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Thread: Crucifixion, Christmas and Virgin Births

  1. #1 Crucifixion, Christmas and Virgin Births 
    Forum Freshman Quantumologist's Avatar
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    There are commonalities in belief systems all over the world, such as:

    December 25th Birthday
    Crucifixion and Ascension
    Virgin Birth
    Basic templates (moral values)

    While the 'moral values' bit is perhaps self-explanatory, is there any possible scientific (astronomical?) reason why the 25th December should be a popular birth date? This post https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.co...n-december-25/ lists an extraordinary number of deities sharing the same birthday.

    What about virgin births? This article https://jezebel.com/the-history-of-v...ths-1674159265 might ruffle some feathers but it does include some interesting statistics.

    Crucified saviours number sixteen, apparently, according to this list - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wo...cified_Saviors

    Any suggestions?


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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Funnily enough, here's a take on it from a Christian website: The problem is that it’s completely false: these pagan figures (most of whom are mythical) either weren’t born on December 25th or we don’t know [my emphasis] when they were born.
    (Of course it does go on to make mistakes of its own, e.g. "Among both Christian and non-Christian scholars, there is no serious dispute about whether Jesus existed"1 and "but there are actually some good reasons to think Jesus was born on or around December 25th"2).
    As for why that date: The winter solstice occurs about DEC-21 each year. ... Using the crude instruments available, ancient astronomers were able to detect by DEC-25 of each year that the daytime had become noticeably longer...". I.e. the 25th is a mistake (should be 21st) but that date has a significance in that it's the "turn" of the year and that days are going to get lighter and the weather warmer etc. A "rebirth" as it were. If you have a "god" then that's as good a time as any to claim that he/ she/ it is influencing things. (As for "Jesus" - it's more or less common knowledge that Dec 25 was co-opted from a much earlier "deity" in order to wedge Christianity into pagan rituals/ observances: file the serial numbers off and change the "god's" name but keep all the fuss).

    1 In point of fact there is a growing doubt that "Jesus" actually existed - and it's getting more vocal.
    2 Er, shepherds and lambs? Christmas not being regarded as the birth date until about 400 years after the supposed event?


    Last edited by Dywyddyr; October 24th, 2017 at 03:27 PM.
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  4. #3  
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    There was a Roman (pagan) festival - Saturnalia, in late December. Church fathers wanted to give an alternative.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantumologist View Post
    There are commonalities in belief systems all over the world, such as:

    December 25th Birthday
    Crucifixion and Ascension
    Virgin Birth
    Basic templates (moral values)

    While the 'moral values' bit is perhaps self-explanatory, is there any possible scientific (astronomical?) reason why the 25th December should be a popular birth date? This post https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.co...n-december-25/ lists an extraordinary number of deities sharing the same birthday.

    What about virgin births? This article https://jezebel.com/the-history-of-v...ths-1674159265 might ruffle some feathers but it does include some interesting statistics.

    Crucified saviours number sixteen, apparently, according to this list - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wo...cified_Saviors

    Any suggestions?
    Suggestion.... Okay...

    PEOPLE STEAL THE THINGS THEY THINK ARE COOL, AND THEN PRETEND THEY CAME UP WITH THEM.

    Nothing at all more mystical then that.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  6. #5  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Here's my answer:
    PEOPLE STEAL THE THINGS THEY THINK ARE COOL, AND THEN PRETEND THEY CAME UP WITH THEM.
    Nothing at all more mystical than that.

    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  7. #6  
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    ^^^
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    There was a Roman (pagan) festival - Saturnalia, in late December. Church fathers wanted to give an alternative.
    Exactly. It has often the practice to co-opt a pre-existing festival and give it a new meaning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantumologist View Post
    There are commonalities in belief systems all over the world, such as:

    December 25th Birthday
    Crucifixion and Ascension
    Virgin Birth
    I can't think of anything in Japanese mythology that corresponds to any of these.

    Basic templates (moral values)
    There are cultures that have practised cannibalism, human sacrifice, sex as part of religious ceremonies, slavery and many other practices that would be considered immoral in our culture.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  10. #9  
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    Just like to mention again my admiration for the Reverend Robert Taylor, who was imprisoned for preaching atheism or infidelism from the pulpit when he realised the Bible was nothing but a reinterpretation of ancient pagan beliefs for a small number of Jews.

    https://archive.org/stream/astronomi...ge/n3/mode/2up

    https://archive.org/details/diegesis00unkngoog

    If you go to full screen you can scroll each page from the bar.
    I don't think Christianity has ever been debunked better.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantumologist View Post
    There are commonalities in belief systems all over the world, such as:

    December 25th Birthday
    Crucifixion and Ascension
    Virgin Birth
    I don't think these are common among many belief systems - just Christianity.
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    I know the 25th December was a festival dedicated to the god Mithras.

    Virgin births are common in Hinduism, some claim the Buddha was a virgin birth and the idea was common in Egyptian mythology (I can remember Horus and Ra were both claimed to be virgin births).

    Outside of religion Plato was believed by many to have been a virgin birth too!

    Odin was believed to have hung himself on a tree (not quite crucifixion but close) to gain wisdom and there are examples of sacrifice in many mythologies. Hercules was believed to have ascended to the heavens after his 12 labours, and there are examples in Hinduism of people entering heaven while still alive (a sort of "ascension").

    So they maybe aren't very common but the ideas were certainly floating around before and in the early days of Christianity.
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    Some of those ideas are just going to appeal to people who are making up magical stories.

    Also, the Gnostics (which Jesus, or the character(s) who inspired the myth, may have been associated with) probably had some knowledge of Buddhist thought.

    And, of course, Jesus wasn't the first or last person to b crucified by the Romans. And I don't think they invented it as a punishment. So there isn't really anything special about the fact he was killed like that. If he had been flayed or boiled alive, then churches would be filled with even gorier images; rather like modern cigarette packets!
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  14. #13  
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    Buddha was arguably born a virgin on 25th December. It doesn't say so exactly in the Buddhist texts, but it can be implied. His birth was from the goddess Maya (or Mary). The sun rises on the 25th December out of the sign of Virgo. This is almost certainly the meaning of the virgin birth.
    The Hindu deity Krishna was the Hindu Christ, and he was the incarnated version of the Hindu Trinity.
    What Christianity did was to persuade the public that the Christ was actually an historical person, and not a solar deity.
    I don't think an impartial person could ever dispute that Christianity is borrowed from a medley of ancient beliefs.
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    That may be true now, but not originally. Buddha's birthday is connected to the first full moon following the Buddhist new year.

    The best book I know of that debunks all religion is Bible Myths by Thomas Doane.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31885...-h/31885-h.htm
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  17. #16  
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    There is a theory that Christianity was borrowed from Buddhism by way of the Essenes. This was put forward by Bunsen in his Angel Messiah.
    See Chapter 2:22, which explains the birth.

    https://archive.org/stream/angelmess...0buns_djvu.txt

    If the 17th of November was New Year's-day, the
    second month commenced on the 17th of December,
    and ' the eighth day,' Buddha's birthday, was the 25th
    of December, the sun's annual birthday, when the
    power of the sun ceases to decrease and again begins to
    increase.
    Which the Bible twists around when John the Baptist (born at the summer solstice) says of Jesus 'He increases, but I must decrease.'
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Ah right...
    A speculative work (that, apparently, not even Buddhists agree with: viz the previously linked-to Wiki page) that's also over a hundred years old (and thus has - even disregarding the speculativeness - been superseded by later, more scholarly works works).
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    Contemporary Buddhists wouldn't agree because they actually believe that Buddha, just like Jesus Christ, was a real person. They are both in many ways a personification of the sun.
    If you believe that Christmas Day is not connected to the winter solstice, as celebrated by the Romans and Christians, and these pagan origins cannot be traced further east, then what can possibly be an alternative explanation?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Contemporary Buddhists wouldn't agree because they actually believe that Buddha, just like Jesus Christ, was a real person.
    I don't think there is much doubt that Buddha existed.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I don't think there is much doubt that Buddha existed.
    I think there's a lot of doubt. You are talking about 2,600 years ago. Do you believe what it says about the miraculous birth of Buddha in the Buddacarita? It's all supernatural stuff just like the miraculous birth of Jesus.

    http://www.universaltheosophy.com/pd...H-Johnston.pdf

    I can give you an alternative explanation.
    Buddha (or Christ) was a code word for an hallucinogenic drug. 'If you see Buddha on the road kill him.'
    In my understanding the basis of all religion is a drugs culture which was widespread across continents. Astrology had to woven in to suit the various practices the cults were based on.
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    Most [scholars] accept that he lived, taught and founded a monastic order during the Mahajanapada era during the reign of Bimbisara (c. 558 – c. 491 BCE, or c. 400 BCE),[9][10][11]
    British author Karen Armstrong writes that although there is very little information that can be considered historically sound, we can be reasonably confident that Siddhārtha Gautama did exist as a historical figure.[78]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

    But if you prefer to believe tales from a religious website, that is up to you.

    I can give you an alternative explanation.
    Buddha (or Christ) was a code word for an hallucinogenic drug. 'If you see Buddha on the road kill him.'
    In my understanding the basis of all religion is a drugs culture which was widespread across continents. Astrology had to woven in to suit the various practices the cults were based on.
    Or just make up your own crap, why not. (I won't ask if this came to you in a drug-induced haze as you have made it clear how offended you are by light-hearted comments.)
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  23. #22  
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    What do you mean by most scholars.
    Are they by any chance religious scholars?
    Karen Armstrong was an apologist who believed the Resurrection was an actual historical event until corrected by her fellow nuns.
    It appears you find time for the supernatural, when this is a science forum.

    In contrast, I'm always more than a little suspicious about the fantastic claims on offer from religion.
    Buddhism. Open your third eye and become enlightened.
    Christianity. Subscribe now and get a free harp on arrival into heaven.
    Hinduism. Balance your chakras for good health.
    Islam. Become a martyr and help yourself to virgins.

    (Bother, I've just discovered the free harp offer expired last month.)
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It appears you find time for the supernatural, when this is a science forum.
    You are the one referencing religious web sites.

    What do you mean by most scholars.
    I didn't say that.

    But I see you have no evidence for your drug fantasy. No surprises there.
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  25. #24  
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    What evidence do you have for Buddha being an historical person?
    He had a supernatural birth, he performed supernatural feats, which no human can.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What evidence do you have for Buddha being an historical person?
    He had a supernatural birth, he performed supernatural feats, which no human can.
    We've been through this before, I think. The Buddha, and Jesus, could have been real historical figures, while the claims of supernatural descent and powers were invented by their followers. The mythical nature of the stories does not preclude the existence of real people, around whom the myths were created. In fact, this seems the most probable origin of these religions. There is usually a kernel of truth, of some sort, behind myths and legends.
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  27. #26  
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    If Buddha and Jesus were real historical figures, then where are the reliable historians to give a detailed description of their lives?
    The fact that there were none (there is a brief interpolated reference of Jesus in Josephus, but nothing in Philo) then any interpretation of their existence would have to rely on hearsay, or as Thomas Payne puts it, hearsay based on hearsay. Sooner or later they become virgin born (birth from sexual intercourse would never do) and ultimately they survive death.
    Their antiquity and the absence of any reliable artefact is unfortunately what adds to the enduring appeal and mystery.
    I wouldn't bother waiting with anticipation for their promised return, but many still do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What evidence do you have for Buddha being an historical person?
    He had a supernatural birth, he performed supernatural feats, which no human can.
    Jesus Louise-us ox, it’s like you are stuck in a loop!

    1) Historical figure ą mythical figure
    2) The impossibility of miraculous events and feats does not preclude the existence of an historical figure. Yet you keep putting a dose of these in your posts:

    “He had a supernatural birth, he performed supernatural feats, which no human can”.
    “Do you believe what it says about the miraculous birth of Buddha in the Buddacarita? It's all supernatural stuff just like the miraculous birth of Jesus”.

    What would any of the above have to do with the credibility of, say, an historical account that is devoid of any of the above?

    Now if you want to point out the discrepancies between mundane accounts from say the four Gospels (which if understand correctly is one of the primary sources upon which historians rely when it comes to the times and places involving Jesus), then knock yourself out! (Of course someone might just as easily point out the consistencies). But for heaven’s sake: Please stop trying to convince everyone that because there are miraculous accounts, the individuals in question can’t have existed!

    So now that we’ve dispensed (hopefully) with the miraculous as “evidence against” let us try to continue in the spirit of H.G. Wells’ description of Jesus in his Outline of History: “We shall, therefore, hold closely to the apparent facts, and avoid, without any disputation or denial, the theological interpretations that have been imposed upon them…. We shall tell what men have believed about Jesus of Nazareth (Siddhārtha Gautama), but him we shall treat as being what he appeared to be, a man, just as a painter must needs paint him as a man.”
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  29. #28  
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    The gospels are only history for Christians.
    As for HG, build his time machine and go back 2000 years to the area of Jerusalem. Would you find a Jesus there? Probably, because it was a common enough name.
    Would you find JC? No.

    From Wiki (HG Wells).
    Of Christianity, he said: "it is not now true for me. ... Every believing Christian is, I am sure, my spiritual brother ... but if systemically I called myself a Christian I feel that to most men I should imply too much and so tell a lie". Of other world religions, he writes: "All these religions are true for me as Canterbury Cathedral is a true thing and as a Swiss chalet is a true thing. There they are, and they have served a purpose, they have worked. Only they are not true for me to live in them. ... They do not work for me". In The Fate of Homo Sapiens, published in 1939, Wells criticised almost all world religions and philosophies, stating "there is no creed, no way of living left in the world at all, that really meets the needs of the time… When we come to look at them coolly and dispassionately, all the main religions, patriotic, moral and customary systems in which human beings are sheltering today, appear to be in a state of jostling and mutually destructive movement, like the houses and palaces and other buildings of some vast, sprawling city overtaken by a landslide.
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    No OX, the Gospels are NOT the only source of historical information for that time, stop being dense. There are a myriad of other texts, from the Apocrypha, (EG the gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdaline) plus the historical texts of EVERY OTHER culture in the area.
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    dup post
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No OX, the Gospels are NOT the only source of historical information for that time, stop being dense. There are a myriad of other texts, from the Apocrypha, (EG the gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdaline) plus the historical texts of EVERY OTHER culture in the area.
    Yeah, keep the insults coming.
    Both of the gospels mentioned were 'composed' by Gnostics in the middle second century, and both paint different pictures.

    “Gospel” of Judas: The Great New Fraud - The American TFP

    Mary Magdaline, the wife of Jesus???
    Might as well believe in Dan Brown.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...e-is-fake.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The gospels are only history for Christians.
    As for HG, build his time machine and go back 2000 years to the area of Jerusalem. Would you find a Jesus there? Probably, because it was a common enough name.
    Would you find JC? No.

    From Wiki (HG Wells).
    Of Christianity, he said: "it is not now true for me. ... Every believing Christian is, I am sure, my spiritual brother ... but if systemically I called myself a Christian I feel that to most men I should imply too much and so tell a lie". Of other world religions, he writes: "All these religions are true for me as Canterbury Cathedral is a true thing and as a Swiss chalet is a true thing. There they are, and they have served a purpose, they have worked. Only they are not true for me to live in them. ... They do not work for me". In The Fate of Homo Sapiens, published in 1939, Wells criticised almost all world religions and philosophies, stating "there is no creed, no way of living left in the world at all, that really meets the needs of the time… When we come to look at them coolly and dispassionately, all the main religions, patriotic, moral and customary systems in which human beings are sheltering today, appear to be in a state of jostling and mutually destructive movement, like the houses and palaces and other buildings of some vast, sprawling city overtaken by a landslide.
    "The gospels are only history for Christians".

    False. They are there for anyone to peruse and draw whatever conclusions they might, just like the myriad other texts referred to by Paleoichneum.

    "Would you find JC? No".

    Ok, we’ll just take your word for it then.

    As for H. G. Wells’ views on religion, I have no idea what these have to do with the point I was making in my post.
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    Believers will interpret what they want from the Bible. There is always a belief in belief.
    Some in the Celtic nations used to believe in fairies, as well as the Bible. Now it seems fewer believe in either.
    If there was even a quantum of evidence to support the existence of JC, then faith would be redundant.
    The Jesus in question could have been a Rasputin type revolutionary, but again there is no evidence for this. All Jews considered themselves the sons and daughters of God.
    There are no supernatural forces, and it is more like fantasy to support the idea of a saviour and his miracles. The observable universe is made up of 10^80 atoms and their forces, and the human body of 10^27 atoms, which have arranged themselves in a slightly different way. That should be miracle enough.
    I'll say one thing for Jesus. His story has been the biggest fraud and money maker in history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Believers will interpret what they want from the Bible. There is always a belief in belief.
    Some in the Celtic nations used to believe in fairies, as well as the Bible. Now it seems fewer believe in either.
    If there was even a quantum of evidence to support the existence of JC, then faith would be redundant.
    The Jesus in question could have been a Rasputin type revolutionary, but again there is no evidence for this. All Jews considered themselves the sons and daughters of God.
    There are no supernatural forces, and it is more like fantasy to support the idea of a saviour and his miracles. The observable universe is made up of 10^80 atoms and their forces, and the human body of 10^27 atoms, which have arranged themselves in a slightly different way. That should be miracle enough.
    I'll say one thing for Jesus. His story has been the biggest fraud and money maker in history.
    Whose post are you replying to? What is this blog worthy opinion doing here? Moderator please!
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    You go on anti-religion rants and yet your main sources seem to be extremist religious websites like this. I'm not sure if this just hypocritical or completely delusional.
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    It wasnt in insult ox, I was pointing out that you are purposely being obtuse, and the sources you provided are acceptable why??
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    It wasnt in insult ox, I was pointing out that you are purposely being obtuse, and the sources you provided are acceptable why??
    It may not be purposely: he did vote for Brexshit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    It wasnt in insult ox, I was pointing out that you are purposely being obtuse, and the sources you provided are acceptable why??
    It may not be purposely: he did vote for Brexshit.
    And he seems to be relying on equally dubious sources for his information on this subject as well.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It may not be purposely: he did vote for Brexshit.
    So what if I'm a theological and Euro sceptic rolled into one.
    I find it incredible in this day and age that people still believe in the supernatural when there is a rational explanation for everything. You should feel honoured to live at such a time, and not in the darkness of the past. I doubt if the creator of Sherlock Holmes would not believe in spiritualism and fairies today, but Conan-Doyle did when he was alive. I doubt if Darwin's rival Wallace would be a spiritualist today. The Apocrypha was so doubtful even then that it was thought best not to include it in the Bible, but amazingly Paleoichneum is making a case for it now.
    I have given you a rational explanation for the Jesus myth. While I cannot prove it without any doubt it is far more likely an explanation, unless that is you absolutely insist on a belief in the supernatural which you free to do.
    I try to avoid Christians because they are never open to reason and in my opinion they are frequently arrogant, greedy and sarcastic, but here goes again.
    The Indians had their own Christ. His name was Krishna and he was the incarnation of the one true god, Brahma. Christians would refute the idea that God had previously sent down a saviour in human form. They would also reject the idea that he was an historical figure. The Nepalese also had their own Christ, Buddha, and has also found followers around the world.
    We are all mortals who are unaware of the timing of our own death, but what better offer will you ever have than surviving death and gaining paradise?
    So humans are gullible. Only this week a friend emailed me from abroad wondering if an offer to deliver Ł3.5 million in return for personal details was a scam. No wonder the religious offer of heaven is so appealing.

    The alternative explanation I give is that Christ in form of whatever (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna) was a code word for the magical power of recipes from plants, and some of these were mind changing and others healing. The miracles of Jesus point to some sort of power and he was quite possibly a dealer in drugs. Plants and recipes were no doubt transported widely along the trading routes.
    The numerology in the Bible also points to lost meaning. The 'Beast' whatever it was, had a number of either 616 or 666. Some drugs were hallucinogens and could no doubt provide a temporary feeling of 'heaven'. Before the dose could be administered it would be advantageous to know the patient's astrology. There is no denying there is a lot of astrology in the Bible, just as there is in the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.
    So what do we actually know about the historical Jesus? Not a great deal. The gospel writers are anonymous, and we have no idea who they were. John's gospel was composed about 100 years after Jesus, and is almost certainly a fraud. Jesus was either born in stable or a cave. Take your choice. He was born in the time of King Herod, but Herod died 4BC. Nothing is known of his life until he was 30, but he might have been a carpenter. His so called ministry lasted for 3 years, before the Romans finally caught up with him.
    So little is known and even less is to be trusted that he cannot be looked upon as being a true historical figure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It may not be purposely: he did vote for Brexshit.
    So what if I'm a theological and Euro sceptic rolled into one.
    I wouldn't call it "sceptical" to rely on fundamentalist websites for your information. I would hope someone sceptical would search for the best evidence, not just evidence that supports their opinion. (But as that would undermine your views on Brexit, that isn't going to happen.)
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    I don't rely on fundamentalist websites. I rely on reason and rationality.
    If you have a better explanation for Biblical stories then let's hear it, rather than carry on your vendetta against me.
    As for your hero, Alan Moore, just in case other people weren't aware of the full quote.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire, and the adoption of the V for Vendetta mask as a multipurpose icon by the emerging global protest movements is no exception.
    I assume you have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I don't rely on fundamentalist websites.
    You don't think the TFP is a fundamentalist Christian website? I can't imagine what you think "fundamentalist" means.

    (Although, given the extreme religious views common in America, I suppose they could be pretty mainstream... But still not a rational source for a "sceptical atheist")

    I assume you have one.
    One what?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    One what?
    Well, to be fair, why would Moore need a mask?
    Do you know him personally?
    Buy one for Halloween.

    Comic book writer Alan Moore hits out at county library service - BBC News
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    One what?
    Well, to be fair, why would Moore need a mask?
    Do you know him personally?
    Buy one for Halloween.

    Comic book writer Alan Moore hits out at county library service - BBC News
    It is a good job you don't drink. Your posts would be totally incomprehensible instead of just slightly incoherent. I have no idea what you are on about or what possible relevant it has to the topic (which you appear to have hijacked for another of your insane religion-based anti-religion diatribes).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    the bible stories a collection of slang used between drugdealers and drugaddicts? thats hillarious
    heaven as a place where you go to after you lived a God fearing live? must be quite a big place (I wanna go there not for an amount of virgins "assigned to me" but for overhearing the conversation beween Einstein and a neanderthaler, that would defenetly crack me up)
    some stories are more meaningfull if you read between the lines.
    the Roman empire fell apart,why? to much corruption/perversion in the law enforcing structure?a stagnating of the expansion (conquering land)?
    the Romans feared an uprising and must have been fierce against uprising movement
    JC was a scapegoat, christianity was later interlocked with law enforcing structure, religious motivation? i don't think so
    Does God exist? it must be challenging to come to a clear defenition, the number of people and their "expectations" taken into consideration
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the bible stories a collection of slang used between drugdealers and drugaddicts? thats hillarious
    heaven as a place where you go to after you lived a God fearing live? must be quite a big place (I wanna go there not for an amount of virgins "assigned to me" but for overhearing the conversation beween Einstein and a neanderthaler, that would defenetly crack me up)
    some stories are more meaningfull if you read between the lines.
    the Roman empire fell apart,why? to much corruption/perversion in the law enforcing structure?a stagnating of the expansion (conquering land)?
    the Romans feared an uprising and must have been fierce against uprising movement
    JC was a scapegoat, christianity was later interlocked with law enforcing structure, religious motivation? i don't think so
    Does God exist? it must be challenging to come to a clear defenition, the number of people and their "expectations" taken into consideration
    Would you like to try again in coherent English? This subforum is for the scientific study of religion. What scientific point do you want to make?
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Would you like to try again in coherent English? This subforum is for the scientific study of religion. What scientific point do you want to make?
    What variety of the English language you prefer? Cockney-? Oxford-?

    for the scientific study of religion one does not need to be religious, for the study to be scientific one requires to be objective.
    it should be obvious that religion and politics are quite often (throughout history and even today in some parts of the world) are interwoven (because of set forth requirement of obedience and service), therefore one should seperate the politics from the religion part of the observation.
    if one is of a certain believe or disbelieve, one's objectivity is challenged in observing objectively other believes or disbelieves.

    I hope this post meets your standards of "coherent English"
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post


    What variety of the English language you prefer? Cockney-? Oxford-?
    He clearly wrote “coherent English” which has nothing to do with accents or pronunciation.

    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    I hope this post meets your standards of "coherent English"
    I see you added quotation marks. I’m sure he would add them as well if he were to describe your posts as coherent English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Would you like to try again in coherent English? This subforum is for the scientific study of religion. What scientific point do you want to make?
    What variety of the English language you prefer? Cockney-? Oxford-?

    for the scientific study of religion one does not need to be religious, for the study to be scientific one requires to be objective.
    it should be obvious that religion and politics are quite often (throughout history and even today in some parts of the world) are interwoven (because of set forth requirement of obedience and service), therefore one should seperate the politics from the religion part of the observation.
    if one is of a certain believe or disbelieve, one's objectivity is challenged in observing objectively other believes or disbelieves.

    I hope this post meets your standards of "coherent English"
    No, it doesn't at all. It is full of spelling mistakes and bad grammar, and it seems to be addressing a wholly irrelevant issue to do with religion and politics, though what point is being made remains very hard to discern.

    The subject of this thread was the suggestion that crucifixion, virgin births and Christmas stories are common to many religions. I ask you again: what scientific point about religion, connected to this subject, are you trying to make?
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the bible stories a collection of slang used between drugdealers and drugaddicts? thats hillarious
    hillarious? Where is your spellchecker? And don't post while driving.

    Suggest you read books by John Allegro such as The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
    The Bible is a redacted mess of earlier myth and fable, forged letters, numerology and secret code.
    Most of the available texts were never included in the Bible. It was thought best to leave them out because they would have given the whole game away.
    Unfortunately the faithful only pick out the bits they can relate to and astonishingly this includes the apocryphal Adam and Eve, Noah, and the Saviour who was the virgin born Son of God (or Son of Man).
    Take your choice, and if you reject Jesus you will burn in hell (Revelation 21:8). That's why I'm not a Christian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Suggest you read books by John Allegro such as The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
    Er, yeah... "Allegro was an eccentric scholar who relied on texts that did not exist in quite the form he was citing them".
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    the bible stories a collection of slang used between drugdealers and drugaddicts? thats hillarious
    hillarious? Where is your spellchecker? And don't post while driving.

    Suggest you read books by John Allegro such as The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
    The Bible is a redacted mess of earlier myth and fable, forged letters, numerology and secret code.
    Most of the available texts were never included in the Bible. It was thought best to leave them out because they would have given the whole game away.
    Unfortunately the faithful only pick out the bits they can relate to and astonishingly this includes the apocryphal Adam and Eve, Noah, and the Saviour who was the virgin born Son of God (or Son of Man).
    Take your choice, and if you reject Jesus you will burn in hell (Revelation 21:8). That's why I'm not a Christian.
    hilarious, point taken
    i have been subject to a Christian education, i do not consider myselve as a Christian
    i believe in God, i do not believe in any doctrine telling me how to behave
    i do not believe the universe exists as an open system eg a big bang and then human came to exist, excercizing a very small probability factor
    i do believe the universe exists as a closed system, in that it is regulated
    however, this control system for all i care shouldn't be named God, as to some this would be "taking the Lords name in vane"
    i consider this search and discovery exercise a personal one and do not feel the need to convince anybody of discoveries i make
    Do you think these books of John Allegro will be still available, in a censored form or not, in 2000 years from now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Do you think these books of John Allegro will be still available, in a censored form or not, in 2000 years from now?
    Won't know until I buy a crystal ball.

    Allegro was tasked with translating the Dead Sea Scrolls, so he was regarded in high esteem, but The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross destroyed his reputation as so many religious bigots ganged up against him.
    You have to remember that Christianity is a vast moneymaking business and any attack on the institution will be met with force. One man against a whole army of about two billion.

    Read this about the soma.
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/soma-Hinduism

    If you believe the fantasy about one god, angels, prophets, miracles, a virgin born saviour whose father was a ghost, then it's your call.
    To use your word 'hilarious' what could be more so than the idea of one god. The gnostic Christians believed in 365.
    I'd say the Bible is the most unreliable document ever. In particular, the King James version of the Bible was based on a faulty Greek text.
    Allegro was, I'd say, much more reliable. There is also speculation in his work because we have only limited information of ancient times. Professor Carl Ruck enhances the ideas put forward by Allegro.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_A._P._Ruck

    According to Allegro the virgin born saviour was juice of an hallucinogenic mushroom. It does not come from a seed but from an invisible spore and the stipe is the shape of a phallus from where the cross symbol emanates.
    This is not a supernatural explanation, so beloved of Christians, but a natural explanation, so beloved of science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    i do not believe the universe exists as an open system eg a big bang and then humans came to exist, excercising a very small probability factor
    i do believe the universe exists as a closed system, in that it is regulated
    What specific evidence do you have that the Universe is a "Closed system" (to use your terminology).

    What evidence do you have that the big bang (NOT at all the start of the universe FYI), and evolution of life did not happen?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What specific evidence do you have that the Universe is a "Closed system" (to use your terminology).
    What evidence do you have that the big bang (NOT at all the start of the universe FYI), and evolution of life did not happen?
    controlled system with feedback (closed system):a personal ongoing research and discovery, for which self scrutiny suffices, to verify/nullify the assumption
    i did not stated that evolution did not happen, i am sceptic that it happened accidently
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    self scrutiny suffices, to verify/nullify the assumption
    No it doesn't.
    Get a clue.
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    From the evidence of his posts perdurat is ill educated but does not let that hinder him in making definitive pronouncements... Just another poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect...

    Perdurat:, either learn at least the basics of what you are talking about or f*** off... Otherwise you are just wasting your time (and ours).
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What specific evidence do you have that the Universe is a "Closed system" (to use your terminology).
    What evidence do you have that the big bang (NOT at all the start of the universe FYI), and evolution of life did not happen?
    controlled system with feedback (closed system):a personal ongoing research and discovery, for which self scrutiny suffices, to verify/nullify the assumption
    i did not stated that evolution did not happen, i am sceptic that it happened accidently
    What EXACT evidence will you supply HERE AND NOW for any sort of control.

    This is a science forum, so "self scrutiny" is never accepted, testable or verifiable evidence is required.

    And you have not provided any reason to at any point think that evolution was "guided", (EG why would anyone put the sewage system right through the playground?)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Dunning-Kruger effect...

    Perdurat:, either learn at least the basics of what you are talking about or f*** off... Otherwise you are just wasting your time (and ours).
    I herreby acknowledge having "researched" the Dunning Kruger effect", i leave it to the discretion of your judgement wether or not I should be qualified as "wilfully ignorant"
    The so called effect suggests a low ability (whatever that means) and a feeling of being superior
    the former suggests some form of measure of intelligence, i am more interested in measure of body properties (it gives me direct clues with respect to buying clothes)
    both mentioned qualities are subject to DNA, it is what it is
    with regards to the latter :do i feel superior? defenitely not. may i be perceived as such?maybe...(to my defence:there might be a bit of professional deformity)
    ill educated? surely the foxtrot oscar bit demonstrates proper education
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    You'll be gone soon :shrug:
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdurat View Post
    I herreby acknowledge having "researched" the Dunning Kruger effect"
    Not very well or in much depth, apparently:
    do i feel superior? defenitely not.
    Given that one click on from the Wki article (which should have been your start point for "research" we get this with regard to "superiority": illusory superiority is a cognitive bias whereby a person overestimates his or her own qualities and abilities.
    You certainly qualify for that.

    The so called effect suggests a low ability (whatever that means)
    Do you not understand English?

    and a feeling of being superior
    No, what is says is "illusory superiority" - not quite the same thing.

    both mentioned qualities are subject to DNA, it is what it is
    Apart from the fact ignorance is - to an extent - educable.

    (to my defence:there might be a bit of professional deformity)
    And yet, evidently, you make no effort to remedy/ correct it.

    ill educated? surely the foxtrot oscar bit demonstrates proper education
    Correct.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What EXACT evidence will you supply HERE AND NOW for any sort of control.

    This is a science forum, so "self scrutiny" is never accepted, testable or verifiable evidence is required.

    And you have not provided any reason to at any point think that evolution was "guided", (EG why would anyone put the sewage system right through the playground?)
    OK, i'll try because of offtopic (it was a reply to a post of ox) i'll start a new thread (i am not sure i understand the between brackets bit you posted
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