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Thread: Will a atheist believe if god really sends a sign?

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    Yes, we know you say that. The question is why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    I am researching religion with help of science and will believe only after enough research.
    Then you're in a bit of a pickel.Science can tell you about religion (i.e. the practise itself) but it can't tell you anything about "god".Science is highly unlikely to lead to belief.
    Are you a scientist?
    How is that relevant?
    A scientist, is in my opinion, likely to believe. I know Dywyddyr isn't a believer but he doesn't often express scientific facts, but more often just argues logic.
    What kind of scientist and why on Earth would we be more likely to believe in God than any other person?
    It is my opinion. So it it based on a feeling within myself. I find science so fascinating that it is hard to think the whole cosmos and everything about it and in it didn't have some intelligence behind it.
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  3. #203  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is my opinion. So it it based on a feeling within myself. I find science so fascinating that it is hard to think the whole cosmos and everything about it and in it didn't have some intelligence behind it.
    We know that. Unfortunately, you cannot provide any logical reason as to WHY you believe that other than, "The universe is complicated and I don't understand it so it must be God."
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    But you believe all sorts of weird shit, and make up even more. Science is the thing you don't do.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    But you believe all sorts of weird shit, and make up even more. Science is the thing you don't do.
    Said by a "scientific atheist" I presume.
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  6. #206  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    But you believe all sorts of weird shit, and make up even more. Science is the thing you don't do.
    Said by a "scientific atheist" I presume.
    Wouldn't matter since your premise is completely unfounded.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    But you believe all sorts of weird shit, and make up even more. Science is the thing you don't do.
    Said by a "scientific atheist" I presume.
    Wouldn't matter since your premise is completely unfounded.
    Flick I admire your judgement, but AlexG and I never agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    But you believe all sorts of weird shit, and make up even more. Science is the thing you don't do.
    Said by a "scientific atheist" I presume.
    Said by someone who has watched you post nonsensical crap on several boards for several years.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    I'm not sure what that means. I have read it three times and come out with something different each time.

    Are you saying:
    - Science is more plausible if it comes from a religious scientist?
    - If an atheist says he doesn't believe in God, you think he may be lying? (But if a religious person says he is religious you are more likely to think he is saying the truth?)

    And it doesn't appear to bear any relation to what you said before. Your initial statement was (apparently) about scientists vs non-scientists; and scientists being more likely to believe. Now it is about what you will believe from two different sorts of scientist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is my opinion. So it it based on a feeling within myself.
    And, as noted above, it is wrong. But I assume you won't change your opinion.

    I find science so fascinating that it is hard to think the whole cosmos and everything about it and in it didn't have some intelligence behind it.
    In other words: you don't understand any science therefore God.
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    There are three currently active atheist threads, with the same posters making the same arguments.

    Perhaps they should be merged?
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    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    There are three currently active atheist threads, with the same posters making the same arguments.

    Perhaps they should be merged deleted?
    Fixed.
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  13. #213  
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    It always amazes me how some people who claim to find science fascinating would rather make stuff up than study it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    I'm not sure what that means. I have read it three times and come out with something different each time.

    Are you saying:
    - Science is more plausible if it comes from a religious scientist?
    - If an atheist says he doesn't believe in God, you think he may be lying? (But if a religious person says he is religious you are more likely to think he is saying the truth?)

    And it doesn't appear to bear any relation to what you said before. Your initial statement was (apparently) about scientists vs non-scientists; and scientists being more likely to believe. Now it is about what you will believe from two different sorts of scientist.
    What was your third version? lol

    Number 2 hit the nail on the head. If a person is a scientist and he says he believes in God, I'd believe him. But when scientific atheists say "I don't believe in God", I don't believe them.
    I don't say I think there is anything wrong with their science but just their sincerity with regards to their inner feelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is my opinion. So it it based on a feeling within myself.
    And, as noted above, it is wrong. But I assume you won't change your opinion.

    I find science so fascinating that it is hard to think the whole cosmos and everything about it and in it didn't have some intelligence behind it.
    In other words: you don't understand any science therefore God.
    I assume that is merely an opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It always amazes me how some people who claim to find science fascinating would rather make stuff up than study it.
    I know nothing about science, I reject any attempt to educate me, and I have no involvement in science in any way.

    Time to join a science forum!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It always amazes me how some people who claim to find science fascinating would rather make stuff up than study it.
    I know nothing about science, I reject any attempt to educate me, and I have no involvement in science in any way.

    Time to join a science forum!
    You're welcome!
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  18. #218  
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    The answer is: Maybe yes, maybe no. Example of those who were asking for signs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heC08xCK0YM
    Men are four: He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool--shun him; He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple--teach him; He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep--wake him; He who knows and knows he knows, hi is wise--follow him!
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  19. #219  
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    Response to post #216. This does seem to describe some posters on this forum. It depresses me that they are then dense enough to think their made up crap has any validity as science and how much they whine when it is pointed out by people who have actually studied science how smelly the BS is. To quote an old boss of mine: "what the f*** is wrong with them?".
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Response to post #216. This does seem to describe some posters on this forum. It depresses me that they are then dense enough to think their made up crap has any validity as science and how much they whine when it is pointed out by people who have actually studied science how smelly the BS is. To quote an old boss of mine: "what the f*** is wrong with them?".
    "what the f*** is wrong with them?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Number 2 hit the nail on the head. If a person is a scientist and he says he believes in God, I'd believe him. But when scientific atheists say "I don't believe in God", I don't believe them.
    That's because you're a deluded idiot.

    I don't say I think there is anything wrong with their science but just their sincerity with regards to their inner feelings.
    I'm much the same with people I beat up.
    They keep saying "I don't like to be punched", but I'm sure they don't actually mean it: they're just being insincere.
    In short you're a completely deluded idiot.

    What possible reason do you have for doubting their sincerity?
    What possible reason would they have for being insincere?
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; April 17th, 2014 at 04:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    [Number 2 hit the nail on the head. If a person is a scientist and he says he believes in God, I'd believe him. But when scientific atheists say "I don't believe in God", I don't believe them.
    I don't say I think there is anything wrong with their science but just their sincerity with regards to their inner feelings.
    That is bizarre. So if a religious person says they like Abba you believe them But if an atheist says they like Abba you think they are probably lying?

    And why scientists? Does the same not apply to religious/atheist plumbers?
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  23. #223  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I assume that is merely an opinion.
    It is a deduction based on the evidence you provide.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    I'm not sure what that means. I have read it three times and come out with something different each time.

    Are you saying:
    - Science is more plausible if it comes from a religious scientist?
    - If an atheist says he doesn't believe in God, you think he may be lying? (But if a religious person says he is religious you are more likely to think he is saying the truth?)

    And it doesn't appear to bear any relation to what you said before. Your initial statement was (apparently) about scientists vs non-scientists; and scientists being more likely to believe. Now it is about what you will believe from two different sorts of scientist.
    What was your third version? lol

    Number 2 hit the nail on the head. If a person is a scientist and he says he believes in God, I'd believe him. But when scientific atheists say "I don't believe in God", I don't believe them.
    I don't say I think there is anything wrong with their science but just their sincerity with regards to their inner feelings.
    This is a ridiculous thing to say. We have been over this before and all it does is display your tendency towards arguments from incredulity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    .... This is a ridiculous thing to say. We have been over this before and all it does is display your tendency towards arguments from incredulity.
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    Google definition:
    Defining "incredulity" the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
    synonyms: disbelief, incredulousness, lack of belief, unbelief, lack of credence, doubt,doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, lack of conviction.
    So I don't know if incredulity is the right word. For I do do believe things.
    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers". That is closer to what I was expressing.
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    Number 2 hit the nail on the head. If a person is a scientist and he says he believes in God, I'd believe him. But when scientific atheists say "I don't believe in God", I don't believe them.

    I don't say I think there is anything wrong with their science but just their sincerity with regards to their inner feelings.
    I don't think you realise quite what you're saying here. You are accusing atheist scientists of being dishonest about their thoughts and their feelings.

    What about other atheists? Engineers, designers, architects, builders, mechanics, teachers ... all of us. Are you telling us atheists that you think we're all of us being dishonest about our thinking?

    That's a hell of an insult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    When I was young, I couldn't really believe that French people actually spoke French all the time. I assumed that sooner or later they would drop the pretence and go back to English. I grew out of that. It is about time you grew up as well.

    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers".
    That is what you are saying. And it is just stupid (and pretty offensive).

    And, again: why scientists?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    When I was young, I couldn't really believe that French people actually spoke French all the time. I assumed that sooner or later they would drop the pretence and go back to English. I grew out of that. It is about time you grew up as well.

    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers".
    That is what you are saying. And it is just stupid (and pretty offensive).

    And, again: why scientists?
    Fair enough, we live and learn. Scientists because it is a science forum and it is science that describes the Universe around us. You guys don't care about offending me. Look I'm not intending to offend anyone I'm just giving my personal opinion.
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    Look I'm not intending to offend anyone I'm just giving my personal opinion.
    It just happens to be an insulting one.

    We don't know you, but you're saying that you're willing to dismiss all of the people on here who say they are atheists as deluded or dishonest or both. That's really offensive. You might have observed from time to time that some of us jump down the throats of some atheists who insult believers by saying that they're deluded. You seem quite happy to to do the same in the opposite direction.

    That makes you a distinctly not nice person.
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  30. #230  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    .... This is a ridiculous thing to say. We have been over this before and all it does is display your tendency towards arguments from incredulity.
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    Google definition:
    Defining "incredulity" the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
    synonyms: disbelief, incredulousness, lack of belief, unbelief, lack of credence, doubt,doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, lack of conviction.
    So I don't know if incredulity is the right word. For I do do believe things.
    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers". That is closer to what I was expressing.
    Rather look at "Argument from Personal Incredulity". Basically, it means that because you aren't able to fathom something, that it must then be false to you. You are saying that because YOU can't imagine how we don't believe in gods, that that must mean that we really do believe and are simply lying or hiding from it or something.

    That is a very common fallacy and one you have exhibited regarding multiple things on this forum. It puts you in a very negative light and is responsible for much of the opposition you have encountered around here. You are prone to woolly thinking and badly so, but you are unable to recognise as much and you keep displaying it again and again. No attempt to get you to see this has been successful. You just keep droning on thinking you are being clever and you are pissing a lot of people off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    .... This is a ridiculous thing to say. We have been over this before and all it does is display your tendency towards arguments from incredulity.
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    Google definition:
    Defining "incredulity" the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
    synonyms: disbelief, incredulousness, lack of belief, unbelief, lack of credence, doubt,doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, lack of conviction.

    So I don't know if incredulity is the right word. For I do do believe things.
    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers". That is closer to what I was expressing.
    Rather look at "Argument from Personal Incredulity". Basically, it means that because you aren't able to fathom something, that it must then be false to you. You are saying that because YOU can't imagine how we don't believe in gods, that that must mean that we really do believe and are simply lying or hiding from it or something.

    That is a very common fallacy and one you have exhibited regarding multiple things on this forum. It puts you in a very negative light and is responsible for much of the opposition you have encountered around here. You are prone to woolly thinking and badly so, but you are unable to recognise as much and you keep displaying it again and again. No attempt to get you to see this has been successful. You just keep droning on thinking you are being clever and you are pissing a lot of people off.
    They are three people I don't mind pissing off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Look I'm not intending to offend anyone I'm just giving my personal opinion.
    It just happens to be an insulting one.

    We don't know you, but you're saying that you're willing to dismiss all of the people on here who say they are atheists as deluded or dishonest or both. That's really offensive. You might have observed from time to time that some of us jump down the throats of some atheists who insult believers by saying that they're deluded. You seem quite happy to to do the same in the opposite direction.

    That makes you a distinctly not nice person.
    I have been insulted too, but that seems OK.
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  33. #233  
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    A sign from above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you
    If such a scenario would happen, I could only conclude that there is no explanation.It would be a futile attempt to explain an event with something that cannot be explained.
    You won't believe,correct?
    Just because something can't be readily explained does not mean "god did it" or it's "a miracle"
    In the past schizophrenia couldn't be explained and so it was explained away as Demons. Is that really proof? what you're suggesting is akin to that rational.
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    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    .... This is a ridiculous thing to say. We have been over this before and all it does is display your tendency towards arguments from incredulity.
    You could be right for even I find it rather a weird thing to say but that is how I feel and that is what I'm saying. I must find it impossible to understand how you guys can think there is no other overriding intelligence in the Universe or whatever God is.
    Google definition:
    Defining "incredulity" the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
    synonyms: disbelief, incredulousness, lack of belief, unbelief, lack of credence, doubt,doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, lack of conviction.

    So I don't know if incredulity is the right word. For I do do believe things.
    Or are you just saying "I am unable to believe that you guys are unbelievers". That is closer to what I was expressing.
    Rather look at "Argument from Personal Incredulity". Basically, it means that because you aren't able to fathom something, that it must then be false to you. You are saying that because YOU can't imagine how we don't believe in gods, that that must mean that we really do believe and are simply lying or hiding from it or something.

    That is a very common fallacy and one you have exhibited regarding multiple things on this forum. It puts you in a very negative light and is responsible for much of the opposition you have encountered around here. You are prone to woolly thinking and badly so, but you are unable to recognise as much and you keep displaying it again and again. No attempt to get you to see this has been successful. You just keep droning on thinking you are being clever and you are pissing a lot of people off.
    They are three people I don't mind pissing off.
    WTH is that supposed to mean? That you love trolling those you feel deserve it? That much is obvious. Would you mind answering the rest of the post though? You are committing an obvious logical fallacy with your way of thinking. Are you OK with that as long as you get to troll a few people? Please grow up for a second and look at the issue soberly. You can't be happy with acting and being perceived as a fool the whole time?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
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  38. #238  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    If until God comes up with this great proof then a question like this is meaningless
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    If until God comes up with this great proof then a question like this is meaningless
    I think this is what in reality we are faced with, an infinite sized Universe and a God who could just easily ignore the whole of existence on Earth.
    How do we attract his attention and how do we make him care?

    I can see how religiosity eventuates in this vain attempt, but that is where I find Jesus gives us just a few clues as to how it can be done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    Cause he made us and he cares about the stuff he makes otherwise he's apathetic and if he's apathetic then he wouldn't have bothered in the first place... Jeeze some questions
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    Cause he made us and he cares about the stuff he makes otherwise he's apathetic and if he's apathetic then he wouldn't have bothered in the first place... Jeeze some questions
    A f'n attitude like that isn't going to get you anywhere IMO.
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  42. #242  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Please everyone stay on the topic.I wanted to ask what will you all conclude.Rest will talk about later.Thank you
    If such a scenario would happen, I could only conclude that there is no explanation.It would be a futile attempt to explain an event with something that cannot be explained.
    You won't believe,correct?
    Just because something can't be readily explained does not mean "god did it" or it's "a miracle"
    In the past schizophrenia couldn't be explained and so it was explained away as Demons. Is that really proof? what you're suggesting is akin to that rational.

    I second that.
    To put it more eloquently:

    "Let us account for all we see by the facts we know. If there are things for which we cannot account, let us wait for light.
    To account for anything by supernatural agencies is, in fact to say that we do not know."

    ~ Robert G. Ingersoll, "Some Mistakes Of Moses: Chapter V" in The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll (1909), Vol. II, p. 53
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    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  43. #243  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    Cause he made us and he cares about the stuff he makes otherwise he's apathetic and if he's apathetic then he wouldn't have bothered in the first place... Jeeze some questions
    A f'n attitude like that isn't going to get you anywhere IMO.
    What attitude? he left a book. come on!!! add up the clues!!!!
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  44. #244  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How do we attract his attention and how do we make him care?
    To answer that would invalidate my atheist stance but I will add a "why bother?"
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    Cause he made us and he cares about the stuff he makes otherwise he's apathetic and if he's apathetic then he wouldn't have bothered in the first place... Jeeze some questions
    A f'n attitude like that isn't going to get you anywhere IMO.
    What attitude? he left a book. come on!!! add up the clues!!!!
    Was it you complaining the Book was full of errors and inconsistencies? I'm too sleepy to check back, but you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
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  46. #246  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ........ you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    One of those inventions is called God worship.
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    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ........ you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    One of those inventions is called God worship.
    I have not ordered that either .... no more excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How do we attract his attention and how do we make him care?
    To answer that would invalidate my atheist stance but I will add a "why bother?"
    That is your wish, mine is different. I care for the Earth and all that is in it, and I have not given up yet. First the flood and now Global Warming!

    [Did you watch the movie Noah?]
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  49. #249  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    Like the one you're using right now to espouse your anti-technology drivel?
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    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    First the flood and now Global Warming!
    Not to mention the return of Voldemort!
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  51. #251  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ........ you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    One of those inventions is called God worship.
    I have not ordered that either .... no more excuses.
    Thanks for the paid holiday, it's Good on a Friday. I say this to all your fellow impressionists.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    You would think God is capable of doing whatever it takes to prove himself. Once he does his great proof then both atheism and theism should disappear forever. There would be no need for a belief or lack of one. To date, despite creating the universe and life, then nearly wiping out the human population, having a son, etc. God has not been able to prove he exists. The only logical conclusion from all that is he either exists and doesn't wish to prove it or he doesn't exist at all, two negatives versus one positive hope. Yet religions insist we worship this guy, making it one of the most ridiculous practices on Earth, IMO.
    Why does God care about us at all, the Universe is infinite.
    Cause he made us and he cares about the stuff he makes otherwise he's apathetic and if he's apathetic then he wouldn't have bothered in the first place... Jeeze some questions
    A f'n attitude like that isn't going to get you anywhere IMO.
    What attitude? he left a book. come on!!! add up the clues!!!!
    Was it you complaining the Book was full of errors and inconsistencies? I'm too sleepy to check back, but you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    HAR HAR.
    I don't want it both ways I'm humoring you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ........ you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    One of those inventions is called God worship.
    I have not ordered that either .... no more excuses.
    what does this even mean?
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  54. #254  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Dear friends,I am an atheist but I think if god would send a sign I will truly believe in him.All the people here are very good in science so I have to ask a question to you all-Situation 1 - What if you asked God for a sign and said you will believe after it comes to you.You asked it at night and you suddenly find your self in the holy site of Islam - Mecca and you were in suppose London.You can take a thing from that place which would prove that you visited there after again coming back to London. Dont laugh ,I am not mad.What will you conclude?.If you deny then why?.Thank you.
    there have been atheists who then believe or follow a religion w/o "signs". is one truly necessary?


    otherwise, it seems appropriate to think that a person experiencing something he/she had not prior believed in, would come to believe after an experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ........ you humans can't have it both ways. Get the meaning out of the book before you destroy yourselves with your so called inventions!
    One of those inventions is called God worship.
    I have not ordered that either .... no more excuses.
    what does this even mean?
    What did Jesus say god wanted from us? Did he say worship? No Jesus didn't. So obey the orders given. No more excuses. - That is what I meant.
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  56. #256  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What did Jesus say god wanted from us? Did he say worship? No Jesus didn't. So obey the orders given. No more excuses. - That is what I meant.
    Yeah, what did Jesus say about that?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What did Jesus say god wanted from us? Did he say worship? No Jesus didn't. So obey the orders given. No more excuses. - That is what I meant.
    Yeah, what did Jesus say about that?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    That was God talking to Satan, OK but what did Jesus say to us.

    What I am thinking is along the lines of Matthew 9:13
    Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
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  58. #258  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    [That was God talking to Satan, OK but what did Jesus say to us.
    Really?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    That was actually Jesus (supposedly) quoting.
    He didn't dispute that worship is required, he reinforced the idea and used it as justification.

    Edit:
    A) why do you differentiate between "Jesus" and "god" - aren't they claimed to be the same "person"?
    B) if you do differentiate why do you (apparently) take Jesus' word on the subject above "god's"? Is Jesus better/ more powerful/ whatever than "god"?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    [That was God talking to Satan, OK but what did Jesus say to us.
    Really?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    That was actually Jesus (supposedly) quoting.
    He didn't dispute that worship is required, he reinforced the idea and used it as justification.
    As above in the edit. I could find many more where Jesus shows me God doesn't want the trappings of worship but a person who has love in his heart.

    Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    He wants the new wine poured into new skins .... half the things Jesus talks about I have no clue what he is on about.
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  60. #260  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I could find many more where Jesus shows me God doesn't want the trappings of worship but a person who has love in his heart.
    Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    Does NOT say worship is not required - it's not even mentioned.
    (Unless you're of the opinion that worship = sacrifices).

    On the other hand...
    Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Luke 5:14.


    As above in the edit.
    So you saw the edit, but decided not to reply to it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I could find many more where Jesus shows me God doesn't want the trappings of worship but a person who has love in his heart.
    Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    Does NOT say worship is not required - it's not even mentioned.
    (Unless you're of the opinion that worship = sacrifices).

    On the other hand...
    Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Luke 5:14.


    As above in the edit.
    So you saw the edit, but decided not to reply to it?
    I hadn't seen your edit, I was referring to mine.

    Jesus asked him to make the right sacrifices not because it was necessary but because that was what was done in their religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    [That was God talking to Satan, OK but what did Jesus say to us.
    Really?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    That was actually Jesus (supposedly) quoting.
    He didn't dispute that worship is required, he reinforced the idea and used it as justification.

    Edit:
    A) why do you differentiate between "Jesus" and "god" - aren't they claimed to be the same "person"?
    B) if you do differentiate why do you (apparently) take Jesus' word on the subject above "god's"? Is Jesus better/ more powerful/ whatever than "god"?
    To me Jesus is Jesus and God is God. I have never mastered anything else yet.

    To me Jesus was a man of history, someone to emulate, so what I can gather from him I try and do too in real life. That is my goal any way, how close I get is hard to tell, but God did turn up as well.
    So I don't think of it as all BS but something that can be attained, and I wouldn't say I know the whole story but I'm just trying to figure it out.
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  63. #263  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    To me Jesus is Jesus and God is God.
    In which case you were completely wrong about the demands for worship.
    There are numerous references in the Bible for "god" stating worship is a requirement.

    To me Jesus was a man of history
    Oh right.
    Jesus is "god" and vice versa.
    Does that mean you're now claiming that "god" is historical?
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  64. #264  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    [That was God talking to Satan, OK but what did Jesus say to us.
    Really?
    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10.
    That was actually Jesus (supposedly) quoting.
    He didn't dispute that worship is required, he reinforced the idea and used it as justification.

    Edit:
    A) why do you differentiate between "Jesus" and "god" - aren't they claimed to be the same "person"?
    B) if you do differentiate why do you (apparently) take Jesus' word on the subject above "god's"? Is Jesus better/ more powerful/ whatever than "god"?
    They aren't the same person. Jesus was a created being. The trinity doctrine was made up later and conflicts with Jesus' teaching. There are things that Paul/Saul wrote that you could interpret as being trinitarian. There are also passages in John you could interpret that way, but those same passages are also some of the very best refutations of those same doctrines.
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  65. #265  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    They aren't the same person.
    You'll note that I did state "claimed to be the same".
    And you should also note that Robbitybob1 subscribes to that doctrine.
    Ergo I'm asking him how he justifies his claim based on what he believes.
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  66. #266  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    They aren't the same person.
    You'll note that I did state "claimed to be the same".
    And you should also note that Robbitybob1 subscribes to that doctrine.
    Ergo I'm asking him how he justifies his claim based on what he believes.
    Oh, okay, cool cool. I'm just pointing out that was a doctrine that was added later. I have quite a bit of confidence Jesus himself would balk at someone claiming he was literally G-d.
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  67. #267  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    To me Jesus is Jesus and God is God.
    In which case you were completely wrong about the demands for worship.
    There are numerous references in the Bible for "god" stating worship is a requirement.

    To me Jesus was a man of history
    Oh right.
    Jesus is "god" and vice versa.
    Does that mean you're now claiming that "god" is historical?
    It was the meaning of worship - is it sacrifices or a contrite heart that pleases God? What is this worship thing? Does he want us to wave our arms in the air or to lift up our fellow man?
    It is then a scientific experiment to to see if there is one more beneficial than the other.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; April 18th, 2014 at 07:57 PM.
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  68. #268  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It was the meaning of worship - is it sacrifices or a contrite heart that pleases God? What is this worship thing? Does he want us to wave our arms in the air or to lift up out fellow man?
    It is then a scientific experiment to to see if there is one more beneficial than the other.
    Oh right.
    When YOU used the word "worship" you meant a particular aspect/ type that YOU had in mind and didn't bother telling anyone else about.
    That way you can continue to make statements that contradict what your "source material" is.
    That's irrational or dishonest. Or both.

    Then again, it's entirely in character for your posts - evade, quibble about what is actually meant (or rather, point out that what YOU had in mind wasn't what was under discussion - but only AFTER extensive probing), divert, avoid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would still say a scientist who believes is a lot more believable than a scientific atheist who says he doesn't.
    Bias much?
    The scientist who believes can still not produce a shred of evidence for the claim - why should we believe them?
    At what point does a 'scientist who believes' stop applying scientific process/methodology? That's what this scientist needs to do in order to be a believer. Being a scientist does not automatically make their beliefs more credible, it's the application and rigour of scientific process that determines truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It was the meaning of worship - is it sacrifices or a contrite heart that pleases God? What is this worship thing? Does he want us to wave our arms in the air or to lift up out fellow man?
    It is then a scientific experiment to to see if there is one more beneficial than the other.
    Oh right.
    When YOU used the word "worship" you meant a particular aspect/ type that YOU had in mind and didn't bother telling anyone else about.
    That way you can continue to make statements that contradict what your "source material" is.
    That's irrational or dishonest. Or both.

    Then again, it's entirely in character for your posts - evade, quibble about what is actually meant (or rather, point out that what YOU had in mind wasn't what was under discussion - but only AFTER extensive probing), divert, avoid.
    To be fair, we are dealing with pretty subjective terms/concepts.
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  71. #271  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    To be fair, we are dealing with pretty subjective terms/concepts.
    Well yeah, but if RB had one singular interpretation in mind he could/ should have made that clear.
    (Regardless, since he's already stated that he considers Jesus and "god" to be the same character then - whatever meaning he had in mind - is wrong, because there's plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that "god" demands sacrifice).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Oh right.
    When YOU used the word "worship" you meant a particular aspect/ type that YOU had in mind and didn't bother telling anyone else about.
    That way you can continue to make statements that contradict what your "source material" is.
    That's irrational or dishonest. Or both.

    Then again, it's entirely in character for your posts - evade, quibble about what is actually meant (or rather, point out that what YOU had in mind wasn't what was under discussion - but only AFTER extensive probing), divert, avoid.
    Oh you can talk, you are forever accusing me and later finding out you are wrong.
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  73. #273  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    To be fair, we are dealing with pretty subjective terms/concepts.
    Well yeah, but if RB had one singular interpretation in mind he could/ should have made that clear.
    (Regardless, since he's already stated that he considers Jesus and "god" to be the same character then - whatever meaning he had in mind - is wrong, because there's plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that "god" demands sacrifice).
    I would have never said "that he (I) considers Jesus and "god" to be the same character".
    Does God need sacrifice or not? It isn't that easy to work it out, but to me Jesus pointed out God wants less sacrifice and more personal application. So that is where I am directing my actions.
    Personal action is a form of sacrifice. So is it sacrifice or not? It certainly isn't as barbaric as animal sacrifice.
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  74. #274  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Oh right.
    When YOU used the word "worship" you meant a particular aspect/ type that YOU had in mind and didn't bother telling anyone else about.
    That way you can continue to make statements that contradict what your "source material" is.
    That's irrational or dishonest. Or both.

    Then again, it's entirely in character for your posts - evade, quibble about what is actually meant (or rather, point out that what YOU had in mind wasn't what was under discussion - but only AFTER extensive probing), divert, avoid.
    Oh you can talk, you are forever accusing me and later finding out you are wrong.
    Hardly
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  75. #275  
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    I've never noticed how similar Robitty and Realitycheck are.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  76. #276  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would have never said "that he (I) considers Jesus and "god" to be the same character".
    Okay.
    I misread.
    Why not?
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.
    God = the word. Jesus = the word. Jesus = god.
    1 Timothy 3:16

    God was made manifest in the flesh.
    Etc...

    Does God need sacrifice or not?
    Stawman.
    I'll reiterate:
    WORSHIP is what you claimed: not "sacrifice".
    Worship != sacrifice.

    Oh you can talk, you are forever accusing me and later finding out you are wrong.
    Yeah? (I DID misread - once - as acknowledged above. But "forever"? Get real).
    People have only to read this thread to see your evasions and avoidances.
    For example your diversion here to "sacrifice" when the word, and concept, in dispute was worship.
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  77. #277  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would have never said "that he (I) considers Jesus and "god" to be the same character".
    Okay.
    I misread.
    Why not?
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.
    God = the word. Jesus = the word. Jesus = god.
    1 Timothy 3:16

    God was made manifest in the flesh.
    Etc...

    Does God need sacrifice or not?
    Stawman.
    I'll reiterate:
    WORSHIP is what you claimed: not "sacrifice".
    Worship != sacrifice.

    Oh you can talk, you are forever accusing me and later finding out you are wrong.
    Yeah? (I DID misread - once - as acknowledged above. But "forever"? Get real).
    People have only to read this thread to see your evasions and avoidances.
    For example your diversion here to "sacrifice" when the word, and concept, in dispute was worship.
    Again accusing me of things like diversion, evasion, avoidance on and on it goes, taking the focus off the real topic. I think you use these aspects in your arguments yourself.
    Whereas all I was trying to make the distinction between personal sacrifice to animal sacrifice.
    You used the word "worship", and maybe you used it first, but have we defined what worship was?
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  78. #278  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Again accusing me of things like diversion, evasion, avoidance on and on it goes, taking the focus off the real topic.
    How about dragging "historicity" into the argument? How about - again - diverting to "sacrifice" as opposed to "worship"? How about your avoidance of the question I asked (eventually got some sort of reply - but not one that actually answered what was asked) about why you dismiss Zeus/ Thor etc, after evasion ("ask me nicely") and a whole day or so (I won't mention claims that you were logging out and couldn't reply, despite the fact that you managed a number of posts more and then STILL remained logged in for some time without replying).

    I think you use these aspects in your arguments yourself.
    Examples please.
    We've all seen just how "clearly" you think.

    Whereas all I was trying to make the distinction between personal sacrifice to animal sacrifice.
    And again.. where was "sacrifice" mentioned? Oh wait... YOU brought it up in a diversion from worship.

    You used the word "worship", and maybe you used it first
    Ah right. I used the word.
    On the other hand I'm fairly sure that I'm not Zinjanthropos: post #246.
    That was where the word was used. And YOU used the same word in your response when you declared, incorrectly that: Did he say worship? No Jesus didn't.
    And then you attempted to support your claim with Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    Which, as I pointed out, doesn't mention worship as such.

    , but have we defined what worship was?
    You see?
    NOW you start to argue about the definition, having failed to support your position even though you've been using (or attempting to use) a particular aspect of "worship".
    What's wrong with the dictionary definition?
    1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

    2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

    3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

    4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
    Not a single mention of "sacrifice"...
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  79. #279  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Again accusing me of things like diversion, evasion, avoidance on and on it goes, taking the focus off the real topic.
    How about dragging "historicity" into the argument? How about - again - diverting to "sacrifice" as opposed to "worship"? How about your avoidance of the question I asked (eventually got some sort of reply - but not one that actually answered what was asked) about why you dismiss Zeus/ Thor etc, after evasion ("ask me nicely") and a whole day or so (I won't mention claims that you were logging out and couldn't reply, despite the fact that you managed a number of posts more and then STILL remained logged in for some time without replying).

    I think you use these aspects in your arguments yourself.
    Examples please.
    We've all seen just how "clearly" you think.

    Whereas all I was trying to make the distinction between personal sacrifice to animal sacrifice.
    And again.. where was "sacrifice" mentioned? Oh wait... YOU brought it up in a diversion from worship.

    You used the word "worship", and maybe you used it first
    Ah right. I used the word.
    On the other hand I'm fairly sure that I'm not Zinjanthropos: post #246.
    That was where the word was used. And YOU used the same word in your response when you declared, incorrectly that: Did he say worship? No Jesus didn't.
    And then you attempted to support your claim with Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    Which, as I pointed out, doesn't mention worship as such.

    , but have we defined what worship was?
    You see?
    NOW you start to argue about the definition, having failed to support your position even though you've been using (or attempting to use) a particular aspect of "worship".
    What's wrong with the dictionary definition?
    1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

    2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

    3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

    4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
    Not a single mention of "sacrifice"...
    Did Jesus use the word worship? Did he? All the rest is true, there are times to sign off and if you check that I'm still logged, maybe I was at the toilet. What are you doing checking on me like that?
    So sacrifices aren't worship? OK that was news to me. Maybe you are right but I doubt it.
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  80. #280  
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    Words like "worship, serve, sacrifice" scare me. To much history is attached to those concepts.

    a) Worship: I am your Master

    b) Serve: Serve the Master and gain His favor

    c) Sacrifice: Serve the Master without regard to self

    That subculture has a name, D/s
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  81. #281  
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    In John chapter 4 Jesus is quoted as saying something about worshiping the Father:
    21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.”26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
    Now Bible scholarship may claim those words are not from Jesus, and really that is not the point in discussion, but what constitutes worship in spirit and truth? It doesn't sound like animal sacrifice or singing arm waving, but does it mean every word spoken to be the truth?
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  82. #282  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Did Jesus use the word worship? Did he?
    I GAVE YOU A QUOTE!
    Post #256.
    Edit: I just noticed that you have found a different quote where Jesus uses the word (along with an unsupported claim that "Bible scholarship may claim those words are not from Jesus") - oh AND another attempt at diversion.
    It is UTTERLY irrelevant what "worship" means for one simple reason: whatever it means Jesus used the word and stated that "god" wants it. (The meaning is irrelevant in the context of this discussion, since it's entirely centred around your claim that Jesus said "god" doesn't want it).

    All the rest is true, there are times to sign off and if you check that I'm still logged, maybe I was at the toilet.
    Right. While making more posts.

    What are you doing checking on me like that?
    Paranoid much?
    You were listed as logged on whenever I cleared "Today's Posts" - it takes you back to the default forum view that just happens to show who's logged in.

    So sacrifices aren't worship? OK that was news to me. Maybe you are right but I doubt it.
    I don't think repetition will do any good, since I've already said this at least twice, but:
    Worship != sacrifice.
    While sacrifice may be an aspect of worship that does NOT mean that sacrifice, in and of itself, constitutes the whole of worship. Or the only possible method of worship.
    Again you're diverting.
    YOU are the one that brought "sacrifice" into it. YOU are the one (apparently) conflating the two as wholly interchangeable. YOU are the one that's trying, and failing, to back out of the corner your ignorance has put you in.
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  83. #283  
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    Oh wait...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Again accusing me of things like diversion, evasion, avoidance on and on it goes, taking the focus off the real topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Partial list of diversions, evasions etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbitybob1
    All the rest [i.e. your only rebuttal here is to quibble - again - about sacrifice vs. worship] is true
    In other words my "accusations" were correct.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  84. #284  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Oh wait...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Again accusing me of things like diversion, evasion, avoidance on and on it goes, taking the focus off the real topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Partial list of diversions, evasions etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbitybob1
    All the rest [i.e. your only rebuttal here is to quibble - again - about sacrifice vs. worship] is true
    In other words my "accusations" were correct.
    Who knows, I haven't got the energy for this sort of debate.
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  85. #285  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Who knows, I haven't got the energy for this sort of debate.
    And another evasion.
    Off to the ignore list until you learn some rationality (or say something [else] particularly stupid).
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  86. #286  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Did Jesus use the word worship? Did he?
    I GAVE YOU A QUOTE!
    Post #256.
    Edit: I just noticed that you have found a different quote where Jesus uses the word (along with an unsupported claim that "Bible scholarship may claim those words are not from Jesus") - oh AND another attempt at diversion.
    It is UTTERLY irrelevant what "worship" means for one simple reason: whatever it means Jesus used the word and stated that "god" wants it. (The meaning is irrelevant in the context of this discussion, since it's entirely centred around your claim that Jesus said "god" doesn't want it).

    All the rest is true, there are times to sign off and if you check that I'm still logged, maybe I was at the toilet.
    Right. While making more posts.

    What are you doing checking on me like that?
    Paranoid much?
    You were listed as logged on whenever I cleared "Today's Posts" - it takes you back to the default forum view that just happens to show who's logged in.

    So sacrifices aren't worship? OK that was news to me. Maybe you are right but I doubt it.
    I don't think repetition will do any good, since I've already said this at least twice, but:
    Worship != sacrifice.
    While sacrifice may be an aspect of worship that does NOT mean that sacrifice, in and of itself, constitutes the whole of worship. Or the only possible method of worship.
    Again you're diverting.
    YOU are the one that brought "sacrifice" into it. YOU are the one (apparently) conflating the two as wholly interchangeable. YOU are the one that's trying, and failing, to back out of the corner your ignorance has put you in.
    Bible scholarship makes the claim that around 80% of the words attributed to Jesus may not be so. Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels. - Los Angeles Times
    So to actually point out which of the remaining 20% are the ones is beyond me just at the moment.

    But where Jesus is speaking to a lady on his own it seems unlikely they are a true quote. Well at least it would be debateable.
    What constitutes the type of worship God wants? If he wants worship, it would be a type of behaviour you'd claim it wasn't worship, so what is it? Is part of it simply telling the honest to God truth?

    So sacrifice could be part of the worship process. Fair enough. But what is the rest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Who knows, I haven't got the energy for this sort of debate.
    And another evasion.
    Off to the ignore list until you learn some rationality (or say something [else] particularly stupid).
    Thanks some peace and quiet for a while!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Off to the ignore list until you learn some rationality (or say something [else] particularly stupid).
    That's a shame, I enjoy reading these posts.
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    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.Lets take the example of a chick coming out.A hard thing like horn develops on its beek .The chick breaks the covering with it.After some days it falls off.It is certain that it came for breaking the shell.Who knew that it required that's thing.Isn't it strange.What is scientific explanation for it.Thanks
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  90. #290  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.Lets take the example of a chick coming out.A hard thing like horn develops on its beek .The chick breaks the covering with it.After some days it falls off.It is certain that it came for breaking the shell.Who knew that it required that's thing.Isn't it strange.What is scientific explanation for it.Thanks
    Which religion?

    Actually the odds for a variety of life on earth and in the universe is very high. When we get to Life there is no precision, only general rules. 90% of all life on earth is now extinct, but every day new varieties and abilities are born in living things on earth. Any species that survives its environment and has offspring evolves, with ever greater sophistication.

    The Evolutionary "process" is really amazing in it's simplicity, but simplicity allows for the greatest variety.
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  91. #291  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.Lets take the example of a chick coming out.A hard thing like horn develops on its beek .The chick breaks the covering with it.After some days it falls off.It is certain that it came for breaking the shell.Who knew that it required that's thing.Isn't it strange.What is scientific explanation for it.Thanks
    It's not precise or well tuned at all....it would be hard to "design" a more hostile place--the vast majority of it is completely unsuitable for life as we know it and distances so vast whatever life there is effectively isolated from even the nearest stars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unununium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Off to the ignore list until you learn some rationality (or say something [else] particularly stupid).
    That's a shame, I enjoy reading these posts.
    I have been getting over a severe case of pneumonia and I am bodily tired and it takes energy to argue effectively against Dywddyr. I would win the argument in the end but he has the energy of the Energizer Man, and I just don't have it at the moment.
    I am not dropping out for fear of losing.
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  93. #293  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.Lets take the example of a chick coming out.A hard thing like horn develops on its beek .The chick breaks the covering with it.After some days it falls off.It is certain that it came for breaking the shell.Who knew that it required that's thing.Isn't it strange.What is scientific explanation for it.Thanks
    It's not precise or well tuned at all....it would be hard to "design" a more hostile place--the vast majority of it is completely unsuitable for life as we know it.
    But we are finding more and more planets and moons which "could" support a life form. A once life forms, it seems to evolve toward greater sophistication.

    Our dear cuttlefish is a prime example of a highly evolved slug.. Video: Kings of Camouflage | Watch NOVA Online | PBS Video
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  94. #294  
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    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.Lets take the example of a chick coming out.A hard thing like horn develops on its beek .The chick breaks the covering with it.After some days it falls off.It is certain that it came for breaking the shell.Who knew that it required that's thing.Isn't it strange.What is scientific explanation for it.Thanks
    Hardly. It was billions of years before earth got enough oxygen in the atmosphere to form an ozone layer. Until that time the whole planet was pretty well lethal to animal life on the surface, UV is not our friend. Though there was plenty of animal life in the oceans of course. But that's not what I'd call an optimal design for reptiles to live on the surface, let alone mammals like us.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Why doesn't life exist there on other planets which can support life forms?The problem I find is why only earth was so that abiogenesis and evolution took place here and not another planets.Tell me what would have happened if Lakhs of dinosaur would have existed still now could we existed to this date?.
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    I know I just have. O knowledge about science and evolution.I have rough idea of evolution .Animal species acquire traits like things which they would require to live in the future.When they give birth the offspring is according to the traits acquired.I am really sorry if it is all nonsense.Please can anyone in simple words with examples can explain to me evolution.Please someone do me a favour.thank you
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  97. #297  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Why doesn't life exist there on other planets which can support life forms?The problem I find is why only earth was so that abiogenesis and evolution took place here and not another planets.
    But we don't know if there is life on other planets.
    Therefore it's wrong to say that Earth is the only one where abiogenesis and evolution occurred.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Why doesn't life exist there on other planets which can support life forms?The problem I find is why only earth was so that abiogenesis and evolution took place here and not another planets.Tell me what would have happened if Lakhs of dinosaur would have existed still now could we existed to this date?.
    This is flawed logic, often pushed by religious circles rather than teaching people how to think about circumstances, particularly when they are surprising.

    If a goose feather lands on your head, is it more reasonable to think that the feather was share coincidence of a flying geese, loose feathers, and breezes until one feather that just happened to land on your head, or should we contrive some elaborate explanation assuming that low chances automatically means some higher purpose or "perfect" circumstance? There's really only one logical answer to these sorts of questions (the first), but our minds have trouble grasping the improbable and analyzing things correctly. It could have been goose crap, or the one dream in thousands that seem to match something that happens during the day. The universe seems unimaginably vast and unimaginable opportunities for something to develop--it's also unimaginably hostile to life as we know it (with our extremely small sample), any one form of intelligence might ask the same question like that of the goose feather--but like the goose feather example, there's would only be one logical answer.

    It's a crap shoot with dice of a billion sides...we happened to "win." Any winner might ask the rather silly question "why me?" simply because they can't wrap their head around the numbers. Unfortunately religion, (and other forms of human persuasion) often exploit these weaknesses in our math thinking.
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  99. #299  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.
    It seems that way because we have evolved to fit the universe. If the universe (or our world) were different, then we would be different to match.

    It is like a puddle saying to itself: "it is amazing that this hole I am in is exactly the right shape for me."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    What causes me to think about religion is sooooo precise universe.Its like something knew that we require it.
    It seems that way because we have evolved to fit the universe. If the universe (or our world) were different, then we would be different to match.

    It is like a puddle saying to itself: "it is amazing that this hole I am in is exactly the right shape for me."
    You've got some STRANGE ideas!
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