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Thread: One of God's Greatest Mysteries

  1. #1 One of God's Greatest Mysteries 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Or maybe He's just having a little fun.

    Anyway why has God gone through so much trouble to make everything appear older than it really is?

    Of course I'm talking about the universe and to some extent Earth. No matter how hard science tries to get it right they are billions of years off the mark according to creationists, who despite everything known are more knowledgeable on this subject than anyone. Mind you the same creationists who benefit from scientific discovery will also discount any scientific evidence that points out the universe is very, very old.

    Do dinosaur fossils have no other purpose than to fool scientists, some of whom are the most intelligent creatures that ever walked on two legs? And what's with the Doppler effect? Blueshift, redshift, what are they, a symbol of God's humorous side?

    Still the best trick was the creationist himself. Doesn't sit right with me, God using people like that just to keep us from what....progressing too fast?

    There's many more examples of God's attempts to fool us on this age of the universe thing. My only question is why?


    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Forum Senior anand_kapadia's Avatar
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    Or maybe He's just having a little fun.
    I think by mistake you have posted the reply of a post as a new post.


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  4. #3  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand_kapadia
    Or maybe He's just having a little fun.
    I think by mistake you have posted the reply of a post as a new post.
    Not that I'm aware of.

    My opening line was a continuation of the thread title and yes that was intentional. If there is another thread with this title or subject matter then I apologize for missing it and if mods want to scrap mine then that's the way it goes.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anand_kapadia
    Or maybe He's just having a little fun.
    I think by mistake you have posted the reply of a post as a new post.
    No it is typical of zinj and others to start threads which are just a continuation of their neverending rant against what they perceive to be the insanity of Christianity (and by extention the insanity of all religion in general). Often in cases like this particular post, the particular thing he is ranting about is a fustration that many Christians share concerning the more irrational examples of those that call themselves Christian. But zinj and company make no nevermind because they actually delight in such Christians as a proof positive that all of Christianity is bascially irrational. I think this sort of "proof" even helps to maintain their own delusion that unlike the Christians, they themselves are perfectly rational.
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    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
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    well, if you think it is irrational, would you care to offer the answer?
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  7. #6  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    well, if you think it is irrational, would you care to offer the answer?
    Well I do not share the delusion of zinj and these others by thinking that I am utterly rational as compared to those who disagree with me. Reason is a blunt and limited tool, whose main use is to justify and make sense of those things we decide to believe in. In support of this task we hunt for reasonable sounding (but unprovable) premises that allow us to construct an argument that supports our position.

    You can find an introductory statement of my belief in the thread entitled "What do you believe." But to sum it up, I am a Christian. However I am also a scientist, a philosopher of metaphysics, an existentialist, a mystic, and a pragmatist. In other words, I have an enormous variety of answers to an enormous variety of questions. What questions in particular did you have in mind?

    P.S. I like your photograph entitled "snowstorm". I don't think I have seen anything quite like it before.

    P.P.S. Christianity applies to questions about God and scripture. Science applies to that which is objectively observable or measurable. Metaphsics studies the nature of reality (but my answers in this case are exclusively my own). Existentialism applies to the problems of human existence. Mysticism applies to the limits of the use of reason. Pragmatism applies to the means by which knowledge is acquired.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
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    Well i think i maybe able to answer that question in a logical and rational way. The devil did it to turn us into nonbelievers Why else would you find bones that appear to be 50'odd millions of years old?
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
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  9. #8  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    well, if you think it is irrational, would you care to offer the answer?
    Contrary to what followed, Mitch knows exactly what question needed answering. In his own fashion he delicately maneuvered himself into a position far removed from the extreme crackpot end of the Christian spectrum. That's fair.

    Mitch is a scientist and evidence, hard and compelling, is dificult to ignore. I believe that he doesn't agree with the so many thousand year thing. I don't think it would be fair to ask him to explain one of God's greatest mysteries.

    Is denying the evidence of a 4.5 billion year old Earth any different than denying the evidence of the holocaust ever taking place? Why should we allow creationist banter without counter intelligence?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  10. #9  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    well, if you think it is irrational, would you care to offer the answer?
    Contrary to what followed, Mitch knows exactly what question needed answering. In his own fashion he delicately maneuvered himself into a position far removed from the extreme crackpot end of the Christian spectrum. That's fair.
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Mitch is a scientist and evidence, hard and compelling, is dificult to ignore. I believe that he doesn't agree with the so many thousand year thing. I don't think it would be fair to ask him to explain one of God's greatest mysteries.
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Is denying the evidence of a 4.5 billion year old Earth any different than denying the evidence of the holocaust ever taking place? Why should we allow creationist banter without counter intelligence?
    Personally I often find it difficult to grace them with a reply. I prefer to limit my responses to those with some shred of sense. Which unfortunately often gives people the wrong idea about where I stand.

    Don't get me wrong. I do sympathize with Christians who consider their spiritual commitments to be of greater importance than understanding science. But their efforts to evangelize "atheistic" scientists does get to be rather ludicrous.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Recently some guy named Ron Wyatt claims to have dug up the Ark of the Covenant. Apparently he has it in a museum of his.

    Anyway how does a creationist confirm that the A of C is at least 2000 years old without using the scientific methods or machinery available? How does a creationist know it is not a forgery? For all we know Wyatt didn't even dig it up or he dug it up after putting it there earlier.


    He can use expert advice but from whom and then how did they know? Is there a date stamped on it? Just curious.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  12. #11  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
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    Who says believers in God eschew all of science? We are very happy that carbon dating has shown the Dead Sea Scrolls to come from before the birth of Christ, thus completely debunking any idea that someone went back and rewrote the Old Testament to conform to later history.

    The work of Ron Wyatt remains highly questionable even among Christian scholars. His "discovery" was some 30 years ago, so it is hardly "recent." If there had been anything to it, his work would have remained at the forefront of discussion among Christian and Jewish archeological studies. When someone "discovers" something and 30 years later, it is still not brought into public view, it has no credibility.

    One wonders why this old debunked crap is consistently brought up by non-believers. Even the recent History Channel show on the Tomb of Jesus is old, old news and was thoroughly discarded way back when. I guess when you can't find anything else, you have to go dig up some old non-issue.

    I know of no area of science with which Christians typically disagree other than perhaps the Theory of Evolution with which Christians do often question the validity and meaning of the science involved. In other areas where Christianity and science may wrangle, it more revolves around morality issues than the science involved. But when it comes to actual proven science, there is hardly any conflict.

    The age of the universe and earth are topics which some Christians challenge, but not all Christians believe in a six 24-hour creation scenario. Most educated Christians conclude Genesis could not be talking about six days as measured by our planet's rotations.

    zinji, for some reason, continues to try put all religious people into one pot. Religious thought is far more diverse and different from group to group than science has ever been.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  13. #12  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Who says believers in God eschew all of science?
    Not I. I'm not questioning all Christians or all of any other religion. I'm questioning those who believe creation(universe) was recent, geologically speaking, 4 to 10 thousand years ago, give or take a millenium or two.

    It seems to me that other than expert opinion, no creationist can possibly use any dating method known to science in good conscience. To believe a favorable result and not believe something contrary might kind of make you wonder. Best for creationists to keep quiet on this one?

    I don't wish to paint all Christians with the same brush. My question is directed at creationists and not all that difficult. Simple answers are: the bible says it is what it is in some round about way or God only allows accurate scientific dating for religious artifacts only. Is this the basis for the dating of objects for creationists or is there another way? As I said, I'm curious. Surely there's a creationist out there who can shed some light on how they do it.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  14. #13  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Since the passing of comedian, Richard Jeni this weekend. I'd thought I'd pay homage:


    The gospel according to Vinny
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNN19b0Ufoc
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator AlexP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Who says believers in God eschew all of science?
    So glad you brought that up. I think some people may get the impression that 'religious' people are anti-science. That's absolutely not true. There's absolutely no reason to be against science, its just that when science conflicts with religious beliefs, people tend to be critical of the science first, and not their religious views that differ from it. And i suppose that comes down to what the word 'faith' means, because people have faith in their religious beliefs. from Dictionary.com: "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Since the passing of comedian, Richard Jeni this weekend. I'd thought I'd pay homage:


    The gospel according to Vinny
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNN19b0Ufoc

    Amen to that brother!
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  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemboy
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Who says believers in God eschew all of science?
    So glad you brought that up. I think some people may get the impression that 'religious' people are anti-science. That's absolutely not true. There's absolutely no reason to be against science, its just that when science conflicts with religious beliefs, people tend to be critical of the science first, and not their religious views that differ from it. And i suppose that comes down to what the word 'faith' means, because people have faith in their religious beliefs. from Dictionary.com: "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
    But the arguments of the meaning of faith in Christianity is one of its more diverse aspect. I have encounter die hard fundamentalists who do not accept that definition of faith because they think they can prove that what they believe is correct. LOL

    I guess I essentially do accept that definition and point out that it applies to every axiom of mathematics and science as well. It is an unavoidable part of the whole process of knowldege of every kind.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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