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Thread: Catholic Bullying

  1. #1 Catholic Bullying 
    Forum Senior Weterman's Avatar
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    Hello. My school is a catholic school. I am Christain, but not Catholic.

    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony. I believe this is bullying. Why?

    Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class? (It should be called Catholic Ethics class) Because you are not Catholic. It would be odd that a Catholic would fail this class. The school knows this. So if you do not have the same religion as the school, you may not pass. If you don't pass, you cannot go into the graduation ceremony. In other words, what the school is saying, is you do not have the same religion as us, so you are excluded. You are different, so you can't join us.

    Here is an example of bullying:

    A boy with a twitching eye asks some kids to play soccer. The kids say no, and they laugh at the twitching eye.

    Short version: A boy isn't allowed to play soccer because his eye twitches.

    And my school:

    A student believes in a different god. Because of this, he struggles with Christain Ethics class. He fails this class. It is time to graduate. The student isn't allowed into the ceremony because of his mark in the class.

    Short version: Student isn't allowed to have maybe the most important ceremony in his life, because of his religion.




    How is the second example any less wrong than the first one?



    Also, the class is not a good class. I have been asked to sin in questions I had to answer. I put as little as I could into these questions, and I get a bad mark because of it. Answering the questions are against my religion.

    Also, we are asked to write allot about ourselves in this class. What the teacher doesn't understand, is that some people don't want to give their life story to someone they don't even know.



    My point is, to attend the most important ceremony of my life, I must pass this class. To pass this class, I must sin against my religion, and give out my life story.

    In short:

    I must sin against my religion to attend the most important ceremony in my life.


    Also, there have been two gay kids in my school. They are gone now. One, I'm not sure what happened, and I think the other got expelled. Not sure why, he didn't do anything wrong that I saw.


     

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  3. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony.
    Seems reasonable. You fail courses, you can't graduate. (Should be true of all courses, not just an ethics course.)

    Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class? (It should be called Catholic Ethics class) Because you are not Catholic. It would be odd that a Catholic would fail this class. The school knows this. So if you do not have the same religion as the school, you may not pass. If you don't pass, you cannot go into the graduation ceremony. In other words, what the school is saying, is you do not have the same religion as us, so you are excluded. You are different, so you can't join us.
    I went to a Catholic all boys school. We had four years of Scripture, Modern Christianity (basically a Christian ethics class) comparative religion etc. All the non-Catholics I know (including two Hindus) passed it and graduated. A few other kids I knew (I assume they were Christian) failed courses and didn't graduate. Seems fair.
    A student believes in a different god. Because of this, he struggles with Christain Ethics class. He fails this class. It is time to graduate. The student isn't allowed into the ceremony because of his mark in the class.
    Or:

    Student doesn't believe in America. Thus he fails American history. He is not allowed to graduate. Bullying or not?
    Student doesn't believe in science. Thus he fails science. He is not allowed to graduate. Bullying or not?

    I must sin against my religion to attend the most important ceremony in my life.
    Your choice.


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony.

    I must sin against my religion to attend the most important ceremony in my life.
    Your choice.
    Yes, it is still bullying.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Yes, it is still bullying.
    You went to a Catholic school and were then offended you had to take a course containing Catholic material?

    Do you buy boxes of ice cream then sue the company when you find out the boxes contain something that might make you fat? Or is that just another example of bullying?
     

  6. #5  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    billvon, I regret that the forum software only allows me to award you a single like for your post. You have nailed the issue with a simple yet elegant analogy. I would warn you though, having the temerity to challenge weterman's belief system is probably a form of bullying.
     

  7. #6  
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    I think I found your problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    My school is a catholic school. I am ... not Catholic.
    Let me know if I can help with anything else.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
     

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    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
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    You don't have to believe the stuff, just learn about what those poor misguided fools believe.

    You do realise you can learn stuff without having to believe it, right?
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    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    I'm assuming this is a private school? If so, be happy for the opportunity, and quit complaining. I'd kill to get into a school like that (As an atheist) for college opportunities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Yes, it is still bullying.
    You went to a Catholic school and were then offended you had to take a course containing Catholic material?

    Do you buy boxes of ice cream then sue the company when you find out the boxes contain something that might make you fat? Or is that just another example of bullying?
    There are only two schools in my city. 50% chance I will go to the catholic one.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    You don't have to believe the stuff, just learn about what those poor misguided fools believe.

    You do realise you can learn stuff without having to believe it, right?
    The questions that I have to answer are the problem. I have to sin, in order to pass. I'm thinking of dropping out of catholic class, cause my mark in it is bad anyways.

    And wouldn't you think it would be hard for a person of another religion to answer the questions, confuse it with their religion?

    My mark in this class is bad, because the questions go against my religion.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I'm assuming this is a private school? If so, be happy for the opportunity, and quit complaining. I'd kill to get into a school like that (As an atheist) for college opportunities.
    It is public
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    There are only two schools in my city. 50% chance I will go to the catholic one.
    Did you flip a coin, or why didn't you go to public school?
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    There are only two schools in my city. 50% chance I will go to the catholic one.
    Did you flip a coin, or why didn't you go to public school?
    Most of my friends went to the catholic school. And I didn't know that the school would be this discriminative against other religions.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    The questions that I have to answer are the problem. I have to sin, in order to pass.
    And a good Catholic has to sin to accurately answer the question "how old is the Earth?" or "how does life evolve?" If he can do it so can you.

    And wouldn't you think it would be hard for a person of another religion to answer the questions, confuse it with their religion?
    Then they are idiots. I had no trouble answering questions on Buddhism, atheism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Islam etc when I was taking comparative religion. If they cannot learn then not graduating them may well be a good call, so we don't graduate people who cannot learn.

    Most of my friends went to the catholic school.
    So you chose to go to a school to be with your friends. Sounds like you made your choice; live with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    The questions that I have to answer are the problem. I have to sin, in order to pass.
    And a good Catholic has to sin to accurately answer the question "how old is the Earth?" or "how does life evolve?" If he can do it so can you.

    And wouldn't you think it would be hard for a person of another religion to answer the questions, confuse it with their religion?
    Then they are idiots. I had no trouble answering questions on Buddhism, atheism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Islam etc when I was taking comparative religion. If they cannot learn then not graduating them may well be a good call, so we don't graduate people who cannot learn.

    Most of my friends went to the catholic school.
    So you chose to go to a school to be with your friends. Sounds like you made your choice; live with it.
    What is comparative religion? Do you learn about other religions? Or is the class like sunday school, where you learn "this religion is right"?
     

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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    What sin(s) are your required to commit?
     

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    How can learning about another religion make you get it confused with your own religion? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard all week.
     

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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Wet..... In a few years you'll meet the girl/boy of your dreams and fall madly in love. Sooner or later you'll both want to get married. One problem, the mate belongs to a different religion. Since her/his folks are exerting the most pressure, paying the shot or holding the shotgun, the marriage is going to take place in your bride/groom's parents" church. Would you go through with it? I think you would because in the end you're going to realize that it's all ceremony, it doesn't mean a thing, you love each other and that's that. Well the same principle applies to going to Christian Ethics classes, you could have pretended to be a Catholic or converted to Catholicism from Day 1 (you're in their school for Christ sakes) and just friggin' went and passed the stupid course, because in the big game of life it means diddley-squat when all is said and done.

    By your words, if I'm reading you correctly, I don't think you ever put too much stock into Christian Ethics Classes. So you shouldn't be bitchin' about it now that it's too late.
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    I have no idea how answering a question in a Catholic ethics class could require you to sin. I really don't.

    You might have to be able to recite the credo but that's just like learning poetry, or a song. Just because it contains the words "I believe" it isn't asking you to believe. Most importantly it isn't asking you to lie and to say that you believe it or feel it. (Unless there are far more people in the world named Peggy Sue than I've ever heard of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb7KyPSbFqo . I've never known anyone with that name but I've been in crowds where hundreds of us, women and all, were singing I love you, Peggy Sue ... and all the rest of it) I must have sung or recited the credo in both English and Latin thousands of times in my life - if you include all the rehearsals and private practice as well as the performances. And I never believed a word of it.

    You have to show that you know stuff. You may have to know what the requirements are for a baptism or a confirmation or for reconciliation or for who can and can't, must or mustn't, perform certain ceremonies. Especially you have to know the form of words required for those Catholic rituals and statements of belief. You probably have to know a whole lot of other stuff that's also entirely irrelevant to a non-Catholic.

    But nobody's asking you to believe it. Nobody's asking you to say that you believe it. Knowing it is all that's required.
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    What is comparative religion? Do you learn about other religions? Or is the class like sunday school, where you learn "this religion is right"?
    A bit of both. "Here's who Martin Luther was, and here's why he nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Church in Wittenberg. And here's why he was wrong."
     

  22. #21  
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    I dont think theres any god (except Thor the god of thunder) and think most religion are archaic aberations from darker times when humans were even more ignorant than most are now, but Ill nonetheless share thoughts...


    "Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class?"
    In theory you should have the material(texts) you are supposed to learn, thats the point of a school(unless they are relying on divine intervention) if you study you should pass.


    "A student believes in a different god."
    Im not all that versed in relgion, but I thought chrisitans believed in the same God.


    " I have been asked to sin in questions I had to answer."
    What?
    "Answering the questions are against my religion. "
    What???


    What is the Question? (not the answer, just the Question)


    Being anti-religous/anti-magic/anti-mystical myself, Imo something being against your religion/magical powers/mystical-source/Fen-shwei-orientation/astrological-ascendent should not be an excuse not to do it where as other people with different religion/magical powers/mystical-source/Fen-shwei-orientation/astrological-ascendent would be oblidged to. It should either be mandatory for all or not mandatory for all, but thats just my opinion.


    However, regardless of religious, magical, mythical, mystical, superstitious or astrological reasons, your personal information is personal and none of their business, you should be asked about knowledge they are allegedly teaching you, like if they say "Lepraunchans have a pot of gold", they should ask you "what type of metal is in the Leprechauns pot?", not "tell us how you saw the Leprechauns the first time you saw a rainbow" etc.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    What sin(s) are your required to commit?
    Well, just recently, Pride. The question was "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied".
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I dont think theres any god (except Thor the god of thunder) and think most religion are archaic aberations from darker times when humans were even more ignorant than most are now, but Ill nonetheless share thoughts...


    "Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class?"
    In theory you should have the material(texts) you are supposed to learn, thats the point of a school(unless they are relying on divine intervention) if you study you should pass.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Wet..... In a few years you'll meet the girl/boy of your dreams and fall madly in love. Sooner or later you'll both want to get married. One problem, the mate belongs to a different religion. Since her/his folks are exerting the most pressure, paying the shot or holding the shotgun, the marriage is going to take place in your bride/groom's parents" church. Would you go through with it? I think you would because in the end you're going to realize that it's all ceremony, it doesn't mean a thing, you love each other and that's that. Well the same principle applies to going to Christian Ethics classes, you could have pretended to be a Catholic or converted to Catholicism from Day 1 (you're in their school for Christ sakes) and just friggin' went and passed the stupid course, because in the big game of life it means diddley-squat when all is said and done.

    By your words, if I'm reading you correctly, I don't think you ever put too much stock into Christian Ethics Classes. So you shouldn't be bitchin' about it now that it's too late.
    Yes, I would just suck it up and go through the ceremony. But this class is different. I have to be in it for a few months, giving personal information, sinning, etc, to go through this. I am not an atheist, it is not as easy as it seems to just lie in my answers.
     

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    "Well, just recently, Pride. The question was "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied"."
    Imo, Keep the number of Child protection or social services handy, not that you need to call them now, but you should have a number in case you want to talk or ask questions.

    Standing up for someone is not a sin or bad, telling about it is not a sin or bad, its not pride either its just providing an account, and you obviously arent flaunting exploits of bravado without being asked so its not pride.
    The teachings(indoctrination) about sinning appears to be very unhealthy and extremely extremist and/or Your interpretation appears to be exaggerated to the Nth degree.

    (As a sidenote, if they ask "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied", it can not be a wrong answer to say "I have not been in a situation where I could/have stood up for someone being bullied"
    If that is true and given a bad grade that school needs to be examined by which ever authority gives it public funding.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Well, just recently, Pride. The question was "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied"."
    Imo, Keep the number of Child protection or social services handy, not that you need to call them now, but you should have a number in case you want to talk or ask questions.

    Standing up for someone is not a sin or bad, telling about it is not a sin or bad, its not pride either its just providing an account, and you obviously arent flaunting exploits of bravado without being asked so its not pride.
    Your interpretation appears to be exaggerated to the Nth degree and/or the teachings(indoctrination) of sinning is unhealthy and extremist
    Well, I guess unless the only reason I answer is to brag about it, but it really does feel like I'm doing that when I answer. And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this. It says you should hide the good deeds you do, and it is a sin to express them. I don't remember the book, I read it a while a go.

    But still, I don't agree with allot of things taught in this class, and I feel like being forced to go through this class is trying to convert me. But there are allot of questions, that are asked in a way, that if you want to answer it correctly, you have to say "God is real Catholic is right"
     

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    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    Come on now. You're basically saying that to feed back to your teacher/school stuff you've been taught that you personally don't believe is some kind of sin. That to be true to yourself you have be "honest" or "authentic" or some such thing related to your deepest sense of identity.

    All you're being asked to do is to show that you understand what beliefs you do not adhere to.

    If someone were to put a question into the form of "If you're a christian why are you not a Catholic?" a sensible answer would run along the lines of I disagree with the doctrine of this, and the practice of that, and the belief that all of us are saints, aaaand a very long list of other stuff. You'd have to show that you know what you're talking about. As it happens, the questions in tests on catechism for example are more likely to run along the lines of "Why can divorced people not receive communion?" or something. All you have to do is to write the correct answer and then write - but I don't believe that - in tiny, invisible fairy writing after every single answer.

    It's Not About You. It's about what you've learned from what you've been taught.
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    " And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this."
    Sometimes I have to pinch myself when I think were in the 21st century and I read things like that.

    But unless you become a monk secluded in a monastery, what are you going to do in real life, when you have presentations to give to clients or board members? If you go in biology and find a cure for cancer will you not present it thereby not saving the lives of millions of people because that can be misinterpreted as pride? You cant be happy and a productive member of society if you have sin-anxiety like that, (I almost sound sermon-y, so I point that is not the absolute-truth but my limited-observation-based opinion.)

    "That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied."
    Really? If I go to Leprechaun school and I learn about Leprauchauns I dont see how thats... hum, gays you say? It reminds me of the report in the Daily Show about a man who moved into the Gay Village of San Fransisco and then complained there were openly gay people around.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    Come on now. You're basically saying that to feed back to your teacher/school stuff you've been taught that you personally don't believe is some kind of sin. That to be true to yourself you have be "honest" or "authentic" or some such thing related to your deepest sense of identity.

    All you're being asked to do is to show that you understand what beliefs you do not adhere to.

    If someone were to put a question into the form of "If you're a christian why are you not a Catholic?" a sensible answer would run along the lines of I disagree with the doctrine of this, and the practice of that, and the belief that all of us are saints, aaaand a very long list of other stuff. You'd have to show that you know what you're talking about. As it happens, the questions in tests on catechism for example are more likely to run along the lines of "Why can divorced people not receive communion?" or something. All you have to do is to write the correct answer and then write - but I don't believe that - in tiny, invisible fairy writing after every single answer.

    It's Not About You. It's about what you've learned from what you've been taught.
    I see, but that is just repeating what the guy before said.

    A guy can be bullied, for being gay. So should that guy hide being gay, so he has friends? Maybe.

    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion. So should he hide it and lie about it? Maybe.

    But that does not change the fact, that the bully is there.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    " And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this."
    Sometimes I have to pinch myself when I think were in the 21st century and I read things like that.

    But unless you become a monk secluded in a monastery, what are you going to do in real life, when you have presentations to give to clients or board members? If you go in biology and find a cure for cancer will you not present it thereby not saving the lives of millions of people because that can be misinterpreted as pride? You cant be happy and a productive member of society if you have sin-anxiety like that, (I almost sound sermon-y, so I point that is not the absolute-truth but my limited-observation-based opinion.)

    "That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied."
    Really? If I go to Leprechaun school and I learn about Leprauchauns I dont see how thats... hum, gays you say? It reminds me of the report in the Daily Show about a man who moved into the Gay Village of San Fransisco and then complained there were openly gay people around.
    If you find a cure for cancer, and you hand it out, you shouldn't throw your name everywhere, saying that you found the cure.

    Doing a good thing is different than bragging about it. If a guy finds a cure for cancer, he should release it. But not brag about it. If someone finds out, then he finds out. But you don't need to brag about it like you're the number one person.
     

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    because of his religion
    Because of his religion or, because of his very exaggerated fundamentalist interpretation of his potentially extremist fundamentalist religion?
     

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    If you find a cure for cancer, and you hand it out, you shouldn't throw your name everywhere, saying that you found the cure.

    I agree. You need to nuance your evaluation of throwing your name around, in other words I agree/understand with the intent but think that too much sin-anxiety may cause an exagetated evaluation of what constitutes an over the top name throwing as opposed to a non sinful reference-name-giving-without-excessive-pride-in-ashow-off-sense.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    That's stupid. To extend your analogy, a gay person is being "bullied" if they have to learn about human reproduction because they aren't going to reproduce that way and so it's "against their sexuality."

    And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this. It says you should hide the good deeds you do, and it is a sin to express them. I don't remember the book, I read it a while a go.
    ^^THIS is why you might end up not graduating. Not because you have the wrong beliefs, but you can't even be bothered to learn what you are taught.

    A guy can be bullied, for being gay. So should that guy hide being gay, so he has friends?
    No. He should be honest about it. But if he refuses to learn human biology because it is "against his sexuality" he might flunk biology and not graduate. His fault. Not bullying.
    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion. So should he hide it and lie about it?
    No. He should be honest about it. But if he refuses to learn religious history because it is "against his religion" he might flunk religion and not graduate. His fault. Not bullying.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I dont think theres any god (except Thor the god of thunder) and think most religion are archaic aberations from darker times when humans were even more ignorant than most are now, but Ill nonetheless share thoughts...


    "Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class?"
    In theory you should have the material(texts) you are supposed to learn, thats the point of a school(unless they are relying on divine intervention) if you study you should pass.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    I did that for 28 years before coming out. your analogy is very flawed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    You don't have to believe the stuff, just learn about what those poor misguided fools believe.You do realise you can learn stuff without having to believe it, right?
    True. I learned calculus and I'm pretty sure it's witchcraft.
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    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion.
    Honestly, weterman, they're not throwing Catholic dogma, catechism, ritual or ethics AT you.

    They're teaching knowledge of these things TO you.

    You're a student. It's your role to learn what's taught and show by your assignments and tests that you've understood what's been taught.

    All sorts of schools and school systems have particular requirements to qualify for certain certificates or ceremonies. It's not unusual for a school affiliated with a religion to have a way of demonstrating that all students have been educated to understand that religion even though not all of them are members.

    I remember people I went to school with being unhappy that they wouldn't get their university entry into a science based course if they didn't pass English - which at that time had an entirely literature-poetry-drama curriculum at the senior school level. They did it anyway.

    You can grumble about it, but you should put your head down anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    The questions that I have to answer are the problem. I have to sin, in order to pass.
    How can answering a question be a sin?

    Even an orthodox Jew wouldn't have a problem answering the question: what meat comes from a pig?

    My mark in this class is bad, because the questions go against my religion.
    I don't think that is the reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Standing up for someone is not a sin or bad, telling about it is not a sin or bad, its not pride either its just providing an account, and you obviously arent flaunting exploits of bravado without being asked so its not pride.
    Well, I guess unless the only reason I answer is to brag about it
    And that is obviously not the reason. You are providing the answer because you want to pass the course.

    You are proud enough of being different to come here and boast about how hard you find it at your school, and yet you refused to answer a simple factual question.

    And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this. It says you should hide the good deeds you do, and it is a sin to express them. I don't remember the book, I read it a while a go.
    Sermon on the Mount? Quite good advice (even the Bible gets things right occasionally): give money to charity, for example, because it is the right thing to do, not so that people will think better of you. It doesn't say you should lie and deny it if someone asks if you have given to charity.

    But still, I don't agree with allot of things taught in this class
    You don't have to.

    You have choices (you god gave you free will, remember). Drop the class. Go to another school. Just get on and answer the damn questions. Stop pretending to be a victim (that is probably a sin in some branch of Xtianity.)
    Last edited by Strange; March 13th, 2014 at 10:05 AM.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion.
    It is not because of his religion. It is because he is too dumb to answer some simple questions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Doing a good thing is different than bragging about it. If a guy finds a cure for cancer, he should release it. But not brag about it. If someone finds out, then he finds out. But you don't need to brag about it like you're the number one person.
    And there you are on the verge of talking sense. If someone makes that kind of discovery it would be wrong to keep it quiet; they should obviously announce it far and wide. But that announcement doesn't have to say, "I am a total genius and the saviour of mankind; bow down before me because I have done something no fool before me could do."

    Similarly, answering the question about standing up for someone can be done in a modest way, "I just happened to be there, I did what I could, it kinda turned out OK, I feel uncomfortable talking about it, ..."

    Or, you could brag about it, "If I hadn't been there to save the poor sucker he would be dead now. And its a good job it was me; no one else would have handled it so well. He is suitably grateful, and has admitted he will be in debt to me for the rest of his life. Quite right too. But the reward could have been bigger. I think I deserve at least twice as much. But I made sure I got on the front page of the newspaper. And I think it is a good job I have another chance to tell more people about it. Although you should have heard about it already; it was really important..."

    That version is a lot more fun to write, so I would go with that.

    Or you could just carry on with your pathetic whining.

    Your choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    The questions that I have to answer are the problem. I have to sin, in order to pass.
    And a good Catholic has to sin to accurately answer the question "how old is the Earth?" or "how does life evolve?" If he can do it so can you.

    And wouldn't you think it would be hard for a person of another religion to answer the questions, confuse it with their religion?
    Then they are idiots. I had no trouble answering questions on Buddhism, atheism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Islam etc when I was taking comparative religion. If they cannot learn then not graduating them may well be a good call, so we don't graduate people who cannot learn.

    Most of my friends went to the catholic school.
    So you chose to go to a school to be with your friends. Sounds like you made your choice; live with it.
    Billvon, I'm just curious as to why you say a Catholic has to sin to answer the age of the Earth or how life evolves according to current science.

    The priests I know tell me there is nothing in Catholicism against anything in Earth Sciences or Evolution. Certainly there is long tradition (from about 400AD in fact) of interpreting the bible rather than taking it literally. (Though they do appear to be sticklers for a literal Adam and Eve, due I imagine to the theology of the Fall and subsequent Redemption).
     

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    In addition I believe a papal encyclical from the early 1950s acknowledged there was no conflict between evolutionary theory and Catholocism. I too was puzzled by billvon's remark and surprised by his error in the matter.
     

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    And Lemaitre was a Roman Catholic. I don't think he thought the big bang happened 6000 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony.
    As a non-christian that graduated primary and secondary Christian education, I find this perplexing. If a class isn't a requirement for graduation (as you claim, you can still get a diploma), then the graduation ceremony is a punishment/reward solely based on one class and not the student's complete body of course work.

    It would be consistent if the institution had advertised that class was a requirement for graduation (receiving a diploma), and failure to acquire a passing grade in Christian Ethics would not entitle a student to receive a diploma and attend a ceremony to receive the diploma.

    Based solely on what you claim, it does seem like coercion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    I'm just curious as to why you say a Catholic has to sin to answer the age of the Earth or how life evolves according to current science.
    I don't think they have to. However, if to Weterman learning the contents of the Bible is a sin if you are not a Catholic, then learning about the age of the Earth is surely at least as offensive to a Catholic who believes the Bible literally.

    The priests I know tell me there is nothing in Catholicism against anything in Earth Sciences or Evolution. Certainly there is long tradition (from about 400AD in fact) of interpreting the bible rather than taking it literally. (Though they do appear to be sticklers for a literal Adam and Eve, due I imagine to the theology of the Fall and subsequent Redemption).
    When I was in school the priests/brothers were VERY uncomfortable on this particular topic. At least one taught that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, and that what we learned in biology and earth science was "open to interpretation" - and if we wanted to risk our souls, we could believe whatever we wanted. Another was fine with plate tectonics.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    I'm just curious as to why you say a Catholic has to sin to answer the age of the Earth or how life evolves according to current science.
    I don't think they have to. However, if to Weterman learning the contents of the Bible is a sin if you are not a Catholic, then learning about the age of the Earth is surely at least as offensive to a Catholic who believes the Bible literally.

    The priests I know tell me there is nothing in Catholicism against anything in Earth Sciences or Evolution. Certainly there is long tradition (from about 400AD in fact) of interpreting the bible rather than taking it literally. (Though they do appear to be sticklers for a literal Adam and Eve, due I imagine to the theology of the Fall and subsequent Redemption).
    When I was in school the priests/brothers were VERY uncomfortable on this particular topic. At least one taught that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, and that what we learned in biology and earth science was "open to interpretation" - and if we wanted to risk our souls, we could believe whatever we wanted. Another was fine with plate tectonics.
    That's interesting. I do suspect that modern science filters fairly slowly through to those in the religious life, unless they are scientifically trained. But I sing in a choir with a Catholic priest who took his degree in physics. He certainly doesn't see an issue and nor, I am almost certain, do the Jesuits down the road in Wimbledon. But this in London in 2014 of course. It may have been different in other places at other times. Though I have seen a copy of lectures given in Rome by Cardinal Wiseman in the 1840s (before Origin of Species) making the case that the (then) new science of geology did not pose a threat to Christian faith. So he got it, even back then - and the Pope didn't excommunicate him: he was a bloody cardinal!
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    Why not simply take advantage of Jesus' generous offer to forgive all sins? There's only 1 he won't forgive, so you can have your diploma and eat it too! (Because the only value you'll ever get out of a christian ethics diploma is the fibre in the paper.)
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karsus View Post
    Why not simply take advantage of Jesus' generous offer to forgive all sins? There's only 1 he won't forgive, so you can have your diploma and eat it too! (Because the only value you'll ever get out of a christian ethics diploma is the fibre in the paper.)
    The same reason that you wouldn't go and kill someone, even though you are forgiven.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    That's stupid. To extend your analogy, a gay person is being "bullied" if they have to learn about human reproduction because they aren't going to reproduce that way and so it's "against their sexuality."

    And there is a chapter in the bible that talks about this. It says you should hide the good deeds you do, and it is a sin to express them. I don't remember the book, I read it a while a go.
    ^^THIS is why you might end up not graduating. Not because you have the wrong beliefs, but you can't even be bothered to learn what you are taught.

    A guy can be bullied, for being gay. So should that guy hide being gay, so he has friends?
    No. He should be honest about it. But if he refuses to learn human biology because it is "against his sexuality" he might flunk biology and not graduate. His fault. Not bullying.
    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion. So should he hide it and lie about it?
    No. He should be honest about it. But if he refuses to learn religious history because it is "against his religion" he might flunk religion and not graduate. His fault. Not bullying.
    A gay does not have to practice sex with the opposite in biology class.

    A person of different religion has to practice rituals against his religion in my school. We have to do a prayer plan thingy, where you have to make a prayer and present it in front of the class. That would be the worst part of the class. The prayer before class starts can just be ignored, so that's fine.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I dont think theres any god (except Thor the god of thunder) and think most religion are archaic aberations from darker times when humans were even more ignorant than most are now, but Ill nonetheless share thoughts...


    "Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class?"
    In theory you should have the material(texts) you are supposed to learn, thats the point of a school(unless they are relying on divine intervention) if you study you should pass.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    I did that for 28 years before coming out. your analogy is very flawed.
    Because you may have been bullied if you were honest?

    Same thing with me, just not as bad.
     

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    The prayer plan is something that could go against a religion. They make you say "In the name of the father, son, holy spirit... "

    And I am against that. It is a fake ritual that Catholics do, just for the heck of it. Imo. I don't believe in automated prayers. Doing the sign of the cross so often, will make it meaningless.
     

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    We have to do a prayer plan thingy, where you have to make a prayer and present it in front of the class.
    Well most of us could write a prayer.

    Presumably you do have plenty of examples to work from and you don't have to recite a full twenty decades of the Rosary.

    You can google prayers! Prayers of thanks, prayers of all kinds. Find a few you like just a little bit and mix them up and modify to suit yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    We have to do a prayer plan thingy, where you have to make a prayer and present it in front of the class.
    Well most of us could write a prayer.

    Presumably you do have plenty of examples to work from and you don't have to recite a full twenty decades of the Rosary.

    You can google prayers! Prayers of thanks, prayers of all kinds. Find a few you like just a little bit and mix them up and modify to suit yourself.
    Yes, this is not much of a problem for me, but someone of a totally different religion, it could be hard.
     

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    It is a fake ritual that Catholics do, just for the heck of it. Imo. I don't believe in automated prayers. Doing the sign of the cross so often, will make it meaningless.
    If you're not Catholic, of course it's meaningless to you.

    I don't believe in any prayers but I go along to get along when I'm in church because I'm singing in the choir or at a wedding or a funeral or a baptism. I've even sat through too many, far too many, decades of the Rosary at vigils before funerals.

    I don't see why you can't use this experience to think more deeply about your knowledge of, and commitment to, your own faith, anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    That's interesting. I do suspect that modern science filters fairly slowly through to those in the religious life, unless they are scientifically trained. But I sing in a choir with a Catholic priest who took his degree in physics. He certainly doesn't see an issue and nor, I am almost certain, do the Jesuits down the road in Wimbledon
    This was in a conservative area of Long Island in 1984 with a bunch of Marianists. They were still (I think) enlightened for the time, given that in biology we did learn about evolution, but I don't think they were all comfortable with that. And they got a lay teacher to teach it.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A gay does not have to practice sex with the opposite in biology class.
    And I suspect you do not have to practice circumcision or baptism. So you should be OK.

    A person of different religion has to practice rituals against his religion in my school.
    Hmm. We must have had a more liberal all boys catholic school than you did. The non-believers were required to go to Mass but not to pray or receive communion.

    We have to do a prayer plan thingy, where you have to make a prayer and present it in front of the class. That would be the worst part of the class. The prayer before class starts can just be ignored, so that's fine.
    No worries. Write a prayer to whatever deity or non-deity you believe in. If they then give you grief and threaten to not graduate you - THEN you have good grounds for a lawsuit.
    Last edited by billvon; March 13th, 2014 at 08:26 PM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I dont think theres any god (except Thor the god of thunder) and think most religion are archaic aberations from darker times when humans were even more ignorant than most are now, but Ill nonetheless share thoughts...


    "Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class?"
    In theory you should have the material(texts) you are supposed to learn, thats the point of a school(unless they are relying on divine intervention) if you study you should pass.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    I did that for 28 years before coming out. your analogy is very flawed.
    Because you may have been bullied if you were honest?

    Same thing with me, just not as bad.
    You wont be bullied. I Quite possibly would have been bullied or worse.

    You seem to be looking for an excuse not to do work required of all students
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Hello. My school is a catholic school. I am Christain, but not Catholic.
    Catholics are Christians.

    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony. I believe this is bullying. Why?

    Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class? (It should be called Catholic Ethics class) Because you are not Catholic. It would be odd that a Catholic would fail this class. The school knows this. So if you do not have the same religion as the school, you may not pass. If you don't pass, you cannot go into the graduation ceremony. In other words, what the school is saying, is you do not have the same religion as us, so you are excluded. You are different, so you can't join us.
    If the school had said that if you do not share the same religion, then you are excluded, you would not have been admitted or allowed to attend school there.

    Is there a reason why you are unable to complete the course work for this particular subject?

    Here is an example of bullying:

    A boy with a twitching eye asks some kids to play soccer. The kids say no, and they laugh at the twitching eye.

    Short version: A boy isn't allowed to play soccer because his eye twitches.

    And my school:

    A student believes in a different god. Because of this, he struggles with Christain Ethics class. He fails this class. It is time to graduate. The student isn't allowed into the ceremony because of his mark in the class.

    Short version: Student isn't allowed to have maybe the most important ceremony in his life, because of his religion.
    I fail to see how the two are even comparable.

    As a self declared Christian, your God is the same as the God Catholics believe in (Catholics are also a part of the Christian denomination). Your Bible is also the same.

    Is there a different reason why you are struggling with the class?

    Your inability to attend your graduation ceremony is not because of your religion. It is because you failed a compulsory portion of your studies. I think blaming it on religion is just you trying to find a scapegoat. An excuse. Perhaps if you had studied more and told your teachers that you were struggling from the first instance, that you perhaps needed help in the subject, this would not have been an issue.


    How is the second example any less wrong than the first one?
    Because one is based on something that cannot be controlled and the other is based solely on what appears to be one student trying to find an excuse for why he is failing a compulsory class. To wit, the boy with the twitching eye is being teased and bullied about something that is completely outside of his control. The second is a boy who is failing a compulsory part of his school curriculum and trying to find an out.

    Also, the class is not a good class. I have been asked to sin in questions I had to answer. I put as little as I could into these questions, and I get a bad mark because of it. Answering the questions are against my religion.

    Also, we are asked to write allot about ourselves in this class. What the teacher doesn't understand, is that some people don't want to give their life story to someone they don't even know.
    How are they asking you to sin?

    It seems to me as though you are putting very little effort in the class itself and you are being treated as a student who simply does not put in any effort. Blaming it on the religion of the school you voluntarily attend is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

    My point is, to attend the most important ceremony of my life, I must pass this class. To pass this class, I must sin against my religion, and give out my life story.

    In short:

    I must sin against my religion to attend the most important ceremony in my life.
    How are you sinning?

    Is studying and doing your work properly and diligently sinning? Personally, I find your sense of entitlement to be a bigger sin (if I was religious that is).

    Also, there have been two gay kids in my school. They are gone now. One, I'm not sure what happened, and I think the other got expelled. Not sure why, he didn't do anything wrong that I saw.
    Which has nothing to do with your issues and it is mere speculation on your part.

    Perhaps you should stop trying to appeal to emotion?

    Well, just recently, Pride. The question was "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied".
    It is a question asking you to describe a moral act. It is not asking you to be boastful about it.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    You are a Christian, attending a Christian school. I don't see how or what you are faking.

    Perhaps you should spend less time on internet forums complaining about a subject you do not seem interested in and instead have decided to try to claim you are a victim of bullying for being expected to do your work, and study and do your homework and you might see your grades improve.

    I see, but that is just repeating what the guy before said.

    A guy can be bullied, for being gay. So should that guy hide being gay, so he has friends? Maybe.

    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion. So should he hide it and lie about it? Maybe.

    But that does not change the fact, that the bully is there.
    Your religion is not preventing you from attending your graduation ceremony.

    You are being prevented from attending it because you failed a portion of your curriculum. And that is not based on your religion, but, I am sorry to say, it seems to be based on your apparent laziness and having slacked off somewhat.

    To be honest with you, it seems as though you are the bully in this instance. You expect reward and gratification for doing less than your classmates and when you are told no, you become the abuser and accuse them of bullying and of denying you the right to attend your graduation ceremony. The only person responsible for your not attending the graduation ceremony is you.

    So pull your pants up and do your school work.

    The irony of part of your complaint is that you have spent quite a bit of time telling us, complete strangers on the internet, about yourself, yet you feel having to answer questions about your morals and judgement and ability to know right from wrong in a religious education class at school, and answer such questions to a teacher who knows you is a sin.

    If you were my kid, I'd take your privileges away until you did your school work.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Hello. My school is a catholic school. I am Christain, but not Catholic.
    Catholics are Christians.

    My school has a rule. If you don't pass Christain Ethics class, you can't join the graduation ceremony. You can get your diploma from the government, but you won't be able to join the ceremony. I believe this is bullying. Why?

    Well, why would a person not pass Christain Ethics class? (It should be called Catholic Ethics class) Because you are not Catholic. It would be odd that a Catholic would fail this class. The school knows this. So if you do not have the same religion as the school, you may not pass. If you don't pass, you cannot go into the graduation ceremony. In other words, what the school is saying, is you do not have the same religion as us, so you are excluded. You are different, so you can't join us.
    If the school had said that if you do not share the same religion, then you are excluded, you would not have been admitted or allowed to attend school there.

    Is there a reason why you are unable to complete the course work for this particular subject?

    Here is an example of bullying:

    A boy with a twitching eye asks some kids to play soccer. The kids say no, and they laugh at the twitching eye.

    Short version: A boy isn't allowed to play soccer because his eye twitches.

    And my school:

    A student believes in a different god. Because of this, he struggles with Christain Ethics class. He fails this class. It is time to graduate. The student isn't allowed into the ceremony because of his mark in the class.

    Short version: Student isn't allowed to have maybe the most important ceremony in his life, because of his religion.
    I fail to see how the two are even comparable.

    As a self declared Christian, your God is the same as the God Catholics believe in (Catholics are also a part of the Christian denomination). Your Bible is also the same.

    Is there a different reason why you are struggling with the class?

    Your inability to attend your graduation ceremony is not because of your religion. It is because you failed a compulsory portion of your studies. I think blaming it on religion is just you trying to find a scapegoat. An excuse. Perhaps if you had studied more and told your teachers that you were struggling from the first instance, that you perhaps needed help in the subject, this would not have been an issue.


    How is the second example any less wrong than the first one?
    Because one is based on something that cannot be controlled and the other is based solely on what appears to be one student trying to find an excuse for why he is failing a compulsory class. To wit, the boy with the twitching eye is being teased and bullied about something that is completely outside of his control. The second is a boy who is failing a compulsory part of his school curriculum and trying to find an out.

    Also, the class is not a good class. I have been asked to sin in questions I had to answer. I put as little as I could into these questions, and I get a bad mark because of it. Answering the questions are against my religion.

    Also, we are asked to write allot about ourselves in this class. What the teacher doesn't understand, is that some people don't want to give their life story to someone they don't even know.
    How are they asking you to sin?

    It seems to me as though you are putting very little effort in the class itself and you are being treated as a student who simply does not put in any effort. Blaming it on the religion of the school you voluntarily attend is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

    My point is, to attend the most important ceremony of my life, I must pass this class. To pass this class, I must sin against my religion, and give out my life story.

    In short:

    I must sin against my religion to attend the most important ceremony in my life.
    How are you sinning?

    Is studying and doing your work properly and diligently sinning? Personally, I find your sense of entitlement to be a bigger sin (if I was religious that is).

    Also, there have been two gay kids in my school. They are gone now. One, I'm not sure what happened, and I think the other got expelled. Not sure why, he didn't do anything wrong that I saw.
    Which has nothing to do with your issues and it is mere speculation on your part.

    Perhaps you should stop trying to appeal to emotion?

    Well, just recently, Pride. The question was "Say about a time when you stood up for someone being bullied".
    It is a question asking you to describe a moral act. It is not asking you to be boastful about it.

    That's the same as saying a gay person has the ability to fake being straight, to not be bullied.
    You are a Christian, attending a Christian school. I don't see how or what you are faking.

    Perhaps you should spend less time on internet forums complaining about a subject you do not seem interested in and instead have decided to try to claim you are a victim of bullying for being expected to do your work, and study and do your homework and you might see your grades improve.

    I see, but that is just repeating what the guy before said.

    A guy can be bullied, for being gay. So should that guy hide being gay, so he has friends? Maybe.

    A student can be not allowed to a graduation ceremony, because of his religion. So should he hide it and lie about it? Maybe.

    But that does not change the fact, that the bully is there.
    Your religion is not preventing you from attending your graduation ceremony.

    You are being prevented from attending it because you failed a portion of your curriculum. And that is not based on your religion, but, I am sorry to say, it seems to be based on your apparent laziness and having slacked off somewhat.

    To be honest with you, it seems as though you are the bully in this instance. You expect reward and gratification for doing less than your classmates and when you are told no, you become the abuser and accuse them of bullying and of denying you the right to attend your graduation ceremony. The only person responsible for your not attending the graduation ceremony is you.

    So pull your pants up and do your school work.

    The irony of part of your complaint is that you have spent quite a bit of time telling us, complete strangers on the internet, about yourself, yet you feel having to answer questions about your morals and judgement and ability to know right from wrong in a religious education class at school, and answer such questions to a teacher who knows you is a sin.

    If you were my kid, I'd take your privileges away until you did your school work.
    I believe it is a sin to answer the question. It does not matter if you think my religion is right or wrong, it matters if it goes against my religion or not.

    And there is a more clear sin they make me commit. To go to Ash Wednesday.

    Ash Wednesday is about fasting. They make you go get ashes on your head in the shape of a cross.

    Why is this a sin? 2 reasons:

    Pride. You are wearing the ashes to show off that you celebrate Ash Wednesday. That you fast.

    Second: "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28


    It says in the bible this is a sin. So here, this is proof that I am right about my own religion. Sorry that I had to prove you wrong about my own beliefs.



    And Catholics are Christians. Christians are not Catholics. There is a BIG Difference.
     

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    Why is this a sin? 2 reasons:

    Pride. You are wearing the ashes to show off that you celebrate Ash Wednesday. That you fast.

    Second: "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28
    Nonsense. Wearing the ashes to show off that you celebrate Ash Wednesday is not something that Catholics actually do. It's a dirty mark on your face that tells people that you participated in the morning ritual that day - until you wipe or wash it off. Catholics are supposed to let it wear off but others are not obliged to.

    And it's a sign of penitence, not of bragging rights. Seeing as you're not Catholic I presume you don't go to the Palm Sunday services at the local Catholic church, so you're not involved or informed about the palm fronds and crosses /knots / other items made from fronds being gathered and then burnt to form the ashes for the following year's Ash Wednesday.

    Though googling it I'm a bit surprised to see that people have what's always been a smudge or a blob on people's foreheads done as a neat sign of the cross. Looks downright weird to me.

    The fasting you refer to as being for Ash Wednesday is in fact the beginning of Lent. We don't nowadays fast for the whole of Lent, though the Greek Orthodox church has very, very strict fasting for one last week of Lent before their Easter. The list of what they can't eat looks longer than the list of what they can. It's not like giving up chocolate or your favourite chicken dish for the 40 days of Lent the way the rest of us do, it's really, really restrictive.

    I suspect you've not paid much attention in class and/or you've failed - badly - to find out for yourself what all this catholic stuff is about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    I believe it is a sin to answer the question. It does not matter if you think my religion is right or wrong, it matters if it goes against my religion or not.
    And some Christians think it is a sin to answer a question about evolution correctly. And if they refuse to learn science as a result, they don't get to graduate either. Feel free to make the same choice.
    It says in the bible this is a sin.
    It also says it's a sin to allow gays to live. Hopefully you don't follow that part too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Why is this a sin? 2 reasons:

    Pride. You are wearing the ashes to show off that you celebrate Ash Wednesday. That you fast.

    Second: "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28
    Nonsense. Wearing the ashes to show off that you celebrate Ash Wednesday is not something that Catholics actually do. It's a dirty mark on your face that tells people that you participated in the morning ritual that day - until you wipe or wash it off. Catholics are supposed to let it wear off but others are not obliged to.

    And it's a sign of penitence, not of bragging rights. Seeing as you're not Catholic I presume you don't go to the Palm Sunday services at the local Catholic church, so you're not involved or informed about the palm fronds and crosses /knots / other items made from fronds being gathered and then burnt to form the ashes for the following year's Ash Wednesday.

    Though googling it I'm a bit surprised to see that people have what's always been a smudge or a blob on people's foreheads done as a neat sign of the cross. Looks downright weird to me.

    The fasting you refer to as being for Ash Wednesday is in fact the beginning of Lent. We don't nowadays fast for the whole of Lent, though the Greek Orthodox church has very, very strict fasting for one last week of Lent before their Easter. The list of what they can't eat looks longer than the list of what they can. It's not like giving up chocolate or your favourite chicken dish for the 40 days of Lent the way the rest of us do, it's really, really restrictive.

    I suspect you've not paid much attention in class and/or you've failed - badly - to find out for yourself what all this catholic stuff is about.
    Yes I know what it is meant to be, but that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    I believe it is a sin to answer the question. It does not matter if you think my religion is right or wrong, it matters if it goes against my religion or not.
    And some Christians think it is a sin to answer a question about evolution correctly. And if they refuse to learn science as a result, they don't get to graduate either. Feel free to make the same choice.
    It says in the bible this is a sin.
    It also says it's a sin to allow gays to live. Hopefully you don't follow that part too.
    If someone does agree with evolution, they dont have to take the class and pass it to graduate. And if they dont believe in evolution, they probably wont be a biologist either.


    It does not say it is a sin to allow gays to live.
     

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    I forget, which part of Leviticus was about Jesus, again?

    Adelady already corrected you that Ash Wednesday isn't about Pride, but the opposite of that. And getting a smudge on your face isn't printing a mark, you're thinking of a tattoo.

    How come you didn't already know this from your school work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    If someone does agree with evolution, they dont have to take the class and pass it to graduate.
    Right. But if someone DOESN'T believe in evolution, and refuses to take science because "it's a sin" - they don't graduate.
    And if they dont believe in evolution, they probably wont be a biologist either.
    And you clearly won't be a theologian. So that's OK.
    It does not say it is a sin to allow gays to live.
    Leviticus 20:13 - the Lord says that gays must "surely" be put to death. Letting them live is a sin. Are you a sinner?
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    I haven't read any of the posts on this thread, yet. This is probably foolish, so, here goes...Catholic Bullying. I'm posting because it's St. Patrick's Day and this thread caught my eye. I'm surprised I haven't looked here before. I remember a lot of Catholic bullying. In the 50's ad 60's it was called discipline, and we didn't think of it as Catholic, particularly, just bullying. I credit the nuns with teaching me how to take a punch, a valuable lesson. And , I guess they taught me to read. So, that was worth the beatings, anyway. I saw Billy Cullen, age 8, pummeled by a sister in church right in front of the alter, for the sin of trying to make me laugh, which he did. Rights, lefts, uppercuts.... Horrible sight.
    Here's another form of bullying, telling a little kid he's gonna' burn in Hell if he doesn't win salvation and the same was true of grandpa, who swore a lot.
    Among lesser sins is requiring 7 and 8 year-olds to confess their sins. How much sinning can you really do at such a tender age ? Here's an example of what I mean. In my first or second confessional experience, I couldn't think of any 'good' sins to confess to, so I lied. I confessed to adultery, which I did not quite understand. I thought it included my looking at a friend's older- brother's Playboys. Later, we better understood the value of confession; that you can sin all you want and wipe the slate clean, again, any time you cared to. Of, course, you don't admit to doing such. Falsity is so created.
     

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    It does not say it is a sin to allow gays to live.
    And you claim to have read Leviticus!

    The great thing about being an atheist is that I seem to know more about the bible and about religion than most people who claim a) to believe in their god b) who seem to have skipped all the bits of the bible that show their god in a bad light.

    Here's the whole of Leviticus 20. In KJV form, LEVITICUS CHAPTER 20 which seems to be the most popular version. Of course, if you'd like to pretend that Leviticus isn't in the bible, you still have to deal with Deuteronomy which is very not nice in places. Try Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 for something that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

    No nit picking, no selective quoting. I've faded and smallened the supporting portions, but let's see just who should not be allowed to live. Which basically means who should be stoned to death though that's not always stipulated.

    1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

    3
    ...
    4 ... 5 ... 6 ... 7 ... 8 ...

    9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
    10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
    11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall beupon them.
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
    15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
    16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    17
    ...
    18 ... 19 ... 20 ... 21... 22 ... 23 ... 24 ... 25 ... 26 ...

    27
    A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
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  69. #68  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    but that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
    You've got that wrong.
    Assumed to be a sin, declared to be a sin, maybe.
    But a fact?
    Hardly.
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    And in before anyone wants to say that Leviticus, Deuteronomy and the rest aren't about Jesus. If you read Matthew 5, you'll find the Sermon on the Mount. But you should read the whole chapter. He goes on, and it's not all friendly and loving or anything. Far from it. Jesus is saying that he is right into making some of it even tougher than before.

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Adultery? No shilly-shallying about.

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Divorce? None of this civilised settling things up provided by Jewish religious courts.

    31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

    And the penalty for adultery in that "Old Law"? Death. For both parties. At least the Catholics just refuse to give you communion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Can't quite work out that bit about "save for the cause of fornication" unless it was on her part 1.
    But basically that implies that regardless of the divorce the woman is still considered to be married.
    The guy is okay, but she's in deep doodoo.
    Equality rocks...

    1 In which case she's already buggered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    If someone does agree with evolution, they dont have to take the class and pass it to graduate.
    Right. But if someone DOESN'T believe in evolution, and refuses to take science because "it's a sin" - they don't graduate.
    And if they dont believe in evolution, they probably wont be a biologist either.
    And you clearly won't be a theologian. So that's OK.
    It does not say it is a sin to allow gays to live.
    Leviticus 20:13 - the Lord says that gays must "surely" be put to death. Letting them live is a sin. Are you a sinner?
    You are not required to pass science class to graduate.

    And that is the old testament. Before Jesus saved everyone. We all will die, as we all are sinners. But those that are repentant, will be saved.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It does not say it is a sin to allow gays to live.
    And you claim to have read Leviticus!

    The great thing about being an atheist is that I seem to know more about the bible and about religion than most people who claim a) to believe in their god b) who seem to have skipped all the bits of the bible that show their god in a bad light.

    Here's the whole of Leviticus 20. In KJV form, LEVITICUS CHAPTER 20 which seems to be the most popular version. Of course, if you'd like to pretend that Leviticus isn't in the bible, you still have to deal with Deuteronomy which is very not nice in places. Try Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 for something that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

    No nit picking, no selective quoting. I've faded and smallened the supporting portions, but let's see just who should not be allowed to live. Which basically means who should be stoned to death though that's not always stipulated.

    1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

    3
    ...
    4 ... 5 ... 6 ... 7 ... 8 ...

    9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
    10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
    11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall beupon them.
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
    15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
    16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    17
    ...
    18 ... 19 ... 20 ... 21... 22 ... 23 ... 24 ... 25 ... 26 ...

    27
    A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

    And, we all die, don't we?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    but that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
    You've got that wrong.
    Assumed to be a sin, declared to be a sin, maybe.
    But a fact?
    Hardly.
    No, you are wrong. I know more about my own beliefs than you know. You are telling me that I am wrong about a part of my religion. You are not right.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    You are not required to pass science class to graduate.
    In most places, science and math are required to graduate. I guess you go to an especially permissive school.
    And that is the old testament. Before Jesus saved everyone.
    So you don't believe in the Bible.
    We all will die, as we all are sinners. But those that are repentant, will be saved.
    Ah, so no worries about sinning. Just sin, repent and you'll be saved. Heck, it's in your religion in your own words!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    I believe it is a sin to answer the question. It does not matter if you think my religion is right or wrong, it matters if it goes against my religion or not.
    It has nothing to do with your religion. I suspect you are as ignorant of whatever you claim your religion is, as you appear to be about Catholicism.

    This is purely about your opinion. Your misguided opinion.

    Your arrogance and pride in trying to prove that you and your beliefs are better than those Catholic sinners is very tedious.
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    And, we all die, don't we?
    Yes. We do.

    The preferred process being pain-free surrounded by a loving family or in our sleep without knowing a thing about it.

    The least wanted processes being screaming as our family and neighbours throw rocks at us until we're dead or set fire to us and stand back and watch us die writhing in agony.

    Did you read those instructions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    No, you are wrong. I know more about my own beliefs than you know. You are telling me that I am wrong about a part of my religion. You are not right.
    You may know about your beliefs. You clearly don't know much about your bible.
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  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    And, we all die, don't we?
    Yes. We do.

    The preferred process being pain-free surrounded by a loving family or in our sleep without knowing a thing about it.

    The least wanted processes being screaming as our family and neighbours throw rocks at us until we're dead or set fire to us and stand back and watch us die writhing in agony.

    Did you read those instructions?
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
     

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    You mean the part with Leviticus in it?
     

  81. #80  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    I love the way christians are allowed to pick and choose which bits of the bible they need to accept on the basis that "Jesus saved us".

    p.s. "What do you mean 'us', white man."
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    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    But Jesus insisted that the old laws still apply. Or do you belong to a religious group that only reads the bits of the Gospels that make them feel all soft and warm inside?

    Read Mark 5. All of it.

    When Jesus refers to the "law" he's referring to all the Moses stuff. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. If you don't know your old testament, you don't know what Jesus was talking about.
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  83. #82  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    but that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
    You've got that wrong.
    Assumed to be a sin, declared to be a sin, maybe.
    But a fact?
    Hardly.
    No, you are wrong. I know more about my own beliefs than you know. You are telling me that I am wrong about a part of my religion. You are not right.
    Wrong again.
    You believe it's a sin.
    It's not a FACT that it's a sin.

    This is a fundamental problem with (some) theists: they have trouble distinguishing their beliefs from reality.
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  84. #83  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    This is a fundamental problem with (some) theists: they have trouble distinguishing their beliefs from reality.
    So if they read about another religion and confuse it with their own, does reality change for them?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    Here's what Jesus said:

    Matthew 5: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    So Jesus is saying that you must not change even the smallest part of any commandment or law. Do you disagree with Jesus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    But Jesus insisted that the old laws still apply. Or do you belong to a religious group that only reads the bits of the Gospels that make them feel all soft and warm inside?

    Read Mark 5. All of it.

    When Jesus refers to the "law" he's referring to all the Moses stuff. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. If you don't know your old testament, you don't know what Jesus was talking about.
    Yes the old law still applies, but you will be saved if you are repentant. So if you sin, and are truly sorry for the sin, you will get into heaven.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    Here's what Jesus said:

    Matthew 5: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    So Jesus is saying that you must not change even the smallest part of any commandment or law. Do you disagree with Jesus?
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
     

  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    again, that's the old testament, before Jesus saved us.
    Here's what Jesus said:

    Matthew 5: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    So Jesus is saying that you must not change even the smallest part of any commandment or law. Do you disagree with Jesus?
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    So then what's the problem with completing your school work?
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    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    Dunno how grateful I'd be for that while I'm dying on a bonfire or under a hail of rocks.
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  90. #89  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    Since he's supposedly done that already then it doesn't matter how we behave.

    A sin is still a sin.
    But, because Jesus died to save us, it doesn't matter if we "sin".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    You got that a bit backwards. It is a sin to NOT kill gays, per the law of the Bible (and Jesus said you have to follow that law, every last letter and stroke.) It is not a sin to go to school and learn things.
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  92. #91  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    You got that a bit backwards. It is a sin to NOT kill gays, per the law of the Bible (and Jesus said you have to follow that law, every last letter and stroke.) It is not a sin to go to school and learn things.
    That is total rubbish. Remember the story of the woman about to be stoned for adultery. One of the chief points about the New Testament is that the teaching of Christ supersedes the old laws of the Jews at that time. Eye for an eye -> turn the other cheek, and so forth.
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    Actually, you are both correct. The wonderful thing about the Bible is its contradictions. The original 613 Laws were never revoked, and part of Jesus message was about forgiveness without changing the 613 laws. The laws were never superseded, they are selectively ignored by varying christian sects for a variety of reasons.

    The story of the woman being stone for adultery was added at much later date. It is not considered original to rest of the text.

    This has become a discussion about theology.

    Can we get a moderator to close this thread?
     

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    One of the chief points about the New Testament is that the teaching of Christ supersedes the old laws of the Jews at that time.
    1. Jesus ain't around any more to control any such crowd ... which would be following the instruction given by Jesus himself in ...

    2. Mark 5. The portion following the Sermon on the Mount ... which leads to ...

    3. The objections of many atheists, and many Christians for that matter, that too many self-professed adherents are really "cafeteria Christians" who pick and choose what they do like from the bible or their church and ignore what they don't like or don't understand. Which leads to them to ...

    4. Loudly proclaiming that homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of their God (Leviticus 20:13 while wearing a shirt made of wool and linen, probably mixed also with a man-made fibre. (Leviticus 19:19, Deuteronomy 22:11.) Probably after harvesting every last scrap of grain from the corners of their fields Leviticus 19:9 which might well have been planted with two kinds of plant - back to Leviticus 19:19.

    Cafeteria Christianity at its most obvious, especially when you look at Leviticus 19: 11-18. All about not judging others and loving others as yourself.
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  95. #94  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    So I'm sure your mate Jesus will understand if you have to sin temporarily just to graduate. That is what he died for after all.

    He would probably be a bit pissed off about your constant criticism of other Christians and you playing the victim. I suppose he will forgive you for that as well, but with a heavy sigh. I'm sure he would give you the same advice I would: "Just frikking grow up, for Christ's sake."
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  96. #95  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    Actually, you are both correct. The wonderful thing about the Bible is its contradictions. The original 613 Laws were never revoked, and part of Jesus message was about forgiveness without changing the 613 laws. The laws were never superseded, they are selectively ignored by varying christian sects for a variety of reasons.

    The story of the woman being stone for adultery was added at much later date. It is not considered original to rest of the text.

    This has become a discussion about theology.

    Can we get a moderator to close this thread?
    Interesting observation. But I agree, it was a crap thread when it started and probably is not going to go anywhere.
     

  97. #96  
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    Was institutionalized in a Catholic School for 8 horrible years.

    OK....fairly

    GOOD STUDY SKILLS

    Good learning curve

    that is all of the fair stuff

    you just do it....get through it and I REBELLED about High School.....wouldn't get on the bus....or in the car....so I got to attend a perfectly good academic PUBLIC school.

    HOWEVER

    point being

    You are in the school you learn the curriculum.....you don't have to embrace it....but do your duty.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    Since he's supposedly done that already then it doesn't matter how we behave.

    A sin is still a sin.
    But, because Jesus died to save us, it doesn't matter if we "sin".

    Well if a guy dies for you, will you just "not care" about what he told you to do?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    A sin is still a sin. But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    So I'm sure your mate Jesus will understand if you have to sin temporarily just to graduate. That is what he died for after all.

    He would probably be a bit pissed off about your constant criticism of other Christians and you playing the victim. I suppose he will forgive you for that as well, but with a heavy sigh. I'm sure he would give you the same advice I would: "Just frikking grow up, for Christ's sake."
    You are an atheist, right? So don't tell me to sin to graduate. I can pass with a low mark if I don't sin. But, you don't tell me to sin, if you are an atheist. If you are not part of religion, you do not understand what it is to sin.

    Imagine if your father saved your life, and died in the process. And in his will, he has some things for you to do. Telling me to sin, is like ignoring the will.
     

  100. #99  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    But after Jesus saved us, you will be forgiven for sins.
    Since he's supposedly done that already then it doesn't matter how we behave.
    A sin is still a sin.
    But, because Jesus died to save us, it doesn't matter if we "sin".
    Well if a guy dies for you, will you just "not care" about what he told you to do?
    Yeah.
    Well done on completely ignoring the point.

    And you're assuming that he died for me (or anyone else).
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    Well if a guy dies for you, will you just "not care" about what he told you to do?
    You sure don't seem to care. You ignore the laws of the Old Testament, even though he told you not to change them one little bit. Do you just not care about what he said?
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