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Thread: Delusions make the human mind that more amazing

  1. #1 Delusions make the human mind that more amazing 
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    People with either delusions of grandeur or the delusional belief in a God or afterlife should not be frowned upon because mental delusions are just one of the many amazing functions of the human mind. I'm sure many atheists admire the beauty of knowing how things scientifically work and such. Therefore, you should acknowledge the fact that anyone with a delusional belief has a beautiful scientific inner working of their minds and you should not frown upon it and convince them otherwise of their beliefs and such. I realize that atheists value the truth that there is no God and afterlife, but you should also value the fact that any attitude or delusional belief a person has is just something scientifically meant for survival. You should not try to change how things work according to science in this specific situation (which means not trying to change this person's beliefs). However, when it comes to the beliefs either causing harm to themselves or anyone else, that's when it's time to intervene. But other than that, if this person's belief just simply brings them personal pleasure in life, then it should not be frowned upon at all and should be acknowledged as an amazing function of his/her mind that makes this person that more amazing. I have delusions of grandeur and I don't have the intention of harming anyone or halting scientific progress.

    There are innocent people here just living their own fantasy world not harming others or causing wars and we should just leave these people alone and never tell them the truth of reality as long as they are happy with their fantasies. We should encourage their fantasies to make them even more happy. If your attitude is that we should convince these people otherwise because the more people we have who realize the facts of reality, the more progress we have in science and such, then what if they never wanted to be that way and being that way makes them disappointed and depressed? Not to mention, some people don't even care about science and supporting it--they are just fine living their own innocent happy lives. Therefore, it's not worth it at all to tell them the truth of reality just for the possible sake of getting a more few people here and there to support science when the fact is that science is already being well supported by many people.

    Many people think that those who live in a fantasy world are somehow weak or useless to society, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. I am using my “living in a fantasy world” mindset to compose music. Composing music is something that greatly contributes to society (even pieces of music that have fantasy-like emotion to them since even these types of music are honored by many people whether it just be instrumental or even with lyrics and such). The mindset that I wish to live in a fantasy world is very important to me because I use that in composing music that has beautiful fantasy-like emotion to it and such and I do not want anything in reality to interfere with it. Although there are people who do use inspiration from reality and use that to compose music, I am not this type of person at all. I can use my inspiration from fantasy to achieve greatness and success in life just as good (if not better) than those people who do with inspiration from reality. Therefore, this right here says that my personal delusions of grandeur through fantasy will not have negative consequences and are just as good (if not better) than reality itself. Instead, I will be someone great and perhaps very successful in life through being a composer.


    Last edited by MattMVS7; August 18th, 2014 at 03:48 PM.
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  3. #2  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMVS7 View Post
    Therefore, you should acknowledge the fact that anyone with a delusional belief has a beautiful scientific inner working of their minds
    This is meaningless.
    If you're trying to say that minds work because of physics/ biology/ etc. this is correct but irrelevant.
    If you're saying that the workings of their minds i.e. the thought processes and manner of thinking is scientific this demonstarbly untrue.

    I realize that atheists value the truth that there is no God and afterlife
    Then you also appear to not know what atheism is.
    Very few atheists claim that it's "true" that there is no god or afterlife, most hold that it cannot be shown that there is, but, should actual evidence come along then we'll change our minds.
    To declare "there truly is no god" is as almost as equally unsupported as the claim "It's true that there is a god".

    but you should also value the fact that any attitude or delusional belief a person has is just something scientifically meant for survival.
    Citation required.
    Since many people survive without such delusions it's hard see how this true.

    You should not try to change how things work according to science in this specific situation (which means not trying to change this person's beliefs).
    Given that you've not, so far, supported any of your previous claims then it's hard to lend any credence to this one.
    There's also the fact that, in the vast majority of cases, atheists don't "try to change anyone's beliefs". Especially unprompted.
    I think you'll find the usual sequence is: believer declares X to a fact (based on his/ her belief), atheist asks how this is known, believer retorts with more statements of belief and so on.
    I.e. it's usually the believer that starts the exchange with claims (as often as not in an attempt to change the minds of atheists).

    But other than that, if this person's belief just simply brings them personal pleasure in life, then it should not be frowned upon at all
    And, by the same token, it should ALSO not be foisted upon others - especially (on a science forum) in an unscientific manner.
    It's either deliberately inflammatory or outright stupidity, on a par with eating a stack of bacon sandwiches in the middle of lion enclosure (and here you are to blame the lions...)

    There are innocent people here just living their own fantasy world not harming others or causing wars and we should just leave these people alone and never tell them the truth of reality as long as they are happy with their fantasies.
    And if they leave us alone they'll get that courtesy.

    Therefore, it's not worth it at all to tell them the truth of reality just for the possible sake of getting a more few people here and there to support science when the fact is that science is already being well supported by many people.
    If they don't want their beliefs to be questioned in any sort of scientific manner then the solution is not obvious it's also exceedingly simple: stay out of science, or, if they must come, keep quiet about their beliefs.

    Your entire argument is the equivalent of claiming that five year olds should be allowed, or even encouraged, to play their toy drum in a crowded theatre during a performance of Hamlet, simply because the child enjoys the noise.


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    Many people think that those who live in a fantasy world are somehow weak or useless to society, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. I am using my “living in a fantasy world” mindset to compose music. Composing music is something that greatly contributes to society (even pieces of music that have fantasy-like emotion to them since even these types of music are honored by many people whether it just be instrumental or even with lyrics and such). The mindset that I wish to live in a fantasy world is very important to me because I use that in composing music that has beautiful fantasy-like emotion to it and such and I do not want anything in reality to interfere with it. Although there are people who do use inspiration from reality and use that to compose music, I am not this type of person at all. I can use my inspiration from fantasy to achieve greatness and success in life just as good (if not better) than those people who do with inspiration from reality. Therefore, this right here says that my personal delusions of grandeur through fantasy will not have negative consequences and are just as good (if not better) than reality itself. Instead, I will be someone great and perhaps very successful in life through being a composer.
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  5. #4  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Apart from the rather annoying fact that this post doesn't address anything covered in mine it's about as flawed as your last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMVS7 View Post
    Many people think that those who live in a fantasy world are somehow weak or useless to society
    Depends on what you actually mean by "living in a fantasy world".

    I am using my “living in a fantasy world” mindset to compose music
    Unless that music stays in your head then you also happen to be living in the real world: that's where it gets written down, played, recorded, listened to, appreciated...

    The mindset that I wish to live in a fantasy world is very important to me because I use that in composing music that has beautiful fantasy-like emotion to it and such and I do not want anything in reality to interfere with it.
    Yeah, but you don't live there, you visit to a greater or lesser degree.

    I can use my inspiration from fantasy to achieve greatness and success in life
    Just because something is possible doesn't mean it will happen.
    If you'd written "I DO use my inspiration from fantasy to achieve greatness and success in life..." then you'd be onto something.

    just as good (if not better) than those people who do with inspiration from reality.
    Or worse.

    Therefore, this right here says that my personal delusions of grandeur through fantasy will not have negative consequences
    No it doesn't.
    Just because something is possible doesn't mean it will happen.

    and are just as good (if not better) than reality itself.
    Right. Achieving "greatness and success" in life is better than the real world.
    How does that work?

    Instead, I will be someone great and perhaps very successful in life through being a composer.
    There's a fantasy.
    Until you actually do something it's a fantasy only. (And also decidedly not achieving greatness).

    Let me know how you get on.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Right. Achieving "greatness and success" in life is better than the real world.
    How does that work?
    What I mean is that achieving greatness and success in life through denying the truth of reality and believing in fantasies is just as good (if not better) than achieving greatness and success in life through believing in scientific facts of reality and such and not having belief in fantasies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Since many people survive without such delusions it's hard see how this true.
    Pleasure is something meant for survival. Therefore, if you receive pleasure from delusional fantasies, this is obviously a survival mechanism.
    Last edited by MattMVS7; August 18th, 2014 at 04:50 PM.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMVS7 View Post
    What I mean is that achieving greatness and success in life through denying the truth of reality and believing in fantasies is just as good (if not better) than achieving greatness and success in life through believing in scientific facts of reality and such and not having belief in fantasies.
    Several errors here.
    1) It's merely an unsupported claim.
    2) Very very few people deny "reality".
    3) Even fewer achieve either greatness or success by doing so.
    4) You keep forgetting to add "or worse" after "just as good(if not better)".
    5) You have the ridiculous idea that"believing in scientific facts of reality" actually occurs. It's not a question of "belief" they're facts. Scientific or otherwise.
    6) You also have the ridiculous idea that scientific people don't have "belief in fantasies" - they certainly have fantasies.

    Pleasure is something meant for survival
    Citation required.

    Therefore, if you receive pleasure from delusional fantasies, this is obviously a survival mechanism.
    Even IF your previous claim was true it does not automatically mean that every means of achieving pleasure is a viable survival mechanism.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Citation required.
    Pleasure is what encourages us as human species to survive. This is a scientific fact.

    Even IF your previous claim was true it does not automatically mean that every means of achieving pleasure is a viable survival mechanism.
    If there are means of achieving pleasure that don't serve as a survival mechanism, then why would we even receive pleasure from such things in the first place? Evolution would obviously deem those things as useless and not even encourage us through pleasure to survive through these delusions.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMVS7 View Post
    Pleasure is what encourages us as human species to survive. This is a scientific fact.
    Your previous claim was that pleasure was meant for survival.
    And the one prior to that was, essentially, anything that gives us pleasure contributes toward survival
    If this so you should have no problem providing links to papers that state as much.
    I'll wait.

    If there are means of achieving pleasure that don't serve as a survival mechanism, then why would we even receive pleasure from such things in the first place? Evolution would obviously deem those things as useless and not even encourage us through pleasure to survive through these delusions.
    Yeeees.
    For someone who's just declared something to be "scientific fact" your knowledge of science seems to be rather deficient.
    Evolution doesn't "deem" anything.
    What works toward survival stays.
    What works against survival goes.
    What doesn't work but doesn't hinder survival lingers.
    What does work but doesn't make any difference either way hangs around.
    What hangs around we manage to find multiple - additional and not necessarily survival related - uses for .

    If we can achieve pleasure in one particular way - one that does aid survival - the chances are that there will be other pathways available - not survival related - to achieve the same pleasure.
    There are numerous ways that humans derive pleasure, from sex to eating ice cream to reading books to laughing at TV sitcoms.
    Could you show me how watching sitcoms aids survival, for example?
    Oh, wait, it keeps you indoors at night so you can't get hit by passing trucks in the dark.
    Clever old evolution, eh?

    Some people get quite a bit of pleasure from getting rat-arsed down the pub as often as possible: this can lead to alcoholism.
    Now I'm a bit lost.
    Is alcoholism a survival trait or not?

    How about drug addiction (and the pleasure derived therefrom)?
    Could you explain - in really simple terms because I can't see it - how something that generally completely over-rides the normal functions of sex and eating works as a survival mechanism?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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