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Thread: Religious Wars - "Thou Shall Not Kill" takes yet another beating.

  1. #1 Religious Wars - "Thou Shall Not Kill" takes yet another beating. 
    Forum Sophomore Double Helix's Avatar
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    The Israelis and Hamas are at it again (1). Air strikes and rocket attacks shake the Middle East as the two highly religious groups are killing each other for the same old reason : Mutual hatred.

    One can only wonder why these people, whose religions are intertwined with similar prophets and beliefs, are constantly at each others throats. It seems that such activities are best defined by experts of human behavior, but is there any consensus among them in all this? And shouldn't such experts have to be atheists to arrive at any realistic conclusions?

    Looking at the "Ten Commandments", and the Quran's nearly identical version of them (2), one is compelled to wonder if the leaders of the dominant religions of the world truly believe in their own "Words from God".

    Are they true believers in their religious edicts, or simply use them to control the masses? After all, it would seem that war would be one of the worst sins committed by the children of a "Heavenly Father". This behavior seems to need a major evaluation by a "Psychiatry of Religion". Perhaps a new realm of scientific study is in order.

    How can all these supposedly "Holy People" approve of all this killing if their god says it is sinful? Many of us will never understand how similar religions can degenerate into such hatred, and its endless hypocrisy.



    "Rockets target Tel Aviv after Gaza tower destroyed"

    1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57066275


    "The ten commandments in the Quran"

    2. https://submission.org/The_ten_comma...the_Quran.html


    (It seems likely that "interpretations of convenience" are largely at play with "The Big Ten".)


    Last edited by Double Helix; May 12th, 2021 at 05:07 PM.
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    Its tribalism and competition for territory/resources.

    Religion is just a symptom.

    I feel some people imagine that if we remove religious adherence the world will be a better place.

    (it would be for those of us for whom religious belief is a foreign country)

    But we will always find something to disagree about with our neighbours and if we can't remove ourselves from the situation , the situation will be resolved to the greater satisfaction of one but not normally both parties)

    We will grow out of religion in time ( not in our time sadly) but we may never grow out of conflict.

    I have not studied Peace Studies ,though so perhaps I am wrong and the square can be circled somehow.


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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    We will grow out of religion in time ( not in our time sadly) but we may never grow out of conflict.
    It seems that some of these religious "activities" are growing, while others may be receding. Perhaps we will see some flux in the variety and severity of such afflictions.

    Whatever happens, you are probably right about the most important aspect, that "we may never grow out of conflict".
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    I suspect the conflict is essentially tribal, using religion as a justification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Looking at the "Ten Commandments", and the Quran's nearly identical version of them (2), one is compelled to wonder if the leaders of the dominant religions of the world truly believe in their own "Words from God".
    They won't be leaders for much longer if they try to interfere.
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    I swear the ME needs a boatload of psychiatrists/psychologists more than religion. You’ve heard of mass hysteria, well why not mass PTSD? These people live every day under constant fear of death and many have witnessed the brutality of human conflict. To have religions that preach hate, vengeance, death and sacrifice just adds to the neuroses. Maybe they’re just mentally scarred beyond any known way of reversal.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I swear the ME needs a boatload of psychiatrists/psychologists more than religion.
    Based on the history of humans and their penchant for conflict and chaos, it seems likely that the entire human race needs a boatload of psychiatrists/psychologists.

    And the latter will need some of their own, if the dust ever settles over it all......
    Last edited by Double Helix; May 26th, 2021 at 02:53 PM.
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    I see Dawkins gives the Almighty yet another thrashing in his new book 'Books do Furnish a Life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I see Dawkins gives the Almighty yet another thrashing in his new book 'Books do Furnish a Life.
    Was going to use the term "thrashing" in my title to this thread, but stuck with "beating" for these all-too-common religious wars.

    "Thrashings" are for more significant aspects, just like "The Almighty". Had not heard of this new book, so thanks!

    Richard Dawkins* is the atheist's atheist. And being a top notch scientist gives him lots of credibility in the never-ending fight against the religious fanatics and fools of the world.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins
    Last edited by Double Helix; May 26th, 2021 at 02:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Richard Dawkins* is the atheist's atheist.
    Dawkins wrote a book called The Devil's Chaplain which came from Darwin.
    But what Dawkins doesn't say is that the devil's chaplain was the Reverend Robert Taylor (theist turned atheist).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_(Radical)

    You can download his books, I recommend "The Diegesis" and "The Devil's Chaplain."
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    Love Dawkins, I think evolution is the real deal and I love the science but I can only take so much of the constant hammering on theism. I get it but not sure if Dawkins is having any effect on the beliefs of theists.

    Saw one doc where he takes a classroom full of god fearing students to look for fossils on a beach.They find an amazing ammonite but even after he describes how it got there etc, it didn’t seem to affect the students one iota.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Just for clarification the commandments says, "you shall not commit murder". Justified killing, such as during war time is just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    but I can only take so much of the constant hammering on theism. I get it but not sure if Dawkins is having any effect on the beliefs of theists.
    The theists do plenty of bashing on science in general, with no empirical data to back it up. Creationists have largely set the stage for all that.

    Tit for tat, I suppose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Origin View Post
    Just for clarification the commandments says, "you shall not commit murder". Justified killing, such as during war time is just fine.
    Some of us are clearly not experts in the bible or related texts. Are there examples, in the most sacred texts, where wars are "justified" ?

    Or is it as noted before :

    It seems likely that "interpretations of convenience" are largely at play with "The Big Ten".
    Last edited by Double Helix; May 26th, 2021 at 11:11 AM.
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    If the Gospel Coalition can interpret/justify God’s greatness and goodness in Psalm 137 then the Ten Commandments are mere child’s play for believers. In comparison to the Big 10, the blessing of one who dashes children’s heads upon rocks is more troubling but in the end signifies how wonderful God is.

    https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/co...ong-scripture/

    I suspect some day Psalm 137 will disappear from the Bible but in the meantime, the Gospel Coalition will guide you past it. Some divine text is, without saying, bizarre and contradictory in the Bible. Usually described as beyond human comprehension. For me if some scribble is too much for us then an entire Bible is suspect. So even though we kill, the commandment may not mean we shouldn’t, something like that.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Love Dawkins, I think evolution is the real deal and I love the science but I can only take so much of the constant hammering on theism. I get it but not sure if Dawkins is having any effect on the beliefs of theists.
    I think he is having an effect. Theists are hardening their stance. Same way as taking it on the chin for Jesus.
    Dawkins is a good writer with his use of prose and metaphor but he sits on the back of giants in biology.
    IMO he is not a brilliant atheist either. I would prefer Thomas Paine's Age of Reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Some of us are clearly not experts in the bible or related texts. Are there examples, in the most sacred texts, where wars are "justified" ?
    Of course, this is not something that is hidden in the bible. Surely you have heard of the walls of Jercho falling. This is just one of many battles where God even assisted the Hebrews.

    Here is a list of wars in the bible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If the Gospel Coalition can interpret/justify God’s greatness and goodness in Psalm 137 then the Ten Commandments are mere child’s play for believers. In comparison to the Big 10, the blessing of one who dashes children’s heads upon rocks is more troubling but in the end signifies how wonderful God is.

    https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/co...ong-scripture/

    I suspect some day Psalm 137 will disappear from the Bible but in the meantime, the Gospel Coalition will guide you past it. Some divine text is, without saying, bizarre and contradictory in the Bible. Usually described as beyond human comprehension. For me if some scribble is too much for us then an entire Bible is suspect. So even though we kill, the commandment may not mean we shouldn’t, something like that.

    Wow!!

    Psalm 137 sounds pretty brutal. Clearly contradicts one of the "The Big Ten" (that of this thread). But since this starts with the Hebrews in exile from Babylonian captivity, perhaps the retribution of "eye for an eye" supersedes the "The Big Ten" as dictated by the "The Almighty". Surely he or she does not call all the shots, but may exact his/her own retribution at some later time.

    The last three verses of Psalm 137 refers in part to killing the children of the Babylonian in an act of revenge:

    Quoting from (1):

    "The psalm ends with prophetic predictions of violent revenge.

    7. Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

    8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

    9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. "

    This reference (1) goes on to note that :

    "After the Second Vatican Council, the last three verses of the psalm were removed from Catholic liturgical books because of their cruelty perceived to be incompatible with the gospel message." (ya think?)

    and :

    "Similarly, the Prayer Book of the Anglican Church of Canada has also removed these verses."

    end quotes

    However, they have not yet removed it from the King James version of the bible (2), retaining the designation of "The Final Draft". It seems unlikely it will ever be removed since that might lead to other parts being editing. After all, it is supposed to be "The Word of God", and who but he/she should be doing any editing?! Again, selective interpretations are the perfect diversions from literal interpretations (when "required").

    Time will tell, but the hard-core believers likely will want to stay with The Final Draft, regardless of the apparent contradictions.

    And of course we must all remember that ultimate dodge: "The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways".


    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_137

    2. https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...s-Chapter-137/
    Last edited by Double Helix; May 27th, 2021 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origin View Post
    Surely you have heard of the walls of Jercho falling. This is just one of many battles where God even assisted the Hebrews.

    Here is a list of wars in the bible.

    Jericho did not fall by the horns of the Israelites, with or without the help of a god.

    A major archeological study at Jericho (1) establshed that the city was destroyed by an Egyptian campaign in ca. 1500 BCE.

    Quoting from (1):

    "Kathleen Kenyon re-excavated the site over 1952–1958 and demonstrated that the destruction occurred c.1500 BCE during a well-attested Egyptian campaign of that period, and that Jericho had been deserted throughout the mid-late 13th century BCE, the supposed time of Joshua's battle.[6] Kenyon's work was corroborated in 1995 by radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction level to the late 17th or 16th centuries BCE."

    "Scholars agree almost unanimously that the Book of Joshua holds little historical value.[8] Its origin lies in a time far removed from the times that it depicts,[9] and its intention is primarily theological in detailing how Israel and her leaders are judged by their obedience to the teachings and laws (the covenant) set down in the Book of Deuteronomy."

    end quote

    Based on this alone, one can only wonder how accurately other religious wars are presented, or if they were even "sanctioned" by "The Almighty".

    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho
    Last edited by Double Helix; May 27th, 2021 at 03:33 PM.
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    Psalm 137 is nothing compared to God's near extinction of the whole human race and animal kingdom in the Flood.
    We should be so grateful for Noah and his family who must have toiled day and night.
    Noah's Ark has been described as the biggest bullshit story in the Bible, but I think it's worthy of at least a public holiday.
    How many people has the evil Satan killed in the Bible? About a dozen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Psalm 137 is nothing compared to God's near extinction of the whole human race and animal kingdom in the Flood.
    We should be so grateful for Noah and his family who must have toiled day and night.
    Noah's Ark has been described as the biggest bullshit story in the Bible, but I think it's worthy of at least a public holiday.
    How many people has the evil Satan killed in the Bible? About a dozen.

    Yes, but The Almighty can do anything he/she wants - hence the name! He/she cannot commit sins as they are the ones who define them and then exact a price for such acts. Noah's Ark
    surely ranks up there as one of the biggest BS stories. The logistics alone drops it from any rational consideration.

    But "The Creation" beats them all, hands down, and in only six days. That fool story of cosmology taking billions of years is a joke by comparison. Billions of years?! Who is kidding who here?

    That Magic Wand is a very powerful instrument.

    But for some of us, Satan is the biggest hero of this whole fantasy. For me, Milton sealed that for all eternity!


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    But "The Creation" beats them all, hands down, and in only six days. That fool story of cosmology taking billions of years is a joke by comparison. Billions of years?! Who is kidding who here?
    Big Bang cosmology and a universe from nothing?
    How ludicrous is that!
    Then nobody to turn on the lights (the E/M force) or create gravity.
    I'm beginning to think the theists and those who lean to the strong anthropic principle might have a case after all.
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    I think nature is an unimaginative cruelty for many. Unfortunately you can’t escape it. The life/death cycle.... wash, rinse and repeat. In some weird irony, death enables life. Has nature become punishment for sins? I wonder where COVID ranks with the religious theist....is it a construct of a god or devil?

    If you choose devil then have you just given this bad guy more power than God? Seems everything the devil throws at us, the good guy has the answer for it, like kill the damn thing. Lord knows, we need to kill to survive here. Thanks Big Guy. Next time you see that peace activist walking the street just remember he has to kill to survive. Shit, I just stepped on an ant., sorry about that. Imagine how many ants there might be if they weren’t stepped on every day.

    Seems that killing won’t ever stop the killing, otherwise it’s curtains. Oh look, there’s a robin tearing a worm to shreds. You know, I’ve actually worn out my usefulness here on Earth. I spent my last cartridge with the last child I fathered. However I’m still killing other things that keep me going besides the unfortunate ants. In fact any bug trying to subsist off me usually meets the cruel fate of a slap to the affected area. Poor little buggers, just trying to survive and then whacked out of existence. Hey but hey, the dead feed the ants and shredded worms are digested and eventually fertilize the plants I kill. Killing has its usefulness.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I think nature is an unimaginative cruelty for many. Unfortunately you can’t escape it. The life/death cycle.... wash, rinse and repeat. In some weird irony, death enables life. Has nature become punishment for sins? I wonder where COVID ranks with the religious theist....is it a construct of a god or devil?

    If you choose devil then have you just given this bad guy more power than God? Seems everything the devil throws at us, the good guy has the answer for it, like kill the damn thing. Lord knows, we need to kill to survive here. Thanks Big Guy. Next time you see that peace activist walking the street just remember he has to kill to survive. Shit, I just stepped on an ant., sorry about that. Imagine how many ants there might be if they weren’t stepped on every day.

    Seems that killing won’t ever stop the killing, otherwise it’s curtains. Oh look, there’s a robin tearing a worm to shreds. You know, I’ve actually worn out my usefulness here on Earth. I spent my last cartridge with the last child I fathered. However I’m still killing other things that keep me going besides the unfortunate ants. In fact any bug trying to subsist off me usually meets the cruel fate of a slap to the affected area. Poor little buggers, just trying to survive and then whacked out of existence. Hey but hey, the dead feed the ants and shredded worms are digested and eventually fertilize the plants I kill. Killing has its usefulness.
    Well ,unless you entertain the belief that life enables a (collective) consciousness to "come along for the ride" and its possibilities are just so great that it is ,in the grand scheme of things worth the apparent cruelty required to prosper.

    Maybe ,after an age (a blink of an eye in the lifespan of the universe) this advanced form of life can find a way to continue to progress.

    You can also argue that the cruelty you observe as the robin tears the worm is mostly in your mind and even more advanced forms of life suffer far less than we imagine ,equipped as they are with their own systems to largely avoid this.

    But did I say "grand scheme" ? Maybe "bigger picture " would be better.We have no choice but to participate in this "gory" fight for survival maybe the best we can do is make thee best of it.

    I lost an old friend some weeks back.Had not been in contact for 50 years and was looking forward to renewing contact when I was told he had died from a brain tumour after a rough 15 months. Hard to understand and perhaps better not to try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I'm beginning to think the theists and those who lean to the strong anthropic principle might have a case after all.
    Let's not get too carried away here, although there is understandable sympathy about this view. "Out of Nothing", or "The Magic Wand"? Take your pick.

    But the Big Bang has lots of empirical evidence to support it. Where it all came from may or may not be a rational question. Not all questions have answers because they are not all rational. This could be where the anthropic principle is at its finest. Yet science provides us with the confidence that a Big Bang actually occurred, so at least we have something real to work with.

    Deity worship is based on faith of stories in old books. There is no empirical evidence to support any of it.
    Last edited by Double Helix; June 2nd, 2021 at 11:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Deity worship is based on faith of stories in old books. There is no empirical evidence to support any of it.
    So what fired up the equations, or did they simply fire up themselves?

    There do seem to be many scientists who believe this could not have happened on its own.
    One possibility is a construct beyond our universe - a sort of metaverse which would be beyond our logic.

    But in the case of a god that loves us all, yet allows evil and threatens us with hell fire if we don't believe or pick the wrong brand of religion, then that has to be seriously challenged.
    For example, I'm not a Christian but I am at least a nominal Catholic. According to other Christian faiths Catholics are not Christians. That's because they back away from a literal belief in the Bible.
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    I’m a little microbe, one of a group that makes up the first life forms on Earth. I dwell on the rim of a black smoker in the depths of the ocean. Life is good here, everything I need to survive just wells up from below and it’s plenty warm. Starting to get a little crowded however and from what I understand some of us have been forced to live down the slope where food isn’t as plentiful and it’s cooler. No idea how they manage down there. I feel like I’m in Shangri-La, why am I so privileged? News is that some of our group disappeared last night. And so it began
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I’m a little microbe, one of a group that makes up the first life forms on Earth. I dwell on the rim of a black smoker in the depths of the ocean. Life is good here, everything I need to survive just wells up from below and it’s plenty warm. Starting to get a little crowded however and from what I understand some of us have been forced to live down the slope where food isn’t as plentiful and it’s cooler. No idea how they manage down there. I feel like I’m in Shangri-La, why am I so privileged? News is that some of our group disappeared last night. And so it began
    Get a permit and set up a stall.There is a great future in barbecued shrimp I hear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I’m a little microbe, one of a group that makes up the first life forms on Earth. I dwell on the rim of a black smoker in the depths of the ocean. Life is good here, everything I need to survive just wells up from below and it’s plenty warm. Starting to get a little crowded however and from what I understand some of us have been forced to live down the slope where food isn’t as plentiful and it’s cooler. No idea how they manage down there. I feel like I’m in Shangri-La, why am I so privileged? News is that some of our group disappeared last night. And so it began
    Get a permit and set up a stall.There is a great future in barbecued shrimp I hear.
    I was thinking more along the lines of a Lucy Schroeder-esque philosophy booth.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    One possibility is a construct beyond our universe - a sort of metaverse which would be beyond our logic.
    An "origin" seems beyond our logic. There is no "need" for "where it all came from".
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Deity worship is based on faith of stories in old books. There is no empirical evidence to support any of it.
    So what fired up the equations, or did they simply fire up themselves?

    There do seem to be many scientists who believe this could not have happened on its own.
    One possibility is a construct beyond our universe - a sort of metaverse which would be beyond our logic.

    But in the case of a god that loves us all, yet allows evil and threatens us with hell fire if we don't believe or pick the wrong brand of religion, then that has to be seriously challenged.
    For example, I'm not a Christian but I am at least a nominal Catholic. According to other Christian faiths Catholics are not Christians. That's because they back away from a literal belief in the Bible.
    Untrue. It's only a few mad fundies that think Catholics are not Christian. Furthermore it's only fundies that think the bible has to be all taken literally. The main Christian churches don't think this and have never thought it. You can go right back to Origen in 200AD to find that, even then, Christian thinkers read parts of the bible allegorically.

    But your question about "firing up the equations" is a good one, I think. Spinoza and Einstein seemed to equate God with the intrinsic order in the universe - "the equations", if you like, though actually the equations are just man-made models of the part of that order which we perceive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    An "origin" seems beyond our logic. There is no "need" for "where it all came from".
    Stephen Wolfram has argued the universe behaves like a computer program.

    https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/...its-beautiful/
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