Notices
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: what's happening to the Muslim faith?

  1. #1 what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    For centuries, we in the West lived in relative peace with Islam. They began to adopt our secular view of the world and their schools to become more like ours.

    Now, our religious sites are filled with resentment against Islam and it is commonly regarded as an oppresive, belligerant faith.

    Has it really changed? Have its believers changed? And if there has been change, what caused it?

    Seems to me CAUSATION is what we in the SCIENCE forum should be seeking. If so, what IS the causation involved?


    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com


    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    id say that we continued to evolve and got more advanced and developed more human right friendly ways while they mostly stood on the same spot.
    thats my guess atleast


    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    For centuries, we in the West lived in relative peace with Islam. They began to adopt our secular view of the world and their schools to become more like ours.
    But who is 'they'? I think it was mostly the elite of certain Muslim countries which enthousiastically supported western-style government and education, and a secular worldview. Was it really the Islamic world or even Islam itself which was becoming more 'modern' (as we interpret this term), or only a small elite which may even partly have been put in place by western powers?

    But besides this I think the tensions we now see between Islamic countries and groups and 'the west' are based on differences which have existed for a long time, but just didn't come to the surface before. There has never been as much interaction between Islamic countries and Western countries as there is today, so the existing differences will lead to more conflicts than in the past (or the size of these conflicts simply grows).

    For example, a century ago the average Muslim probably had no idea that in the West prostitution was acceptable and that their faith could be mocked freely. Just as the average westerner had no idea that in several Islamic countries marriage breakers were stoned to death, or that female circumcision took place. They didn't know they had such fundamental things to disagree on, and therefore had no grounds for conflict. Nowadays people from both groups are confronted daily with their differences, and they're more able than ever to turn such differences into violence.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    PNEDRAGON:

    """I think the tensions we now see between Islamic countries and groups and 'the west' are based on differences which have existed for a long time, but just didn't come to the surface before. There has never been as much interaction between Islamic countries and Western countries as there is today, so the existing differences will lead to more conflicts than in the past (or the size of these conflicts simply grows)."""

    EXACTLY! Before we had a really secular government dedicated to smoothing over the world's old religious hostitlies through its focus on our secular ideals. Now we have a government that only gives lip service to them but has a hidden religious agenda in which it imposes our secular system in such a way as to destroy all faith in it everywhere. This achieves their hidden agenda of bringing back "the faith of our Fathers" and igniting hatred towards Islam. This serves to make Islam less secuar and more fanatical as well. There is actually "an Antagonistic Alliance" going on between the rabid-religious of the two faiths calculated to draw each into more hostility in order to make more of the people feel forced to take sides at the expense of our secular system. We learned this from the Jewish-Muslim retaliatory system.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com (430 hits PER DAY in January!)
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Junior Bettina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    268
    I'm with Zelos. Look at Afghanistan, where kite flying, music, books, cars, ....well just about everything was banned before we threw out the Taliban. They shun modern lifestyles, beat their women, and want to see the world change back to the stone age.

    Those are the worst and I admit it does not apply to all..... but certainly a lot and spreading.

    Bee
    Emotionally based life form. The Fword will get you on my ignore list.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6 Ya 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    id say that we continued to evolve and got more advanced and developed more human right friendly ways while they mostly stood on the same spot.
    thats my guess atleast
    Ya I think there is a point here. We have to move with the world, we are now in the 21st century.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 Re: what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Freshman pseudoscientist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    For centuries, we in the West lived in relative peace with Islam. They began to adopt our secular view of the world and their schools to become more like ours.

    Now, our religious sites are filled with resentment against Islam and it is commonly regarded as an oppresive, belligerant faith.

    Has it really changed? Have its believers changed? And if there has been change, what caused it?

    Seems to me CAUSATION is what we in the SCIENCE forum should be seeking. If so, what IS the causation involved?
    We lived in "relative peace" with Islam (or you meant Muslims maybe?) mainly because of indifference. We had no knowledge whatsoever about Muslims; we did our business, they did theirs. Then 9/11 struck and boom--Islam suddenly became a violent religion due to the action of a minority.

    This is a science forum and I'm going to assume that not many people here are Christians. However, I'd like to point out that Islam and Christianity are not that different as far as changes are concerned, although the latter is more familiar to the western world. So to put things in perspective you might as well ask: Has Christianity really changed? Have its believers changed? Is it an oppressive, belligerent faith?

    My personal answer would be yes, because changes are inevitable. As for the cause, it seems straightforward enough. How about the rise of technology and globalization?

    It would also be nice if we all could respect different cultures. Please please please do not ever have a superiority complex because we have a different view of life. I'm not sure what the fadoodle the Taliban was all about (I have to do some research before I say something about that), but just because they shun modern lifestyles doesn't mean they're worse off than we are. Westerners are hedonistic; we tend to choose the easiest way possible to get through life. That is not something admirable either.
    "Let's all be friends!" -- Barney (the dinosaur)
    http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...coexistkf4.jpg

    I'm ashamed of your public display of ignorance.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8 Re: what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoscientist
    We lived in "relative peace" with Islam (or you meant Muslims maybe?) mainly because of indifference. We had no knowledge whatsoever about Muslims; we did our business, they did theirs. Then 9/11 struck and boom--Islam suddenly became a violent religion due to the action of a minority.
    You say it is a Minority, how come that you see muslims swearing, CARRYING DEATH PLACARDS, and saying that they hate it here in the west and they feel opressed, well in my opinion they have the choice to go back to their own country but they would rather try and change ours.
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Guest
    The advent of the Mass media, phones, the internet, and films - have all contributed to showing Muslims how we live, since they are mostly passionate - I mean really passionate - in their beliefs they see our way of life as alien, in return we see the reaction to this, - it is the inevitable consequence of being able to see how others live and behave - you need only look to history to see that empires have always been challenged from within by individuals - they were simply not called terrorists though, before terrorsists we had 'guerila warfare' and before that 'in the days of the raj 'insurgents' - what you see today is nothing different - merely mass transport and 'freedom of movement' allows individuals to attack the target of their hatred/mistrust/oppression/bias, or whatever.

    I do not blame the media - I merely state it a window to another world - where people have different values customs, laws, prejudices and all other traits.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10 Re: what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Freshman pseudoscientist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    You say it is a Minority, how come that you see muslims swearing, CARRYING DEATH PLACARDS, and saying that they hate it here in the west and they feel opressed, well in my opinion they have the choice to go back to their own country but they would rather try and change ours.
    Okay. I have never personally seen any Muslim carrying death placards--not in this country I haven't. Where do you live? Does it happen on a regular basis? If it does, please PM me your exact location so I can see it with my own eyes. Still, unless it happens in most places of this country, you can't reject the fact that they're a Minority.

    As for swearing, what bullshit. I'm a Christian and I swear. So what? But thank you for providing an excellent opportunity to explain why we shouldn't judge a religion based on the behavior displayed by some of its believers. Let's pretend for a second that you're a Christian and my swearing makes you think I'm not a Christian at all. That won't stop me from going around claiming that I'm a Christian, and now everyone who has met me will think that ALL Christians swear. That despite the fact that you and ten other Christians don't swear. Will that make you happy? Probably not.

    And guess what? Most of us are inclined to notice the negative rather than the positive. On the one hand, thank God because that means positivity (which may or may not be a word) is still the norm. On the other hand, humanity sucks because negativity seems to be the norm.

    But my biggest problem with your comment is the implication that all Muslims are immigrants to this country (I'm assuming the U.S.). Has it ever occurred to you that some Muslims were indeed born here and are as American as you are? Your telling them to go home to their country makes you sound like a bigot--which I'm sure you're not. What right do you have telling them to go back to "their" country? Is the U.S. not a free country for people of different backgrounds and different beliefs? Or maybe you're just intolerant of the Muslims because they all have darker skin color and stuff (because white men can't possibly be Muslim, of course)?

    And why only Muslims? In case you haven't noticed, we have so many protests and attempts to revolutionize this country going on. Off the top of my head, for example, there are gay rights activists. Let's still assume that you're a Christian and a homophobic one at that. Would you now think that, because those gay people feel oh-so oppressed that they really shouldn't because they have a choice to move out of this country? No? Then why would you say such thing to Muslims?

    Quit fearing things because they are unfamiliar to you. This is the 21st-century; open your mind and hold off your judgment, please!
    "Let's all be friends!" -- Barney (the dinosaur)
    http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...coexistkf4.jpg

    I'm ashamed of your public display of ignorance.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    881
    In britain, muslims have carried death placards (see links below), if any other person did it, they would have been arrested for incitement to murder, why should they get special treatment.

    You yourself said that you are a christian, how do you feel about them carrying cards saying 'Kill the pope'? have you ever called for the death of an islamic leader?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

    As seen in the links below they were calling for capital punishment just to harm those that insulted islam, why should we change to follow the laws of their country?

    I am not a christian, i am a budhist and a believe in free will, so we have not tampered or called for the deaths of others for small reasons, and why should they try and impose their dress code on us, they want all women to where their veil.

    "American as you are?", I am not American and there were very few muslims in britain before the 1940's, , I have no quarrel with muslims that are as british as i am, they are not the ones trying to change this country to fit there own ideas. I don't like your implication about me being a racist, after all, i have dark skin, i have ancestors that come from the mediteranian region (going way back here).

    "Would you now think that, because those gay people feel oh-so oppressed that they really shouldn't because they have a choice to move out of this country? No? Then why would you say such thing to Muslims?", i have never seen a homosexual carrying a death placard saying 'death to the hetersexuals', have you?

    I don't fear them, i have plenty of muslim friends

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4682262.stm
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...lim/article.do
    http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/eu...toon.protests/
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South Downs.
    Posts
    934
    pseudoscientist, i don't think a gay rights activist is a good example. I don't see gay rights activists resorting to terrorism to get their point across.

    Has it ever occurred to you that some Muslims were indeed born here and are as American as you are?
    No, muslims hold their faith above their nationality, many move back to the country of their parents and grand parents which are muslim countries. Also many hold their religious law above the law in the country they live in.

    It would also be nice if we all could respect different cultures.
    Yes it would be nice, and i think many of us do, but the 11th of september 2001 finished that. We are having the religion of islam shoved down our throats in our own country, that is not respecting different cultures, it's only natural for us to lash out.

    Or maybe you're just intolerant of the Muslims because they all have darker skin color and stuff (because white men can't possibly be Muslim, of course)?
    Please don't make this a race issue, it is not, it's cultural differences. I personally have no problem with the muslim culture, just so long as it's not being forced onto me in my own country, when this happens (As it is) i have every right to question the morals and the social beliefs of their religion just as i would to a nazi or a racist.

    My own view of the situation is that islam see's it's self as an under-dog and gives purpose to many young muslims to fight the hole world as they think everyone is against them. Also i believe that islam is being protected in the west by middle class political correctness and a fear of upsetting them. I know that this is a completely different situation but Neville Chamberlain made the mistake of doing anything to avoid war, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Freshman pseudoscientist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    41
    Either I didn't express myself clearly enough, or some people just conveniently ignored parts of my post... but anyway.

    Nevyn, since you're in Britain, I won't add anything for now. I don't know how things work there and I don't want to be making things up and spouting things off. But:

    I don't fear them, i have plenty of muslim friends
    Having a Muslim friend is not a proof that you don't "fear" Muslims. Plenty of homophobic Christians like to say that they have homosexual friends, just like plenty of racist white men like to say they have black friends.

    And also:

    You yourself said that you are a christian, how do you feel about them carrying cards saying 'Kill the pope'?
    The problem here is that I don't even think of them as Muslims; I think of them as idiots. A big difference there.

    I also want to point out that only Catholics care about the pope. Other Christians--namely the Protestants--wouldn't mind at all because they see the pope as teh Antichrist.

    pseudoscientist, i don't think a gay rights activist is a good example. I don't see gay rights activists resorting to terrorism to get their point across.
    I'm not sure what "terrorism" really means in this context, but assuming one definition over the other, ask a conservative Christian and see if he/he doesn't think the gay rights movement is not a terrorism of a sort.

    No, muslims hold their faith above their nationality, many move back to the country of their parents and grand parents which are muslim countries. Also many hold their religious law above the law in the country they live in.
    That doesn't change the fact that they are, by law, still American.

    Yes it would be nice, and i think many of us do, but the 11th of september 2001 finished that. We are having the religion of islam shoved down our throats in our own country, that is not respecting different cultures, it's only natural for us to lash out.
    You mean like it's only natural for Christians to lash out when gay rights activists overdo it with their movement.

    Please don't make this a race issue, it is not, it's cultural differences. I personally have no problem with the muslim culture, just so long as it's not being forced onto me in my own country, when this happens (As it is) i have every right to question the morals and the social beliefs of their religion just as i would to a nazi or a racist.
    It is both a race issue and cultural differences. No one is forcing the Muslim culture onto this country. Then again, I'm in the U.S. and I don't know how things work in Britain. If we continue this discussion, I'm afraid we would never be on the same page since we have different perspectives to begin with.
    "Let's all be friends!" -- Barney (the dinosaur)
    http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...coexistkf4.jpg

    I'm ashamed of your public display of ignorance.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Guest
    There is a very thin line between mentioning race and appearing as 'racially prejudiced' this has not been crossed in my opinion, however, I would ask that you all consider carefully what you put in your post 'race' [if such a thing exists] has nothing to do with religion - there are groups of muslims throughout the world [africa and the far east for example]. The great majority of these people live in peace with their neighbours - clearly not all muslims subscribe to terrorism or extremism.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Freshman pseudoscientist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    41
    Yes, Mega, race exists. Being of one race instead of the other doesn't make that much difference, but race does exist. Race is not directly correlated to religion, and mentioning it alone doesn't make one a racist. However, problems rise when we behave differently--either consciously or otherwise--towards a person on account of his/her race. Muslims are stereotyped to be "people of the color," and I think this contributes to the irrational yet immense hatred towards Islam (hence the command "go back to your country [even though you were born here]!").
    "Let's all be friends!" -- Barney (the dinosaur)
    http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...coexistkf4.jpg

    I'm ashamed of your public display of ignorance.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16 Re: what's happening to the Muslim faith? 
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoscientist
    Quote Originally Posted by charles brough
    For centuries, we in the West lived in relative peace with Islam. They began to adopt our secular view of the world and their schools to become more like ours.

    Now, our religious sites are filled with resentment against Islam and it is commonly regarded as an oppresive, belligerant faith.

    Has it really changed? Have its believers changed? And if there has been change, what caused it?

    Seems to me CAUSATION is what we in the SCIENCE forum should be seeking. If so, what IS the causation involved?
    We lived in "relative peace" with Islam (or you meant Muslims maybe?) mainly because of indifference. We had no knowledge whatsoever about Muslims; we did our business, they did theirs. Then 9/11 struck and boom--Islam suddenly became a violent religion due to the action of a minority.

    It would also be nice if we all could respect different cultures. Please please please do not ever have a superiority complex because we have a different view of life. I'm not sure what the fadoodle the Taliban was all about (I have to do some research before I say something about that), but just because they shun modern lifestyles doesn't mean they're worse off than we are. Westerners are hedonistic; we tend to choose the easiest way possible to get through life. That is not something admirable either.
    I agree totally. . . All should note that Afghanistan is now a poppy growing narco nation run mostly by war lords with the Taliban recovering in strength. Our culture is weakening because of our hedonism, our obsession with "shopping" and the accumulating of "stuff." We in the West should not judge other people so harshly.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoscientist
    Muslims are stereotyped to be "people of the color," and I think this contributes to the irrational yet immense hatred towards Islam (hence the command "go back to your country [even though you were born here]!").
    I don't think i like your 'spin' on my words, i never EVER commanded them to go back to their own country i said they had the CHOICE, so please, don't attack attack me if you are going to LIE about my own words.

    Again you are calling me a racist, i am appalled at your sense of respect and find this very hypocritical considering what you are fighting me over. I myself have brown skin, so i am an intermediate, to be honest, i think you are a racial appeaser, you want equality for everyone, and in this sense, are a communist, Well wake up and smell the roses, everything was fine before hand. In britain the number of chinese people is almost the same as the number of muslims, yet i have never seen them cause a fuss, I have never seen a chinese sucide bomber, i never seen a chinese protester carrying death placards, I barely notice the difference between them and me because they blend into british sociaty.

    Your turn, and please don't imply that i'm a racist again
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    881
    hah, and i just found this in the 'da vinci broken' topic

    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    "The Last Day will not come until ISLAM has entered into every home on earth."
    This is what we have a problem with, muslims wish to force their religion upon us, in Britain we exercize the right of freedom of speech and are therefore alowed to worship in what ever way we please, but they don't seem to like it
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •