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Thread: Will a atheist believe if god really sends a sign?

  1. #1 Will a atheist believe if god really sends a sign? 
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    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.All the people here are very good in science so I have to ask a question to you all-Situation 1 - What if you asked God for a sign and said you will believe after it comes to you.You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam - Mecca and you were in suppose London.You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London. Dont laugh ,I am not mad.What will you conclude?.If you deny then why?.Thank you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.
    Just a couple of questions regarding the methodology you are considering on utilizing.

    1. Which deity would you address your request to?
    2. How would you be able to determine and verify which of them (deities) granted you the sign?
    3. Why not simply ask for that specific deity (out of the many recorded in history both past and present) to present itself?
    4. Etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.
    If you're actually an atheist why would you ask "god"?

    All the people here are very good in science so I have to ask a question to you all-Situation 1 - What if you asked God for a sign and said you will believe after it comes to you.You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam - Mecca and you were in suppose London.You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London. Dont laugh ,I am not mad.What will you conclude?.If you deny then why?.Thank you.
    What if elephants were really pink?
    Just as likely - or maybe more so.
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    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.
    Just a couple of questions regarding the methodology you are considering on utilizing.
    1. Which deity would you address your request to?
    2. How would you be able to determine and verify which of them (deities) granted you the sign?
    3. Why not simply ask for that specific deity (out of the many recorded in history both past and present) to present itself?
    4. Etc.
    ALLAH- Islam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    Then what will make us believe.Is this not enough.You will be again transported to the place you belong.What if a voice comes from unseen telling that it is a sign from Allah and the incident happened.
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    How do we know God is not already trying to communicate with this primitive species.

    But seriously, allow me to ask you a question. At what point do "God's mysterious ways" become "works of the Devil".
    Thousands of years of holy wars, virulent epidemics that kill millions, tsunamis, volcanos, extinctions of entire species. If we are able to communicate with God, what's the message of it all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    How do we know God is not already trying to communicate with this primitive species.But seriously, allow me to ask you a question. At what point do "God's mysterious ways" become "works of the Devil". Thousands of years of holy wars, virulent epidemics that kill millions, tsunamis, volcanos, extinctions of entire species. If we are able to communicate with God, what's the message of it all?
    Thanks for reply but can you please explain it clearly what are you trying to say.Thanks.I know very little science
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.
    Just a couple of questions regarding the methodology you are considering on utilizing.
    1. Which deity would you address your request to?
    2. How would you be able to determine and verify which of them (deities) granted you the sign?
    3. Why not simply ask for that specific deity (out of the many recorded in history both past and present) to present itself?
    4. Etc.
    ALLAH- Islam
    Why address your request to a specific genre's deity? Have you somehow concluded that if and should such entities exists, there would be only one and not more? And if and should the entity you address your request to really does turn out to be the only one in existence, why would it turn out to be the deity from the abrahamic genre?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam -
    Hmmmm....methinks Lawman believes he was given a sign. Why ask at night as opposed to some time in the early afternoon? Is God a night owl? Sounds like someone believes their prayer was answered. Good topic though.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    How do we know God is not already trying to communicate with this primitive species.But seriously, allow me to ask you a question. At what point do "God's mysterious ways" become "works of the Devil". Thousands of years of holy wars, virulent epidemics that kill millions, tsunamis, volcanos, extinctions of entire species. If we are able to communicate with God, what's the message of it all?
    Thanks for reply but can you please explain it clearly what are you trying to say.Thanks.I know very little science
    The question was not about science. It was about spirituality and what it all means in context of a universal Creator.
    Good? Bad? Implaccable?
    "Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind" (W4U)
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    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you
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    Please I want you to believe that it happened.Who,what,when,why will be talked afterwards.Please please give your conclusion.
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    It depends on the type of evidence brought back I guess. For instance if I woke up with a stone in my hand after dreaming I had been transported somewhere and picked a stone up off the road as 'evidence' I would assume that I had been sleepwalking.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    It depends on the type of evidence brought back I guess. For instance if I woke up with a stone in my hand after dreaming I had been transported somewhere and picked a stone up off the road as 'evidence' I would assume that I had been sleepwalking.
    you came from Mecca and bought something that you could find only there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    What if you asked purposely to go to Mecca in your mind then how will someone know.Why Mecca when only Muslims are allowed there?.It is the most holiest site of Islam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please I want you to believe that it happened.
    I don't.

    Please please give your conclusion.
    If you're saying this happened to you then:
    1) You're deluded.
    2) You're being less than honest when you claim to be an atheist.
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    Please ask your atheist friends and whoever you find on any other forum about this question
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you

    If such a scenario would happen, I could only conclude that there is no explanation.
    It would be a futile attempt to explain an event with something that cannot be explained.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please I want you to believe that it happened.
    I don't.
    Please please give your conclusion.
    If you're saying this happened to you then:1) You're deluded.2) You're being less than honest when you claim to be an atheist.
    You are someone who just don't want to believe if any proof comes to you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you
    If such a scenario would happen, I could only conclude that there is no explanation.It would be a futile attempt to explain an event with something that cannot be explained.
    You won't believe,correct?
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    I would expect that a god could easily convince me that they existed.
    But random wish fulfilment seems a poor way to convince anyone except the predisposed.

    And it would be hubris to think that a god cared more for my own beliefs than for any other non-believer's beliefs.
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    I will cross that bridge when I get to it.
    So far there have been no messages from the gods because they do not exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawman
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.
    Then you would not be thinking clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by lawman
    All the people here are very good in science so I have to ask a question to you all- Situation 1 - What if you asked God for a sign and said you will believe after it comes to you.
    Why! would an atheist ask god for a sign, if an omnipresent creature wants to be known, it would be quite easy for it to be known. Yet it would still be subject to scrutiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by lawman
    You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam - Mecca and you were in suppose London.You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London.
    Well firstly, I would need to establish that I was visiting the place of god and not something taken from my imagination or my believe of what gods place looked like, by a superior aliens species trying to manipulate me/us humans for and to its own ends.
    A superior alien specie could, to us appear to be either god or gods how would we know. They could have the ability to create solid objects out of thin air, so anything you took to prove you were there, could be a fake. As also the whole place could be a fake.
    Quote Originally Posted by lawman
    Dont laugh ,I am not mad.What will you conclude?.If you deny then why?.Thank you.
    See above reasons. You would first need to establish that it is god, it is gods place, etc etc..
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I would expect that a god could easily convince me that they existed.But random wish fulfilment seems a poor way to convince anyone except the predisposed.
    what proof would convince you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I would expect that a god could easily convince me that they existed.But random wish fulfilment seems a poor way to convince anyone except the predisposed.
    what proof would convince you
    Are you doubting that your god could convince me of their existence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    You are someone who just don't want to believe if any proof comes to you
    Yeah.
    And you have no idea what "proof" is.
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    Not if you cannot repeat it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    .You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London.
    read post 14 and 15.You are 100 % sure that you visited?you asked purposely and in mind then how can someone know it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you
    If such a scenario would happen, I could only conclude that there is no explanation.It would be a futile attempt to explain an event with something that cannot be explained.
    You won't believe,correct?

    Believe in what, exactly?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    what proof would convince you
    It would be quite hard. For example, suppose you showed us film of you in Mecca being interviewed live on TV and then being interviewed on live TV in Tokyo 5 minutes later, and then live in New York 5 minutes after that ...

    I would just assume it was a very clever trick as performed all the time by people like Penn and Teller.

    (And if it happened to me, I would assume I was mentally ill.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post

    .You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London.
    read post 14 and 15.You are 100 % sure that you visited?you asked purposely and in mind then how can someone know it
    There, you have just proved your claim twice, so it must be true?
    No one can experience your experience of the wholeness in exactly the same way. It is physically impossible. I don't have to believe you unless you believe me.

    This is why proof is required.
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    As someone raised in a Viking village over a thousand years ago, any doubts about the true god Thor I would have as a Thor Atheist, would be swept away by his manifestation and sign, the Thunder, caused by Thor himself as a sign. He could walk right up to me and say Hi Im Thor, but in his wisdom he decides to give us a sign with the clear sound of thunder. Thunder is a direct sign from Thor himself that he is a true god, unlike all the other gods in mythology of people that happen to be raise in their own culture, that is why they deny the true god (of thunder is) Thor, like Zeus, (yeah right as if he's in charge of Lightning), they are Thor atheists. They may even say that thunder was a sign from Zeus, which is preposterous. Its almost as if they are interpreting a sign based on the culture/mythology they have been exposed to as opposed to the real truth as I see it from my Viking village. Im telling you there is no more true god that Thor.


    - No, as someone raised in antiquity Greek village I am telling you Thor is not a real god, the sign that is thunder and lightning are clear signs that my mythology, Zeus, is real. I am interpreting the clear paranormal sign of thunder based on the particular mythology I happen to be born near, and it so happens that that mythology is the real stuff. As an ancient greek atheist, the thunder might be a sign from Zeus himself if anything. Suggesting that it could Thor is wrong, obviously.

    I cant put pictures but If I could I would put this:

    http://whitsblog.com/wp-content/uplo...6/image_11.png





    (wonka meme)


    In other words, if you scream "God show me a sign!" on top of a mountain just as a freak solar storm is about to cause aurora borealis, not only will you think its a sure sign from god when it is not, but which god you will interpret this to be a sign from is extremely highly dependant on the mythology you have been exposed to, a viking might say its a clear sign from a norse god, a ancient greek will say its greek god, and aztek will say its an aztek god, a christian will say its a sign from his christian god and a muslim, guess which god he will think this is a sign from? Take a wild guess.


    So if an atheist sees a leprechaun on a pink unicorn crossing a rainbow while saying "Im a messenger from God" his interpretation will be based on which ever mythology he was exposed to, if most people around him beleive in Gozer the Gozarian he might think "Hey maybe Gozer is real afterall" or if he is from a christian culture he might say maybe Jesus did walk on water" or he might say "holy crap Im having a hallucination, this cant be real so I need to consult a doctor"
    Last edited by icewendigo; April 13th, 2014 at 08:45 AM.
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    Our saucer which art in a colander, draining be Your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy meatballness be done on earth, as it is meaty in heaven. Give us this day our daily sauce, and forgive us our lack of piracy, as we pirate and smuggle against those who lack piracy with us. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us from non-red meat sauce. For thine is the colander, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. Ramen.

    Hail meatsauce, full of beef. The Spaghetti Monster is with you. Blessed are you among sauces, and blessed is the spice from your shaker. Heated meatsauce, monster of taste, pray for us non-pirates now and at the hour of our hunger. RAmen

    Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day our garlic bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. RAmen.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    What if you asked purposely to go to Mecca in your mind then how will someone know.Why Mecca when only Muslims are allowed there?.It is the most holiest site of Islam.
    Why should an alien species give two craps about human rules in Mecca. And having lived with many Muslims and having become accustomed with their believes, customs and some Arabic, I could certainly blend in well enough to not draw any strong suspicions. So what the allien used a really fast means of transport--that doesn't prove squat.

    --
    To be blunt though, NO singular EXPERIENCE, could convince me of the claim this alien is Allah, or any other god. A god would know the standards of proof to convince rational scientifically minded people and have to do the hard work to proof themselves in that context--by repeatable testings, across multiple disciplines consistent with observations of hypothesis related to their very existence. And even under those conditions, I'd probably remain skeptical and probably be stuck on the idea of how to distinguish between defining god as omnipotent or just defining god as an particularly advanced alien species.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.All the people here are very good in science so I have to ask a question to you all-Situation 1 - What if you asked God for a sign and said you will believe after it comes to you.You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam - Mecca and you were in suppose London.You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London. Dont laugh ,I am not mad.What will you conclude?.If you deny then why?.Thank you.
    Believe? Sure. Worship? No chance.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    I assume if God appeared and proved himself real, then a lot of people would form a resistance to overthrow the dictator.

    They wouldn't fall for the "But I am a loving God" propaganda - not with his record. Especially as he seems to have killed his wife and buried her in the back garden.

    I think that is the real reason that Adam and Eve were thrown out; he was worried they might discover the body when they decide to plant the apple seeds and grow a new Tree of Knowledge. Although, as we all know, apples don't grow true...
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    Then what will make us believe.Is this not enough.You will be again transported to the place you belong.What if a voice comes from unseen telling that it is a sign from Allah and the incident happened.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (or religion.)

    Let's take another example. Let's say you went into the jungles of South Africa, found a tribe that had never met modern society and said "I am Allah and I will prove it." You then cured someone who had just died (through using an AED, then using IV fluids and antibiotics) then started a fire a mile away (using a laser) then flew away (in a jetpack.) Should they believe you are Allah?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    Then what will make us believe.Is this not enough.You will be again transported to the place you belong.What if a voice comes from unseen telling that it is a sign from Allah and the incident happened.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (or religion.)

    Let's take another example. Let's say you went into the jungles of South Africa, found a tribe that had never met modern society and said "I am Allah and I will prove it." You then cured someone who had just died (through using an AED, then using IV fluids and antibiotics) then started a fire a mile away (using a laser) then flew away (in a jetpack.) Should they believe you are Allah?
    So like, shining my flashlight wouldn't have been enough?
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    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
    The honest answer is "I don't know".
    However a god, an omnimax being, should know what would convince me, and be able to fulfil it.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
    I would expect this so-called god to subject herself to peer-review.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
    Define exactly what you mean by "god".
    Then it might be possible to give you an answer.

    I still find it strange that a supposed atheist is asking this...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
    Define exactly what you mean by "god".
    Then it might be possible to give you an answer.

    I still find it strange that a supposed atheist is asking this...

    Perhaps (s)he was a theist, but (s)he still struggles with the religious background (s)he was possibly raised in.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    My answer would have to be, I don’t know either. But what about yourself, Lawman, what “proof” might convince you?

    Hypothetically speaking, say you carelessly lost your legs in some lawnmower accident, yelped, then prayed to Zeus for new legs. Would you believe it was the intervention of Zeus, if both your legs grew back?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    My answer would have to be, I don’t know either. But what about yourself, Lawman, what “proof” might convince you?

    Hypothetically speaking, say you carelessly lost your legs in some lawnmower accident, yelped, then prayed to Zeus for new legs. Would you believe it was the intervention of Zeus, if both your legs grew back?
    Zeus would just bang your wife.
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    GOD owes you nothing except the life you already have.

    There is a fine line between asking for something and demanding that something.

    Be on the safe side, and just don't ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Zeus would just bang your wife.
    Bull!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I read all the post.The final answer is that the sign is not sufficient.So what sign will make us believe?.Please reply the sign that will make you believe.
    An atheist knows there will be no proof. So suggesting anything for the matter where you ask what proof he believes, anything, however he must view it as proof. Which will basically be a tour of heaven, hell, and bringing back a souvenir like an object that defies all logic. Say like zeus's lightning bolt, horn of infinite grain, and the golden fleece (which cures all ailments, including death itself).

    Show us an artifact that is impossible, and we will acknowledge god, and heaven and everything.

    Everything else could be interpreted as a hallucination.

    Some possible things would be good as well. Like a gigantic statue of god appearing in the middle of ... anywhere. Or some sort of skybridge to heaven appearing. Or seeing a human with wings, which can fly (not impossible).
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    My answer would have to be, I don’t know either. But what about yourself, Lawman, what “proof” might convince you?

    Hypothetically speaking, say you carelessly lost your legs in some lawnmower accident, yelped, then prayed to Zeus for new legs. Would you believe it was the intervention of Zeus, if both your legs grew back?
    Zeus would just bang your wife.
    Or your husband
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    Maybe I should have gone for a less promiscuous deity. What about Poseidon? *looks him up on wiki* Second thoughts, best just leave it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    Maybe I should have gone for a less promiscuous deity. What about Poseidon? *looks him up on wiki* Second thoughts, best just leave it!
    Forget about hiding your wife. You better hide your pets...
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    Then what will make us believe.Is this not enough.You will be again transported to the place you belong.What if a voice comes from unseen telling that it is a sign from Allah and the incident happened.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (or religion.)

    Let's take another example. Let's say you went into the jungles of South Africa, found a tribe that had never met modern society and said "I am Allah and I will prove it." You then cured someone who had just died (through using an AED, then using IV fluids and antibiotics) then started a fire a mile away (using a laser) then flew away (in a jetpack.) Should they believe you are Allah?
    Good luck finding undiscovered people here, not to mention jungles. But your point is well made. Have you heard of the cargo cults?

    Cargo cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What better demonstration of man's propensity to develop religions?
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    Can science devise an event that would leave no doubt as to God's existence? I'm not even sure if we had the god claimant cut Lawman's head off and reattach it that there wouldn't be at least one skeptic. I wonder if Lawman would volunteer for such an experiment.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Believe? No. I'd probably assume I watched Contact prior to going to bed, and was currently having a dream of similar plot.
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    Why don't we all pray for peace on Earth....been tried?.....oh well. But if God ever managed to come down here and weave his magic then peace is all I would need. I wouldn't give two shits how he did it or if he was a god but I would certainly believe a power exists that we can't fathom at the moment.

    Kind of makes me wonder why people do believe in God. Is it because He can create the most amazing things at will or just lay waste to everything in a whim? I can't see why anyone would believe in God for what amounts to parlor tricks or advanced science. Isn't it the perception of ultimate power that makes us cower?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Why don't we all pray for...
    Which comes back to the matter I've brought up in post #2. Which deity is the request/prayer to be addressed to?
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    How do we know that someone who has been to Mecca didn't hypnotise you into thinking you made a miraculous journey, and planted the artefact that could only come from Mecca on you?
    "Ok, brain let's get things straight. You don't like me, and I don't like you, so let's do this so I can go back to killing you with beer." - Homer
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Why don't we all pray for...
    Which comes back to the matter I've brought up in post #2. Which deity is the request/prayer to be addressed to?

    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    How do we know that someone who has been to Mecca didn't hypnotise you into thinking you made a miraculous journey, and planted the artefact that could only come from Mecca on you?

    I do not think that hypnosis is effective if the individual is not willing to undergo hypnosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Why don't we all pray for...
    Which comes back to the matter I've brought up in post #2. Which deity is the request/prayer to be addressed to?
    Does it matter? Monotheists don't seem to agree that they are all worshipping the same god. I suppose Polytheists think the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Does it matter?
    Yes, actually it does.

    To conduct an experiment that bears some semblance to the methodology of the scientific method will require us to define its parameters. We can't possibly sent out an email without knowing the email address to send it out to, and even if we do sent out a mass email blast to any and all addresses and the request/prayer is answered, how would we know which email addressee acted on the request? Send an email to the abrahamic deity, and it may turns out that Ganesha responded. Send an email to Nuwa, and it may turn out that Tawa responded.

    Last edited by scoobydoo1; April 12th, 2014 at 01:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    How do we know God is not already trying to communicate with this primitive species.

    But seriously, allow me to ask you a question. At what point do "God's mysterious ways" become "works of the Devil".
    Thousands of years of holy wars, virulent epidemics that kill millions, tsunamis, volcanos, extinctions of entire species. If we are able to communicate with God, what's the message of it all?
    I think if men stopped the wars, gods would too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Does it matter?
    Yes, actually it does.
    Scoob, the question was posed to atheists, so any divine related matters wouldn't matter to them. It matters a great deal more to theists as to which deity shows up or answers prayers, etc.
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    I'd consider it. But it would have to be one hell of a sign.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Why don't we all pray for peace on Earth....been tried?.....oh well. But if God ever managed to come down here and weave his magic then peace is all I would need. I wouldn't give two shits how he did it or if he was a god but I would certainly believe a power exists that we can't fathom at the moment.

    Kind of makes me wonder why people do believe in God. Is it because He can create the most amazing things at will or just lay waste to everything in a whim? I can't see why anyone would believe in God for what amounts to parlor tricks or advanced science. Isn't it the perception of ultimate power that makes us cower?
    People believe in god because they do not want to take responsibility for themselves, that's my version of why people believe in god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Scoob, the question was posed to atheists, so any divine related matters wouldn't matter to them.
    And as someone who holds and atheistic stance, that would be one of the factors to take into consideration when I offer a recommendation as to how an experiment such as one that is mentioned in the OP ought to take note of. This is in-fact just one of the conditions that have filtered out all the claims made by proclaimants to date for me personally, and there are more behind it. The points I've highlighted in post #2 also serves a secondary function to subtly point out to believers who may be afflicted with the "Only Orange is a Fruit" fallacy, allowing them the opportunity to be (ever-so-slightly) aware of how shaky the foundations of their belief system may be should they be so afflicted.

    My personal take on whether or not deities exists, whether such an experiment is likely to be a futile endeavor and/or indeterminately inconclusive, etc. matters not because I do not make it a habit to function through the act of believing; especially more so when it comes to the existence and nature of entities that are paradoxical.
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    I do hope we have not driven poor 'Lawman' away with our blatant structures of disbelief.
    ~ He states being atheist and yet... asks God ? Who Transports him to Mecca and returns him conscious to London with a artifact.. "Who spiked my drink", would be my first reaction, and I would seek medical assistance.. Nothing like what 'lawman' has said can or has happened. It is simply just not possible to be suddenly transported thousands of miles and to be returned with samples of ?? So then he changes tack and asks what would convince us.. and that 'proof' would be a good start. That some sort of alien craft moves into Earth orbit and communicates with humanity directly.. Landing craft and actual beings.. and yes,. If 'they' start telling tales of biblical events and talk of things familiar.. then a rethink of status would be pending.. and very, very interesting...
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    "Who spiked my drink", would be my first reaction
    Nice!
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    Why are you people not understanding my question.I am saying that let's change think you asked god to teleport me to (wherever you want to ) if you exist.You say it in your mind.How can some disgusting alien thing can understand it.Next is you are awake and you disappear and are in the place you want and no one is with you when you are done you ask god to take me again to my native place.Then same happens and you reach there awake in your room.No point for you to say someone spiked,or hypnotized or alien did it.You all are giving clear signs that it's just you don't want to believe. Dont ask my question to me.Everyone thanks for replying but please clearly tell what is the sign that you just can't deny.Thank you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    No. By the methods of science anecdotes are not compelling evidence. I might however, after being convinced that I wasn't somehow insane (a difficult thing to self-access) apply Ockham's razor, and conclude it might most likely that what ever had transported me probably represented some technologically advanced species that evolved on another planet.
    I don't think Occam's razor would indicate that an alien species is not only advanced enough to pull off this feat, but observing you at presumably all times and able to accurately interpret your request.
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    I became atheist after questioning about religion and as I said I don't know science.I want to ask you that why do we atheist believe the god doesn't exist.Which scientific theory makes us atheist.We think that the creation was coincidence and we are formed by evolution.Is that it?
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    A sign I would believe? Well I would need more than one. All wars would need to stop, right now. All humans would need to live with each other equally. All disease needs to stop. All suffering needs to disappear. All our energy problems need to disappear. If this world has been created the creator should have no problem making all this happen today - if it does, I'll believe.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    What about #72
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    I would need something which flagrantly contradicts the known laws of physics.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I became atheist after questioning about religion and as I said I don't know science.I want to ask you that why do we atheist believe the god doesn't exist.Which scientific theory makes us atheist.We think that the creation was coincidence and we are formed by evolution.Is that it?
    In general atheists do NOT "believe that god doesn't exist". They/ we simply don't believe he/ she/ it does.
    And the "scientific theory" is that there is no evidence which leads us to believe that he/ she/ it does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    A sign I would believe? Well I would need more than one. All wars would need to stop, right now. All humans would need to live with each other equally. All disease needs to stop. All suffering needs to disappear. All our energy problems need to disappear. If this world has been created the creator should have no problem making all this happen today - if it does, I'll believe.
    That's fairly presumptuous, I think. I don't really see any rational basis for those as basic assumptions about a G-d. I'd be willing to hear why that is a basic assumption, but it seems that is built on dozens of other assumptions you'd have to make first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    A sign I would believe? Well I would need more than one. All wars would need to stop, right now. All humans would need to live with each other equally. All disease needs to stop. All suffering needs to disappear. All our energy problems need to disappear. If this world has been created the creator should have no problem making all this happen today - if it does, I'll believe.
    That's fairly presumptuous, I think. I don't really see any rational basis for those as basic assumptions about a G-d. I'd be willing to hear why that is a basic assumption, but it seems that is built on dozens of other assumptions you'd have to make first.
    They are not basic assumptions - the OP asked an hypothetical question and I gave him my hypothetical answer. There's no right or wrong about it - thats what it would take for me to believe is all. Those are my criteria.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    A sign I would believe? Well I would need more than one. All wars would need to stop, right now. All humans would need to live with each other equally. All disease needs to stop. All suffering needs to disappear. All our energy problems need to disappear. If this world has been created the creator should have no problem making all this happen today - if it does, I'll believe.
    That's fairly presumptuous, I think. I don't really see any rational basis for those as basic assumptions about a G-d. I'd be willing to hear why that is a basic assumption, but it seems that is built on dozens of other assumptions you'd have to make first.
    They are not basic assumptions - the OP asked an hypothetical question and I gave him my hypothetical answer. There's no right or wrong about it - thats what it would take for me to believe is all. Those are my criteria.
    I suppose. I am just wondering why those in particular would lead you to believe there is a G-d. Why not other, equally profound feats to prove the existence of a Divine Being that don't necessitate one that has the motivation to solve all human ills?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    I suppose. I am just wondering why those in particular would lead you to believe there is a G-d. Why not other, equally profound feats to prove the existence of a Divine Being that don't necessitate one that has the motivation to solve all human ills?
    What other profound feats are you thinking of?

    I can only answer from my perspective - if I were creating something I wouldn't make wonderful things in order to watch them destroy and torture themselves and the other things I had made. If I wanted something to love me I wouldn't inflict all sorts of nasties on it and then expect it to keep on loving me without question - that whole 'I only hurt you because I love you' thing doesn't wash with me. If a creator has the ability to create such a wonderful world in a magical afterlife ie heaven then he can do it here where I can see, hear and experience it.

    Its still hypothetical to me though because I actually believe we need adversity in order to thrive. If we lived in a heaven described in most religions I think we would die of boredom - in order to enjoy the good we need to experience the bad. Although I could definitely handle living in a world where humans left other animals alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    I suppose. I am just wondering why those in particular would lead you to believe there is a G-d. Why not other, equally profound feats to prove the existence of a Divine Being that don't necessitate one that has the motivation to solve all human ills?
    What other profound feats are you thinking of?

    I can only answer from my perspective - if I were creating something I wouldn't make wonderful things in order to watch them destroy and torture themselves and the other things I had made. If I wanted something to love me I wouldn't inflict all sorts of nasties on it and then expect it to keep on loving me without question - that whole 'I only hurt you because I love you' thing doesn't wash with me. If a creator has the ability to create such a wonderful world in a magical afterlife ie heaven then he can do it here where I can see, hear and experience it.

    Its still hypothetical to me though because I actually believe we need adversity in order to thrive. If we lived in a heaven described in most religions I think we would die of boredom - in order to enjoy the good we need to experience the bad. Although I could definitely handle living in a world where humans left other animals alone.
    All right, thanks for answering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I became atheist after questioning about religion and as I said I don't know science.I want to ask you that why do we atheist believe the god doesn't exist.Which scientific theory makes us atheist.We think that the creation was coincidence and we are formed by evolution.Is that it?
    ~ You sound like you want to be a atheist yet you are demanding we give room for your little 'teleport' You also state you are not a person of science well some of us are. It is intolerable to just believe anything that is not science for some of us. As for your last sentence ~ NO. This atheist has yet to be shown any proofs of God, or any other entity of supreme being status. What other people believe is not mine. So I choose to be atheist as the whole idea that any God might have created is just silly unfounded nonsense. I stopped believing silly stories while still a child.. I can argue evolution and I can show the science of astrophysics. God does not get a word in. My Universe is very, very big. Yet I find no room for Gods. Which scientific theory makes me atheist ~ All of them. It does not make my view better than yours, but it does answer ALL of the questions you ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Why are you people not understanding my question.I am saying that let's change think you asked god to teleport me to (wherever you want to ) if you exist.You say it in your mind.How can some disgusting alien thing can understand it.Next is you are awake and you disappear and are in the place you want and no one is with you when you are done you ask god to take me again to my native place.Then same happens and you reach there awake in your room.No point for you to say someone spiked,or hypnotized or alien did it.You all are giving clear signs that it's just you don't want to believe. Dont ask my question to me.Everyone thanks for replying but please clearly tell what is the sign that you just can't deny.Thank you
    The mistake I see with this is; That you use the word believe. I will not. Without what I call substantial truths. see post # 68. My demand of proofs of scientific revue.. that is what science demands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Why are you people not understanding my question.I am saying that let's change think you asked god to teleport me to (wherever you want to ) if you exist.You say it in your mind.How can some disgusting alien thing can understand it.Next is you are awake and you disappear and are in the place you want and no one is with you when you are done you ask god to take me again to my native place.Then same happens and you reach there awake in your room.No point for you to say someone spiked,or hypnotized or alien did it.You all are giving clear signs that it's just you don't want to believe. Dont ask my question to me.Everyone thanks for replying but please clearly tell what is the sign that you just can't deny.Thank you
    There is no possible sign of any personal experience. You're little story does not lend itself to reasoning or scientific method. The entire idea that we should accept signs as valid evidence of anything is archaic, superstitious and ridiculous. Period.
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    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
    I might think there are yellow foxes, and would have a good reason to think they exist. I wouldn't "believe" there are yellow foxes. Besides, the particular example does not make for a good comparison. I'm reasonable sure that yellow is within the normal ranges of canines, because I've seen and know others who have enjoyed yellow dogs. If on the other hand I saw a flying yellow fox, that would be a better comparison to the extraordinary examples given by the OP, in which case I would not trust my own observations and think it more likely I was insane than whether there were actual yellow flying foxes.

    (I actually had a pet fox when I was a boy before nanny state laws forbid it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
    Why! Without verification, of what value is an eye witness account.
    If you me and a hundred others decided to create a falsehood about a dragon, does that make the dragon story true does the dragon suddenly exist, no not without further corroborating evidence. A lie told as a truth still remains a lie.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
    I might think there are yellow foxes, and would have a good reason to think they exist. I wouldn't "believe" there are yellow foxes. Besides, the particular example does not make for a good comparison. I'm reasonable sure that yellow is within the normal ranges of canines, because I've seen and know others who have enjoyed yellow dogs. If on the other hand I saw a flying yellow fox, that would be a better comparison to the extraordinary examples given by the OP, in which case I would not trust my own observations and think it more likely I was insane than whether there were actual yellow flying foxes.



    (I actually had a pet fox when I was a boy before nanny state laws forbid it).
    My point is that personal experience is not completely invalid as a reason to believe something. It isn't very useful in a discussion or to science, but it isn't irrational to include personal experiences in your opinions. Everyone seems to be acting like anything that isn't externally verifiable has no reason to be factored into your belief system.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
    Why! Without verification, of what value is an eye witness account.
    If you me and a hundred others decided to create a falsehood about a dragon, does that make the dragon story true does the dragon suddenly exist, no not without further corroborating evidence. A lie told as a truth still remains a lie.
    That's not my point, and I never said that anectodes are real evidence. What I said was that a personal experience is a reason for the individual to believe in that thing. Not a reason for anyone else too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    My point is that personal experience is not completely invalid as a reason to believe something. It isn't very useful in a discussion or to science, but it isn't irrational to include personal experiences in your opinions. Everyone seems to be acting like anything that isn't externally verifiable has no reason to be factored into your belief system.
    My point is why have a belief system at all? There no need to when reason can be applied to determine the facts of a thing. Once we hit the age of reasoning, we should strive to be rid of our belief systems and work towards more empirical and verifiable perspective about the world around us--we should our children with the skills to do so.

    I struggled to be rid of mine as a teenager moving from emotional bound guilt ridden Christianity that I'd learned from family towards a more objective view of the horrible bible and a growing understanding that science was a far more effective means to truths about reality than an bronze ages tribal customs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    My point is that personal experience is not completely invalid as a reason to believe something. It isn't very useful in a discussion or to science, but it isn't irrational to include personal experiences in your opinions. Everyone seems to be acting like anything that isn't externally verifiable has no reason to be factored into your belief system.
    My point is why have a belief system at all? There no need to when reason can be applied to determine the facts of a thing. Once we hit the age of reasoning, we should strive to be rid of our belief systems and work towards more empirical and verifiable perspective about the world around us--we should our children with the skills to do so.

    I struggled to be rid of mine as a teenager moving from emotional bound guilt ridden Christianity that I'd learned from family towards a more objective view of the horrible bible and a growing understanding that science was a far more effective means to truths about reality than an bronze ages tribal customs.
    My point is why have a belief system at all? There no need to when reason can be applied to determine the facts of a thing. Once we hit the age of reasoning, we should strive to be rid of our belief systems and work towards more empirical and verifiable perspective about the world around us--we should our children with the skills to do so.
    Lynx, your proposal sounds easier said than done, how do you get rid of a belief system, even when reasoning can be applied. Are you suggesting we can get rid of believing in anything? and proving everything? Maybe you are seeing more than I can see, but I do not know how to get rid of anything except by controlling it. However I stand to be corrected.
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    Only if the sign from god is peer reviewed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Are you suggesting we can get rid of believing in anything? and proving everything?
    Yes absolutely. It starts with not teaching anything that isn't probable and confirmed to a large degree by science. And when stories are used they are clearly told as stories and understand as such by the child (e.g. Aesop's fables are far more powerful than OT stories anyhow). Than you teach the kid to develop their own reasoning skill to discard things without empirical evidence. I think it's only hard for those still emotionally bound up in superstitions or unwilling to examine their own thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Are you suggesting we can get rid of believing in anything? and proving everything?
    Yes absolutely. It starts with not teaching anything that isn't probable and confirmed to a large degree by science. And when stories are used they are clearly told as stories and understand as such by the child (e.g. Aesop's fables are far more powerful than OT stories anyhow). Than you teach the kid to develop their own reasoning skill to discard things without empirical evidence. I think it's only hard for those still emotionally bound up in superstitions or unwilling to examine their own thinking.
    I cannot see how one can know everything, there has to be something outside of knowing, belief can be the jumping pad to knowing. How do you get rid of anything once there is the opposite? Science uses the term probabilities, is it not a another word for belief?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate
    probabilities, is it not a another word for belief?
    No. Not at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I cannot see how one can know everything
    Beside the point.

    belief can be the jumping pad to knowing.
    As often as not belief is an excuse for remaining ignorant.

    How do you get rid of anything once there is the opposite?
    I don't know what you use in place of thought processes, but whatever it is has let you down badly here.
    This is meaningless. Utterly and completely.

    Science uses the term probabilities, is it not a another word for belief?
    Not even close.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; April 14th, 2014 at 12:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post

    I cannot see how one can know everything, there has to be something outside of knowing, belief can be the jumping pad to knowing.
    No one says we have to know everything, in fact there are really good physical and statistically reasons why many things will remain unknowable. It's not really part of this discussion. Belief is seldom a jumping pad to knowledge...if anything it's most often the opposite.

    How do you get rid of anything once there is the opposite?
    Huh?

    Science uses the term probabilities, is it not a another word for belief?
    Not at all. Belief implies (at least how religious has monopolized the term) that empirical verifiable evidence isn't required. Probability doesn't lead to belief...it leads to likelihood of conclusions based on physical evidence or if it's a process in question until a better fitting hypothesis comes along.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; April 14th, 2014 at 12:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Does it matter?
    Yes, actually it does.

    To conduct an experiment that bears some semblance to the methodology of the scientific method will require us to define its parameters. We can't possibly sent out an email without knowing the email address to send it out to, and even if we do sent out a mass email blast to any and all addresses and the request/prayer is answered, how would we know which email addressee acted on the request? Send an email to the abrahamic deity, and it may turns out that Ganesha responded. Send an email to Nuwa, and it may turn out that Tawa responded.
    I very much agree. I've seen plenty of signs, and am thoroughly convinced that some version of mysticism and/or the supernatural is real.

    Does it prompt me to believe in Jesus Christ specifically? No. I really don't believe in him. Would seeing 100 more signs prompt me to believe in him? No.

    If some dude tells me he's infinity honest, all knowing, and his name is "Jesus Christ" and then does a big miracle, all that tells me for certain is that he can do miracles.

    It doesn't prove any of his other claims. For all I know, he could be a horribly dishonest wizard named "Malvolio" who's seen how successful churches are in the USA and wants to carve out a share of the profits. Or maybe an alien with advanced technology looking to communicate using symbols from my culture.
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    I often wonder why Xians trust in their god. The only evidence they have that their god is honest is that god says he's honest. There's independent corroborating evidence that he's powerful (in the form of semi-reliable witness testimony)

    But there's really no proof of god's honesty, decency, nor of his love for mankind anywhere in the bible. All we have is his word on that stuff.
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    Complicated innuendos of there being a left of if there is a right, need not be so..
    Biblically speaking it is said that the rainbow seen was some sign or promise of the Gods intent.. That someone has drawn conclusions from biblical texts as to the meaning of a rainbow. That a modern interpretation of light refraction and rain drops might have a effect in certain light conditions. That a understanding of the spectrographic spectrum sort of places the sign in jeopardy.
    My contention is that the greater your understanding of science the harder it becomes for religious doctrines to prevail. That the people of the dark ages had no understandings of sciences allowed the control of the flock by force and fear. Religions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    A personal experience can be evidence to that person. If you advocated a belief in an undiscovered species of yellow fox, and you captured and studied said fox, it escaping before you could show others wouldn't mean you now have no reason to believe in it. However, you shouldn't expect your anecdote to convince others. Enough eyewitness accounts, though, and outsiders should at least consider the idea.
    This is not a good analogy. The level of evidence required to accept something as a possibility depends on how plausible the idea is. Yellow foxes don't sound completely impossible, so there would no real reason to completely reject the idea. (Especially if the researcher had photographs, DNA, samples of fur, a good record of relevant science and similar discoveries, etc.)

    However, an extraordinary claim of travelling instantly round the world would contradict all known physics. Without some extraordinary evidence the idea should be treated with extreme scepticism (and all the obviously more plausible explanations considered to be more likely).
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