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Thread: Beliefs of Christians regarding curses. Have they changed over time?

  1. #1 Beliefs of Christians regarding curses. Have they changed over time? 
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    Putting Beliefs + of Christians + regarding + curses as a Google search brings up 11,100,000 results, so how many lifetimes of reading in that?
    My next trepidation was who defines what a Christian believes for I would imagine there is a vast variety of teachings on this topic out there.
    But can we get a handle on it, and why has it changed?
    Are there any Christians left on this site? Help me out and tell me what you believe (or have been taught), thanks.

    A good starting point is to get the definition of the word (In this study I would like to keep the discussion to the first use of the word. I have removed some of the meaning of the word.)
    Google definition:
    curse
    noun
    1. a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.
    "she'd put a curse on him"
    synonyms: malediction, the evil eye, imprecation, execration, voodoo, hoodoo;
    a cause of harm or misery.
    "impatience is the curse of our day and age"
    synonyms: evil, blight, scourge, plague, cancer, canker, poison
    antonyms: blessing, advantage
    2. an offensive word or phrase used to express anger or annoyance.
    "at every blow there was a curse"
    synonyms: swear word, expletive, oath, profanity, four-letter word, dirty word, obscenity, imprecation, blasphemy, vulgarism, vulgarity;


    verb
    verb: curse; 3rd person present: curses; past tense: cursed; past participle: cursed; gerund or present participle: cursing
    1. invoke or use a curse against.
    "it often seemed as if the family had been cursed"
    synonyms: put a curse on, put the evil eye on, execrate, imprecate, hoodoo;
    be afflicted with.
    "many owners have been cursed with a series of bankruptcies"
    synonyms: be afflicted with, be troubled by, be plagued with, suffer from, be burdened with, be blighted with, be bedevilled by ...
    antonyms: be blessed with

    2. utter offensive words in anger or annoyance.
    "he cursed loudly as he burned his hand"
    synonyms: swear, utter profanities, utter oaths, use bad/foul language, be foul-mouthed, blaspheme, be blasphemous, take the Lord's name in vain, swear like a trooper, damn;


    Trying to get a lead into the topic and discovered this really woo woo video "5 Ancient Curses Still Haunting People Today" I remembered two of them only.


    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 17th, 2014 at 03:14 AM. Reason: definition added.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Putting Beliefs + of Christians + regarding + curses as a Google search brings up 11,100,000 results, so how many lifetimes of reading in that?
    Well get to it and let us know when you are finished.

    My next trepidation was who defines what a Christian believes for I would imagine there is a vast variety of teachings on this topic out there.
    I would imagine the Christian defines what he or she believes.

    But can we get a handle on it, and why has it changed?
    Get a handle on what? And what has changed?

    Are there any Christians left on this site? Help me out and tell me what you believe (or have been taught), thanks.
    Probably.

    But like most people, they will rarely identify with a woo amongst them. You know, they may not wish to be tarnished with the woo..

    A good starting point is to get the definition of the word (In this study I would like to keep the discussion to the first use of the word. I have removed some of the meaning of the word.)
    I don't know about anyone else and what other meanings you snipped out of it, but I'm going with the number 2 right now.

    Instead of spells and curses that say, is designed to make you ill or even go bald!
    By the power of wind and sea with the spirit of rain and mud,
    your mane once long and full will become a plain skull, making it subject to ridicule.
    From now on you'll lose your hair leaving your head naked and bare.




    Enjoy your hair by the way...

    (Insert witch cackle here)


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    My Dad reckoned I'd go bald like my grandfather but his sons have retained their hair quite well. I don't hold much faith in your witchy incantation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    My Dad reckoned I'd go bald like my grandfather but his sons have retained their hair quite well. I don't hold much faith in your witchy incantation.
    Why not? How is it different to any other curse?
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    ~ Roberttybob knows he can count on me to cut the messing about and answer the idiotic question forthwith, Yes the belief of curses has changed. There being a time when education did not reach the general public. When out of fear of the unknown and strange,. Led people to believe all sorts of weird stuff.
    ~ Any person who has had a balanced education of the sciences must identify that a curse is not a substantiated reality at all.
    ~Yes there are Christians who are astronomers and scientists.. But might I suggest that a scientist / astronomer whom might be a religious person might also not expect a literal meaning to be taken as fact of all of the compiled bibles.. A governing set of behaviors..
    Why has the view of the curse changed.. education.

    and baldness is hardly a curse.. Patric Stewart is a very fine looking man.. Male pattern baldness could be seen as a aset because so many men now shave their heads.. go figure.. ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    My Dad reckoned I'd go bald like my grandfather but his sons have retained their hair quite well. I don't hold much faith in your witchy incantation.
    Why not? How is it different to any other curse?
    I'm not an expert on curses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ Roberttybob knows he can count on me to cut the messing about and answer the idiotic question forthwith, Yes the belief of curses has changed. There being a time when education did not reach the general public. When out of fear of the unknown and strange,. Led people to believe all sorts of weird stuff.
    ~ Any person who has had a balanced education of the sciences must identify that a curse is not a substantiated reality at all.
    ~Yes there are Christians who are astronomers and scientists.. But might I suggest that a scientist / astronomer whom might be a religious person might also not expect a literal meaning to be taken as fact of all of the compiled bibles.. A governing set of behaviors..
    Why has the view of the curse changed.. education.

    and baldness is hardly a curse.. Patrick Stewart is a very fine looking man.. Male pattern baldness could be seen as a asset because so many men now shave their heads.. go figure.. ?
    Today we have the curse of the internet. So much weird shit can be written about a person on-line. I've just been looking about the rubbish written about John Travolta and the death of his son. He would feel cursed if he read any of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Today we have the curse of the internet. So much weird shit can be written about a person on-line. I've just been looking about the rubbish written about John Travolta and the death of his son. He would feel cursed if he read any of it.
    Huh.
    Only if he believes in such nonsense.

    Perhaps you should define what you mean by curse. If you just mean a string of coincidental bad luck than of course they exist.

    I took your OP meaning to be some superstitious/supernatural forces doing bad things to people.

    In a dated survey by Pew of American's it was found not many believe in them (16%). Many Americans Mix Multiple Faiths | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
    (regardless of what their religious text tell them).
    --
    I agree with Astromark, education has probably reduced belief in curses (and other superstitious) more than anything else.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 18th, 2014 at 04:27 PM.
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    Exorcism must still practiced in the Catholic Church to get rid of the curse of an evil spirit as my local priest has told me he is an exorcist. The use of the crucifix was employed to get rid of a gypsy curse on a professional football club in the 1980's. It didn't improve their fortunes though. The use of holy water sprinkled by a priest is still believed to fight misfortune by people suffering hardship (cursed by the devil of economics). An area in the south midlands is still known as witch country. All this is in England where paganism can still be found in conjunction with Christianity, but it is becoming rarer. Although (and I hate to say this) the Fairy Faith is still found in parts of Ireland with all its fear and superstition. How many people out there are changelings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Today we have the curse of the internet. So much weird shit can be written about a person on-line. I've just been looking about the rubbish written about John Travolta and the death of his son. He would feel cursed if he read any of it.
    Huh.
    Only if he believes in such nonsense.

    Perhaps you should define what you mean by curse. If you just mean a string of coincidental bad luck than of course they exist.

    I took your OP meaning to be some superstitious/supernatural forces doing bad things to people.

    In a dated survey by Pew of American's it was found not many belief in them (16%). Many Americans Mix Multiple Faiths | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
    (regardless of what their religious text tell them).
    --
    I agree with Astromark, education has probably reduced belief in curses (and other superstitious) more than anything else.
    I don't disagree that education is helpful. Part of the modern culture is to be PC, which discourages negative thinking.

    About John Travolta - it was more the vastness of the negative opinion out there about him. I just felt it would act like a curse. It would get you down if you read that about yourself. Did he deserve it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't disagree that education is helpful. Part of the modern culture is to be PC, which discourages negative thinking.
    It's not about positive or negative thinking. It's about critical thinking, one that uses reasoning and logic which an effective education generally teaches people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't disagree that education is helpful. Part of the modern culture is to be PC, which discourages negative thinking.
    It's not about positive or negative thinking. It's about critical thinking, one that uses reasoning and logic which an effective education generally teaches people.
    So could you take me through the first couple of steps of applying critical thinking to curses please.
    Maybe there wasn't critical thinking applied right from the start. My first encounter of curses at school was regarding the Aborigine people and how they would "point the bone" at someone and that person would die.
    Have you heard of that practice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Putting Beliefs + of Christians + regarding + curses as a Google search brings up 11,100,000 results, so how many lifetimes of reading in that?
    My next trepidation was who defines what a Christian believes for I would imagine there is a vast variety of teachings on this topic out there.
    But can we get a handle on it, and why has it changed?
    Are there any Christians left on this site? Help me out and tell me what you believe (or have been taught), thanks.

    A good starting point is to get the definition of the word (In this study I would like to keep the discussion to the first use of the word. I have removed some of the meaning of the word.)
    Google definition:
    curse
    noun
    1. a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.
    "she'd put a curse on him"
    synonyms: malediction, the evil eye, imprecation, execration, voodoo, hoodoo;
    a cause of harm or misery.
    "impatience is the curse of our day and age"
    synonyms: evil, blight, scourge, plague, cancer, canker, poison
    antonyms: blessing, advantage
    2. an offensive word or phrase used to express anger or annoyance.
    "at every blow there was a curse"
    synonyms: swear word, expletive, oath, profanity, four-letter word, dirty word, obscenity, imprecation, blasphemy, vulgarism, vulgarity;


    verb
    verb: curse; 3rd person present: curses; past tense: cursed; past participle: cursed; gerund or present participle: cursing
    1. invoke or use a curse against.
    "it often seemed as if the family had been cursed"
    synonyms: put a curse on, put the evil eye on, execrate, imprecate, hoodoo;
    be afflicted with.
    "many owners have been cursed with a series of bankruptcies"
    synonyms: be afflicted with, be troubled by, be plagued with, suffer from, be burdened with, be blighted with, be bedevilled by ...
    antonyms: be blessed with

    2. utter offensive words in anger or annoyance.
    "he cursed loudly as he burned his hand"
    synonyms: swear, utter profanities, utter oaths, use bad/foul language, be foul-mouthed, blaspheme, be blasphemous, take the Lord's name in vain, swear like a trooper, damn;


    Trying to get a lead into the topic and discovered this really woo woo video "5 Ancient Curses Still Haunting People Today" I remembered two of them only.
    This is all a bit rambling and unclear, but on the assumption your question is about what Christianity's attitude has been to curses, I would think curses would have been seen as part of witchcraft. The early and mediaeval church - or parts of it - did think that people could enlist the help of the devil to achieve supernatural effects. There is plenty of history of this and the persecution of people thought to be witches, whether or not this was officially sanctioned by the senior hierarchy. Exorcism is something that some priests still do today, though "possession" is no longer associated with supernatural powers.
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    The Old Testament ends with "a curse."

    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
    Malachi 4
    King James Version
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    Smiting is against the law!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    This is all a bit rambling and unclear, but on the assumption your question is about what Christianity's attitude has been to curses, I would think curses would have been seen as part of witchcraft. The early and mediaeval church - or parts of it - did think that people could enlist the help of the devil to achieve supernatural effects. There is plenty of history of this and the persecution of people thought to be witches, whether or not this was officially sanctioned by the senior hierarchy. Exorcism is something that some priests still do today, though "possession" is no longer associated with supernatural powers.
    Thanks exchemist. Curses witchcraft! I was amazed when I read that Jesus cursed a fig tree for not having fruit on it out of season. Now I found that to be rather irrational. Why blame the tree for not baring fruit out of season? Did he expect miracles to happen ahead of him? OK so he curses the tree and next day it is withered.

    Coincidence or not it is odd for why would they write about Jesus like that? And with today's dislike of curses, I see people reading a different meaning into this episode.
    Further on in the NT St. Paul curses someone and they go blind. Theologically speaking, is it the Devil's workers or good angels that do the saint's bidding?

    I can only think it is the "good side" that implements the Saint's curse not witchcraft.

    [I've never attempted to argue this before so I would NOT guarantee I'm correct. But we'll see.]
    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 19th, 2014 at 01:33 AM. Reason: always forgetting the word NOT sorry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't disagree that education is helpful. Part of the modern culture is to be PC, which discourages negative thinking.
    It's not about positive or negative thinking. It's about critical thinking, one that uses reasoning and logic which an effective education generally teaches people.
    So could you take me through the first couple of steps of applying critical thinking to curses please.
    Maybe there wasn't critical thinking applied right from the start. My first encounter of curses at school was regarding the Aborigine people and how they would "point the bone" at someone and that person would die.
    Have you heard of that practice?
    It's pretty simple.

    The default position is phenomena don't exist unless there's credible independent evidence of it even happening. Your simple account of the aborigines would fail from the get go--end of story--conclusion is obvious--that curse doesn't exist.
    Than if it somehow manifest itself in some physical way that appears to be measurable by credible observers, then you apply occam's razor to the phenomena--the simplest explanation, given what we already know about the natural world is the most "reasonable" and likely. A finger was pointed and someone died? Can we rule out coincidence? Can we rule out simple fear? Can we rule out self destructive psychology of the person who thinks they are cursed (suicide); can we rule out actions by the community towards the person that resulted in their death?

    If those fail is there a realistic plausible explanation for something between the finger pointing and the dead person? What possible forces that can be measured could have had that effect? This is the matter of sort out simple correlation from causation. If there's no apparent physical force than it's most likely the wrong explanation, even if there was a correlation. And each idea about what did cause the event now has to be examined through the eyes of the scientific method: development of hypothesis, testing against observations etc.

    Other than psychological trauma or action by the other people there seems to be nothing credible about either curses ever happening or anything supernatural about them if they do seem to take place.

    And even after doing all this if it's still left unresolved, that doesn't mean a pet idea can be plugged in to fill the gap--sometimes phenomena simply remain unknown either for lack of observation or a known possible phenomena.

    Just about everything supernatural/superstitious can be discarded this way as nonsense.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 18th, 2014 at 08:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's pretty simple.

    The default position is phenomena don't exist unless there's credible independent evidence of it even happening. Your simple account of the aborigines would fail from the get go--end of story--conclusion is obvious--that curse doesn't exist.
    Than if it somehow manifest itself in some physical way that appears to be measurable by credible observers, then you apply occam's razor to the phenomena--the simplest explanation, given what we already know about the natural world is the most "reasonable" and likely. A finger was pointed and someone died? Can we rule out coincidence? Can we rule out simple fear? Can we rule out self destructive psychology of the person who thinks they are cursed (suicide); can we rule out actions by the community towards the person that resulted in their death?

    If those fail is there a realistic plausible explanation for something between the finger pointing and the dead person? What possible forces that can be measured could have had that effect? This is the matter of sort out simple correlation from causation. If there's no apparent physical force than it's most likely the wrong explanation, even if there was a correlation. And each idea about what did cause the event now has to be examined through the eyes of the scientific method: development of hypothesis, testing against observations etc.

    Other than psychological trauma or action by the other people there seems to be nothing credible about either curses ever happening or anything supernatural about them if they do seem to take place.

    And even after doing all this if it's still left unresolved, that doesn't mean a pet idea can be plugged in to fill the gap--sometimes phenomena simply remain unknown either for lack of observation or a known possible phenomena.

    Just about everything supernatural/superstitious can be discarded this way as nonsense.
    There was a well written explanation of how the curse is performed. It was described as being psychosomatic, it being like
    a "spear of thought" which pierces the victim when the bone is pointed at him. It is as if an actual spear has been thrust at him and his death is certain.
    Kurdaitcha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It reminded me of the practice of the Jews to determine if a person has committed adultery it was called the "Ordeal of the bitter water". Ordeal of the bitter water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now that too is a psychosomatic illness with specific signs. But basically the accused aborts or gets ill from a blood poisoning if guilty.
    OK I have only read about one person ever having to go through that trial and that was a story about Mary the Mother of Jesus. She had been accused of adultery but she survived the Trial of Bitter Water. (Was it in the Book of James?)
    Additionally some early Christian legends embroider the life of Mary, mother of Jesus with accounts including Mary undergoing the ordeal.[27]
    Numbers 5 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
    Numbers5:12-31.
    It certainly makes you wonder about the culture of the day, and I suppose some societies are still like this. It was used to resolve jealousy, and once the wife passed the test the husband had no more argument with her. That's great isn't it? Sure beats the life long agony my mother had to put up with!

    Is a psychosomatic illness a real thing?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 19th, 2014 at 01:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It certainly makes you wonder about the culture of the day, and I suppose some societies are still like this.
    Misogynistic and barbaric?

    It was used to resolve jealousy, and once the wife passed the test the husband had no more argument with her. That's great isn't it? Sure beats the life long agony my mother had to put up with!
    If you consider ritualistic poisoning, attempted murder and public humiliation to be great, sure.

    Is a psychosomatic illness a real thing?
    Yes.
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    I fail to comprehend why this is being discussed. That some old cultures and just a few modern ones, ( thinking the Gypsy's ) are a bit thin and almost treated as with ridicule deserved. We are a science forum. There is NO science to curses.. Hysterical spiritualism's.. are rejected by science. Woo woo nut bar crazies might think you can be cursed., and suffer greatly if you were.. I would reject such as utter nonsense. The field of uneducated superstitious fools. Yes our view of curses has changed. We now know that they are a faith based nonsense. and to the last point Yes mental illness is real and rising.. The pressures of the modern world are not well educated as to be easy to deal with.. A greater number of young people fail to adjust to the pace of this reality. That might be the curse of the 21 st century..and humanities downfall. I wonder if that's wrong too... ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    I fail to comprehend why this is being discussed. That some old cultures and just a few modern ones, ( thinking the Gypsy's ) are a bit thin and almost treated as with ridicule deserved. We are a science forum. There is NO science to curses.. Hysterical spiritualism's.. are rejected by science. Woo woo nut bar crazies might think you can be cursed., and suffer greatly if you were.. I would reject such as utter nonsense. The field of uneducated superstitious fools. Yes our view of curses has changed. We now know that they are a faith based nonsense. and to the last point Yes mental illness is real and rising.. The pressures of the modern world are not well educated as to be easy to deal with.. A greater number of young people fail to adjust to the pace of this reality. That might be the curse of the 21 st century..and humanities downfall. I wonder if that's wrong too... ?
    I think that's because the discussion has gone a bit off track. The OP was not very clearly expressed, but seemed to be about what Christians have believed about curses, over the course of history. This strikes me as a quite sensible (and actually non-trivial) enquiry. It was not, as I read it, supposed to be about what readers of this forum believe in respect of curses.

    I think it is quite interesting to consider how superstition has coexisted with religious belief, the overlap between the two and the distinctions between them, especially as we have moved into the scientific age since the Renaissance. There could be a fairly decent PhD thesis in that, I'd have thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It certainly makes you wonder about the culture of the day, and I suppose some societies are still like this.
    Misogynistic and barbaric?

    It was used to resolve jealousy, and once the wife passed the test the husband had no more argument with her. That's great isn't it? Sure beats the life long agony my mother had to put up with!
    If you consider ritualistic poisoning, attempted murder and public humiliation to be great, sure.

    Is a psychosomatic illness a real thing?
    Yes.
    I think you missed the point; if the woman was free of "sin" she survived, or remained well. Her conscience controls her own psychosomatic response to the curse.
    Well that's how I am understanding it. A bit like a lie detector machine, it is your body's responses that determine the outcome.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 20th, 2014 at 01:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    I fail to comprehend why this is being discussed. That some old cultures and just a few modern ones, ( thinking the Gypsy's ) are a bit thin and almost treated as with ridicule deserved. We are a science forum. There is NO science to curses.. Hysterical spiritualism's.. are rejected by science. Woo woo nut bar crazies might think you can be cursed., and suffer greatly if you were.. I would reject such as utter nonsense. The field of uneducated superstitious fools. Yes our view of curses has changed. We now know that they are a faith based nonsense. and to the last point Yes mental illness is real and rising.. The pressures of the modern world are not well educated as to be easy to deal with.. A greater number of young people fail to adjust to the pace of this reality. That might be the curse of the 21 st century..and humanities downfall. I wonder if that's wrong too... ?
    I think that's because the discussion has gone a bit off track. The OP was not very clearly expressed, but seemed to be about what Christians have believed about curses, over the course of history. This strikes me as a quite sensible (and actually non-trivial) enquiry. It was not, as I read it, supposed to be about what readers of this forum believe in respect of curses.

    I think it is quite interesting to consider how superstition has coexisted with religious belief, the overlap between the two and the distinctions between them, especially as we have moved into the scientific age since the Renaissance. There could be a fairly decent PhD thesis in that, I'd have thought.
    I started the thread on a suggestion from Lynx_fox not knowing where it will lead but in fact it is developing into a very interesting topic.

    The Christian attitude to cursing might be a little more complicated to define, but these extraordinary examples of curses in other cultures give us an interesting introduction to the world of curses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think you missed the point; if the woman was free of "sin" she survived, or remained well. Her conscience controls her own psychosomatic response to the curse.
    Well that's how I am understanding it. A bit like a lie detector machine, it is your body's responses that determine the outcome.
    A psychosomatic response is not exactly something that can be controlled without therapy..

    A person who is stressed, is not responding how a bunch of backwards misogynistic puritanical men expect her to respond to, would face being murdered. The witch trials come to mind. Thousands of innocent women, men and children burnt at the stake, drowned or tortured to death because of the religious beliefs of puritans who expected women to act a certain way.

    These were cultures where women were secondary, entirely patriarchal. Women had few rights and to prove her innocence, she would have to drink something that could very well be poisonous or dangerous to prove her innocence in front of her husband, who by his very sex had the authority of God over her, not to mention jealous ownership, as well as the temple priests.. If she fell ill, she would be stoned to death.

    How anyone could consider this a great idea is beyond me. You could only consider it a great idea if you have such little respect of women.

    Any of these sorts of trials were barbaric and were designed to put and keep women in their place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think you missed the point; if the woman was free of "sin" she survived, or remained well. Her conscience controls her own psychosomatic response to the curse.
    Well that's how I am understanding it. A bit like a lie detector machine, it is your body's responses that determine the outcome.
    A psychosomatic response is not exactly something that can be controlled without therapy..

    A person who is stressed, is not responding how a bunch of backwards misogynistic puritanical men expect her to respond to, would face being murdered. The witch trials come to mind. Thousands of innocent women, men and children burnt at the stake, drowned or tortured to death because of the religious beliefs of puritans who expected women to act a certain way.

    These were cultures where women were secondary, entirely patriarchal. Women had few rights and to prove her innocence, she would have to drink something that could very well be poisonous or dangerous to prove her innocence in front of her husband, who by his very sex had the authority of God over her, not to mention jealous ownership, as well as the temple priests.. If she fell ill, she would be stoned to death.

    How anyone could consider this a great idea is beyond me. You could only consider it a great idea if you have such little respect of women.

    Any of these sorts of trials were barbaric and were designed to put and keep women in their place.
    What I noticed there was no trial for a husband who was thought by his wife to be sleeping around! That would have made it a tad fairer, one trial for the unfaithful wife and another for the unfaithful husband.
    This trial was just to relieve jealousy. The woman would not be stoned to death, for that was the punishment for being caught in the act.
    Yet there didn't seem to be any punishment for a husband who slept with a prostitute. The culture certainly seems to be male dominated.
    These rules were the basis of the Jewish nation. Do they still behave like this or have they moved on?

    Where did you get this from?
    A psychosomatic response is not exactly something that can be controlled without therapy.
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    By its very nature, it cannot be controlled. A psychosomatic response is how the brain often reacts to stress or illness. The physical symptoms are real and can manifest itself in many ways. To say that the woman can simply drink the bitter waters or go through the trial and if she has done nothing wrong, then she will not respond is misleading. The stress alone and fear can be enough to result in symptoms that are outside of her control. Keep in mind, these women would have been facing death by stoning if they show a single form of illness.

    Have you never been so stressed or distressed that you had a headache? Or felt ill? Now imagine if someone accuses you in public of having an affair, when the penalty for this supposed crime is to be stoned to death and imagine if the people you believe are connected to God are demanding you drink highly contaminated water and tell you that if you get sick, they will kill you.. See how well you would take it.

    What I noticed there was no trial for a husband who was thought by his wife to be sleeping around! That would have made it a tad fairer, one trial for the unfaithful wife and another for the unfaithful husband.
    This trial was just to relieve jealousy. The woman would not be stoned to death, for that was the punishment for being caught in the act.
    Yet there didn't seem to be any punishment for a husband who slept with a prostitute. The culture certainly seems to be male dominated.
    These rules were the basis of the Jewish nation. Do they still behave like this or have they moved on?
    Women who failed the so called trial were stoned to death.

    If you look back through history, a lot of these trials and ordeals were targeted at women in regards to adultery, witchcraft in particular. As was often the case with patriarchal societies. Women had no rights unless it was given to them by the men in their lives and their communities.

    It was not a jealousy ordeal. But one that was to reaffirm to the woman that she was owned and controlled by her husband and her religious leaders. It was a test for adultery by the woman, the wife or wife to be. The husband was not required to provide any proof of adultery. He could simply take her to the Temple, offer a sacrifice to have the temple priest loosen her hair and sometimes remove her clothing to expose her breasts and she would then be faced with drinking the contaminated water or face being stoned to death..
    Last edited by Tranquille; May 21st, 2014 at 04:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    By its very nature, it cannot be controlled. A psychosomatic response is how the brain often reacts to stress or illness. The physical symptoms are real and can manifest itself in many ways. To say that the woman can simply drink the bitter waters or go through the trial and if she has done nothing wrong, then she will not respond is misleading. The stress alone and fear can be enough to result in symptoms that are outside of her control. Keep in mind, these women would have been facing death by stoning if they show a single form of illness.

    Have you never been so stressed or distressed that you had a headache? Or felt ill? Now imagine if someone accuses you in public of having an affair, when the penalty for this supposed crime is to be stoned to death and imagine if the people you believe are connected to God are demanding you drink highly contaminated water and tell you that if you get sick, they will kill you.. See how well you would take it.

    What I noticed there was no trial for a husband who was thought by his wife to be sleeping around! That would have made it a tad fairer, one trial for the unfaithful wife and another for the unfaithful husband.
    This trial was just to relieve jealousy. The woman would not be stoned to death, for that was the punishment for being caught in the act.
    Yet there didn't seem to be any punishment for a husband who slept with a prostitute. The culture certainly seems to be male dominated.
    These rules were the basis of the Jewish nation. Do they still behave like this or have they moved on?
    Women who failed the so called trial were stoned to death.

    If you look back through history, a lot of these trials and ordeals were targeted at women in regards to adultery, witchcraft in particular. As was often the case with patriarchal societies. Women had no rights unless it was given to them by the men in their lives and their communities.

    It was not a jealousy ordeal. But one that was to reaffirm to the woman that she was owned and controlled by her husband and her religious leaders. It was a test for adultery by the woman, the wife or wife to be. The husband was not required to provide any proof of adultery. He could simply take her to the Temple, offer a sacrifice to have the temple priest loosen her hair and sometimes remove her clothing to expose her breasts and she would then be faced with drinking the contaminated water or face being stoned to death..
    I have had to re-read that passage from the Old Testament and I'd have to say you are still wrong. There was no harm if there was no sin, in fact the jealous husband had to get over it. But if the trial showed through the psychosomatic reaction that she was guilty she "would be a curse among her people" but she didn't get stoned (I suppose that is like becoming divorced, but there is no mention of stoning, when it was just based on suspicion).

    I also went back through the wikipedia on the topic and it said the curse wouldn't not work if he had played around himself. Not only that but the man that slept with the adulterous woman would also die. No wonder it wasn't used that often, it wouldn't have worked in most cases.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 21st, 2014 at 05:32 AM.
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    A husband gets a bit jealous of his wife and thinks of taking her to the High Priest to apply the curse. But he knows he's played around too and he suspects his best golfing buddy. If he goes through with it the only person that will die is his buddy.
    He gives it a miss.
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    If you are a theist, pick a religion, but do not participate in such things as worshipping at church, praying, asking for forgiveness, etc. then is it a curse to think that you will get punished by god for behaving in this manner? I mean if you commit a sin, then are you cursed by God? I would tend to think that by knowing you have been a bad boy or girl, upsetting your god's laws or plans, one will always carry the thought that punishment awaits at some point, live or dead. There may be a problem in that one may never understand why a god would be upset with them but what are the chances that if you are knowingly sinning that you won't attribute all the bad things that happen to you as an act of divine retribution?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If you are a theist, pick a religion, but do not participate in such things as worshipping at church, praying, asking for forgiveness, etc. then is it a curse to think that you will get punished by god for behaving in this manner? I mean if you commit a sin, then are you cursed by God? I would tend to think that by knowing you have been a bad boy or girl, upsetting your god's laws or plans, one will always carry the thought that punishment awaits at some point, live or dead. There may be a problem in that one may never understand why a god would be upset with them but what are the chances that if you are knowingly sinning that you won't attribute all the bad things that happen to you as an act of divine retribution?
    You should be directing a question like that to the Pope. No one around here would be qualified to answer that question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You should be directing a question like that to the Pope. No one around here would be qualified to answer that question.
    Why drag is further away from science now?

    Zin's question seemed more about personal interpretations based on what that person might think are "sins" etc, not about the actual effects of a curse. Any random psychologist would be a better answer than The Pope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You should be directing a question like that to the Pope. No one around here would be qualified to answer that question.
    Why drag is further away from science now?

    Zin's question seemed more about personal interpretations based on what that person might think are "sins" etc, not about the actual effects of a curse. Any random psychologist would be a better answer than The Pope.
    Well I didn't feel capable of answering the question. Have we got a psychologist on the forum?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If you are a theist, pick a religion, but do not participate in such things as worshipping at church, praying, asking for forgiveness, etc. then is it a curse to think that you will get punished by god for behaving in this manner? I mean if you commit a sin, then are you cursed by God? I would tend to think that by knowing you have been a bad boy or girl, upsetting your god's laws or plans, one will always carry the thought that punishment awaits at some point, live or dead. There may be a problem in that one may never understand why a god would be upset with them but what are the chances that if you are knowingly sinning that you won't attribute all the bad things that happen to you as an act of divine retribution?
    You should be directing a question like that to the Pope. No one around here would be qualified to answer that question.
    Zin's question seemed more about personal interpretations based on what that person might think are "sins" etc, not about the actual effects of a curse. Any random psychologist would be a better answer than The Pope.
    Perhaps if the Pope had phrased the OP question then I would have.

    As I pause to reflect on the wages of sin, I can't help but think that a theistic religion is a curse in itself. My little dictionary defines a curse as: a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something. Isn't this precisely what god belief gets you? God has more than once, if one was to believe the written word, inflicted his measure of disdain on an unsuspecting world as punishment. To believe in God means that you have to believe He will act in a harmful manner if one does not believe. So when you preach to people re God belief then you are saying a divine supernatural entity could bring about harm if not followed. In essence, proselytizing places a curse on anyone who cares not to listen.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If you are a theist, pick a religion, but do not participate in such things as worshipping at church, praying, asking for forgiveness, etc. then is it a curse to think that you will get punished by god for behaving in this manner? I mean if you commit a sin, then are you cursed by God? I would tend to think that by knowing you have been a bad boy or girl, upsetting your god's laws or plans, one will always carry the thought that punishment awaits at some point, live or dead. There may be a problem in that one may never understand why a god would be upset with them but what are the chances that if you are knowingly sinning that you won't attribute all the bad things that happen to you as an act of divine retribution?
    You should be directing a question like that to the Pope. No one around here would be qualified to answer that question.
    Zin's question seemed more about personal interpretations based on what that person might think are "sins" etc, not about the actual effects of a curse. Any random psychologist would be a better answer than The Pope.
    Perhaps if the Pope had phrased the OP question then I would have.

    As I pause to reflect on the wages of sin, I can't help but think that a theistic religion is a curse in itself. My little dictionary defines a curse as: a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something. Isn't this precisely what god belief gets you? God has more than once, if one was to believe the written word, inflicted his measure of disdain on an unsuspecting world as punishment. To believe in God means that you have to believe He will act in a harmful manner if one does not believe. So when you preach to people re God belief then you are saying a divine supernatural entity could bring about harm if not followed. In essence, proselytizing places a curse on anyone who cares not to listen.
    So you were ambiguous there for you start off saying believers are cursed and finish by saying unbelievers are cursed. So do we all get cursed? Do I feel cursed? No I feel blessed but it is no bed of roses either. One man's curse is another man's blessing, so to speak, if that is even possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So you were ambiguous there for you start off saying believers are cursed and finish by saying unbelievers are cursed. So do we all get cursed? Do I feel cursed? No I feel blessed but it is no bed of roses either. One man's curse is another man's blessing, so to speak, if that is even possible.
    Not quite, I'm asking if unbelievers are cursed by the god of the believer. It seems to me that the simple act of preaching, more or less gives credence to a divine curse put on whoever doesn't listen. You being the good Christian man you are, feel blessed because you are able to avoid the curse of the theistic god. However in the eyes of the other believers (different gods) you are cursed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So you were ambiguous there for you start off saying believers are cursed and finish by saying unbelievers are cursed. So do we all get cursed? Do I feel cursed? No I feel blessed but it is no bed of roses either. One man's curse is another man's blessing, so to speak, if that is even possible.
    Not quite, I'm asking if unbelievers are cursed by the god of the believer. It seems to me that the simple act of preaching, more or less gives credence to a divine curse put on whoever doesn't listen. You being the good Christian man you are, feel blessed because you are able to avoid the curse of the theistic god. However in the eyes of the other believers (different gods) you are cursed.
    It was on the news last week where a Muslim lady converted to Christianity and under the law of that land she has now to be killed. Since she is currently pregnant they will wait till the baby is born before they enact the death sentence.

    Now there is a bit of blessing and cursing in that story don't you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So you were ambiguous there for you start off saying believers are cursed and finish by saying unbelievers are cursed. So do we all get cursed? Do I feel cursed? No I feel blessed but it is no bed of roses either. One man's curse is another man's blessing, so to speak, if that is even possible.
    Not quite, I'm asking if unbelievers are cursed by the god of the believer. It seems to me that the simple act of preaching, more or less gives credence to a divine curse put on whoever doesn't listen. You being the good Christian man you are, feel blessed because you are able to avoid the curse of the theistic god. However in the eyes of the other believers (different gods) you are cursed.
    It was on the news last week where a Muslim lady converted to Christianity and under the law of that land she has now to be killed. Since she is currently pregnant they will wait till the baby is born before they enact the death sentence.

    Now there is a bit of blessing and cursing in that story don't you think?
    At least she isn't cursed by your god anymore.

    Edit: when you think about it, the poor woman was cursed by both gods. The curse of one taking effect for leaving Islam and the curse of the Christian god enacted because she wasn't a Christian. I know she is a Christian now but it appears that converting doesn't get you pardoned. The curse of a god is awfully hard to have annulled.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; May 24th, 2014 at 09:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    At least she isn't cursed by your god anymore.

    Edit: when you think about it, the poor woman was cursed by both gods. The curse of one taking effect for leaving Islam and the curse of the Christian god enacted because she wasn't a Christian. I know she is a Christian now but it appears that converting doesn't get you pardoned. The curse of a god is awfully hard to have annulled.
    You both do realize that islam and christianity are abrahamic religions, and that the creator-type deity that both religions worship is one and the same right?
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    This woman you speak of is not cursed at all. She is the victim of Fundamentalist Extremists.. PEOPLE.
    That to utter such encumbrances while in the country where such extremism are not out of the ordinary a 'what did you expect ?' comes bounding along... All of which is a sad indictment of humanities stupidity regarding matters of religious indoctrinations..
    Fortunately some of us have risen above this sort of spiritual punishments for daring to be something other than controlled. I would not give the subject a space to be read in.. Yes the view of the modern man has changed considerably from that of those closed minded religiously driven control freaks.. I blame the UN for not stopping this sort of thing.. point blank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    This woman you speak of is not cursed at all. She is the victim of Fundamentalist Extremists.. PEOPLE.
    That to utter such encumbrances while in the country where such extremism are not out of the ordinary a 'what did you expect ?' comes bounding along... All of which is a sad indictment of humanities stupidity regarding matters of religious indoctrinations..
    Fortunately some of us have risen above this sort of spiritual punishments for daring to be something other than controlled. I would not give the subject a space to be read in.. Yes the view of the modern man has changed considerably from that of those closed minded religiously driven control freaks.. I blame the UN for not stopping this sort of thing.. point blank.
    Well what would the UN do?

    China would do nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    At least she isn't cursed by your god anymore.

    Edit: when you think about it, the poor woman was cursed by both gods. The curse of one taking effect for leaving Islam and the curse of the Christian god enacted because she wasn't a Christian. I know she is a Christian now but it appears that converting doesn't get you pardoned. The curse of a god is awfully hard to have annulled.
    You both do realize that islam and christianity are abrahamic religions, and that the creator-type deity that both religions worship is one and the same right?
    Many times I have asked that question here. Either I never get a straight answer, or an answer at all. My take has always been this: all monotheists believe in the same god. My quoted post is somewhat a parody, I'm lampooning the situation. All I try to illustrate is the insanity of it all.

    This woman you speak of is not cursed at all. She is the victim of Fundamentalist Extremists.. PEOPLE.
    Exactly, there are no true gods involved. However there are those who believe that people are god's instruments, to do His bidding, no matter what the human cost. As long as people believe in a god who has cursed them or if you wish, promises punishment for stepping out of bounds, then fundamentalists will believe they are that instrument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    My take has always been this: all monotheists believe in the same god.
    Unlikely, since the different genres depict them (singular deity) quite differently, and some while sharing similarities have emerged at different times throughout history and sometimes without borrowed stories. Besides, monotheism isn't restricted to the abrahamic religions alone. Just a tidbit, were you aware that the ancient Chinese culture held a concept similar to monotheism as well, and it has been deeply embedded into many different philosophical traditions and genres within our culture?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    My take has always been this: all monotheists believe in the same god.
    Unlikely, since the different genres depict them (singular deity) quite differently, and some while sharing similarities have emerged at different times throughout history and sometimes without borrowed stories. Besides, monotheism isn't restricted to the abrahamic religions alone. Just a tidbit, were you aware that the ancient Chinese culture held a concept similar to monotheism as well, and it has been deeply embedded into many different philosophical traditions and genres within our culture?
    When I say monotheism I'm not singling out any of the Abrahamic religions. If some jungle tribe worships one god then their god is one and the same with any monotheistic religion. My slant is this, if there is one god for everybody, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter. It's still one god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    It's still one god.
    There are fundamental problems with "all monotheists believe in the same god" and that of the above quote.

    One being that the monotheistic concept suggests that if creator-type deities exists, there is only one such entity; which is equivalent to "It's still one god". This falls within the realm of what makes monotheism - monotheistic.

    The other being that each monotheistic genre holds their preferred deity to be the only that exists, in effect; deals in the identity of the deity of preference. There's nothing to build upon to suggests that the deity (singular) worshiped by each of the different monotheistic genre being one and the same. It could very well be that other accounts of monotheistic genre to be false, and only one out of all of them being true, or that they are all false (being that even if a singular creator-type deity exists, it may not have been correctly identified and worshiped by any of the monotheistic genres both past and present).

    If the monotheistic concept is reliably accurate, each of the different monotheistic genres are in fact competing factions with each of their preferred deity of choice not necessarily being one and the same. That is even neglecting to factor in theistic concepts of deities in the plural sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    It's still one god.
    There are fundamental problems with "all monotheists believe in the same god" and that of the above quote.

    One being that the monotheistic concept suggests that if creator-type deities exists, there is only one such entity; which is equivalent to "It's still one god". This falls within the realm of what makes monotheism - monotheistic.

    The other being that each monotheistic genre holds their preferred deity to be the only that exists, in effect; deals in the identity of the deity of preference. There's nothing to build upon to suggests that the deity (singular) worshiped by each of the different monotheistic genre being one and the same. It could very well be that other accounts of monotheistic genre to be false, and only one out of all of them being true, or that they are all false (being that even if a singular creator-type deity exists, it may not have been correctly identified and worshiped by any of the monotheistic genres both past and present).

    If the monotheistic concept is reliably accurate, each of the different monotheistic genres are in fact competing factions with each of their preferred deity of choice not necessarily being one and the same. That is even neglecting to factor in theistic concepts of deities in the plural sense.
    Thus my reply in Post #37 plus any others along the same point.

    If the monotheists can't agree on a one and only then what choice has anyone when responding to their queries? They are for the most part adamant that their god is different than the other guy's. It sounds insane but that appears to be an accepted notion. I can't say to a Christian that Allah is this or that, it just doesn't wash.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  47. #46  
    ox
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    Monotheism is for people who don't like competition.
    The idea of Heaven is for people who are afraid of the dark.
    The idea of Hell is for people who are afraid they're not going to Heaven.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    This woman you speak of is not cursed at all. She is the victim of Fundamentalist Extremists.. PEOPLE.
    That to utter such encumbrances while in the country where such extremism are not out of the ordinary a 'what did you expect ?' comes bounding along... All of which is a sad indictment of humanities stupidity regarding matters of religious indoctrinations..
    Fortunately some of us have risen above this sort of spiritual punishments for daring to be something other than controlled. I would not give the subject a space to be read in.. Yes the view of the modern man has changed considerably from that of those closed minded religiously driven control freaks.. I blame the UN for not stopping this sort of thing.. point blank.
    Well what would the UN do?

    China would do nothing.
    Not what they should do.. Infringements against basic human rights is the crime against humanities freedoms. I would suggest crimes against humanity are the job description of the UN. For the greater good of the community. Many nations ignore the directives.. What would you suggest ?
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