Notices
Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: The way religions start.

  1. #1 The way religions start. 
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    A mammal who displays some sort of supernatural power.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/10/prince-philip-south-sea-island-god-duke-of-edinburgh


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Would have been more supernatural to worship the pig and send it a prince-killing club instead.

    Believing a god would enjoy clubbing a pig must sound rational to the natives.


    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,915
    I remember back in the 70s spending an afternoon with chums avoiding contact while smoking grass** on the occasion of the visit of his offspring to our town.

    The gatherings were around every corner and we had to adjust our trajectories accordingly.

    I also,several years later met an Aussie in Scotland who cleared the big D of E off his land when they were hunting with dogs on it .
    "You should be proud to do this for us" he bleated (or words to that effect)

    **fairly safe to do then in a privileged university town.
    Last edited by geordief; April 12th, 2021 at 08:36 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Did PP actually cause a new religion to begin or was he swallowed up by or added to an existing one? Just wondering about the spirit references. Were the spirits connected to a pre-existing religion?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,915
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Did PP actually cause a new religion to begin or was he swallowed up by or added to an existing one? Just wondering about the spirit references. Were the spirits connected to a pre-existing religion?
    Don't know ,but it would have to be the latter,surely or else we are in all kinds of trouble.

    But ,yes the study of this religion he seems to have been affixed to might be more interesting than PP's actual induction.

    That said ,it is pretty interesting anyway. What did they see in him? An arch potential kiddy fiddler perhaps** or maybe he had a particularly inbred family tree since the gods were known for that kind of thing.

    **bit of a throwaway comment-I don't hold the church responsible for that behaviour to a huge degree,although I was careful when I was a altar boy as they already had that reputation back then.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Did PP actually cause a new religion to begin or was he swallowed up by or added to an existing one? Just wondering about the spirit references. Were the spirits connected to a pre-existing religion?
    Don't know ,but it would have to be the latter,surely or else we are in all kinds of trouble.

    But ,yes the study of this religion he seems to have been affixed to might be more interesting than PP's actual induction.

    That said ,it is pretty interesting anyway. What did they see in him? An arch potential kiddy fiddler perhaps** or maybe he had a particularly inbred family tree since the gods were known for that kind of thing.

    **bit of a throwaway comment-I don't hold the church responsible for that behaviour to a huge degree,although I was careful when I was a altar boy as they already had that reputation back then.
    I think honorary deity status may have been applied to PP by natives for mainly selfish reasons, get more stuff. If the religion allowed it, and I think of prophets & messiahs when I say that, then it’s not a start for a new religion. If it didn’t work out then there was always the pig club, a piece of wood for a false god. IOW stay away if you can’t deliver or else wood is in your future. Have read similar story somewhere.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    What did they see in him?
    In the unlikely event that aliens visit earth I'm sure they would be looked upon as gods by some.

    Similar to the John Frum cult.

    I doubt if remote islanders would have read a book like Chariots of the Gods and be aware that some Europeans took this seriously.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Just as important....how do religions end?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-religions-die

    Excerpt:
    . But there is another threat to organised and literate religions, which they certainly treat as potentially fatal. That's heresy: wrong belief and a misapplication of the sacred. In this context one of the most interesting texts is CS Lewis's denunciation of female priests. They would, he said, constitute a new religion. Yet, when they came, we can see that they appeared as a simple inevitable, development of the old one. They are still priests. And it is this fact which illustrates better than anything the living and evolutionary nature of religions of all sorts. There could no more be a first Christian than there could be a first homo sapiens. We can see religions have been born, and have died, but the moments of birth and death will always be mysterious and shrouded.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,915
    Will there be a cult of P Charles now that the Dear Leader has gone to Heaven (wonder if he was a believer ,actually....if I cared)?

    Religions could die out when all adherents died and noone noticed.

    These days though they would live on on someone's hard drive (or in the Cloud)
    Last edited by geordief; April 18th, 2021 at 07:42 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Will there be a cult of P Charles now that the Dear Leader has gone to Heaven (wonder if he was a believer ,actually....If I cared)?

    Religions could die out when all adherents died and noone noticed.

    These days though they would live on on someone's hard drive (or in the Cloud)
    Saw one bit where tv commentators said PP designed his own funeral. In the week that followed his demise, could Liz have altered a few things to make it look like he believed? Or do any of them believe?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    4,915
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Will there be a cult of P Charles now that the Dear Leader has gone to Heaven (wonder if he was a believer ,actually....If I cared)?

    Religions could die out when all adherents died and noone noticed.

    These days though they would live on on someone's hard drive (or in the Cloud)


    Saw one bit where tv commentators said PP designed his own funeral. In the week that followed his demise, could Liz have altered a few things to make it look like he believed? Or do any of them believe?
    There used to be a very good interviewer called Anthony Clare who did a series of interviews with prominent people (not sure if they were always prominent) that seemed to bring out their interior thought processes .

    They were called "In the Psychiatrist's Chair"( think Jimmy Savile was one of his interviewees)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Clare
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b065xq81
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b065xq81

    Would be interesting to have had someone like Anthony Clare to do an interview of the Royals (then again it is probably a self referencing group and possibly very uninteresting despite the occasional dramas)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    It's not difficult to prove Christianity is false because it fails at the very first hurdle.
    Jesus was a man born of a ghost (or spirit) and a human female.
    But for a man to exist he has to inherit 50% of his DNA from a male and 50% from a female.
    Therefore he could not have existed.
    Further evidence there was no such person as Jesus lies in the fact that the name Jesus was a Greco-Roman translation of Yeshua.

    There has to be at least a belief in belief and a hope that your life will not be in vain. If your saviour is crucified, as many of them were, then all the better.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wo...cified_Saviors
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It's not difficult to prove Christianity is false because it fails at the very first hurdle.
    Jesus was a man born of a ghost (or spirit) and a human female.
    But for a man to exist he has to inherit 50% of his DNA from a male and 50% from a female.
    Therefore he could not have existed.
    Further evidence there was no such person as Jesus lies in the fact that the name Jesus was a Greco-Roman translation of Yeshua.

    There has to be at least a belief in belief and a hope that your life will not be in vain. If your saviour is crucified, as many of them were, then all the better.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wo...cified_Saviors
    Jesus was a n ordinary human being living in the Jewish society Of his time. The Romans tended to deify people. Paul is the creator of Christianity and deified Jesus.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Not sure how some religions start, but it seems likely that most of them will end in a similar fashion - fading away.

    The latest Gallup poll on this is rather revealing : "In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999."

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/...time.aspx#main

    Most of the biggest religions seem to be on the way out, although this poll was limited to the U.S. Perhaps science has something to do with this. In any event, it seems unlikely that new religions will take their place.

    And no, science is not a religion. It is the study and understanding of nature based on real observations, not "divine revelations".

    It would appear that the real story of nature is uprooting the old stories from those musty old books and scrolls. Just as good really as many wars and human conflicts are caused by such divine revelations.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    And no, science is not a religion. It is the study and understanding of nature based on real observations, not "divine revelations".
    Ah, but there is 'proof of God' because Christians have 2 compelling arguments.

    #1 Why is there something rather than nothing?
    As if Darwin never existed or maybe they've never tried to understand it.

    #2 There are no atheists in foxholes.
    This argument is about as watertight as a colander.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    And no, science is not a religion. It is the study and understanding of nature based on real observations, not "divine revelations".
    Ah, but there is 'proof of God' because Christians have 2 compelling arguments.

    #1 Why is there something rather than nothing?
    As if Darwin never existed or maybe they've never tried to understand it.

    #2 There are no atheists in foxholes.
    This argument is about as watertight as a colander.
    The Christian "proof" is not.

    There is no defined proof for "why" things happen. "Why" is simply a question that some feel requires an answer.

    It would seem that "why" is a two-way street, and both ways are dead-ends. For the Christians et al., it leads to some divine source of light and glory, or whatever.

    For the rest of us, it leads to only one good answer vs. various deities: " Because that's the way it is." We might as well call it "The Law of The Way It Is "


    On the right street however - which is science - it only leads to "how" things happen. And there are many streets for "how" things happen. Finding the right streets is obviously the key to success. Success of science is the proof of all that comes out of it, from flying robots on Mars, to warp speed vaccines. Stuff really happens on Science Street!

    And there are likely more atheists in foxholes than anywhere else.
    Last edited by Double Helix; April 23rd, 2021 at 11:36 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    #1 Why is there something rather than nothing?
    And yet religion has a tendency to rely on whatís above and separate from the physical, with faith replacing what amounts to no evidence for the metaphysical. Isnít that a little like something from nothing?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Certainly the definition of "something" is open to various interpretations.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Certainly the definition of "something" is open to various interpretations.
    If a theistic religion is going to get started then I think it would require a few metaphysical things like god(s), realms, demons, angels etc.

    At some point ‘maybe there is’ becomes ‘must be there’ regardless of real evidence? Is this where convincing fabricated/perceived evidence takes over?
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; April 23rd, 2021 at 07:29 AM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Certainly the definition of "something" is open to various interpretations.
    If a theistic religion is going to get started then I think it would require a few metaphysical things like god(s), realms, demons, angels etc.

    At some point ‘maybe there is’ becomes ‘must be there’ regardless of real evidence? Is this where convincing fabricated/perceived evidence takes over?

    It would seem you have proposed not only the start of religions, but perhaps their "evolution" as well.

    "Maybe there is" seems like embryo-genesis of a religion, followed by its birth and growth as revealed by "convincing fabricated/perceived evidence."

    We could call it "The Shepherd and the Sheep Theory" on the origin and evolution of religions.

    Almost sounds Darwinian.......
    Last edited by Double Helix; April 23rd, 2021 at 11:39 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    Do religions evolve into something with more beauty and complexity?
    I don't think so. They are only reinterpreted for the times.
    So when I was young I remember Christianity being all about the WRATH of GOD. You had to be very careful about what you said and even what you were thinking, otherwise God would know.
    Pass a church today in England and there is likely to be a poster proclaiming GOD's LOVE. The two are incompatible.

    As for how religions end we may be starting to see the end in sight.
    Pandemics and climate change don't seem to respond to prayer.
    This was a good point made by Jerry Coyne in Faith vs Fact.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Do religions evolve into something with more beauty and complexity?
    It would seem that the ancient polytheistic Egyptian religion(s) evolved, when one considers the complexity of the theology involved. They had a lot of deities with many tasks. Hard to believe it was all drawn up in one go.

    Monotheistic religions maybe did not evolve much, but the polytheistic ones likely required time to understand the "true path", and develop (invent) various gods, for various purposes, to walk that path. And wars of conquest likely resulted in the fusion of some religious beliefs.

    Recall that the Pharaoh Akhenaten (1351–1334 BC) cast aside all the ancient gods but Aten (1,2), the "solar disc god", much to the dismay of the priests, who were very much locked into the polytheistic beliefs that had reigned for several thousand years before him. For these priests, he was a heretic. Most of what he built was destroyed after his passing, to eliminate such thinking from the masses, and the pharaohs returned to the "true path" of polytheism. Clearly religions can evolve to varying extremes.

    Indeed, Akhenaten declared himself born of Aten, i.e. "the Son of the one and only true God" (sound familiar?). Interestingly, the Christians and others followed with similar beliefs, of how a man could become the son of some deity. It seems there must be some form of evolution at the start of some religions, before it becomes solidified (or not) into a uniform dogma.

    But as Akhenaten demonstrated, it could be converted into an altered form, even after considerable evolution into the grand religion that dominated most of ancient Egyptian spiritual beliefs. Even the Mormons would later show that Christianity might "evolve" to some extent (for those who believed it).

    It all depends on who is believing what, or so it would seem.......


    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten


    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten
    Last edited by Double Helix; April 24th, 2021 at 10:45 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,722
    Seems every time I kill a goat, good fortune is sure to follow. One thing religion may need in order to begin is coincidence(s).
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,783
    Christianity began to spread after the Romans thought their gods had abandoned them.
    They still lost their empire.
    Islam took root because the Arabs thought that God had ignored them.

    How they keep going is reinterpretation and concealment of scripture.
    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas would be a good example of the latter.
    Last edited by ox; April 26th, 2021 at 09:58 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    How they keep going is reinterpretation and concealment of scripture.
    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas would be a good example of the latter.
    The King James Version certainly had some serious variations before it.

    It should now be known as the "The Final Draft", with further changes unlikely (at least for strict interpretationists, however that is defined).
    Last edited by Double Helix; April 26th, 2021 at 03:51 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Are There Scientific Theories as to Why Religions Start?
    By zinjanthropos in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: August 27th, 2014, 10:06 AM
  2. Old religions
    By GoldenRatio in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: February 15th, 2014, 09:45 PM
  3. Are all religions right? RELIGIOUS ONLY
    By Quantime in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: December 7th, 2012, 06:39 PM
  4. Replies: 13
    Last Post: May 2nd, 2010, 12:41 AM
  5. Accepting all religions...
    By Hanuka in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: July 9th, 2008, 12:10 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •