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  1. #101  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Show me a conclusive truth either way.
    With regard to what?
    You're jumping all over the place.
    You do know that science doesn't do "truth" btw?

    If you are accused of commiting a crime you would expect to see proof, wouldnt you?
    Science != law.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    My main aim, is to try and make sense of why people make the decisions and choices they do and why things are written.
    That was the most interesting thing about the short religious studies course I did (I would have gone further but it started getting more about religion and less about history/sociology).
    Some discount God and therefore assume that it is ok to discount or throw the bible to the garbage.
    There has been a lot of work on the bible from a non-religious point of view: literary analysis (e.g. to understand how many authors there were - more than One, surprisingly), historical (e.g. which bits are useful sources for historical events, corroborated by other sources or archaeology), myth (e.g. what sort of stories do different cultures tell), moral (what lessons can we learn from it).Also, some eminent theologians of the Bible have been non-Christian or even atheists. So your claim that the Bible is rejected for PC or similar reasons appear to be false.(Although I wasn't brought up in a particularly religious environment - quite the opposite - I read the Old Testament as a child [there are some good bits but The Lord of the Rings is probably better; I skipped all the endless "... who begat ... who begat ... who begat ..." lists)]. I was surprised when I said to a religious friend, "you know those two different accounts of Genesis ..." and they had no idea what I was talking about.)
    People have lost employment for views on homosexuality. I think it is only fair that we at least have some kind of reasoned debate (if not empirical evidence) to be able to say they are wrong. Don't you think?
    Eh? What has this to do with what Strange was talking about, or the subject of this thread? In any case, a moral discussion - moreover one with a prejudged outcome - is not the sort of thing we do in science. A little discipline, maybe
    It has a lot to do with the issue. I'm astonished at the lack of thinking outside of the box. When we have situations where arguments occur for biological make up then surely the best people to assess it would involve some kind of science?
    What issue? The Flood is supposed to be the issue here. Hannah, you simply have to learn the difference between "thinking outside the box" and jumping randomly from subject to subject. In a debate, you need to stick to the point, or if you introduce a new one, show there is relevant link between it and the original one.

    I'm sure you are right that some people make arguments calling on biology, when in fact biology does not support their contention. In fact there have been plenty of notorious examples (Aryan supremacy being one). But this thread is not remotely about that: it is supposed is be about the Flood myth. If you jump wildly from subject to subject you will, again, annoy people and the Mods will close you down. This is not being narrow-minded or something: it is just to preserve the basic rules of reasoned argument.

    In this case you already have a thread open on the males G spot, which has turned out to be a Trojan Horse for a prejudged position of yours on the morality of homosexuality. So make this argument there if anywhere.

    And please don't express sanctimonious horror at my supposed narrow-mindedness, which is simply trying to prevent this thread from degenerating. There is some good stuff in it higher up and it would be a shame if the Mods chuck it into Trash due to incontinent rambling.
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  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    It has a lot to do with the issue. I'm astonished at the lack of thinking outside of the box. When we have situations where arguments occur for biological make up then surely the best people to assess it would involve some kind of science?
    If the best solution is "some kind of science" why mention it in a discussion of the flood or the bible? What next, the best battery technology for electric vehicles?
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  4. #104  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    show me a conclusive truth either way.
    Regarding what? The flood? Adam's rib? The existence of Jesus?

    If you are accused of commiting a crime you would expect to see proof, wouldnt you?
    What crime do you think you are accused of? I'm afraid I can't follow your argument at all.
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  5. #105  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    My main aim, is to try and make sense of why people make the decisions and choices they do and why things are written.
    That was the most interesting thing about the short religious studies course I did (I would have gone further but it started getting more about religion and less about history/sociology).
    Some discount God and therefore assume that it is ok to discount or throw the bible to the garbage.
    There has been a lot of work on the bible from a non-religious point of view: literary analysis (e.g. to understand how many authors there were - more than One, surprisingly), historical (e.g. which bits are useful sources for historical events, corroborated by other sources or archaeology), myth (e.g. what sort of stories do different cultures tell), moral (what lessons can we learn from it).Also, some eminent theologians of the Bible have been non-Christian or even atheists. So your claim that the Bible is rejected for PC or similar reasons appear to be false.(Although I wasn't brought up in a particularly religious environment - quite the opposite - I read the Old Testament as a child [there are some good bits but The Lord of the Rings is probably better; I skipped all the endless "... who begat ... who begat ... who begat ..." lists)]. I was surprised when I said to a religious friend, "you know those two different accounts of Genesis ..." and they had no idea what I was talking about.)
    People have lost employment for views on homosexuality. I think it is only fair that we at least have some kind of reasoned debate (if not empirical evidence) to be able to say they are wrong. Don't you think?
    Eh? What has this to do with what Strange was talking about, or the subject of this thread? In any case, a moral discussion - moreover one with a prejudged outcome - is not the sort of thing we do in science. A little discipline, maybe
    It has a lot to do with the issue. I'm astonished at the lack of thinking outside of the box. When we have situations where arguments occur for biological make up then surely the best people to assess it would involve some kind of science?
    What issue? The Flood is supposed to be the issue here. Hannah, you simply have to learn the difference between "thinking outside the box" and jumping randomly from subject to subject. In a debate, you need to stick to the point, or if you introduce a new one, show there is relevant link between it and the original one.I'm sure you are right that some people make arguments calling on biology, when in fact biology does not support their contention. In fact there have been plenty of notorious examples (Aryan supremacy being one). But this thread is not remotely about that: it is supposed is be about the Flood myth. If you jump wildly from subject to subject you will, again, annoy people and the Mods will close you down. This is not being narrow-minded or something: it is just to preserve the basic rules of reasoned argument.In this case you already have a thread open on the males G spot, which has turned out to be a Trojan Horse for a prejudged position of yours on the morality of homosexuality. So make this argument there if anywhere. And please don't express sanctimonious horror at my supposed narrow-mindedness, which is simply trying to prevent this thread from degenerating. There is some good stuff in it higher up and it would be a shame if the Mods chuck it into Trash due to incontinent rambling.
    Gee thanks.I can make threads as I please. Regards to links to other issues I'm surprised that some who deem themselves as scientists ( especially those who believe all things are relative, fail to apply that to real life situations).Where do all roads lead?
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  6. #106  
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    ...and that's full retard. Don't take the advice offered then, but don't complain if people treat you like a loon and your threads are trashed
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    ...and that's full retard. Don't take the advice offered then, but don't complain if people treat you like a loon and your threads are trashed
    One of the last people I will accept being called a loon from is you!
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  8. #108  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Gee thanks.I can make threads as I please. Regards to links to other issues I'm surprised that some who deem themselves as scientists ( especially those who believe all things are relative, fail to apply that to real life situations).Where do all roads lead?
    No Hannah, you can't make threads as you please. This is a community here, and belonging to it has obligations as well as rights.

    This is supposed to be forum for proper discussion and as such it has rules. These are common sense ones, that those of us who have been lucky enough to have been educated in how to make a reasoned argument adhere to almost automatically. It looks to me as if, for whatever reason, you have had the misfortune not to have been educated in this way. If my recent posts to you have a patronising tone, that is why. I am trying to help.

    Nobody forces you to take my advice, but I am very much afraid that unless you do, I can guarantee you will get a lot more rude remarks from annoyed contributors. (You can see they are starting already, after a spell in which the previous angry people have laid off you, to give you a chance). You may also find the Mods move your threads to Trash, and you may get suspended again. People's patience only extends so far.
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  9. #109  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    ...and that's full retard. Don't take the advice offered then, but don't complain if people treat you like a loon and your threads are trashed
    One of the last people I will accept being called a loon from is you!
    Again you show your lack of judgement
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  10. #110  
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    Gee thanks.I can make threads as I please.
    This is not your blog. It's a private space.

    Sure you can start threads. But moderators can move, trash or delete them if they warrant that. This is a community and the moderators maintain the standards suitable for the community - which, by the way, may be guided by members but are ultimately the choice of the owner of the site.

    Think of it as an extended dinner party in a private home. Anyone can raise a topic of conversation, everyone can participate in conversations. But anyone who speaks might be laughed at or hushed or ridiculed by the group at large or the host might ask one of the other guests to call a taxi to take the inappropriate conversationalist Out Of Here! If the hosts are offended enough they might say that this person will never be allowed in their home again. Ever!

    I'm sure you can draw the parallels with participation in forums.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  11. #111  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    ( especially those who believe all things are relative, fail to apply that to real life situations).
    Oh dear, a crank misapplication of science...
    Next you'll be using Newton's 3rd law as an excuse for name calling.

    Where do all roads lead?
    Rome?
    Away from my house?
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  12. #112  
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    The Flood fairy tale might be an adapted version of the Sumerian Flood fairy tale, which "if" "inspired" by any event would probably put it in modern day Iraq as opposed to Palestine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Do we know for fact that they were created at the same time?
    Put it this way - there were male and female animals long, long before there were any humans.

    I've heard the arguments for opposites etc but do we know with 100% accuracy that male and female came about at the same time?
    Yes. There were never asexual humans.

    That is the general belief but I belive the idea itself is certainly a reference to biological change or an attempt at trying to understand a part of human evolution. They did the best they could with little tools and understanding but there must have been genius' who (because of lack of ability to write) may have had ideas that unfortunately never seen the light of day.
    I think it's more likely that they wrote thousands of stories, and a few of them happened (at random) to contain similarities to the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    The Flood fairy tale might be an adapted version of the Sumerian Flood fairy tale, which "if" "inspired" by any event would probably put it in modern day Iraq as opposed to Palestine.
    Entirely agree, it's consistent with the strong similarities between the two stories, how oral traditions tend to be embellished with time, and with the migrations of the Hebrew people.
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  15. #115  
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    The flood is real. Just ask the folks in doggerland.
    Oops, you can't ask them now as doggerland is underwater.
    Gee darn.

    As to the rest of the story. Stories change over time, with embellishments added for myriad reasons.
    Do know that Abraham wasn't Jewish. Abraham was Sumerian. So I would go with the flood story being about the Persian gulf just about the same time that doggerland flooded.

    When people close their minds and build their own boxes, they will never think "outside the box" as that would defeat the original purpose for creating that box.

    good luck hannah
    If you hang out here, you're gonna need it. And, a thick skin wouldn't be inappropriate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The flood is real. Just ask the folks in doggerland.
    Oops, you can't ask them now as doggerland is underwater.
    Gee darn.
    So, at the time, Doggerland was the entire world? was that before or after Pangea?
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  17. #117  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The flood is real. Just ask the folks in doggerland.
    Oops, you can't ask them now as doggerland is underwater.
    Gee darn.
    So, at the time, Doggerland was the entire world? was that before or after Pangea?
    no
    however, as the global sea levels rose, it was global.

    Can you conceive of stories changing, and some things being altered in translation, and some things being added as morality lessons? Do you understand some of the basics of human nature?
    How many of your ancestors stories do you know? And, how many of them do you think 100% accurate?
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  18. #118  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The flood is real. Just ask the folks in doggerland.
    Oops, you can't ask them now as doggerland is underwater.
    Gee darn.
    So, at the time, Doggerland was the entire world? was that before or after Pangea?
    no
    however, as the global sea levels rose, it was global.

    Can you conceive of stories changing, and some things being altered in translation, and some things being added as morality lessons? Do you understand some of the basics of human nature?
    How many of your ancestors stories do you know? And, how many of them do you think 100% accurate?
    Why would humans change "the word of god" over time. that's Blasphemy ins't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    People have lost employment for views on homosexuality.
    And people have lost employment for being homosexual. Fortunately that is declining.

    It has a lot to do with the issue. I'm astonished at the lack of thinking outside of the box. When we have situations where arguments occur for biological make up then surely the best people to assess it would involve some kind of science?
    This sounds a lot like the eugenics arguments, where people used science to "prove" that blacks weren't as good as whites. They used science and everything. Since then it has become widely known as one of the most egregious MISUSES of science in the history of mankind. Many people do not want to repeat that mistake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Why would humans change "the word of god" over time. that's Blasphemy ins't it?
    It's only blasphemy if the other guy does it.
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  21. #121  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The flood is real. Just ask the folks in doggerland.
    Sea level rise from short life to short past life would be by most folks unnoticeable--as it is now even by most folks who live much longer.
    --
    There's simply no proof that the flood story has anything to do with sea level rise anywhere including the Persian gulf delta which have most resembled the marshes along the Shat Al Arab anyhow.

    Much much more likely if it has any basis in fact that its origins came from any number of catastrophic floods from modern day Iraq with several likely locations historically known for flash floods along the ancient TharThar river (today a dry wadi filled with archaeological remains along the shores of what was probably a navigable river), Tigris, Euphrates.
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  22. #122  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    My main aim, is to try and make sense of why people make the decisions and choices they do and why things are written.
    That was the most interesting thing about the short religious studies course I did (I would have gone further but it started getting more about religion and less about history/sociology).
    Some discount God and therefore assume that it is ok to discount or throw the bible to the garbage.
    There has been a lot of work on the bible from a non-religious point of view: literary analysis (e.g. to understand how many authors there were - more than One, surprisingly), historical (e.g. which bits are useful sources for historical events, corroborated by other sources or archaeology), myth (e.g. what sort of stories do different cultures tell), moral (what lessons can we learn from it).Also, some eminent theologians of the Bible have been non-Christian or even atheists. So your claim that the Bible is rejected for PC or similar reasons appear to be false.(Although I wasn't brought up in a particularly religious environment - quite the opposite - I read the Old Testament as a child [there are some good bits but The Lord of the Rings is probably better; I skipped all the endless "... who begat ... who begat ... who begat ..." lists)]. I was surprised when I said to a religious friend, "you know those two different accounts of Genesis ..." and they had no idea what I was talking about.)
    People have lost employment for views on homosexuality. I think it is only fair that we at least have some kind of reasoned debate (if not empirical evidence) to be able to say they are wrong. Don't you think?
    And gay people are STILL losing their lives because people insist on taking the bible literally.

    There have been more people that have lost there jobs for being proLGBT or actually LGBT then have lost their jobs for being anti-LGBT.
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  23. #123  
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    as/re the flood:
    May I direct your attention to melt-water pulse 1A which involved a sea level rise of 20 meters in perhaps less than 200 years for another likely origin of the story.
    Also said to have been 1 1/2 ft./yr.

    The story seems likely to be reflecting a real event, whether from the black sea or the persian gulf, or myriad other places which flooded, and flooded fast, never to be seen above the waves again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    as/re the flood:
    May I direct your attention to melt-water pulse 1A which involved a sea level rise of 20 meters in perhaps less than 200 years for another likely origin of the story.
    Also said to have been 1 1/2 ft./yr.

    The story seems likely to be reflecting a real event, whether from the black sea or the persian gulf, or myriad other places which flooded, and flooded fast, never to be seen above the waves again.
    flooding from seas rising and raining the world into death are two different things. the bible has chosen the latter to stick by.
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  25. #125  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    as/re the flood:
    May I direct your attention to melt-water pulse 1A which involved a sea level rise of 20 meters in perhaps less than 200 years for another likely origin of the story.
    Also said to have been 1 1/2 ft./yr.

    The story seems likely to be reflecting a real event, whether from the black sea or the persian gulf, or myriad other places which flooded, and flooded fast, never to be seen above the waves again.
    How did late paleolithic era people manage to convey a global flood to the authors of the Bible?

    Estimates for the flood event you cite are about 13,000 to 14,000 years ago...
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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