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Thread: What do you believe.

  1. #1 What do you believe. 
    Forum Freshman Lee W's Avatar
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    Seen as this is a science forum I thought it would be interesting to see what religion you follow or maybe just your view on life basically.
    Ill start with saying what I believe. I was brought up a Christian but as I got older I questioned everything and today I can say that I do not believe in Christianity or any religion as such. I think that when we die we die. Although like everyone, I think it would be nice for there to be a heaven. The other big question for me is how did it start. You can look at the research we have and the theory of the big bang but the question always seem to be 'how?' if there is a god how did he come to be and if the big bang theory is true how did that start.
    These are questions I would like to discuss and just see what everyone else thinks.
    Thanks Lee W.


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    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
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    I am a buddhist, it seems to be the one that seems to fit best with science. Even with Zelos' strong attempts to disprove it, i am still a buddhist


    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
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  4. #3  
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    I believe the universe is God, not a conscious entity just all matter, time, space, energy and history. Without any of those things I would not be here, All hail the universe, creator of all before you!.
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    Forum Freshman Jellybird's Avatar
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    And im an atheist and dont believe in either heaven or hell or in anything supernatural for that matter. Though where the universe came from is a good question. :-D
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    Seen as this is a science forum I thought it would be interesting to see what religion you follow or maybe just your view on life basically.
    What we are cannot be seperated from what we have been, for everything on that road is a part of who we are right now.

    I was not raised Christian but had the opportunity to answer all questions like this for myself. My father was a Marxist (Maoist actually) and my mother was into Numerology and Astrology type things. From the age of about 13 I began my own rationalist quest (inspired by Descarte) to understand the universe. My search consisted of exploring all of philosophy, science and religion at the same time. I should also mention that Science Fiction and fantasy played a role as well, because I found that this type of literature explored many of the deeper fundamental questions about what it means to be alive or to be human. From high school, Existentialism had a big impact on my thinking, and then in college a class on the religions of the far east had some influence. Meanwhile I had spent some time exploring both what the Mormons and the Jehova Witnesses had to say, but finally, just as I was graduating from college it was the Moonies that "caught me in their net."

    The Moonies (also known as the Unification Church or more recently as the Family Federation for World Peace) had a very rationalistic approach to understanding the Bible and Christianity, while embracing many of the religious ideas in the older religions of the far east as well. Because of my education I was eventually sent to their graduate seminary in up-state New York (the Unification Theological Seminary). This school was taught by professors from many different traditions: for example, my Old Testament teacher was a Jewish Rabii, my Philosophy teacher was a Polish Catholic who studied with the Pope, my Church History teacher was a well known Eastern Orthodox theologian, my Ministry teacher was Methodist, and my psychology teacher was either Episcopal or Catholic. I wrote my master's thesis there on the metaphysical implications of contemporary physics. I became enamored of the writings of Aristotle, the Pragmatism of Charles Sander's Pierce, and the writings of Scott Peck MD.

    But while I was at seminary I also began to take the writings of the apostle Paul in the Bible more seriously, and was very unimpressed by the anti-evolutionist sentiments expressed by Moon. Therefore a few years after I graduated from seminary, while I was a graduate physics student at the University of Utah, fed up with the non-Christian ideas and the internal inconsistencies in the moonie church, I abandoned the moonies for a more traditional (or Pauline as I prefer call it) version of Christianity. In retrospect, however, I think back on an event in High School when I called upon Jesus become a part of my life and save me from myself as the real beginning of the road that has evetually led my where I am today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    I think that when we die we die. Although like everyone, I think it would be nice for there to be a heaven.
    I take this to be your first question that you would like to discuss (even though it was not expressed as a question).

    I believe that there is energy which is not bound to the mathematical laws of physics (which give form to the energy of which the physical universe is composed), that we can call spiritual energy. I believe that quantum physics describes the boundary between these two forms of energy and describes the limits of interaction between them - the physical and the spiritual. I believe this interaction is part of our own intimate experience of human existence when we make choices. These choices do two things at the same time. They effect the course of events in the physical universe as part of the cause for our thoughts and actions, and these choices also give form to the spiritual energy involved in the interaction. Thus while this process gives our bodies and minds the free will that we call life, it also creates a spiritual existence whose laws and form are derived from the choices we make.

    Heaven? Well I don't buy into infantile visions of this. Excepting the reincarnation ideas, the film "What dreams may come" does as good a job as any. The movie does not, to my way of thinking, give an adequate explanation of the dangers (though there is a hint of this when Christy starts to chase after the illusion of his wife), nor does it show the role of religion in all of this. But the movie does describe some of what I think are the basic realities, such as the fact that the basic laws of existence are the creation of personal spirit, and that contact with others is rather difficult. Another is the fact that rather than the truth suddenly being revealed, the truth is actually extremely difficult to obtain because appearances are deceiving - in other words, even more so than when we are alive, we see what we want to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    The other big question for me is how did it start. You can look at the research we have and the theory of the big bang but the question always seem to be 'how?' if there is a god how did he come to be and if the big bang theory is true how did that start.
    I believe that the physical laws of the Universe were designed with a single purpose - to create life. But there I think the role of design ends and the rest is an interactive process between a God who acts not as an artist or engineer but more as a farmer, shepherd and teacher in the raising of life to help it realize its greater potentialities. I, in fact, think that the creation of life is the only logical action of an infinite and perfect God, as something to which He can give of His abundance in an eternal relationship of love.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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  7. #6  
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I believe the universe is God, not a conscious entity just all matter, time, space, energy and history. Without any of those things I would not be here, All hail the universe, creator of all before you!.
    That is also EXACTLY what I believe. The real question though is if free-will exists. If it doesnt then we live in a "dead-god" universe. If free will truly exists, then the universe itself may exhibit some strange kind of intelligent mechanism.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  8. #7 Re: What do you believe. 
    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    Seen as this is a science forum I thought it would be interesting to see what religion you follow or maybe just your view on life basically.

    Fear and power.
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  9. #8  
    Forum Senior anand_kapadia's Avatar
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    'how?' if there is a god how did he come to be and if the big bang theory is true how did that start
    Where did the big bang come from.
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  10. #9  
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    It came from the center of the universe.
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  11. #10  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I believe the universe is God, not a conscious entity just all matter, time, space, energy and history. Without any of those things I would not be here, All hail the universe, creator of all before you!.
    thats right, all hail me, all hail me
    hallowed are zelos

    i belive in nothing. everything can be explained. I am a pure atheist so to speak. I belive in no supernatural stuff or anything. If its real, wich it mostly isnt just faked, its a phenomena that can be explained. there is 2 absolute-truth i think of right now about the universe.
    1: everything obeys the laws of physics, nothing can go against them, they can be twisted and altered but never broken.
    2: everything that is can be detected

    maybe both go under the same thing but that doesnt matter.
    So with this i say i belive in no soul, no god, no ghosts, no elves, nothing like that.
    The closest thing to a super bieng you can see is in the mirror, even thou i begin questioning that aswell. well atleast i see that when i look in the mirror
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  12. #11  
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    I would be closest to a Buddhist but, I do not egree with all of the beliefs... although they would probably think that's ok so maybe I am Buddhist...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Buddha
    Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
    Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
    Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
    Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
    Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
    But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
    I believe in that.

    I have yet to come up with a solid reason to discredit any other religion but, I do not agree with many of them.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  13. #12  
    Forum Junior Bettina's Avatar
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    I'm an atheist.

    When I die I will be buried in the earth until the earth itself returns to the universe. Then, at some point in time, the whole process will start over..... and who knows, I may have already typed this at an earlier time.

    Bee
    Emotionally based life form. The Fword will get you on my ignore list.
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    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Here are a few things I believe. I believe that there are 3 things requiring understanding.... God, the universe and life.

    Of the 3, God seems to be an impossibility. I believe that there is an astronomically low probability that God exists and we really need to understand that and take it to heart, if only to benefit the species.

    The universe and how it came to be seems to be the one thing we may figure out given enough time.

    Life, to me, is the major mystery. I believe life is much more than a chemical reaction. Right now I'd have to say all we know about life is that somehow under certain conditions it manifests itself. I believe life is everywhere but not always in an animated partnership with matter. There is some connection between the two, life & matter, but what it is I have no idea.

    I believe too much of the human endeavor to explore and gain knowledge is wasted on the pursuit of a God figure. I believe the search for God has impeded the progress of man immeasureably.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Of the 3, God seems to be an impossibility. I believe that there is an astronomically low probability that God exists and we really need to understand that and take it to heart, if only to benefit the species.
    Pragmatist that I am, I think the greater benefit to the species is the higher truth. But I do not think that it is clear that universal acceptance of your conclusion is of benefit to the species at all. Life isn't rational. Life is creative. And that which is inpires and energizes the lives of people (whether it is God, science, Harry Potter, or Star Trek) is of greater importance than any abstract "truth".

    I do think that belief in God is not UNIVERSALLY of benefit to ALL human beings. That is why religious freedom is a great thing. If people want to believe in aliens and that gives their lives a focus and energy, who are you to contradict them, no matter how improbable you think it is. For a great number of people in the world the belief in God IS their life, and your estimate of the probabilities in this matter is really of no significance whatsoever. In the end all knowledge is really the product of the creative process of life. Consider human anatomy. Is it knowledge? Sure, rather important knowledge in fact. And yet is it some universal fundamental "truth" of the universe? No. It is the creation of living organisms, no less so than Star Trek and Harry Potter.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    The universe and how it came to be seems to be the one thing we may figure out given enough time.
    One of the universals of scientific discovery is that every answer produces a lot more questions. This is the nature of its rational mathematical structure. For the deterministic nature of mathematical descriptions means that causation is always relegated to earlier and earlier "initial" conditions. Therefore, I think your expectation is unrealistically optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Life, to me, is the major mystery. I believe life is much more than a chemical reaction. Right now I'd have to say all we know about life is that somehow under certain conditions it manifests itself. I believe life is everywhere but not always in an animated partnership with matter. There is some connection between the two, life & matter, but what it is I have no idea.
    It is less of a mystery to me because I see the general outlines of a mathematical description. It is not a chemical reaction at all. It is a process of self-amplification and bifurcation that occurs in non-linear systems. This process can and does occur in many mediums and not just in chemical reactions, athough different mediums provide different degrees of potential for the development of life. The only medium I am aware of with a potential to rival (or even exceed) the medium of chemical reactions is that of information processing.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I believe too much of the human endeavor to explore and gain knowledge is wasted on the pursuit of a God figure. I believe the search for God has impeded the progress of man immeasureably.
    To the coldly rational mind all life is a waste of energy. Life is about creativity and inspiration, not reason. Reason is a valuable tool, but to make it your master is foolish.

    One might as well say that the human appendix and allergies have impeded our progress, that art has wasted our energies, or that entertainment has obstructed our industry. These are the statements of blind men, like the Marxists who only saw value in efforts of the laborer. These facts of life (appendix to entertainment) are inseperable from any meaningful use of the word "progress" in our development as living organisms. Abstract ideas of human "progress" have been the excuse for many human stupidities. Who is to say what is progress? It is no different than the talk of the religious about a "purpose of life". Who is to say what our purpsose of life is? The answer is that that WE are to say - ALL OF US. Deciding what our purpose is and what constitutes progress is part of the creative process of life itself.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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  16. #15  
    Forum Senior anand_kapadia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    It came from the center of the universe.
    So how did it exist to be.
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  17. #16  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Mitchell...spoken like a true champion for the cause. I think a better question would be 'if one of your steadfast beliefs is compromised or even shattered would you be willing to accept the alternative?' I would have no problem switching gears, just prove it to me or show me the logic. This thread only asks for beliefs and I can understand any reaction of the contrary.

    What I like about the thread question is that it exposes a person's thoughts to open criticism while doing the same for the person critiquing. What it does do is prove that beliefs are nothing more than unsubstantiated facts. If it was fact then it wouldn't be a belief would it? Unyielding belief borders on fanaticism which negates logic.

    If people want to believe in aliens and that gives their lives a focus and energy, who are you to contradict them, no matter how improbable you think it is.
    Whoa!!! Remember the question. Take a pill Mitch. A religion's agenda includes the whole world whereas I only posted a private thought. I'm not campaigning to have it become gospel for everybody. For all you know Mitch, is that I made the whole thing up and I don't believe a single word of what I wrote. Ironic that in order to criticize a belief you must first have a belief.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Mitchell...spoken like a true champion for the cause.
    Champion for what cause, however, is the question? From the tone of your response, I am not so sure that you understand this.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I think a better question would be 'if one of your steadfast beliefs is compromised or even shattered would you be willing to accept the alternative?'
    I am no shallow thinker that I pile my ideas on top of quicksand. I ask myself every sort of question. What if someone found evidence that the world was created 6000 years ago? Would my system of beliefs come tumbling down? Hardly. That may give a lot of creationists another thread by which to cling to their stubborn beliefs, but how can such "evidence" suddenly destroy the already overwhelming evidence that the universe is 10-20 billion years old? Similarly I do not grasp at the slim threads that some atheists cling to in the face of the overwhelming evidence that religion is part of what it means to be a human being and a part of their development, indulging in some childish fantasy about a world where everyone finally agrees with atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I would have no problem switching gears, just prove it to me or show me the logic. This thread only asks for beliefs and I can understand any reaction of the contrary.
    ...
    For all you know Mitch, is that I made the whole thing up and I don't believe a single word of what I wrote. Ironic that in order to criticize a belief you must first have a belief.
    Yes and thanks for sharing. I found your post more interesting than most. Unlike others, it provoked thoughts of my own that I thought worth sharing. Likewise, you may find what I write interesting or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    What I like about the thread question is that it exposes a person's thoughts to open criticism while doing the same for the person critiquing. What it does do is prove that beliefs are nothing more than unsubstantiated facts.
    No! This is part of what you continue to fail to grasp. Beliefs are far more than unsubstantiated "facts", as you call them. Reality is not this purely objective, isolated and unchanging thing out there. It is, in fact, primarily a subjective thing in which we are intimately entangled and in which we play an enormous role in creating.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    If it was fact then it wouldn't be a belief would it? Unyielding belief borders on fanaticism which negates logic.
    You imagine a sharp distinction between fact and belief where there really is no well defined difference. It is a continuous spectrum. There is however a difference in what "evidence" we take seriously and what evidence we choose to ignore. Perhaps, you would like to imagine that science is based on ignoring no evidence, but that is contrary to historical fact. Science is in fact based upon ignoring certain types of evidence to see an underlying mathematical structure. What you call "unyielding belief" is simply a different filter based on different premises and priorities. One way to escape the bias of such filters is to embrace a more flexible "pluralistic" approach where you can see reality from more than one set of premises and filters, and like a holograph, piece the information or ideas from these various points of view into a more complete "3-dimensional" image of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    If people want to believe in aliens and that gives their lives a focus and energy, who are you to contradict them, no matter how improbable you think it is.
    Whoa!!! Remember the question. Take a pill Mitch. A religion's agenda includes the whole world whereas I only posted a private thought. I'm not campaigning to have it become gospel for everybody.
    You take a pill, yourself. There is no reason to over-react. This is a friendly discussion.

    You talk about religion as if it were some conspiratorial "THEY". Every religion including atheism has its own agenda, and the majority leave the world alone. Some like atheism and Christianity are more agressive, filled with some (neurotic?) need to convince everyone of its correctness. Christian though I am, I do not share any such need. If I am a champion of anything it a champion of pluralism and religious freedom, promoting respect and appreciation for diversity as part of the innate beauty (and strength!) of living things.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    One of the universals of scientific discovery is that every answer produces a lot more questions. This is the nature of its rational mathematical structure. For the deterministic nature of mathematical descriptions means that causation is always relegated to earlier and earlier "initial" conditions. Therefore, I think your expectation is unrealistically optimistic.
    This is in fact one of the advantages of my metaphysics which sees the universe as more than simply an inanimate 4 dimensional object. Instead of endlessly "preponing" (word coined by http://www.numenorean.net/blog/archi..._indian_e.html) the cause of things to earlier and earlier events, quantum events are constantly suppying new first causes altering the course of physical events. This brings the universe to life as something which changes and develops by more than just deterministic and mechanical propagation of cause without any ultimate cause for anything.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  20. #19  
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    I'm both atheist and agnostic. I don't believe there's a God (though I may certainly be wrong) but I also believe it's impossible to know one way or the other.
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  21. #20  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    I'm both atheist and agnostic. I don't believe there's a God (though I may certainly be wrong) but I also believe it's impossible to know one way or the other.
    use logic and you will know the answer in minutes
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  22. #21  
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    anand_kapadia wrote:
    So how did it (the Big Bang) exist to be.
    I think at present scientists haven't figured it out yet. The problem looks quite formidable.

    Neutrino wrote:
    I'm both atheist and agnostic. I don't believe there's a God (though I may certainly be wrong) but I also believe it's impossible to know one way or the other.
    Could you explain more why you believe it is impossible?

    Mitch wrote:
    Similarly I do not grasp at the slim threads that some atheists cling to in the face of the overwhelming evidence that religion is part of what it means to be a human being and a part of their development, indulging in some childish fantasy about a world where everyone finally agrees with atheism.
    Do you mean Atheists are not human being?
    I agree that it is extremely unlikely that everyone in the world will be an atheist, since every new generation has been brainwashed to believe in their parents' religion from childhood. Had they been taught about evolution BEFORE about God the ultimate creator, the outcome would surely have been very different.
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  23. #22  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Similarly I do not grasp at the slim threads that some atheists cling to in the face of the overwhelming evidence that religion is part of what it means to be a human being and a part of their development, indulging in some childish fantasy about a world where everyone finally agrees with atheism
    religion ,is if shall be classefied in anyway with human bieng, is a primetive thing. The lack of will to find the real answers, taking the easy way out. People who dont have the will to think on their own. Just bieng slaves.

    Life isn't rational
    universe is based on logic
    so everything in the universe is based on logic
    life is logical even if complex logic

    If people want to believe in aliens and that gives their lives a focus and energy
    not really it just takes it away, they lose focus on reality and alot of energy and time is wasted for a dead cause

    who are you to contradict them, no matter how improbable you think it is
    the bringer of saneness

    Life, to me, is the major mystery. I believe life is much more than a chemical reaction.
    you got the freedom to think what ever you, belive what ever you want, say what ever you want, but it will never change how life or the universe is or what it is.

    To the coldly rational mind all life is a waste of energy. Life is about creativity and inspiration, not reason. Reason is a valuable tool, but to make it your master is foolish.
    life is about reproduction. not creativity. Creativity is a tool for survival. So is reason. Reason is more valuable than creativity but both must be.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  24. #23  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    life is about reproduction. not creativity. Creativity is a tool for survival. So is reason. Reason is more valuable than creativity but both must be.
    You have reduced life to a virus - a disease, and proved my point, that "to the coldly rational mind all life is a waste of energy."
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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  25. #24  
    Forum Senior anand_kapadia's Avatar
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    I think at present scientists haven't figured it out yet. The problem looks quite formidable.
    There's where the main problem lies. Can you not guess it as a creation of God.
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  26. #25  
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    It is too easy. When we don't know the answer, we say God did it or made it. A primitive tribe could not figure why some days it rains, some days it doesn't, so they say the Rain God make it. So they dance to worship the God (they imagine God would like it).
    Now modern men think this primitive tribe are ignorant. Of course, God did not make the rain, he did make the Big Bang.
    500 years from now, what will the future men think?
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  27. #26  
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    You have reduced life to a virus - a disease, and proved my point, that "to the coldly rational mind all life is a waste of energy."
    nope i havent ive just said how it is. a waste of energy? from wich or whats point of view? from the universes point of view life does it work great

    rational > emotional

    what will the future men think?
    im form that time and we think "oh man how stupid could people be back then to belive in a imaginary friend like a little child?"
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  28. #27  
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    Mitch wrote:
    You have reduced life to a virus - a disease, and proved my point, that "to the coldly rational mind all life is a waste of energy."
    Zelos claims that he is the destroyer of planets, exterminator of life and conqueror of worlds. Now you say he has reduced life to a virus. Quite scary.
    It is interesting to know what the coldly rational mind think of a better use of energy so that it is not wasted (does it not contradict conservation of energy?). Make sun hotter, perhaps?
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Neutrino wrote:
    I'm both atheist and agnostic. I don't believe there's a God (though I may certainly be wrong) but I also believe it's impossible to know one way or the other.
    Could you explain more why you believe it is impossible?
    If God does not exist, you have no way of knowing that for sure. He might be up there but have no involvement in the universe. Maybe he just kick started the whole thing. You cannot with 100% certainty claim God does not exist.

    If God does exist, you can't know that for sure either. Even if he came down himself and you spoke with him all night, you have no way of knowing for sure that this being was GOD. Maybe it was a hallucination. Maybe a dream. Maybe it was an alien. Maybe you're actually a computer program and someone programmed the experience.

    But you can't know for SURE either way you slice it.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    It is too easy. When we don't know the answer, we say God did it or made it. A primitive tribe could not figure why some days it rains, some days it doesn't, so they say the Rain God make it. So they dance to worship the God (they imagine God would like it).
    Now modern men think this primitive tribe are ignorant. Of course, God did not make the rain, he did make the Big Bang.
    500 years from now, what will the future men think?
    Just think to the last(used in terms of beginning) of the universe and every time you figure out the answer you would have another question on your desk where did that came from.
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    Neutrino wrote:
    If God does not exist, you have no way of knowing that for sure. He might be up there but have no involvement in the universe. Maybe he just kick started the whole thing. You cannot with 100% certainty claim God does not exist.
    The probability of God existence may well be on par with the probability of an English teapot floating in the asteroid belts orbiting around the sun. I can not claim with 100% certainty, but I can claim with 99.999% certainty that God does not exist. Does not make me agnostic too? Or should it be roughly 50-50 chance of belief to make you an agnostic?

    anand_kapadia wrote:
    Just think to the last(used in terms of beginning) of the universe and every time you figure out the answer you would have another question on your desk where did that came from.
    Isn't that exciting? We learn more and more and the knowledge gained is both fascinating and useful. If we took the easy path to say that God did it, no more question, that will spoil the fun of learning.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Neutrino wrote:
    If God does not exist, you have no way of knowing that for sure. He might be up there but have no involvement in the universe. Maybe he just kick started the whole thing. You cannot with 100% certainty claim God does not exist.
    The probability of God existence may well be on par with the probability of an English teapot floating in the asteroid belts orbiting around the sun. I can not claim with 100% certainty, but I can claim with 99.999% certainty that God does not exist. Does not make me agnostic too? Or should it be roughly 50-50 chance of belief to make you an agnostic?

    anand_kapadia wrote:
    Just think to the last(used in terms of beginning) of the universe and every time you figure out the answer you would have another question on your desk where did that came from.
    Isn't that exciting? We learn more and more and the knowledge gained is both fascinating and useful. If we took the easy path to say that God did it, no more question, that will spoil the fun of learning.
    I just KNEW Wedgewood was God !!
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Zelos claims that he is the destroyer of planets, exterminator of life and conqueror of worlds. Now you say he has reduced life to a virus. Quite scary.
    trust me, if i were to reduce life to anything, it would be dust
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Neutrino wrote:
    If God does not exist, you have no way of knowing that for sure. He might be up there but have no involvement in the universe. Maybe he just kick started the whole thing. You cannot with 100% certainty claim God does not exist.
    The probability of God existence may well be on par with the probability of an English teapot floating in the asteroid belts orbiting around the sun. I can not claim with 100% certainty, but I can claim with 99.999% certainty that God does not exist. Does not make me agnostic too? Or should it be roughly 50-50 chance of belief to make you an agnostic?
    How exactly can you even be 99% sure he doesn't exist? It's not possible he kick started the universe and let the laws of nature take over from there? God can do anything - he can certainly arrange the universe with certain laws to develop into any type of universe he wants.
    You can with MUCH more certainly discuss the possible locations of teapots than you can about the existence of God. Not an applicable analogy.
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    Personally my money's on the teapot, and that it would still be warm.

    Out of interest how can you be 100% sure he does exist?

    Although you do not say 100% the fact that you say "He can certainly arrange.." in effect means there is no dobt in your mind and also that 'god' is a male, Surely if you can be that certain then you must allow us the courtesy of being certain!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Out of interest how can you be 100% sure he does exist?
    You're not asking me that, are you? My position is that it's impossible to know 100% either way, which is why I am and will always be agnostic. However I don't believe he exists, so I'm also atheist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Although you do not say 100% the fact that you say "He can certainly arrange.." in effect means there is no dobt in your mind and also that 'god' is a male, Surely if you can be that certain then you must allow us the courtesy of being certain!
    I am addressing someone claiming to know with 99.999% certainly that he does not exist. So I am supposing he is wrong, which means for the purposes of my example he exists. That doesn't mean I believe it, but you can't discount the possibility.
    And give me a break about the "He". It's convention. Sure beats "It" don't you think?
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  37. #36  
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    You said "He can certainly arrange" certainty IS 100 % that's what the word means.

    You worded it as though you were a believer! :?
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    You said "He can certainly arrange" certainty IS 100 % that's what the word means.
    Supposing an omnipotent God exists, he can by definition accomplish what I stated can he not?
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    Too late to debate It's 1am here.
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    I base my claim on two things:

    1. There is no evidence to support that God exists. I don't accept the relationale that if the cause is unknown, it must be God's work.

    2. There is other explanation that better conforms to the scientific theories. For example, you can say it is possible that God just creates everything a minute ago, including fossils, carbon dating etc. to make it looks like the unverse is very old when, in fact, it was one minute old. No one can prove it is not so, because He make everything so convincing.
    But I won't believe it. I believe 99.999% that the universe is very very old.

    A hundred years ago people will argue that He kicked start the birth of first human pair and let it go from there. Now, with the light of science shining strong, His kick-start has moved back, in space as in time, to where the light has not yet fully illuminated.

    Now if you say that God exists, he does nothing, he interacts with nothing, undetectable by any means practically and theoretically. THAT is unproveable.
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    I personally am a member of the "Church of Mac". We hold services in the "big screen room" of the local sports bar during all major sporting events. We hold communion consisting of pints of lager and buffalo wings. We also pray every time the Cowboys need to kick a critical field goal.
    Our religion does have a heaven and hell. Heaven is when the Mavericks beat the spread, and hell is when we blow a 3-0 series lead in the finals.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    I personally am a member of the "Church of Mac". We hold services in the "big screen room" of the local sports bar during all major sporting events. We hold communion consisting of pints of lager and buffalo wings. We also pray every time the Cowboys need to kick a critical field goal.
    Our religion does have a heaven and hell. Heaven is when the Mavericks beat the spread, and hell is when we blow a 3-0 series lead in the finals.
    As long as that's all that gets blown, you'll be ok. :wink:
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    To the first question:

    I believe that there is a cosmic purpose. I believe that every quantum or string or whatever is part of that purpose. I believe the purpose to be beyond our comprehension. I believe the purpose is ineffably beautiful and good. I can't prove it; I can't argue a case for it; but I believe it to be true.

    I don't call the purpose God, because I think that means something more, less or different to most people.

    To the second question:

    It's reasonable to accept the theory of the Big Bang. The variations are irrelevant to the question. How did it happen? I can't imagine.

    To the third question:

    The purpose is eternal, and is not a product of the space-time continuum, nor a product of any ‘multiverse’, or of anything else. The purpose is beyond the limited scope of science, whose province is confined to the physical universe.
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins

    I just KNEW Wedgewood was God !!
    Careful there Leo. Wedgwood's daughter became Mrs Darwin if I remember correctly...
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