Notices
Results 1 to 69 of 69
Like Tree24Likes
  • 2 Post By umbradiago
  • 1 Post By adelady
  • 2 Post By Flick Montana
  • 1 Post By pavlos
  • 2 Post By Trivium
  • 1 Post By pavlos
  • 1 Post By Cogito Ergo Sum
  • 2 Post By Lynx_Fox
  • 1 Post By zinjanthropos
  • 1 Post By adelady
  • 1 Post By adelady
  • 1 Post By grmpysmrf
  • 1 Post By umbradiago
  • 1 Post By grmpysmrf
  • 1 Post By cosmictraveler
  • 1 Post By danhanegan
  • 1 Post By umbradiago
  • 1 Post By Chucknorium
  • 1 Post By ox
  • 1 Post By Beer w/Straw

Thread: What do you think of Pope Francis ?

  1. #1 What do you think of Pope Francis ? 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    I like him, a lot. His simple humility is genuine. He seems very progressive-minded and is a departure from the old tradition. I wish him well. I've waited a long time for the chance to say something positive about the faith I was raised in. Well, near, anyway; I don't think I was ever "in" that flock. The Catholic nuns who taught me for eight long years insured I would never partake of their belief system. I was never abused, much, but I saw a lot of it (I mean corporal punishment, not the other, much worse kind many priests committed). Being taught science by nuns was...weird and hopeless. They didn't seem to know anything at all about the subject. I didn't discover how interesting it was until public high school. And even there, in Biology class, not a single reference to Darwin or to evolution was made. My dad died (I don't use 'passed away') when I was 15. A few months after his death, a black silhouette in a very dark bedroom was seen by me, standing beside my bed as I awoke from what seemed a deep dream state. Lying on my side, my eyes could clearly see an utterly black figure. From that position, I could not discern anything but its midsection, unable to see up any higher. So sure was I of it's realness, I spoke to it saying, "What do you want ?" With that, the apparition vanished. I broke out in a cold sweat wondering what in hell had just happened. I had a vague sense of my father's presence, shortly. So, was I being visited by the ghost of my dad ? As I began to calm down I pondered it. My dad did, as a habit in his life, go around and peek in on his kids a night, true. The figure did not speak, either, and my pop was a man of few words, as well. But, I figured out what had happened and the lesson has served me well. I missed my father very much; his loss was painful to me and to our family. Maybe I'd been dreaming about him, I reasoned, and projected my subconscious wish to be with him onto real space and time. The whole experience lasted but a few seconds and my dream state had been transposed into my bedroom, for a moment. This was the one 'supernatural' experience of my life and it turned out not to be supernatural at all. Others would have interpreted such an occurrence as other-worldly, when it was only human feelings which produced the phantom. I still like to think it was my pop, but I cannot accept that it was. When we're young our parents are god-like. In adulthood, this inherent urge makes us want to find another model; we have come to realize that we love our parents, but not as gods. As people.
    A few months later I read Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape". It opened my eyes wide. Humans are animals ! Of course, and very much a part of the animal kingdom, not divine beings! I could not refute this and wasn't interested in trying. My epiphany came soon after; lying awake in bed I compared my religious teachings with my newly discovered interest in science and began to imagine a universe devoid of a creator. I wondered what would keep the earth form falling; what would support the order of things ? Then I remembered the laws of nature, and realized, God or no God, the earth would still obey the laws of nature, of Newton, and that the earth has orbited our sun for billions of years. In a flash, I saw that all the theology I'd been exposed to was wrong. It was a defining moment in my life.


    pineapple007 and dan hunter like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Me?

    He's a better man than the truly awful Ratzinger.

    And that's it. (And it's not a very high bar anyway.)


    umbradiago likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    As a Pope, I like him.

    As anyone else, he's just another person who subscribes to something I don't understand.

    It's weird that my biggest hope for this Pope was that he would weaken the religious fanaticism that drives people to fight back against gay rights, birth control, non-religious people, etc. I basically wanted a Pope that would bang on the support structure of his own religion.
    grmpysmrf and umbradiago like this.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,789
    Don't know him personally so I can't say much about him.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    305
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    As a Pope, I like him.

    As anyone else, he's just another person who subscribes to something I don't understand.

    It's weird that my biggest hope for this Pope was that he would weaken the religious fanaticism that drives people to fight back against gay rights, birth control, non-religious people, etc. I basically wanted a Pope that would bang on the support structure of his own religion.
    If Catholic social teaching changes they might as well just donate the Vatican to Italy and become atheists.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    What do you think of Pope Francis?
    I don't! However he is clearly delusional in the truest sense of the word. Like all religious people. (if that is harsh, think about the term delusional) There is nothing much else I can say other than it would not be wise to trust him. But as long as you are aware of that, you can treat him like anybody else.
    umbradiago likes this.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    305
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    What do you think of Pope Francis?
    I don't! However he is clearly delusional in the truest sense of the word. Like all religious people. (if that is harsh, think about the term delusional) There is nothing much else I can say other than it would not be wise to trust him. But as long as you are aware of that, you can treat him like anybody else.
    Deluded by compassion??? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
    grmpysmrf and umbradiago like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    What do you think of Pope Francis?
    I don't! However he is clearly delusional in the truest sense of the word. Like all religious people. (if that is harsh, think about the term delusional) There is nothing much else I can say other than it would not be wise to trust him. But as long as you are aware of that, you can treat him like anybody else.
    Deluded by compassion??? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
    Yes. Just like those in the high security insane asylums, suffering from delusion. Nice and docile.
    umbradiago likes this.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    As a Pope, I like him.

    As anyone else, he's just another person who subscribes to something I don't understand.

    It's weird that my biggest hope for this Pope was that he would weaken the religious fanaticism that drives people to fight back against gay rights, birth control, non-religious people, etc. I basically wanted a Pope that would bang on the support structure of his own religion.
    If Catholic social teaching changes they might as well just donate the Vatican to Italy and become atheists.
    Works for me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,507
    I do not have an opinion about the current Pope, as I do not follow his actions nor do I read what he has to say about a topic.

    However, when Pope Francis arrived on the balcony and watched the crowd, he made a good first impression (in my opinion).


    PS: Thank you for sharing your experiences.
    umbradiago likes this.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    When he actually changes policies that are hurting people I'll be a lot more in support. A push for contraceptives and reproductive education in the developed world would be a good place to start.
    grmpysmrf and umbradiago like this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Sophomore Karsus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    194
    I'm suspicious. I get the impression that his appointment was a conscious public relations decision by the church. The previous pope was a hard line, anti-progress conservative with a sketchy reputation. That kind of stuff invites negative scrutiny. Now, this new fellow seems very calm and compassionate and he's very good at saying exactly the right thing. All we're hearing now is how great this guy is and all the public scrutiny seems to have dried up. That doesn't mean all the behind-the-scenes stuff the church does has stopped.

    I haven't been following developments, but has Francis made any important changes yet? Or is the old status quo still intact?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    3,811
    I don't think of him at all really. Just another Pope, dime a dozen.
    umbradiago likes this.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Senior Weterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Canada Saskatchewan
    Posts
    325
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    What do you think of Pope Francis?
    I don't! However he is clearly delusional in the truest sense of the word. Like all religious people. (if that is harsh, think about the term delusional) There is nothing much else I can say other than it would not be wise to trust him. But as long as you are aware of that, you can treat him like anybody else.
    Deluded by compassion??? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
    Yes. Just like those in the high security insane asylums, suffering from delusion. Nice and docile.
    This is a religious question. And, you are an atheist.

    Why post here then? The only thing you did was insult people. Nothing useful was added to the topic from your post. The question was not "Is religion right or wrong?" The question was "What do you think of this pope?"


    You answer the question, but not to answer it. To insult people. If your only intent is to insult people in this forum, then why are you here?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Senior Weterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Canada Saskatchewan
    Posts
    325
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by Karsus View Post
    I'm suspicious. I get the impression that his appointment was a conscious public relations decision by the church. The previous pope was a hard line, anti-progress conservative with a sketchy reputation. That kind of stuff invites negative scrutiny. Now, this new fellow seems very calm and compassionate and he's very good at saying exactly the right thing. All we're hearing now is how great this guy is and all the public scrutiny seems to have dried up. That doesn't mean all the behind-the-scenes stuff the church does has stopped.

    I haven't been following developments, but has Francis made any important changes yet? Or is the old status quo still intact?
    Yes, Pope Francis removed a high level
    Bishop, or something. In Vienna, I think. reason: he'd spent $ 41 million fixing-up his place. That's a good start.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Did you read the article?

    The only reason it's "illegal" to report abuse is because someone made a legal drafting mistake. The song and dance is all based on the fact that the Vatican is sometimes slow to fix up these kinds of obvious clangers.

    They've said they'll fix it. Give them time to make sure that the new legislation they need to draft doesn't make the problem worse or create new legal problems because they're doing it in a rush, then get stuck into them if they get it wrong or they don't have a good explanation of the problems they face.

    (btw. That's a really straaaange website. They don't have an About us button. They don't even have a Donation button. There seems to be no easy way to find out who runs the site. When the article you link to was written by someone titled 666 USA and the opening words of the article are The mother of all abominations on earth ... it looks pretty bad.)
    grmpysmrf likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Senior Weterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Canada Saskatchewan
    Posts
    325
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Did you read the article?

    The only reason it's "illegal" to report abuse is because someone made a legal drafting mistake. The song and dance is all based on the fact that the Vatican is sometimes slow to fix up these kinds of obvious clangers.

    They've said they'll fix it. Give them time to make sure that the new legislation they need to draft doesn't make the problem worse or create new legal problems because they're doing it in a rush, then get stuck into them if they get it wrong or they don't have a good explanation of the problems they face.

    (btw. That's a really straaaange website. They don't have an About us button. They don't even have a Donation button. There seems to be no easy way to find out who runs the site. When the article you link to was written by someone titled 666 USA and the opening words of the article are The mother of all abominations on earth ... it looks pretty bad.)
    oh, sorry.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Sophomore Karsus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Karsus View Post
    I'm suspicious. I get the impression that his appointment was a conscious public relations decision by the church. The previous pope was a hard line, anti-progress conservative with a sketchy reputation. That kind of stuff invites negative scrutiny. Now, this new fellow seems very calm and compassionate and he's very good at saying exactly the right thing. All we're hearing now is how great this guy is and all the public scrutiny seems to have dried up. That doesn't mean all the behind-the-scenes stuff the church does has stopped.

    I haven't been following developments, but has Francis made any important changes yet? Or is the old status quo still intact?
    Yes, Pope Francis removed a high level
    Bishop, or something. In Vienna, I think. reason: he'd spent $ 41 million fixing-up his place. That's a good start.
    Any progress at all is something I suppose. I'm still suspicious, though. :P
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Any progress at all is something I suppose. I'm still suspicious, though.
    I'm not suspicious, just resigned.

    Even if, and that's a hell of a big If, Francis pushes further and better on the "option for the poor" which is pretty standard catholic doctrine anyway, it's pretty hard to push a calcified assembly of self-protective, ideologically committed, authoritarian, conformist bureaucrats to modify their attitudes, let alone their formalised practices. They'd need to be analytical, reflective, maybe a bit creative. I think it's too much to ask of them. He might be able to gradually change the general tone of some of the work they do. I'm pretty sure he'll get the finances in much better shape and introduce a bit of transparency and good audit practices. But they had their biggest chance to change direction back in the early 60s with John 23rd and the 2nd Vatican Council. They did some good stuff, but not enough to withstand the assaults in the following years from Ratzinger running the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the obsessions of John Paul. What they did to the liberation theology proponents in South America was nothing short of criminal. Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Oscar Romero will one day become a saint. How come it's taken so long - there are plenty of less worthy people who got the go ahead despite dying a long time after his assassination.

    Individually, the Vatican staff might be really nice people. And so might the train that's coming towards you be fully loaded with kind and well-intentioned people. But it'll knock you flat and and tear you limb from limb regardless. It's unstoppable.
    umbradiago likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    This is a religious question. And, you are an atheist.
    No! I'm a humanist.
    Atheist is label from a religious perspective, I don't label myself that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Why post here then? The only thing you did was insult people. Nothing useful was added to the topic from your post. The question was not "Is religion right or wrong?" The question was "What do you think of this pope?"
    Of which I gave my opinion. Am I to keep my mouth shut, just because it upsets you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    You answer the question, but not to answer it. To insult people. If your only intent is to insult people in this forum, then why are you here?
    To insult is to treat with disrespect, why should religious delusion deserve respect. What has it done to earn it. You took issue with my opinion, just because you think religion deserves respect, that is your problem not mine.
    I did say if this is harsh think about the term delusional which is a belief maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.
    Stating the facts as they are isn't being insulting it's being truthful.
    How can anybody in their right mind, trust another person who holds an imaginary concept above reality. You only have to take a look at religious history to know how evil it can be and is.
    It's holy books are an incitement to violence.

    Insulting it may appear to you. Truthful is what it is.

    Would you respect and trust a person who held the tooth fairy in the same regard as a god? And it would not surprise me if there is someone out there somewhere who does!
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    This is NOT a "religious question". It's just a regular one. How, or whether, to answer it depends on the individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    What do you think of Pope Francis?
    I don't! However he is clearly delusional in the truest sense of the word. Like all religious people. (if that is harsh, think about the term delusional) There is nothing much else I can say other than it would not be wise to trust him. But as long as you are aware of that, you can treat him like anybody else.
    Deluded by compassion??? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
    Yes. Just like those in the high security insane asylums, suffering from delusion. Nice and docile.
    This is a religious question. And, you are an atheist.

    Why post here then? The only thing you did was insult people. Nothing useful was added to the topic from your post. The question was not "Is religion right or wrong?" The question was "What do you think of this pope?"


    You answer the question, but not to answer it. To insult people. If your only intent is to insult people in this forum, then why are you here?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Any progress at all is something I suppose. I'm still suspicious, though.
    I'm not suspicious, just resigned.

    Even if, and that's a hell of a big If, Francis pushes further and better on the "option for the poor" which is pretty standard catholic doctrine anyway, it's pretty hard to push a calcified assembly of self-protective, ideologically committed, authoritarian, conformist bureaucrats to modify their attitudes, let alone their formalised practices. They'd need to be analytical, reflective, maybe a bit creative. I think it's too much to ask of them. He might be able to gradually change the general tone of some of the work they do. I'm pretty sure he'll get the finances in much better shape and introduce a bit of transparency and good audit practices. But they had their biggest chance to change direction back in the early 60s with John 23rd and the 2nd Vatican Council. They did some good stuff, but not enough to withstand the assaults in the following years from Ratzinger running the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the obsessions of John Paul. What they did to the liberation theology proponents in South America was nothing short of criminal. Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Oscar Romero will one day become a saint. How come it's taken so long - there are plenty of less worthy people who got the go ahead despite dying a long time after his assassination.

    Individually, the Vatican staff might be really nice people. And so might the train that's coming towards you be fully loaded with kind and well-intentioned people. But it'll knock you flat and and tear you limb from limb regardless. It's unstoppable.
    When Catholicism is defended, I often attack it; when it is attacked, I sometimes find myself defending it. Strange, I know. But, I would like to point-out that the church does come-around to admitting false doctrines, occasionally. It declared Galileo free of any wrong-doing................................in 1992. A bit too late to help the great man.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Don't know him personally so I can't say much about him.
    You're entitled to an opinion, still. One need not know him personally. By his acts a person can be judged, to some degree.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,564
    I like that he is seemingly returning the church to a more compassion based belief. getting rid of something like 4 of the more conservative cardinals (?) on his counsel is was a good move.
    umbradiago likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    I'm not really a nut bar, but I like them, a little. I don't mind criticism. You're cool. So am I, now. I'm passionate, that's all, grumpy
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I like that he is seemingly returning the church to a more compassion based belief. getting rid of something like 4 of the more conservative cardinals (?) on his counsel is was a good move.
    grmpysmrf likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,564
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I'm not really a nut bar, but I like them, a little. I don't mind criticism. You're cool. So am I, now. I'm passionate, that's all, grumpy
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I like that he is seemingly returning the church to a more compassion based belief. getting rid of something like 4 of the more conservative cardinals (?) on his counsel is was a good move.
    Nothing wrong with passion, brother. let's just not take it out as anger on our assumed enemies. we all don't have to see eye to eye to work towards the same goals/causes within our environment. I think the left spends so much time dicing each other up because "you're not as vegan as I am," or "you don't listen the left approved music" or whatever meaningless nonsense that keeps us all divided that we never really get to strong because we spend all of our time bickering amongst ourselves.

    For example, I hate all of the God talk that goes on within the democratic party but I tolerate it because I know they are better than republicans as far as my interests and my interests for society are concerned. so i shall vote democratic until repubs are extinguished and then I will hopefully be able to vote for a more viable progressive version of the democratic party (perhaps the green party) until the democrats are extinguished and then I can hopefully vote for a more viable progressive version of the green party and so on and so forth.
    Just how I look at it.
    umbradiago likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,789
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Don't know him personally so I can't say much about him.
    You're entitled to an opinion, still. One need not know him personally. By his acts a person can be judged, to some degree.
    Well anyone that believes in a supernatural being controls the entire universe and humans included must be somewhat ignorant about all of the scientific research done about evolution. Now that does not mean I really care what his beliefs are only that those are his beliefs and not facts. For such an intelligent person that would make me wonder about his education somewhat.
    Last edited by cosmictraveler; March 26th, 2014 at 04:43 PM.
    Genesis likes this.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    282
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Any progress at all is something I suppose. I'm still suspicious, though.
    I'm not suspicious, just resigned.

    Even if, and that's a hell of a big If, Francis pushes further and better on the "option for the poor" which is pretty standard catholic doctrine anyway, it's pretty hard to push a calcified assembly of self-protective, ideologically committed, authoritarian, conformist bureaucrats to modify their attitudes, let alone their formalised practices. They'd need to be analytical, reflective, maybe a bit creative. I think it's too much to ask of them. He might be able to gradually change the general tone of some of the work they do. I'm pretty sure he'll get the finances in much better shape and introduce a bit of transparency and good audit practices. But they had their biggest chance to change direction back in the early 60s with John 23rd and the 2nd Vatican Council. They did some good stuff, but not enough to withstand the assaults in the following years from Ratzinger running the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the obsessions of John Paul. What they did to the liberation theology proponents in South America was nothing short of criminal. Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Oscar Romero will one day become a saint. How come it's taken so long - there are plenty of less worthy people who got the go ahead despite dying a long time after his assassination.

    Individually, the Vatican staff might be really nice people. And so might the train that's coming towards you be fully loaded with kind and well-intentioned people. But it'll knock you flat and and tear you limb from limb regardless. It's unstoppable.
    When Catholicism is defended, I often attack it; when it is attacked, I sometimes find myself defending it. Strange, I know. But, I would like to point-out that the church does come-around to admitting false doctrines, occasionally. It declared Galileo free of any wrong-doing................................in 1992. A bit too late to help the great man.
    For what its worth, my take on the Galileo thing is that Galileo's scientific beliefs did not get him into trouble, it was more simply being an arrogant jerk. Maffeo Barbereni, who became Pope Urban VIII, was initially a supporter of Galileo, until Galileo published a book the Pope viewed as mocking him. In light of our modern views of freedom of speech, the Pope's reaction was extreme, but it was rather lenient by the standards of the time. Other men had been burned at the stake for less. Don't make the mistake of believing it was only the church that had a problem with Galileo, lots of people loathed Galileo, including most of his fellow scientists. He was the sort of egotist that routinely ridiculed any ideas he didn't come up with himself.
    adelady likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Pretty much just like you, grump. I know democrats in office are tools, too. Just less so, I'm sure. And that matters. I used to sort of admire the old guard Republican Party; Ike's. But it's been a long time since a Republican has impressed me.
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I'm not really a nut bar, but I like them, a little. I don't mind criticism. You're cool. So am I, now. I'm passionate, that's all, grumpy
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I like that he is seemingly returning the church to a more compassion based belief. getting rid of something like 4 of the more conservative cardinals (?) on his counsel is was a good move.
    Nothing wrong with passion, brother. let's just not take it out as anger on our assumed enemies. we all don't have to see eye to eye to work towards the same goals/causes within our environment. I think the left spends so much time dicing each other up because "you're not as vegan as I am," or "you don't listen the left approved music" or whatever meaningless nonsense that keeps us all divided that we never really get to strong because we spend all of our time bickering amongst ourselves.

    For example, I hate all of the God talk that goes on within the democratic party but I tolerate it because I know they are better than republicans as far as my interests and my interests for society are concerned. so i shall vote democratic until repubs are extinguished and then I will hopefully be able to vote for a more viable progressive version of the democratic party (perhaps the green party) until the democrats are extinguished and then I can hopefully vote for a more viable progressive version of the green party and so on and so forth.
    Just how I look at it.
    grmpysmrf likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Any progress at all is something I suppose. I'm still suspicious, though.
    I'm not suspicious, just resigned.

    Even if, and that's a hell of a big If, Francis pushes further and better on the "option for the poor" which is pretty standard catholic doctrine anyway, it's pretty hard to push a calcified assembly of self-protective, ideologically committed, authoritarian, conformist bureaucrats to modify their attitudes, let alone their formalised practices. They'd need to be analytical, reflective, maybe a bit creative. I think it's too much to ask of them. He might be able to gradually change the general tone of some of the work they do. I'm pretty sure he'll get the finances in much better shape and introduce a bit of transparency and good audit practices. But they had their biggest chance to change direction back in the early 60s with John 23rd and the 2nd Vatican Council. They did some good stuff, but not enough to withstand the assaults in the following years from Ratzinger running the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the obsessions of John Paul. What they did to the liberation theology proponents in South America was nothing short of criminal. Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Oscar Romero will one day become a saint. How come it's taken so long - there are plenty of less worthy people who got the go ahead despite dying a long time after his assassination.

    Individually, the Vatican staff might be really nice people. And so might the train that's coming towards you be fully loaded with kind and well-intentioned people. But it'll knock you flat and and tear you limb from limb regardless. It's unstoppable.
    When Catholicism is defended, I often attack it; when it is attacked, I sometimes find myself defending it. Strange, I know. But, I would like to point-out that the church does come-around to admitting false doctrines, occasionally. It declared Galileo free of any wrong-doing................................in 1992. A bit too late to help the great man.
    For what its worth, my take on the Galileo thing is that Galileo's scientific beliefs did not get him into trouble, it was more simply being an arrogant jerk. Maffeo Barbereni, who became Pope Urban VIII, was initially a supporter of Galileo, until Galileo published a book the Pope viewed as mocking him. In light of our modern views of freedom of speech, the Pope's reaction was extreme, but it was rather lenient by the standards of the time. Other men had been burned at the stake for less. Don't make the mistake of believing it was only the church that had a problem with Galileo, lots of people loathed Galileo, including most of his fellow scientists. He was the sort of egotist that routinely ridiculed any ideas he didn't come up with himself.
    Agreed. Galileo taunted the Church to some extent, publishing the Dialogues and the Simplicio character, the pope in disguise. And he wasn't in chains, but allowed to see his daughter only occasionally. He tried to defy the Church, and was made to bow to it. At least he lived. Bruno was burned. Galileo's friend had become pope; I'd read a little about it.His arrogance doesn't bother me, though. Great minds don't bother with humility. A waste of time. He was not loved among the scientific community; sometimes that's professional jealousy. Galileo worked closely with Tycho Brahe, Dane. Brilliant guy.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Senior samsmoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    304
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    When he actually changes policies that are hurting people I'll be a lot more in support. A push for contraceptives and reproductive education in the developed world would be a good place to start.
    Yes, and while he's at it he could try and ensure that lots more unborn babies get horribly killed. C'mon, Pope - catch up!
    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,408
    [sarcasm]Sams Moot is right, it is far more entertaining to let those babies be born and grow for a few years so we can watch them slowly starve to death. [/sarcasm]
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Forum Senior samsmoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    304
    In which part of the developed world is this happening?
    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,408
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    In which part of the developed world is this happening?
    OK, I misread L.F.'s comment as developing world instead of developed world.
    I will correct my comment to "... can lock them up in prisons and execute them."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    Genuine. Compassionate. Well-intended, but a bit off-base. The best in a *LONG* time, probably 2,000 years.

    That's all I'll say.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    940
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    158
    I do not have a strong opinion about him, but have some thoughts. I do respect him as Pope, first of all. I like his humility and simpleness. On the other hand, I am not crazy about his modernity and lack of respect for some religious tradition, but am not concerned about his differences on certain Vatican state level traditions.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    940
    This new pope is a far-out dude. He said he would baptize Martians.

    "If … an expedition of Martians arrives and some of them come to us … and if one of them says: 'Me, I want to be baptised!', what would happen?" the pontiff jokingly speculated during Tuesday's morning mass. The church turns no one away, he confirmed, not even extraterrestrials.
    samsmoot likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    At present I like his style but his preachings are so out of date
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,014
    Apart from the out dated sanctimonious church he finds himself in charge of.. He's probably a very nice chap..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    ox
    ox is online now
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    883
    adelady likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,034


    Please don't ban me, I thought it was fitting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPqqGSviZWc
    astromark likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    ox
    ox is online now
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    883
    Ah, but please not Benedict XVI. I'm a catholic myself (nominally) and I thought he was a good guy.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Some interesting comments about pets replacing children.

    He's probably right, as well as much the commenter in the article has to say, but I very much disagree with the inference that it's a bad thing.

    Pope Francis: Pets Can't Replace Children | RealClearPolitics
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,564
    Are those unfortunate folds in his scarf or are the swastikas in the scarf Photoshoped?
    That aside Benedict really puts me off. He's the kind of old man I'm terrified of. I'm probably a jerk because he really just looks evil to me. I'm sure being part of the Hitler Youth didn't help his standing with me either. but even with that out, he really puts me ill-at-ease with his looks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post


    Please don't ban me, I thought it was fitting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPqqGSviZWc
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
    President Dwight Eisenhower
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    This is a religious question. And, you are an atheist.
    No! I'm a humanist.
    Atheist is label from a religious perspective, I don't label myself that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Why post here then? The only thing you did was insult people. Nothing useful was added to the topic from your post. The question was not "Is religion right or wrong?" The question was "What do you think of this pope?"
    Of which I gave my opinion. Am I to keep my mouth shut, just because it upsets you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    You answer the question, but not to answer it. To insult people. If your only intent is to insult people in this forum, then why are you here?
    To insult is to treat with disrespect, why should religious delusion deserve respect. What has it done to earn it. You took issue with my opinion, just because you think religion deserves respect, that is your problem not mine.
    I did say if this is harsh think about the term delusional which is a belief maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.
    Stating the facts as they are isn't being insulting it's being truthful.
    How can anybody in their right mind, trust another person who holds an imaginary concept above reality. You only have to take a look at religious history to know how evil it can be and is.
    It's holy books are an incitement to violence.

    Insulting it may appear to you. Truthful is what it is.

    Would you respect and trust a person who held the tooth fairy in the same regard as a god? And it would not surprise me if there is someone out there somewhere who does!
    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there. I disagree with a large number, probably most, of their fundamental doctrines but I respect that about them.

    As for the current pope, he told the church to chill when it comes to homosexuality and contraceptives, and that not all dogma is created equal and heavily implied that in the scheme of things these are pretty unimportant. So I give him props for that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4,138
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    ....

    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there.
    How did you work that out?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,014
    Align me with Roberttybob1. on this one.. You think the Roman Catholic Church is the Largest Charitable Organisation on Earth.. You are wrong. Best you do some research to show of this exaggeration. I could not agree with this..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Align me with Roberttybob1. on this one.. You think the Roman Catholic Church is the Largest Charitable Organisation on Earth.. You are wrong. Best you do some research to show of this exaggeration. I could not agree with this..
    It depends on your definition of charity, I suppose. From a purely financial position, the Catholic Church gives more money towards food, medical care, assistance, etc. than any other organization. The numbers are hard to get hard data for in other countries than the US as the US Catholic church keeps the best books. We can estimate worldwide, though. Anyway, the Catholic church gives away nearly 5 billion dollars to the poor in America alone. Not to mention how many cases they subsidize in their hospitals and schools, losing money on countless patients and students. This is just a portion of their charities. No one can boast their numbers.

    I would ask who you think is the most charitable organization on Earth. Which organization is it? If you know I am wrong, you must know who is ahead of them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4,138
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Align me with Roberttybob1. on this one.. You think the Roman Catholic Church is the Largest Charitable Organisation on Earth.. You are wrong. Best you do some research to show of this exaggeration. I could not agree with this..
    It depends on your definition of charity, I suppose. From a purely financial position, the Catholic Church gives more money towards food, medical care, assistance, etc. than any other organization. The numbers are hard to get hard data for in other countries than the US as the US Catholic church keeps the best books. We can estimate worldwide, though. Anyway, the Catholic church gives away nearly 5 billion dollars to the poor in America alone. Not to mention how many cases they subsidize in their hospitals and schools, losing money on countless patients and students. This is just a portion of their charities. No one can boast their numbers.

    I would ask who you think is the most charitable organization on Earth. Which organization is it? If you know I am wrong, you must know who is ahead of them.
    It could be the largest charitable organization as for taxation exemption purposes, but is it the most charitable? That is what I was wanting to know.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Align me with Roberttybob1. on this one.. You think the Roman Catholic Church is the Largest Charitable Organisation on Earth.. You are wrong. Best you do some research to show of this exaggeration. I could not agree with this..
    It depends on your definition of charity, I suppose. From a purely financial position, the Catholic Church gives more money towards food, medical care, assistance, etc. than any other organization. The numbers are hard to get hard data for in other countries than the US as the US Catholic church keeps the best books. We can estimate worldwide, though. Anyway, the Catholic church gives away nearly 5 billion dollars to the poor in America alone. Not to mention how many cases they subsidize in their hospitals and schools, losing money on countless patients and students. This is just a portion of their charities. No one can boast their numbers.

    I would ask who you think is the most charitable organization on Earth. Which organization is it? If you know I am wrong, you must know who is ahead of them.
    It could be the largest charitable organization as for taxation exemption purposes, but is it the most charitable? That is what I was wanting to know.
    The Catholic Church pays no taxes regardless, so it's charities are not for that purpose.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,014
    The Red Cross or UNICEF or maybe the U N itself.. do these organizations not fit your pallet.. The are none profit organizations
    running on the charity of others. I do not see the Catholic Church as the grand provider to the poverty stricken of the world.
    Not to suggest for a moment that much good work is not being done by those of the Catholic Church USA..
    Maybe we just see things from different places.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    The Red Cross or UNICEF or maybe the U N itself.. do these organizations not fit your pallet.. The are none profit organizations
    running on the charity of others. I do not see the Catholic Church as the grand provider to the poverty stricken of the world.
    Not to suggest for a moment that much good work is not being done by those of the Catholic Church USA..
    Maybe we just see things from different places.
    It is possible UNICEF or the UN does more good work, I can't say. But from a numbers standpoint, the Catholic Church donates more money and resources. This is a crude metric, I'll admit, but who does more good is subjective enough that it is hard to measure. The Catholic Church spends more on charity than the UN, I'm reasonably sure.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there. I disagree with a large number, probably most, of their fundamental doctrines but I respect that about them.
    They have a had a lot of time to build on it, however their record on the converse outweighs that by miles.
    Anyhow with every charitable thing there comes an agenda. Convert or you don't get this, prey or you don't get fed. etc etc..
    How do you think most people converted, the ones that weren't converted by force where converted by favour.

    Religion is the bane of humanity. It kills literally. Nothing good can nor does come from it.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there. I disagree with a large number, probably most, of their fundamental doctrines but I respect that about them.
    They have a had a lot of time to build on it, however their record on the converse outweighs that by miles.
    Anyhow with every charitable thing there comes an agenda. Convert or you don't get this, prey or you don't get fed. etc etc..
    How do you think most people converted, the ones that weren't converted by force where converted by favour.

    Religion is the bane of humanity. It kills literally. Nothing good can nor does come from it.
    That nothing good can or does come from it is a nonsense statement. I can understand saying that the bad outweighs the good, but absolutely no good can possible come from it? What balderdash.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there. I disagree with a large number, probably most, of their fundamental doctrines but I respect that about them.
    They have a had a lot of time to build on it, however their record on the converse outweighs that by miles.
    Anyhow with every charitable thing there comes an agenda. Convert or you don't get this, prey or you don't get fed. etc etc..
    How do you think most people converted, the ones that weren't converted by force where converted by favour.

    Religion is the bane of humanity. It kills literally. Nothing good can nor does come from it.
    That nothing good can or does come from it is a nonsense statement. I can understand saying that the bad outweighs the good, but absolutely no good can possible come from it? What balderdash.
    Well you're welcome to show what good has come from it. Knock yourself out!
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    The catholic church is by far the most charitable organization on Earth. Nothing even comes close to unseating it there. I disagree with a large number, probably most, of their fundamental doctrines but I respect that about them.
    They have a had a lot of time to build on it, however their record on the converse outweighs that by miles.
    Anyhow with every charitable thing there comes an agenda. Convert or you don't get this, prey or you don't get fed. etc etc..
    How do you think most people converted, the ones that weren't converted by force where converted by favour.

    Religion is the bane of humanity. It kills literally. Nothing good can nor does come from it.
    That nothing good can or does come from it is a nonsense statement. I can understand saying that the bad outweighs the good, but absolutely no good can possible come from it? What balderdash.
    Well you're welcome to show what good has come from it. Knock yourself out!
    That no compassionate deed has ever been performed by someone because of their religious values, that no religion has ever inspired great works of art, that religion has never been a source of comfort to a dying person or their relatives, that there has never been any legitimate philosophical/technological/scientific idea that had its seeds planted in religious teachings, etc. are all nonsense statements and follow directly from the statement that nothing good has ever come from religion at all.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,771
    Unfortunately it was the Catholic Church that was responsible in large measure for the collapse of the USSR.

    That was a good that came from that church ,like it or not.

    The Pope happened to be Polish and used this fact to mobilize the Polish people.

    As Stalin I think said "how many divisions has the Pope of Rome ?" .It was too many for his successors.

    Not that I am supporting religious organisations but it pays to know your enemy.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Well you're welcome to show what good has come from it. Knock yourself out!
    That no compassionate deed has ever been performed by someone because of their religious values
    We could never know that! As we could never know their true agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that no religion has ever inspired great works of art
    People create and they create about the things they are passionate about or indoctrinated into. but I wouldn't claim that was good. Some of the imaged depict violent acts, it is clear where the inspiration is coming from isn't it. If those artist had, had cameras they would be filming and photographing the violence that is religion.
    You're noticing the rights things, just shift the point of view you're looking at it from.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that religion has never been a source of comfort to a dying person or their relatives
    We cant know for sure whether it was or wasn't but as the people where indoctrinated into the religion then it would be based on bias
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that there has never been any legitimate philosophical/technological/scientific idea that had its seeds planted in religious teachings, etc.
    If religion wasn't there, science would have still progressed, and much further. Throughout its history religion has retarded science.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    are all nonsense statements
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    and follow directly from the statement that nothing good has ever come from religion at all.
    As said you are welcome to show what good has come from it.

    So basically with or without religion all those things would have still happened, religion is simply not needed.



    “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
    Steven Weinberg
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Unfortunately it was the Catholic Church that was responsible in large measure for the collapse of the USSR.
    Some how I think you are talking absolute nonsense, could you site your sources, thank you.

    And to say it was a good, is foolish as it was Christianity that started communism, read the book of Acts, it is a communist manifesto.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,771
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Unfortunately it was the Catholic Church that was responsible in large measure for the collapse of the USSR.
    Some how I think you are talking absolute nonsense, could you site your sources, thank you.

    And to say it was a good, is foolish as it was Christianity that started communism, read the book of Acts, it is a communist manifesto.
    Sources? It is common knowledge that "The Pope happened to be Polish and used this fact to mobilize the Polish people". You need a "source" to substantiate that?

    I don't give a monkey's who "created communism" .It doesn't mean that whoever contributed to its demise didn't perform a service .

    Your blanket condemnation does no one a service (even if I would be attracted to that "view" we do have to be honest and recognize that there are good men and women in all occupations )

    Can't think why I would want to "read the book of Acts". I am happy to remain ignorant.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Well you're welcome to show what good has come from it. Knock yourself out!
    That no compassionate deed has ever been performed by someone because of their religious values
    We could never know that! As we could never know their true agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that no religion has ever inspired great works of art
    People create and they create about the things they are passionate about or indoctrinated into. but I wouldn't claim that was good. Some of the imaged depict violent acts, it is clear where the inspiration is coming from isn't it. If those artist had, had cameras they would be filming and photographing the violence that is religion.
    You're noticing the rights things, just shift the point of view you're looking at it from.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that religion has never been a source of comfort to a dying person or their relatives
    We cant know for sure whether it was or wasn't but as the people where indoctrinated into the religion then it would be based on bias
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    that there has never been any legitimate philosophical/technological/scientific idea that had its seeds planted in religious teachings, etc.
    If religion wasn't there, science would have still progressed, and much further. Throughout its history religion has retarded science.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    are all nonsense statements
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    and follow directly from the statement that nothing good has ever come from religion at all.
    As said you are welcome to show what good has come from it.

    So basically with or without religion all those things would have still happened, religion is simply not needed.



    “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
    Steven Weinberg
    Sure, good things and evil things would still happen. But it's very silly to think that every single good thing that has ever been inspired by religion would have happened in a world without religion.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,014
    My fellow contributors have been telling porkies.. ( lies ) That the Catholic Church is the worlds largest Charity, Would depend on you definitions of charity.
    That the Catholic Church was instrumental in the dismantling of the USSR... Where did you get that ?
    A more interesting question; Not what I think of the Pope., but what does he think of me ?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    My fellow contributors have been telling porkies.. ( lies ) That the Catholic Church is the worlds largest Charity, Would depend on you definitions of charity.
    That the Catholic Church was instrumental in the dismantling of the USSR... Where did you get that ?
    A more interesting question; Not what I think of the Pope., but what does he think of me ?
    Don't say I've been telling lies. I said the Catholic Church is the world's largest charity, then I gave my definition of that charity, (who gives the most money and resources.) This was a true statement, and I defined my terms. That you have a different definition of charity does not make my statement dishonest in any way.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Unfortunately it was the Catholic Church that was responsible in large measure for the collapse of the USSR.
    Some how I think you are talking absolute nonsense, could you site your sources, thank you.

    And to say it was a good, is foolish as it was Christianity that started communism, read the book of Acts, it is a communist manifesto.
    Sources? It is common knowledge
    To whom!

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Sure, good things and evil things would still happen. But it's very silly to think that every single good thing that has ever been inspired by religion would have happened in a world without religion.
    Yes that would be silly. if it was inspired by religion, then religion would be it's basis, wouldn't it
    What I said was "People create and they create about the things they are passionate about or indoctrinated into. But I wouldn't claim that was good.
    Religion is clearly not needed, things will happen regardless.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    I'd like to see a source for the Catholic church as the largest charity. In most list I could find of charity organizations etc, those Catholic didn't even make the top ten.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,034
    I'd think the largest charity would probably be the UN. But of course, it runs on donations so to speak...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,771
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    My fellow contributors have been telling porkies.. ( lies ).....................
    ......................
    That the Catholic Church was instrumental in the dismantling of the USSR... Where did you get that ?
    I explained that in my post #59 .It is very tedious.I am not going to expand on it.You are welcome to agree or disagree.The same applies to Pavlos.
    Between the two of you you have called me foolish and a liar . I won't reply to either of your posts from now on.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: February 4th, 2014, 09:55 PM
  2. why did pope quit???
    By blackscorp in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: November 18th, 2013, 10:03 PM
  3. The pope
    By verzen in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: May 13th, 2009, 05:59 AM
  4. Evil Pope!
    By Hanuka in forum Scientific Study of Religion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: October 4th, 2008, 09:30 AM
  5. Francis Bacon in The News: 7 Reece Mews
    By RonPrice in forum In the News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: August 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •