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Thread: Is jesus god?

  1. #101  
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    It is probable that there are more pre-Christians than Christians.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    It is probable that there are more pre-Christians than Christians.
    What is a pre-Christian ?

    Infact, what is a "christian" - is it someone who A) merely believes in chrsit as the messiah. B) lives the values taught by Jesus and the bible or C) both.

    I am rather confused because I have known a lot of people in my time who go to church on a sunday, call themselves christian then by monday morning have turned themselves into the most nastiest piece of shit, once again....until the following sunday comes when they once again ask for forgivness.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    I have known a lot of people who do not even take Sunday off from their nastiness. Nor have I ever noticed that Christians were particularly more or less nasty than non-Christians. The difference is that we expect Christians to emulate Christ without realizing that if we were able to do that, there would have been no need for a Christ.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    In the broadest sense of the word, an ethereal God is no different than one in the flesh. If we want our local shaman, pharaoh, messiah and others to become one then we are quite capable of arranging it. God is a title we have eagerly distributed throughout history and many people real or imagined have been bestowed as such, along with many mystical unseen entities. A God title is knighthood, a rank, a step above messiah, prophet and canonization . The order may be wrong but Godliness is number 1.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  6. #106  
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    Jeremyhfht,

    Is not the son of a god a god himself? Can there be any other who can be both himself and his own son, besides God?

    If you are Christian, then you accept that God is all powerful, and that He always speaks the truth. If God says He is His Son, and His Son says He is His Father, yet He-‘they’-claim to be separate yet of one, then you must accept that Christ is God's Son and is God Himself.

    If you are not Christian, and are unwilling to place yourself in the Christian mindset, then who are you to argue within someone else's beliefs?

    So, if you are Christian or in a Christian mindset, you must accept that He is His Father and His Father's Son all the same. Now, I see you are willing to believe some things Christian-the existance of God, Jesus, etc.-yet choose to reject other things Christian, all whilst trying to argue against a Christian concept. If you look closely, you'll see that your argument only makes sense against Christianity because you have decided to pick out the parts of Christianity that support your view, and ignore those that do not.

    Is this right? Should you be allowed to pick only the evidence that supports your position while ignoring the evidence that points you to be so clearly wrong? In your own religion-which is comprised of some things Christian, but not all-this belief does all fall apart. But in the terms of Christianity, it all makes perfect sense. Much the same way outside religions always seem to not make sense.

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    Rv. Jon
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  7. #107  
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    Psst...I'm an atheist. *goes back to lurking/looking for old posts I need*
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  8. #108  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Psst...I'm an atheist.

    Yes, I am aware. That is why I find it wrong for you to criticize all of Christianity by trying to show it as somehow contradictory, and only using half of the beliefs of Christianity to do so, when the other half, if considered, would remove your contradiction.

    You've shown a contradiction in a chosen set of beliefs that you have been arguing--whether you believe them or not is irrelivant--, but those are not Christianity; any conclusion you draw can only be applied to those beliefs, and not to all of Christianity.

    Regards,
    Rv. Jon
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  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon
    Yes, I am aware. That is why I find it wrong for you to criticize all of Christianity by trying to show it as somehow contradictory, and only using half of the beliefs of Christianity to do so, when the other half, if considered, would remove your contradiction.

    You've shown a contradiction in a chosen set of beliefs that you have been arguing--whether you believe them or not is irrelivant--, but those are not Christianity; any conclusion you draw can only be applied to those beliefs, and not to all of Christianity.

    Regards,
    Rv. Jon
    Oh for fuck...okay, I knew I shouldn't have even bothered replying when I found this. Not only have I included the whole of christianity in my pointing out of it being contradictory, but you've not pointed out the supposed "other half" that is not.

    Not only have I spent countless hours debating this concept, but I also used to be religious. I do believe I know what the bible contains, Jon, and I'm well aware of it's contradictions and theistic defenses. If you care to look at the religious threads I took part in, perhaps you'd know this.

    And thus, I bid thee adieu. Go bother someone else with your stupidity.

    So now I shall vanish for another couple of months o-o
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  10. #110  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    And thus, I bid thee adieu. Go bother someone else with your stupidity.

    So now I shall vanish for another couple of months o-o

    Ad Hominem and run? Well, I will still answer your question for those who may be interested in this debate on a more intellectual level.

    Your original argument appears to be that because Christ claims to be the Son of God, that He cannot also be God as well. In this case, you have hinged your argument on only a few passages from the Bible; I'll quote your first one here:

    Do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36, Recovery Version)

    Quoting only this passage ignores others that speak contradictory to the thesis of your argument. In fact, only lines before the passage you quote there is a contradictory passage; John 10:33:

    The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, are making Yourself God.

    This passage shows Jesus to have claimed to be God, and John 10:36 shows Him claiming to be God's Son. So, how can this be rectified? Well, there is a simply aspect to Christian belief that you have overlooked here, and which is shown in John 10:38:

    But if I do them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father.

    Also:

    I and the Father are one(John 10:30).

    Christ says He is God, and also the Son of God. He is both at the same time; a belief crucial to Christian teachings that you have decided to completely ignore. When we take this into account, we see that Christ can be God, and God's Son, because God can be and do as He wants and wills.

    Now, I would also like to point out a few problems with your initial argument, which is mainly that you have no counterpoints in place, and have left yourself open to the attacks you've seen in this thread. You should address this point that I have brought up; that God is powerful enough to be His Son and His Father and Himself all at the same time and place.

    The concept is difficult to wrap a human mind around, but it is true of the Christian nature of God, which you must use if you want your arguments to have any relevance to the Christian faith.

    Until later,
    Rv. Jon
    :-)
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  11. #111  
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    When we take this into account, we see that Christ can be God, and God's Son, because God can be and do as He wants and wills.
    Very clear. No point for further argument. God can be contradictary, defying all hard evidence. He can know the future and can change the future. He can make the whole universe exists two seconds ago and make it looks as if it already existed 14 billion years ago. Because He can be anything he wants to be, do anything he wants to do.

    No need for scientific courses, then. There is only one answer for everything. There is nothing more to learn.

    Halelujah.
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    Jon,

    Your original argument appears to be that because Christ claims to be the Son of God, that He cannot also be God as well.
    Well, it does seem a tad paradoxical. :-D

    In this case, you have hinged your argument on only a few passages from the Bible; I'll quote your first one here:

    Do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36, Recovery Version)

    Quoting only this passage ignores others that speak contradictory to the thesis of your argument. In fact, only lines before the passage you quote there is a contradictory passage; John 10:33:

    The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, are making Yourself God.

    This passage shows Jesus to have claimed to be God...
    No it doesn't. This shows that the jews thought he claimed to be God.

    ...and John 10:36 shows Him claiming to be God's Son. So, how can this be rectified? Well, there is a simply aspect to Christian belief that you have overlooked here, and which is shown in John 10:38:

    But if I do them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father.
    This shows the relationship between Jesus and God, not that Jesus is God.

    Also:

    I and the Father are one(John 10:30).
    Please explain how that means Jesus and God is one and the same person?

    Christ says He is God, and also the Son of God.
    He never says that.

    He is both at the same time;
    No he's not. He is Jesus, and his father is God, and there is nothing to the contrary apart from wishful thinking on the part of some christians.

    ...a belief crucial to Christian teachings that you have decided to completely ignore.
    Since when was this crucial to christian teachings?
    And can you explain why it part of christian teachings?

    When we take this into account, we see that Christ can be God, and God's Son, because God can be and do as He wants and wills.
    That is no reason to say Jesus is God. Please give some philosophical explanation to these biblical verses which you claim prove Jesus and God one and the same person.

    Jan.
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Jon,

    Your original argument appears to be that because Christ claims to be the Son of God, that He cannot also be God as well.
    Well, it does seem a tad paradoxical. :-D
    Paradox does not apply to God.

    In this case, you have hinged your argument on only a few passages from the Bible; I'll quote your first one here:

    Do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36, Recovery Version)

    Quoting only this passage ignores others that speak contradictory to the thesis of your argument. In fact, only lines before the passage you quote there is a contradictory passage; John 10:33:

    The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, are making Yourself God.

    This passage shows Jesus to have claimed to be God...
    No it doesn't. This shows that the jews thought he claimed to be God.
    You're grasping at straws here. Especially since He does claim to be God all on His own, I even quoted the passage, and will find others when I return home to my Bible.

    ...and John 10:36 shows Him claiming to be God's Son. So, how can this be rectified? Well, there is a simply aspect to Christian belief that you have overlooked here, and which is shown in John 10:38:

    But if I do them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father.
    This shows the relationship between Jesus and God, not that Jesus is God.
    Let's exam the logic of the passage I quoted. We'll assign Christ the variable C, and God the variable G.

    Now, Chirst says that He is in God. Let's draw a diagram to represent that:
    (warning, very bad text-made diagram coming up :wink: )

    ( G (C ) )

    Let's just pretend those parenthesis are full circles, and each circle can represent only C or G. In this case, C is inside of G.

    Next, Christ claims that God is in Him (in other words, G is inside of C):

    ( C ( G ) )

    As you can see, these two statements seem contradictory. There are two ways to fix this contradiction, i.e., there are two ways to make this statement make sense. I will show you how in both ways we must accept Christ as being God, and God as being Christ. First, we can make the variables the same. So now we would have one variable, I.

    I is inside of I:

    ( I ( I ) )

    and, I is inside of I:

    ( I ( I ) )

    Another option is to set them on top of each other, in which case we would only have one circle because they would cover to form one.

    (CG)

    and

    (GC)

    What is the difference between (CG) and (GC)? Draw it out on a piece of paper, once. A circle, inside is G and C. Place the variables where you want... draw one cursive and the other print, big letters here, small letters there. Draw another circle, do the same thing with the letters, make them how you want them. What will you see? You will see that the difference between the two cirlces is not real. They are the same thing. the only differences that one can find between the circles is the differences that have been arbitrarily put in place based on how you drew them. In the end they are the same circle, with the same variables inside.

    In either one of these reconciliations, we have the same result: Christ being God, and God being Christ. The circle represents everything, just as God does. So, we cannot pull C out of the CG circle, because G is the circle. This is a hard concept for someone whose mind is stuck in the rut of elementary math--where x always equals one thing--, but it's not at all difficult to understand in terms of God. He is the Cirlce, and is in the Cirlce at the same time!

    You will undoubtedly have more questions , but I am willing to answer all that you put forward.

    Regards,
    Rv. Jon
    :-)
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    Jon,


    Paradox does not apply to God.

    No. But they apply to us, and what need is there of this particular one, when it can be understood easily without any paradoxes.

    Jan.... No it doesn't. This shows that the jews thought he claimed to be God.

    You're grasping at straws here. Especially since He does claim to be God all on His own, I even quoted the passage, and will find others when I return home to my Bible.

    On the contrary, I'm afraid it is you who clutches at straws, as it is glaringly obvious that Jesus refers to God as his father, despite being qualitatively the same (one)

    I is inside of I:

    ( I ( I ) )

    and, I is inside of I:

    ( I ( I ) ) [/quote]


    You still have two individual “I”’s

    What is the difference between (CG) and (GC)? Draw it out on a piece of paper, once.

    I understand what you are saying, but it still remains that C & G, are……C & G. They can be the same in quality, but God is always greater.
    A government reprisentitive, given power of authority, is to be treated like the government, yet he/she is not the government.

    This is from the same chapter;

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    I fail to see how this is not obvious to you.

    This is a hard concept for someone whose mind is stuck in the rut of elementary math--where x always equals one thing--, but it's not at all difficult to understand in terms of God. He is the Cirlce, and is in the Cirlce at the same time!

    I understand that God can do what he likes, but why assert that Jesus is God, when it is overwhelmingly obvious, he isn’t, according to his own words?

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    No he's not. He is Jesus, and his father is God, and there is nothing to the contrary apart from wishful thinking on the part of some christians.
    Since "some" Christians includes the entire Protestant community, the entire Catholic community and the entire Orthodox community, I think you're slightly misusing the word "some". As one of no faith it is odd to hear someone of faith refer to others of faith as making use of "wishful thinking", but no matter.

    On the other hand, Jan is right, Jesus did not himself claim himself to be God other than the statement "I and the Father are One", which I have to say I always interpreted as suggesting that we were all One with God.

    Evangelicals are very keen on the Gospel of John, and what I've always wanted to know is, have any of them tried reading John on its own without any preconceptions about Jesus, Christianity or the Gospel story, particularly the Synoptics - as if this is the means they are first learning about it. If they tried that, they might well find themselves sharply revising their opinion of Jesus, whom in John displays not one jot or iota of the modesty and self-effacing characteristics of the Jesus everybody thinks they know.
    "It is comparatively easy to make clever guesses; indeed there are theorems, like 'Goldbach's Theorem' which have never been proved and which any fool could have guessed." G.H. Hardy, Fourier Series, 1943
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    Silas,

    Since "some" Christians includes the entire Protestant community, the entire Catholic community and the entire Orthodox community, I think you're slightly misusing the word "some". As one of no faith it is odd to hear someone of faith refer to others of faith as making use of "wishful thinking", but no matter.
    There are, as you know, fundamentalist christians who believe that christianity is the only true religion, and everything else is null and void, or a tool for the devil. The idea that Jesus is God himself, would, in their mind, give justification for their percieved dominance. Hence why I say "wishful thinking".
    "Faith" and "wishful" thinking are two different states of mind. Religious faith means you respect the authority of Gods representitive, as there is no other way to understand God, perfectly.
    "Wishful thinking" is purely a materialistic approach, which usually comes unstuck when the adherent does not recieve his booty. Or they find something else that helps get them the prize they were really after.

    Jan.
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    But, ridiculously, each religious group declares themselve as the 'true' religion. It seems strange how an individual can take one faith over another. Where does this individual derive his knowledge of the 'truth'? From a book, from word of mouth? They're all the same. What makes an individual to follow a doctrine of faith when they truly have no proof, but that which some describe as their 'knowing', or their feelings?

    Over all of this, why won't the 'one true god' just come down and reveal himself. It seems more logical to let everyone know who he really is, and then allow them the choice to believe in him. Maybe he's not a logical god? Maybe logic is 'the way of the devil'? Or maybe god is a god who does not really care about the intents of the man's heart, and solely cast his love towards beauty. Or, maybe it is all not true. Maybe their is no god. But, I can't prove that.
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    I remain amused at the atheistic offerings on this topic.

    First all, atheists do not believe there is a God, ruling out any potential that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the universe.

    Second, atheists do not believe the Bible is anything other than a collection of mythological stories which are totally irrelevant to life.

    Then atheists turn around use the Bible (which the do not believe), to attempt to prove that Jesus (a person some do not believe ever existed) is not one and the same person as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (whom they do not believe in the first place).

    This type of analysis is unnecessary from its inception. If one does not believe in God, it naturally follows that one would not believe Jesus is Him. If one does not believe the Bible, it naturally follows that one would not believe Jesus is God.

    Even if the Bible were a total work of fiction, one could not logically analyze it without concluding that it presents the character Jesus as being God. What is interesting is that atheists and Christians alike generally use New Testament writings to present their arguments. Yet early Christians were convince of Jesus’ identity through Old Testament scriptures.

    Atheists consistently assign their own personal meanings to the symbolic terms in Bible and use those self-proclaimed definitions to “prove” that that Bible does not conclude that Jesus is God in the flesh.

    It is about as effective as it would be for me to take the formula E=mc2 and prove in wrong by ascribing my own meanings to the symbolism therein and then using that to prove that the entirety of physics is wrong. Not only would such an approach show me to be totally ignorant on the topic, it would also show my complete and utter disrespect for those who do understand it. Surely, if atheists are half as intelligent as they want other to think they are, they can see the logic of that comparison.

    For an atheist to say he does not believe there is a god and that the Bible is a work of fiction and, therefore, Jesus cannot be God, is honest and makes sense. For atheists to use the Bible in an attempt to show that Jesus is not God is as silly as some ignoramus trying to prove physics wrong by improperly applying the theories of relativity.

    The Bible unequivocally, absolutely, plainly, unabashedly, presents the person Jesus to be God in the flesh. While that could be a complete and total fiction, it is not because the Bible fails to show it. It is the main theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations.

    Someone up above suggested reading the book of John out of the context of the rest of the Bible. How stupid is that? That is like taking chapter 13 out of your physics book and not putting it into the context of the rest of your text book. What an asinine suggestion!
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  19. #119  
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    nanobrain asked:

    Over all of this, why won't the 'one true god' just come down and reveal himself. It seems more logical to let everyone know who he really is, and then allow them the choice to believe in him.
    Uhhhh. That is the best description of Jesus I have seen posted here.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Nanobrain,

    But, ridiculously, each religious group declares themselves as the 'true' religion.
    But the religion to which they profess declares no such thing.

    It seems strange how an individual can take one faith over another.
    That point must be addressed to the individual in question, as it is they who have undertaken this task, not the religion they adhere to.

    Where does this individual derive his knowledge of the 'truth'? From a book, from word of mouth? They're all the same.
    Truth is all around us, because there has to be a truth, no matter what the subject, and we cannot except anything as truth without some kind of observation or direct experience. This is most probably why Jesus used analogies, parables and anecdotes, as a way for people to see the truth through simple experiences. Once you recognise truth, even on the most simplest of levels, that path can be used to understand things beyond sensual perception, but first there must be faith in the character of the person administering the method.

    What makes an individual to follow a doctrine of faith when they truly have no proof, but that which some describe as their 'knowing', or their feelings?
    There is not always the oppotunity to proove something, but yet we are bound to act, and therefore some decisions we make, allow us to act in a sort of ignorance, because we do not fully understand the consequences of our actions. So individuals tend to follow a doctrine, be it of faith or not, because within it they feel that is the right way to act.

    Over all of this, why won't the 'one true god' just come down and reveal himself.
    He reveals himself to those individuals who are fully devoted to him, because that is the actual standard. When Jesus revealed he was the son of God, he was accused of blasphemy. So coming down and revealing himself would make no difference to the ignorant.

    It seems more logical to let everyone know who he really is, and then allow them the choice to believe in him.
    He already has. What do you think scriptures are?

    Maybe he's not a logical god? Maybe logic is 'the way of the devil'?
    If he is God, then he must be the most logical. If he is God, then he is the greatest.

    Or maybe god is a god who does not really care about the intents of the man's heart, and solely cast his love towards beauty. Or, maybe it is all not true. Maybe their is no god. But, I can't prove that.
    The "But, I can't prove that" section of your statement is inadvertantly (or not), proof that you have no intention of finding out, as you know science cannot prove God exists, at any time. Simply because, science only analyses matter, and God is not material.
    The method to understanding God, perfectly, has always been there through the great souls that have come and gone, and the examples and teaching they leave behind, but we choose not to adhere to it in complete humility, hence the confusion.

    Jan.
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    daytonturner,

    Even if the Bible were a total work of fiction, one could not logically analyze it without concluding that it presents the character Jesus as being God.
    Would you also agree that one could just as easily conclude that Jesus is not God, given the verses I presented?
    To conclude that Jesus and God are the same person, from reading the bible, would, imo, would be of the conclusion of a scholar, as opposed to the simple people Jesus addressed. Don't you think?
    Why would Jesus leave it to scholars to impart such essential knowledge?

    The Bible unequivocally, absolutely, plainly, unabashedly, presents the person Jesus to be God in the flesh.
    It also presents Jesus as the son of God, faithful to his father. In other words its not as straight-forward as you seem think it is. Maybe it is, and I can't see it, which is why I am curioius. But if you are using the same evidence I am, namely the bible, to come to this conclusion, then it most certainly isn't as straight-forward as you seem to think it is. Therefore, please kindly explain "the obvious".

    Jan.
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  22. #122  
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    John 17:5 [words spoken by Christ]

    And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was (Recovery Version).

    John 1:1-2

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God.

    The supplementary note for the Recovery Version makes the point very well:

    Contrary to what is supposed by some, it is not that Christ was not with God and was not God from eternity past, and that at a certain time Christ became God and was with God. Christ's deity is eternal and absolute. From eternity past to eternity future, He is with God and He is God.

    Need I say more?

    Regards,
    Rv. Jon
    :-)
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  23. #123  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I remain amused at the atheistic offerings on this topic.
    ...
    What an asinine suggestion!
    8) AMEN!
    :-)
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    Sorry, Jan, I cannot agree with you on this issue. The diety of Christ is the central belief of mainstream Christianity.

    Your view seems to mimic that of either Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons who do not subscribe to the doctrine that Jesus and Yahweh are two equal aspects of the same person much as your mind and emotions are two different aspect of the same you.

    The necessity for Jesus to be God in order for Christianity to be valid was discussed earlier in this thread.

    All I can say is that if one does not believe Jesus is God, he cannot be Christian any more than one who does not believe Muhammed is a prophet can be a Muslim.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    I tend to think that if there is a God, Jesus was and is He.
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    Jesus was God because the Old Testament prophecies make it clear that He was.

    Some people claim the Old Testament prophecies don't accuratly depict Jesus as the Messiah. Well these people have never read the prophecies themselves.

    The Majority of Messianic prophecies are very clearly written.

    For example.

    Isaiah 9:6

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


    Proverbs 30:27
    Who has ascended into heaven or descended?
    Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
    Who has bound the waters in a garment?
    Who has establoshed all the ends of the earth?
    What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?

    Isaiah 42:6c
    "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"
    Isaiah 53:4b
    "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
    Isaiah 53:10c
    "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin"



    Now. Critics of the Bible used to say that the Old Testament was changed after Jesus in order to make it seem as if Jesus fulfilled prophecies.

    Well if the Old Testament was changed, other nations who hated the Jews and the Old Testament would have jumped right on it and exposed it. Christianity would have fallen. Common sense tells us no change occured, because after 300 years of debate over Christianity the world largest and most powerful empire whom had speant over 300 years persceuting and debating with Christians, converted to Christianity as state religion. The Roman Empire was hostile towards christianity. It would have been an embarassment for the empire to convert to Christianity which (if it were a hoax) would had been exposed as a hoax by the Empire.

    That is the common sense of the Bible's accuracy.

    Now the historical accuracy...

    The Dead Sea Scroll's were discovered in 1948, and contain every book of the current Old Testament but one. The earliest texts date back to 350 B.C., and the latest were written at 70 A.D.

    The Prophecies concerning the Messiah are in the Dead Sea Scroll's, the Scroll's are pretty much word for word as the bible's we've been using for hundreds of years (only a few differences due to language translation, but nothing that corrupts the word).

    Now... Islam bases their faith on the theory that the Hebrew Old Testament had been changed after the time of Christ. The reason for this is because the Old Testament so accuratly fortels Jesus's life.

    The Dead Sea Scroll's prove that the Old Testament was not changed, but infact the prophecies concerning Jesus are there 350 years before His life, and death.

    So the Dead Sea Scroll's demolish Islam. And prove Christianity, the facts are just comonly overlooked by Christians. I hope more people catch onto the significance of this archaelogical discovery which happens to be the most important discovery in history as of now.



    Now the Only Debate to how the prophecies appeared in the Old Testament has to be thrown out the window. we have no choice to accept the fact that the Old Testament makes prophecies which only Jesus Christ has fulfilled.

    the only debate is to say that it was changed after Jesus, this is said because the prophecies so accuratly fortell Jesus. But the Dead Sea Scroll's have proven to us that the prophecies have been there since hundreds of years before Christ.

    Isaiah 52:13

    Bhold, My servant shall deal prudently;
    He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. (My Servant will be worshipped, recognised, be very high)
    Just as many as were astonished at you,
    So His visage was marred more than any man,
    And His form more tan the sons of men;
    So shall He sprinkle many nations. (Bless many nations with salvation)
    Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
    For wwhat had not been told them they shall see,
    And what they had not heard they shall consider.

    Who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
    For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
    And as a root out of dry ground.
    He has no form or comeliness;
    And when we see Him, (when we see God)
    There is no beauty that we should desire Jim.
    He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Jesus Was despised and rejected by men. Ultimately killed in order to establish a covenant with death.)

    Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted. (Jesus has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (of those who follow him), yet we esteemed Him stricken by God and afflicted (from the devil). Jews thought Jesus was a demon posessed Sorcerer, as seen in the Jewish Talmud, and other historical writings.)

    But He was wounded for our trangressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities; (Through His wounds he would bring forgiveness for our sins, and be the way to salvation)
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, everyone, to his own way;
    And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Jesus has laid on Him the iniquity of us all, through His wounds which He suffered on earth)

    He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, (He was lead to death, and remained silent)
    And as a sheeo before its shearers is silent,
    So He opened not His mouth.
    He was taken from prison and from judgment.
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was vut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. (The man who offered salvation and bore the sin's of many would be killed and through His bloodshed and suffering God will make him the way to salvation)
    And they made His grave with the wicked-
    But with the rich at His death, (Jesus was killed with criminals, but buried in a rich man's tomb)
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was any deceit in His mouth. (This means the man must have been God, because no man is perfect unless He is God)

    Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin, (Jesus's soul was made an offering for sin, because it pleased God to give His Son to die on earth so future generations could receive salvation and eternal life)
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
    He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities. (For the righteous servant shall bear their iniquities)
    Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the trangressors.


    So the Basis of this is saying that God saying He's going to send his rigtheous servant to earth to teach God's message. It say's God's servant will be rejected, despised and considered a demon posessed sorcerer, cursed by God. It says God's servant will be killed by the Jews, and through His bloodshed and death future generations would worship him and receive salvation through believing in God's word.

    Well we know Jesus came to earth and brought about the New Testament. so Jesus fulfills the prophecy concerning teaching God's message. We Know Jesus was rejected, despised, and considered a demon psessed sorcerer cursed by God. Just like the Isaih prophecy says.

    And most of all. We know Jesus has been worshipped far above anyone in history, and Jesus's death and bloodshed is considered the way to salvation. Exactly like the Isaiah prophecy said. Infact, no one else in History is considered the way to salvation, no one else in history has died and has been considered the way to salvation by millions of people. Today there are over 1billion christian's on earth, more than any other religion, and the Bible is the all time #1 best selling book. So only Jesus Christ comes close to fulfilling this single prophecy.






    God will send His Son

    Isaiah 7:10-16

    The LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God;
    But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"
    Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (which means 'God with us').
    Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

    God tells Israel (house of David) to listen, because God tells us that a virgin would conceive and bear a Son and He will be called Immanuel (which means God with us). For before the Child was born, he shall known to refuse the evil and choose the good (signifying that this is the pre-existant Son of God who would do no evil)

    This Child would be known as the Messiah, the Son of God, The Covenant Bringer.


    Isaiah 9:6

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Among us A child is born
    Unto us a Son is given (given to die to establish God's new covenant with the people)
    And He will be God (part of the trinity, Father, Son (Jesus) and Us (God's spirit in us all)


    1 Chronicles 17:11

    And it shall be when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.

    I Bring bring up from among your son's (born to earth). The son would build a House (religion) for the Lord. The Son shall be the Son of God (covered in past prophecies) . Jesus's throne and kingdom has been established forever through His sacrifice on the cross, At His death God the Father handed over His throne and His rule to Jesus.

    We know Jesus came to earth and created Christianity which remains the world's most popular religion.

    Psalm 2:7b
    "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

    God's Son would delare to the people, that he is God's Son, His righteous messenger.


    Isaiah 40:3

    The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD;
    (9) Say to the cities of Judah, "behold your God!"

    Behold the Lord God shall come with a strong hand,
    And His arm shall rule for Him;
    Behold His reward is with Him,

    one comes preparing the people for the presence of the Lord on earth. Say to the cities behold your God (lives among us).
    Behold his reward is with Him (salvation through Jesus Christ)


    Jeremiah 23:5

    ""Behold, the days are comming," says the Lord,
    "that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
    A King shall reign and propsper,
    And execute judgment and righteousness

    Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS


    Zechariah 9:9
    "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."


    Zechariah 10:3

    "My anger is kindles against the shepherds,
    And I will punish the goatherds.
    For the Lord of hosts will visit His flock,
    The house of Judah,
    And will make them as His royal horse in the battle,
    From him comes the cornerstone,

    God will visit the house of Judah (Israel), and when he does come he will be the cornerstone the sure foundation (from him will come teachings of God, truthful teachings of God)

    Zechariah 2:10

    "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the Lord.

    Couldn't be said any clearer. God says he's comming to dwell in the midst of Israel.



    Job 19:23-27

    Oh That my words were written!
    Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
    That they were engraved on rock
    With an iron pen and lead, forever!
    For I know that my Redeemer lives,
    And He shall stand at last on earth


    Psalm 89:24

    " But My faithfulness abd My mercy shall be with him,
    And in My name his horn shall be exalted
    Also I will set his hand over the sea,
    And his right hand over the rivers.
    He shall cry out to Me, 'You are my Father,
    My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
    Also i will make him My firstborn,
    The highest of kings of the earth.
    My mercy I will keep for him forever,
    And my covenant shall stand firm with him.

    Isaiah 28:16-20

    Says the LORD God:

    "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for foundation,
    A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
    Whoever believes will not act hastily.
    Also i will make justice the measuring line,
    And righteousness the plummet;
    The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
    And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
    Your covenant with death will be annulled,
    And your agreement with Sheol will not stand;

    Jesus is the precious cornerstone, the sure foundation. In Jesus the covenant with death was annulled, it was changed. Now we must accept Jesus to get into heaven.


    Zechariah 13:10

    "And I will pur on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; Then they will look on me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for him as one grieves for a firstborn.



    Jesus's death will establish a new covenant

    Isaiah 42

    "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
    My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
    I have put My Spirit upon Him;
    He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles"

    Thus says God the Lord
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    who spred forth the earth and which comes from it,
    who gives breath to the people on it,
    And spirit to those who walk on it:
    "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
    And will hold Your hand;
    I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
    As a light to the Gentiles.
    (8) I am the Lord, that is My name;
    And My glory I will not give to another,
    Nor My praise to carved images.
    Behold, the former things have come to pass,
    And new things I declare;


    Jeremiah 31:31

    "Behold the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day tthat I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;


    Jeremiah 31:31
    "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"


    Isaiah 42:6c

    "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"
    God will give "someone" for a covenant of the people, for a light to the Gentiles. Called in righteousness and guided by God, the man would be the light to the Gentiles. Light refers to wisdom, truthful teachings.

    Jesus Christ's bloodshed and death established a new covenant between God and Mankind. This new covenant changed the way in which people obtaain salvation.

    Jesus Christ proves to be the light of the gentiles through the teachings which he left behind.

    There is no one else who comes close to fitting this messianic prophecy, simply if any other person were the light to the Gentiles then we would have a historical record of him and his teachings. Only Jesus Christ comes close to fulfilling this prophecy.


    Isaiah 53:12

    "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors: and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    Someone would come and die, and He will bare the sins of many and make intercession for the sinners.

    Isaiah 53:11

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

    Isaiah 53:8d
    "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

    Isaiah 53:10c
    "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin"

    Isaiah 53:4b
    "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

    Isaiah 53:6a
    "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."










    Israel would be scattered as a result of rejecting the Messiah
    Zechariah 13:7d
    "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."


    Israel killed the shepherd (Jesus), and Israel (the sheep) were scattered.

    The Jews killed Jesus, and the land of Israel was taken over 40 years after and the people were scattered. the prophecy makes it very clear.



    This is why Jesus is God. Because Prophecies given to us by God in the Old Testament make it very clear that only the historical Jesus comes close to fulfilling the prophecies, and only the historical Jesus fulfills every single one of the hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament.

    Remember with the discovery of dead sea scroll's, or a little common sense these prophecies have proven to be written in the Old Testament before Christ. Thus we can only accept the fact that Jesus is God, because no one has fulfilled prophecies like Jesus has.
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  27. #127  
    Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil393
    Well if the Old Testament was changed, other nations who hated the Jews and the Old Testament would have jumped right on it and exposed it. Christianity would have fallen. Common sense tells us no change occured, because after 300 years of debate over Christianity the world largest and most powerful empire whom had speant over 300 years persceuting and debating with Christians, converted to Christianity as state religion. The Roman Empire was hostile towards christianity. It would have been an embarassment for the empire to convert to Christianity which (if it were a hoax) would had been exposed as a hoax by the Empire.

    That is the common sense of the Bible's accuracy.

    A couple things:

    First, this post is not the place for debating the Bible's accuracy as it pertains to the real world. We're simply discussing whether the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible and Christianity are portrayed in a manner that make them one and separate, or just simply separate. Second, you have failed to realize that many great empires have held onto religious beliefs which were never exposed as ‘hoaxes.’ Do you think the Egyptian religion is true in all its reality simply because their empire never declared it a hoax in all its 3000 year existence?

    And as a third note, there is an entire thread devoted to discussing the fall of the Roman Empire (Why did Rome fall?) in which the conversion to Christianity is offered up as a possible cause. If Christianity did manage to throw an empire into chaos, then it certainly would put a large hole in your argument of the Bible's accuracy based on the successful conversion of the Roman Empire.



    Now, the rest of your post also doesn't discuss the topic. The topic is not about the historical accuracy of the Bible. It is not about whether the predictions of the Messiah have come true. It is not about whether Jesus Christ was actually the person prophesied in the Old Testament.

    The topic is whether or not the Bible and/or Christian religion currently portrays Jesus Christ as also being God. There are believers and non-believers arguing in this topic, from both sides of the fence. Ultimately this, topic is simply about the interpretation of a particular piece of writing in its current form. This topic could just as well be: ‘Did Zeus favour the Trojans?’ ‘Was Moby Dick really a whale?’

    As with those topics, the accuracy of the information is unimportant. So, do you think that the text of the Bible actually says anywhere that God is Jesus? If so, can you point it out? Your post is very cluttered, and your point is extremely hidden.

    Anyway... I'm not sure where I'm going with the rest of this.


    Regards,
    Rv. Jon
    :-)
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  28. #128  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth1010
    Messiah = messiah, not God.

    Christ = christ, not God.

    King = king, not God.

    At no point does jesus say he is God. Ever or at anytime.

    The scriptures ive posted are a strong and clear case for this. There are many more scriptures i can post.
    Let me put more logic into your childish correlation there:

    Christ = messiah who the bible says will be the son of god.

    King = Christ's position to numerous things (metaphorical in some aspects as well), whereas god (having a title higher than him obviously) is higher.

    Jesus is most obviously not god.
    The bible says that Messiah is God:
    Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
    Only God existed from everlasting.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    IJohn 5:7 (King James version) For there are three that bear record in
    heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
    one.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
    the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us,
    In the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus’ name is the Word of God.
    Revelation 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    The Bible refers to Jesus as the Word that was made flesh and dwelt
    amongst us. In IJohn 5:7, the "Word" in that passage is referring to
    Jesus. -and it says the Word was God, in John 1:1. In the account of the baptism of Jesus in Luke 3:21, 22, you can
    see all three members of the trinity existing separately at the same
    time.
    Luke 3:21,22 ...that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven
    was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove
    upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou Art My beloved
    Son; in thee I am well pleased.
    The Father spoke from heaven, while Jesus the man was on Earth and the
    Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape as a dove. Three separate
    persons. The phrase " these three are one" in IJohn 5:7 means this.
    Definition of the word one: The American Heritage Dictionary
    ONE: 1. being a single entity, unit
    2. characterized by unity; of a single kind or nature; undivided:
    with one accord.
    The use of the word One in IJohn 5:7 is using it according to this
    definition number 2. It means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost
    have a unity, they have the same nature and they act with one accord.
    That is how "these three are one".

    The use of the word ONE in 1John 5:7 is not numerical one.
    The definition of ONE in that verse is this:
    of a single nature, undivided, with one accord. Get a big dictionary and look up the word ONE.


    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    You see 2:6. Jesus existed as equal with God the Father before He became a man. And after His resurection Jesus said that:
    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
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  29. #129  
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    Each of the scriptures presented so far were given with some bias. I'm going to write (at length) interpretations of them that I believe would make more sense.

    While halfway through it I saw a scripture that I believe deals a death blow to the entire concept:

    Matthew 28:18
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Has been given. Meaning he originally did not have it. Meaning...well, got doesn't exactly have to be Given authority, now does he?

    If that isn't enough evidence, in scripture form, as to why Jesus is not God, then I don't know what to think.


    Quote Originally Posted by ghost7584
    The bible says that Messiah is God:
    “ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
    Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
    The One to be Ruler in Israel,
    Whose goings forth are from of old,
    From everlasting.”
    I'm changing your archaic grammar scriptures with the NKJV.

    This indicates a leader, not god himself. Nor does it say the Messiah is God. In fact it proves my stance that Jesus was not god, but merely someone sent from god (his son, indicated by a "one ruler").

    The only problematic part of the scripture here is when it says "from everlasting". This is quite a grammatical mishap English wise, since it cuts everything short without a descriptor. It's left open to interpretation.

    On the one hand, God has said he is everlasting. On the other hand, it is never mentioned when exactly God created the angels. Perhaps he created them before there was "time", and thus they became everlasting? Angels don't exactly die, so they are indeed everlasting.

    Interpreting it as him saying he himself will come is a bit narrow.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Once against I fail to see how this means God. It says "unto us a Son is given" (god gave them his only begotten son), which specifically proves that Jesus was not God.

    His names were precisely what they called him. They even went so far as to call him Everlasting Father and Mighty God (he, in turn, did correct such behavior in later scriptures I believe. He always required tribute be paid to God, not himself).

    1 Timothy 3:16
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

    God[c] was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.
    Now this part takes a bit of thinking. Why is that translated as though it was poetry? Translation really could use marks to suggest things like that.

    On the other hand...the online bible I'm using gives this footnote:

    >>footnote C: # 1 Timothy 3:16 NU-Text reads Who.<<

    That clears it up, don't you think? If it was in fact mistranslated as "God", then you actually have translator error once again. In fact to me "who" makes more sense in-context, as a reminder to those who might have forgotten who did such things.

    Matthew 28:18
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Has been given. Meaning he originally did not have it. Meaning...well, got doesn't exactly have to be Given authority, now does he?

    IJohn 5:7 (King James version) For there are three that bear record in
    heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
    one.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
    the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us,

    In the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus’ name is the Word of God.

    Revelation 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    The word of god. And? Jesus is the Word of God. That's not surprising! Jesus was the first angel created (proven by this string of scriptures). In fact previously I didn't understand what "The word" was. Thanks for clearing that up.

    The Bible refers to Jesus as the Word that was made flesh and dwelt
    amongst us. In I John 5:7, the "Word" in that passage is referring to
    Jesus. -and it says the Word was God, in John 1:1. In the account of the baptism of Jesus in Luke 3:21, 22, you can
    see all three members of the trinity existing separately at the same
    time.
    You interpret this just as you do scriptures when it says "I and the father are "one"". Does it really mean one? No. It's a metaphorical meaning proven by context.

    It states the word was with god as well. You can't ignore the context and rip out the one part you want. What it is describing, I believe, is the creation of Jesus, their synonymous nature, and how close they are. To the point of where Jesus was "one" with his father. This backs up Jesus's later statement that "I and the father are one".

    Of course, once again, you must be aware of possible translation errors.


    Luke 3:21,22
    21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.
    22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
    The Father spoke from heaven, while Jesus the man was on Earth and the
    Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape as a dove. Three separate
    persons. The phrase " these three are one" in means this.
    I John 5:6-8 (provided by Jeremyhfht)
    6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[b] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
    Once again, you ignore context (why the hell do so many bible users do this?!).

    It goes so far as to define what the Holy Spirit is here. The Holy Spirit is TRUTH. Not an entity, so when the Holy Spirit came upon him, it was the truth that came upon him.

    Once again, that "one" is there. Later in scripture 8 it provides evidence that it is again metaphorical by saying "these three agree as one".

    Problem solved.

    Definition of the word one: The American Heritage Dictionary
    ONE: 1. being a single entity, unit
    2. characterized by unity; of a single kind or nature; undivided:
    with one accord.
    Characterized by UNITY. Which is what scripture 8 proves the definition means. Unity. Unity of ideas no less, since they are all in agreement.

    This does not say unity of entity.

    The use of the word One in IJohn 5:7 is using it according to this
    definition number 2. It means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost
    have a unity, they have the same nature and they act with one accord.
    That is how "these three are one".

    The use of the word ONE in 1John 5:7 is not numerical one.
    The definition of ONE in that verse is this:
    of a single nature, undivided, with one accord. Get a big dictionary and look up the word ONE.
    I'm done looking up your scriptures in regards to 1st John, I've already proven it's metaphorical by looking at the context.

    Philippians 2:5-8
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    Being in the form of god...doesn't say he is god. Equal to God, but not God.

    I fail to see how that proves anything.

    You see 2:6. Jesus existed as equal with God the Father before He became a man. And after His resurection Jesus said that:
    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    I've already explained that.

    Therefore, Case Closed.
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  30. #130  
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    Is Jesus God?

    Do we decide that, or does he?

    If we decide, then it is by our faith, ultimately, in having him hold more keys of understanding than us..........of power............because he was the most trusted........someone we could rely on........the most transparent and honest.........as his words would hold.

    If he decides, we would have thrown our choice away.......squandered everything.........leaving him no choice but to exert authority.
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  31. #131  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    Is Jesus God?

    Do we decide that, or does he?
    we do as jesus is our construct, a fabrication cannot make decisions, surely you new that.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    If we decide, then it is by our faith,
    how, we can imagine whatever we wish it has nothing to do with faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    ultimately, in having him hold more keys of understanding than us..........of power............because he was the most trusted........someone we could rely on........the most transparent and honest.........as his words would hold.
    we can make him/it whatever we wish him/it to be, he/it is but a concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    If he decides, we would have thrown our choice away.......squandered everything.........leaving him no choice but to exert authority.
    and how does a construct do that, it would be a hell of a feat.
    you do have a strange imagination.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    In this day and age, it is at time such to be a pathetic choice to think a construct would consider there is a KING of great purpose (one of your "construct representatives")............sadly............the "official monarchs".

    So, obviously, for us to squander it all, either our KINGDOMS have become truly, dare the term be said, "unworthy", or we should more rightly observe the "mysteries" of his, as you would term it, "construct".

    A mystery for you (even), in one day finding the truth, would be not realising the obviousness of it (the mystery.....as a truth).

    (You don't need things spelt out for you though.........no one does).

    I agree.......Jesus gave himself to everyone...........yet to become a "construct", a "construct"(?), you obviously (in using such a term) decided how far you would take the issue.........besides the fact the issue has more purpose than your own "agenda" of "constructs".

    Do you not think it wise that you need (some) more parenting before you go out on your own......like this.....in a world presumably Christ has not given up on?

    Given your image, though, your parents have taught you much.
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  33. #133  
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    Does anyone speak the fabled language known as English anymore? So far all I see is half-hearted attempts at something slightly resembling English.

    Oh, also sense. Intelligence maybe, but that might be too much to hope for.
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  34. #134  
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    Here here.

    Yet I do find more value in understanding the wisdom of Latin beyond the limited "leveled" understanding of "English" if the case may prove correct sovereignty in that (english) dialect is misplaced.

    .....hence the "latin" construction of word use..........which you may find "foreign"?

    (latin is usually, to most minds, the fore-runner of english verbatim of the so-called, as it would seem, "construct faith").
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  35. #135  
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Jeremyhfht" and ghost 7584 wrote parts of this.
    Each of the scriptures presented so far were given with some bias. I'm going to write (at length) interpretations of them that I believe would make more sense.

    While halfway through it I saw a scripture that I believe deals a death blow to the entire concept:

    Matthew 28:18
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Has been given. Meaning he originally did not have it. Meaning...well, got doesn't exactly have to be Given authority, now does he?

    He existed as God before He became a man. When He became a man He existed as the son of God, relying on the power of God the Father and the Holy Spirit to do the miracles. It was to teach us to do the same. After His resurrection His power as God was restored to Him. He now sits on a thrown in heaven and has the power of God, along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
    God the father is God. The Word of God (who became Jesus) is God. The Spirit of God, is also God.


    Quote Originally Posted by ghost7584
    The bible says that Messiah is God:
    “ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
    Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
    The One to be Ruler in Israel,
    Whose goings forth are from of old,
    From everlasting.”
    I'm changing your archaic grammar scriptures with the NKJV.

    The real original unaltered texts are the massoretic text old testament and textus receptus new testament. The King James is translated from these.
    Mostly all modern versions, including the nkjv are influenced by corrupt manuscripts from Alexandria Egypt, changed in the 4th century, in which words were added/deleted and changed in about 5% of important places.
    [Over 200 fake bibles on the market with the words changed. They were changed the the manuscripts that the translations were done from.]
    Use the real bible, the King James version, or we have nothing to discuss.
    You can read something about the problem of currupted bibles at this website. online gospel tract
    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp


    This indicates a leader, not god himself. Nor does it say the Messiah is God. In fact it proves my stance that Jesus was not god, but merely someone sent from god (his son, indicated by a "one ruler").

    The only problematic part of the scripture here is when it says "from everlasting". This is quite a grammatical mishap English wise, since it cuts everything short without a descriptor. It's left open to interpretation.

    On the one hand, God has said he is everlasting. On the other hand, it is never mentioned when exactly God created the angels. Perhaps he created them before there was "time", and thus they became everlasting? Angels don't exactly die, so they are indeed everlasting.

    If angels were created at all, then they were not from everlasting.
    Jesus, the Messiah existed as the Word of God from everlasting, and He also was God.

    Interpreting it as him saying he himself will come is a bit narrow.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Once against I fail to see how this means God. It says "unto us a Son is given" (god gave them his only begotten son), which specifically proves that Jesus was not God.

    His names were precisely what they called him. They even went so far as to call him Everlasting Father and Mighty God (he, in turn, did correct such behavior in later scriptures I believe. He always required tribute be paid to God, not himself).

    No, He did not correct such behaviour. Doubting Thomas, after he felt the side and hands of Jesus, said, My Lord and my God. Thomas called Jesus that, and Jesus did not correct him.

    John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.



    1 Timothy 3:16
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

    God[c] was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.
    Now this part takes a bit of thinking. Why is that translated as though it was poetry? Translation really could use marks to suggest things like that.

    On the other hand...the online bible I'm using gives this footnote:

    >>footnote C: # 1 Timothy 3:16 NU-Text reads Who.<<

    That clears it up, don't you think? If it was in fact mistranslated as "God", then you actually have translator error once again. In fact to me "who" makes more sense in-context, as a reminder to those who might have forgotten who did such things.

    Again: Use the real bible, the king james version or we have nothing to discuss.
    God only wrote one bible, by the hands of those men He chose.
    When you change the words, then it is not the inspired words of the original authors anymore.

    Matthew 28:18
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    Has been given. Meaning he originally did not have it. Meaning...well, got doesn't exactly have to be Given authority, now does he?

    again: He existed as God before He became a man. He existed as the son of God while He was a man before his resurrection. After His resurection, He is in a glorified body [that can pass through walls and disappear like angels do.] and His power as God is restored to Him again.

    IJohn 5:7 (King James version) For there are three that bear record in
    heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
    one.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
    the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us,

    In the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus’ name is the Word of God.

    Revelation 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    The word of god. And? Jesus is the Word of God. That's not surprising! Jesus was the first angel created (proven by this string of scriptures). In fact previously I didn't understand what "The word" was. Thanks for clearing that up.

    The Bible refers to Jesus as the Word that was made flesh and dwelt
    amongst us. In I John 5:7, the "Word" in that passage is referring to
    Jesus. -and it says the Word was God, in John 1:1. In the account of the baptism of Jesus in Luke 3:21, 22, you can
    see all three members of the trinity existing separately at the same
    time.
    You interpret this just as you do scriptures when it says "I and the father are "one"". Does it really mean one? No. It's a metaphorical meaning proven by context.

    It states the word was with god as well. You can't ignore the context and rip out the one part you want. What it is describing, I believe, is the creation of Jesus, their synonymous nature, and how close they are. To the point of where Jesus was "one" with his father. This backs up Jesus's later statement that "I and the father are one".

    Of course, once again, you must be aware of possible translation errors.


    Luke 3:21,22
    21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.
    22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
    The Father spoke from heaven, while Jesus the man was on Earth and the
    Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape as a dove. Three separate
    persons. The phrase " these three are one" in means this.
    I John 5:6-8 (provided by Jeremyhfht)
    6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[b] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
    Once again, you ignore context (why the hell do so many bible users do this?!).

    It goes so far as to define what the Holy Spirit is here. The Holy Spirit is TRUTH. Not an entity, so when the Holy Spirit came upon him, it was the truth that came upon him.

    Once again, that "one" is there. Later in scripture 8 it provides evidence that it is again metaphorical by saying "these three agree as one".

    Problem solved.

    Definition of the word one: The American Heritage Dictionary
    ONE: 1. being a single entity, unit
    2. characterized by unity; of a single kind or nature; undivided:
    with one accord.
    Characterized by UNITY. Which is what scripture 8 proves the definition means. Unity. Unity of ideas no less, since they are all in agreement.

    This does not say unity of entity.

    The use of the word One in IJohn 5:7 is using it according to this
    definition number 2. It means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost
    have a unity, they have the same nature and they act with one accord.
    That is how "these three are one".

    The use of the word ONE in 1John 5:7 is not numerical one.
    The definition of ONE in that verse is this:
    of a single nature, undivided, with one accord. Get a big dictionary and look up the word ONE.
    I'm done looking up your scriptures in regards to 1st John, I've already proven it's metaphorical by looking at the context.

    Philippians 2:5-8
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    Being in the form of god...doesn't say he is god. Equal to God, but not God.
    Being in the form of God does mean that. No one can be equal to God and not God.

    I fail to see how that proves anything.


    You see 2:6. Jesus existed as equal with God the Father before He became a man. And after His resurection Jesus said that:
    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    I've already explained that.

    Therefore, Case Closed.
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  36. #136  
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    After reviewing your personality based upon your response, I find it useless to continue, as even if I was correct you wouldn't sway your opinion.

    Therefore, I relinquish any debate.
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  37. #137  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    In this day and age, it is at time such to be a pathetic choice to think a construct would consider there is a KING of great purpose (one of your "construct representatives")............sadly............the "official monarchs".
    what!
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    So, obviously, for us to squander it all, either our KINGDOMS have become truly, dare the term be said, "unworthy", or we should more rightly observe the "mysteries" of his, as you would term it, "construct".
    again, What!
    There is no his, it is a mere concept, a construct, a fantasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    A mystery for you (even), in one day finding the truth, would be not realising the obviousness of it (the mystery.....as a truth).
    how can you get truth from a fantasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    (You don't need things spelt out for you though.........no one does).
    I agree.......Jesus gave himself to everyone...........yet to become a "construct", a "construct"(?), you obviously (in using such a term) decided how far you would take the issue.........besides the fact the issue has more purpose than your own "agenda" of "constructs".
    What! can you please, at least try to make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    Do you not think it wise that you need (some) more parenting before you go out on your own......like this.....in a world presumably Christ has not given up on?
    christ does not exist, what you believe is purely subjective, a construct within your own mind.
    Personal attacks, shows a failing in you, and a weakness in your argument.
    Try to debate the issue not the person.
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    Given your image, though, your parents have taught you much.
    the image is of my son, and yes he grows wiser by the minute.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  38. #138  
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    Many apologies, my translator who also couples as my partner has misinterpreted you.

    I must be off.

    Just quickly, though, do you find what you call a construct "useful"? Are you a "user"? Has it any uses?
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  39. #139  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    Many apologies, my translator who also couples as my partner has misinterpreted you.

    I must be off.

    Just quickly, though, do you find what you call a construct "useful"? Are you a "user"? Has it any uses?
    An idea you build/construct in you head from information you've gathered is, without evidence purely subjective, a fantasy, it is not truth, it can never be deemed as truth.
    so to answer you question, is it useful does it have it uses, yes of course, it helps you come to a logical and reasonable conclusion, and it becomes even better if the idea you constructed vie evidence, can be formulated into an objective one.
    So yes you could call me a user when it comes to using ideas.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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    I understand what you mean, now.
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  41. #141  
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    Jesus is GOD in human flesh. He is therefore The Son Of GOD. Don't forget Jesus was created by GOD, therefore Jesus can both be GOD and the Son of GOD, He is both the same, don't forget this either, time is not linear, especially to the all knowing GOD Almighty. Therefore GOD can be in two places at once, in Jesus as Jesus and watching His Son on Earth.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  42. #142  
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    Thank you *insert profanity* that didn't read any of this thread whatsoever nor contribute to anything but an already beaten dead horse.

    Next time, don't revive dead topics because you apparently think you're already heavily-covered opinion means anything. Perhaps you'd care to contribute to content rather than stupidity?

    To be fair, it is 10 pages long, but even the most misanthropist reader would at least read the first page (arguably that's enough to drive them away).
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