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is.
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  25. #225  
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    Yeah. The major difference is that Christianity was able to step out of the way in Europe, after some bickering, but Islam never stepped out of the way in the Middle East. Heck, it's still right there today, blocking progress.
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    Islam doesn't fear wisdom. In fact, all evidence suggests that Christianity is the one religion that has always stood in the way of scientific advancement and the enlightenment of its followers. Islam, on the other hand has always been a huge supporter of science.
    Maybe Islam isn't exactly at its highest at the moment, but christianity isn't either. Christianity, by no means, gets any credit for the development of western countries, since it seems that any success they might have achieved is because they decided to shun christianity out of science, politics and economics.
    This is nonsense. You are trying to deny something that any idiot can see - the Muslim world is underdeveloped compared to Christian countries and has been for centuries. Isaac Newton was a devout Christian. That didn't keep him from being a great scientist. Gregor Mendel was a monk. You are taking maybe one incident like Galileo's heresy trial and trying to generalize to all of Christianity.
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  27. #227  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    this thread is starting to sound like the "my dick is bigger than yours" type of argument - pretty pointless
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  28. #228  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    how about adding this to the mix

    Syrian Deputy Minister of Religious Endowments, Muhammad Abd Al-Sattar Al-Sayyid: AIDS Patients Should Be Stoned before Spreading Their Disease


    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=846

    Palestinian Authority's Mufti Ikrima Sabri Criticizes the West for Treating Husbands Who Have Sex with Their Wives against Their Will as Rapists

    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=678


    Kuwaiti Cleric Tareq Sweidan: Homosexuals Should Be Stoned to Death or Thrown Off a Mountain

    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=674

    Saudi Sheik: "A Wife Needs to Comply with Her Husband's Desires in Bed"

    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=621

    Tsunami Reactions (5)- Head of Saudi Islamic Relief Organization in Mecca Ahmad Al-Mawri'i: Tsunami Disaster A Warning for Those Who Went To Those Places and Their Fellow Sinners

    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=465

    A Discussion on Wife Beating in Islam






    sorry i had to post those while looking for the video on lack of industry in islamic countries, just find it very comical


    well heres a shiek, giving his argument for lack of productivity


    Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi: The Islamic Nation's Problem is That Muslims Do Not Work. The Zionist Gang Has Turned the Desert into an Oasis




    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=645


    theres videos here too, its called memri tv
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
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