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  1. #1 kane and abel 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Old testament

    The idea that human race started with Adam and Eve also comes from this book. This notion gives rise to several uncomfortable questions. Were the first few generations of the human race brought about by incest? Genesis says that Adam and Eve had two sons - Kane and Abel. Abel was killed by Cain after some dispute. Cain then married a woman, whose identity has not been revealed in the Old Testament

    Who was Cain's wife? It can only be assumed that she was Cain's sister! If it wasn't a sister, then it must have been his mother. If it was not his mother or his sister, then she did not evolve from Adam and Eve. This contradicts the original assumption that EVERYONE came from Mr. & Mrs. Adam.


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    Well as an evolutionary creationist, I cannot speak my point of view without violating the presumptions of this discussion, because I do not accept the premise that Adam and Eve were the only members of their biological species on the planet. I do not believe that the human race is primarily a biological one, but a mental one. I think that Adam and Eve were not created by magic but had biological progenators, but that their real parent who raised them up as human beings, was God.

    For the Christians out there:

    Genesis 6: 1-2 "Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose."

    I do not agree with the interpretation that says that these "sons of God" were angels, but believe that the "sons of God" refers to the sons of Adam and Eve.


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    but isn't this in genesis, about eve "because she was the mother of all living"

    surely this would only lead to incest
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    This isn't my answer, I found it while looking for something else.........

    But it made me chuckle so here it is:

    They had many sons and daughters so all the brothers had sex with their sisters and had more sons and daughters and cousins so the cousins had sex with their brothers, sisters, and cousins from the other side of the family and now all the grand kids are doing each other and nieces and nephews are getting it on... And the bible wants us to believe THIS is how life on earth started? No thanks!!! I sleep better at night knowing boy monkeys had sex with girl monkeys and neither one were related to each other.
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    Relative wrote...

    No thanks!!! I sleep better at night knowing boy monkeys had sex with girl monkeys and neither one were related to each other.
    So separate monkeys evolved at the same time from separate parents in the same vacinity. Talk about chance.

    Id rather accept god created us and we have a meaning. My life means something and the fact that i face up to the truth is a good thing for me. For those who fight the truth its your life you are wasting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth1010
    Relative wrote...

    No thanks!!! I sleep better at night knowing boy monkeys had sex with girl monkeys and neither one were related to each other.
    So separate monkeys evolved at the same time from separate parents in the same vacinity. Talk about chance.

    Id rather accept god created us and we have a meaning. My life means something and the fact that i face up to the truth is a good thing for me. For those who fight the truth its your life you are wasting.
    Your mistake is in thinking that if people don't find your meaning and in exactly the same way that you do then they don't find any meaning at all. There are a lot of people who not only see the same essential meaning in life that you do, but they also see a great deal more than you do. So the question is not why do you need to see meaning in your life but why does the meaning you see in your life require you to believe that everyone else does not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    but isn't this in genesis, about eve "because she was the mother of all living"

    surely this would only lead to incest
    I don't know if that is in the Bible or not, but Eve was not the mother of all that is living. She is the mother of the human race, but the inheritance which makes us human is not a genetic one.
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    its from genesis chapter 3:20

    im using an online bible thats set to "entire bible" hope that helps, dont know my way around it, which is old and new etc. full quote is


    20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living
    I not asking this question as a anti-bible question. and the outcomes not going top suddenly make me disbelieve evolution and turn to religion. But its quite a famous argument/point and interesting from that point :-D
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  10. #9 Re: kane and abel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Old testament

    The idea that human race started with Adam and Eve also comes from this book. This notion gives rise to several uncomfortable questions. Were the first few generations of the human race brought about by incest? Genesis says that Adam and Eve had two sons - Kane and Abel. Abel was killed by Cain after some dispute. Cain then married a woman, whose identity has not been revealed in the Old Testament

    Who was Cain's wife? It can only be assumed that she was Cain's sister! If it wasn't a sister, then it must have been his mother. If it was not his mother or his sister, then she did not evolve from Adam and Eve. This contradicts the original assumption that EVERYONE came from Mr. & Mrs. Adam.


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    genesis. 4:14

    Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
    4:15

    And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
    4:16

    And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
    4:17

    And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
    Was Nod a land filled with Cain's brothers and sisters?
    Why does it not mention that Cain brought his/a sister with him?
    Did Cain build the new city all by himself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    its from genesis chapter 3:20

    im using an online bible thats set to "entire bible" hope that helps, dont know my way around it, which is old and new etc. full quote is


    20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living
    I not asking this question as a anti-bible question. and the outcomes not going top suddenly make me disbelieve evolution and turn to religion. But its quite a famous argument/point and interesting from that point :-D
    In ancient times, "mother" had various meanings (still does even today).
    From other scriptoral sources, Adam was a viceroy, this would make Eve queen-like, and as such would be given the title "mother".

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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    its from genesis chapter 3:20

    im using an online bible thats set to "entire bible" hope that helps, dont know my way around it, which is old and new etc. full quote is


    20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living
    I not asking this question as a anti-bible question. and the outcomes not going top suddenly make me disbelieve evolution and turn to religion. But its quite a famous argument/point and interesting from that point :-D
    But you missed my point. The question is what does "mother of all living" mean since clearly the sheep were alive but Eve was not their mother in a biological sense. Therefore if Eve was the "mother of all living" in any biological sense, it meant that she was the mother of all human beings (as I said). But then there is the matter of what distinguishes human beings from the animals, and again as I said, it is not a genetic inheritance but an inheritance of mind which Adam and Eve had from God.
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  13. #12  
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    Im looking at how the bible writes it

    surely either way, cain's wife must have been his sister or some other relation unless he used a rib up too :wink:


    The eve quote. i assumed she was the mother of all humans, not animals. i honestly think its not the best thought out story

    Are there people out there who still take this as truth? how does this explain the different races of man? eg the mongoloids with the extra part of skin around their eyes which give the classic asian eye shape etc. negroid, australoids etc skin colours and facial features, eye colour. hair colours etc etc
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    i hate when this topic is brought up... adam and eve werent the only people created by god, adam and eve were the only people created in the garden of eden. eden wasnt limited to the garden, and the world wasnt limited to eden. everythign else was known as "the wasteland" where other people lived in tribes and were left to think for themselves. which is how there were people who didnt know about god until later in time. when adam and eve were expelled from the garden they had kane and abel. kane killed his brother abel and went to live with the wasteland people, adam and even went on to have more children, only one other was a boy, seth, who went out to expore the wasteland and returned with a wife breedign teh race of seth. the race of seth was the godly race wherein the race of kane was a heathen race that god hoped to erase with the flood, however yonah, a woman of the race of seth was brought ont eh arc as japheth's ( a son of noah) wife.
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    Crab: You just contradicted an all-just god.

    Plus, the entire earth was made a garden (the bible says this). What god basically did was kick them out of the tree area, and make the planet desolate.

    also, you commit one of the sins: You added to the bible what isn't there.

    Good job. 8)
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabbattle72
    i hate when this topic is brought up... adam and eve werent the only people created by god, adam and eve were the only people created in the garden of eden. eden wasnt limited to the garden, and the world wasnt limited to eden. everythign else was known as "the wasteland" where other people lived in tribes and were left to think for themselves. which is how there were people who didnt know about god until later in time. when adam and eve were expelled from the garden they had kane and abel. kane killed his brother abel and went to live with the wasteland people, adam and even went on to have more children, only one other was a boy, seth, who went out to expore the wasteland and returned with a wife breedign teh race of seth. the race of seth was the godly race wherein the race of kane was a heathen race that god hoped to erase with the flood, however yonah, a woman of the race of seth was brought ont eh arc as japheth's ( a son of noah) wife.
    Aha! - I was taught at school that God created man and called him Adam -(cos god was lonely) then from his[adam's] rib he createed Eve] - I guess all these guys in the 'wasteland' evolved from some sort of protoplasmic primeordial soup - Now if I could just remember the name of that theory.....

    Well from what you've written I'd say somebody sat down with a papyrus and scribe and thought to himself "I wonder if I can fool some of the people all of the time".
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    adding to the bible what there wasnt is a sin, but the bible is also incomplete, there were pages of the bible found under the floors of the vatican containing i believe 100 pages of lost information, the "Stories" of teh bible are little more than stories, and stories told in church hold just as much water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Crab: You just contradicted an all-just god.

    Plus, the entire earth was made a garden (the bible says this). What god basically did was kick them out of the tree area, and make the planet desolate.

    also, you commit one of the sins: You added to the bible what isn't there.

    Good job. 8)
    We do not add to the Bible every time we open our mouths (or let our fingers do our talking) as long as we do not pretend that what we say has the same authority, and this of course only applies to those people who think the Bible has any authority.

    I certainly don't buy Crab's argument, and it overlooks the very points which you made earlier in this thread. Was Eve the mother of all living (human beings) or only those in a particular area. I agree with your further objection that Crab gives no explanation why some people are "in the garden" and some are not.

    I also don't buy this racist distinction between Cain and Seth. Are we supposed to believe that only Cain multiplied and filled the earth while the only descendent Seth had was Noah? Obviously not. Behavior is not a matter of race. Is the righteousness of Noah merely the purity of his bloodline? Don't make me vomit. I don't think we white people can blame all of our bad behavior on the idea that we are decended from Cain.
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    maybe i am wrong, but how can anyone say they they in particular are right in this matter, the best explaination i can give as to why some were in the garden and some arent is simply the will of god. either way, i withdraw my argument ont eh grounds that ive been disproved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    We do not add to the Bible every time we open our mouths (or let our fingers do our talking) as long as we do not pretend that what we say has the same authority, and this of course only applies to those people who think the Bible has any authority.
    true, but when you say something that's beyond interpretation in the bible and goes into the relms of ADDING to it, you do.
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    i guess so, most of what i said is just what i spoke about with a priest, and i wasnt prepared to say he was wrong at first
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    We do not add to the Bible every time we open our mouths (or let our fingers do our talking) as long as we do not pretend that what we say has the same authority, and this of course only applies to those people who think the Bible has any authority.
    true, but when you say something that's beyond interpretation in the bible and goes into the relms of ADDING to it, you do.
    If you say something is in the Bible that isn't there then that is the same as pretending what we say has the same authority, right? But I hardly think venturing our own opinion on the subject matter of the Bible constitutes adding to the Bible in of itself. I could venture the opinion that Eve was a brunette and I do not think I would be adding to the Bible unless I claimed that the Bible says Eve was a brunette. So just because someone offers an opinion to explain some difficulty in the Bible that does not mean he is adding to the Bible. Such an argument does not mean that the difficulty does not exist in the Bible, only that it is possible to come up with an explanation so that the difficulty in question is not an impossible one to resolve.
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  23. #22 Incest ? 
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    I dont believe in the adam and eve story.

    However, what is wrong with the idea of incest ?

    It happens all of the time in the animal kingdom as im sure it happened very often during the first few thousand years of human evolution.

    It doesnt happen anymore not only for legal reasons, but for biological reasons......that at sometime in the past the human species faced near extinction therefore we now lack the genetic diversity needed for both an incestous and genetically stable species.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  24. #23 Re: Incest ? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    I dont believe in the adam and eve story.

    However, what is wrong with the idea of incest ?

    It happens all of the time in the animal kingdom as im sure it happened very often during the first few thousand years of human evolution.

    It doesnt happen anymore not only for legal reasons, but for biological reasons......that at sometime in the past the human species faced near extinction therefore we now lack the genetic diversity needed for both an incestous and genetically stable species.

    What's wrong?

    It could end up leading to some very distorted threads.
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  25. #24 Re: Incest ? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins

    However, what is wrong with the idea of incest ?

    .

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    Crabapple said:

    adding to the bible what there wasnt is a sin, but the bible is also incomplete, there were pages of the bible found under the floors of the vatican containing i believe 100 pages of lost information
    I find this claim quite interesting in view of the fact that I have never heard about this before. If Crabby would be so kind as to point to a source of this information which might be inspected by others, it would be deeply appreciated. I would really like to know what that "lost" information was.
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    Yes, I too was intrigued by that and did a little looking on the net, what I found was that there are several references to 'lost' portions of the bible which appear in forums and articles by various authors publicising works 'discussing' some sort of conspiracy theory, I found nothing from any source I would regard as authoritative. I am not convinced.
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    I heard almost this same accusation from my Father but refering to the Gospel of Thomas, claiming that the Gnostics were the true Christians who believed in works and that divinity could be found in every human being. So the church supposedly excluded this gospel when the suppressed the "true" Christianity.

    So this is why I took the time to read the Gospel of Thomas myself. I found it confusing and unclear more than anything else. Not only was there no visible theme contradicting the Bible but there was no clear message at all. The eccumenical councils purportedly excluded it from the canon because it was Gnostic, but I suspect that no one bothered to defend it from the charge simply because most saw no value in it at all. Supposedly scholars see a tendency in the Gospel of Thomas to see something of the divine in all of us, centered around the saying of Jesus that, "the kingdom of God is within you." Well you do not have to go to the gospel of Thomas for that one because it is in Luke 17:21. So I guess people like to go to this Gospel of Thomas to avoid everything else in the gospel of Luke and to make up conspiracy theories.
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  29. #28 Re: kane and abel 
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    The idea that human race started with Adam and Eve also comes from this book. This notion gives rise to several uncomfortable questions. Were the first few generations of the human race brought about by incest? Genesis says that Adam and Eve had two sons - Kane and Abel. Abel was killed by Cain after some dispute. Cain then married a woman, whose identity has not been revealed in the Old Testament

    Who was Cain's wife? It can only be assumed that she was Cain's sister! If it wasn't a sister, then it must have been his mother. If it was not his mother or his sister, then she did not evolve from Adam and Eve. This contradicts the original assumption that EVERYONE came from Mr. & Mrs. Adam.
    Presuming this was true, it would also help to explain broken DNA.
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  30. #29 Re: kane and abel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)
    Who was Cain's wife? It can only be assumed that she was Cain's sister! If it wasn't a sister, then it must have been his mother. If it was not his mother or his sister, then she did not evolve from Adam and Eve. This contradicts the original assumption that EVERYONE came from Mr. & Mrs. Adam.
    Presuming this was true, it would also help to explain broken DNA.
    except for the fact, to my knowledge, none of cain's descendants survived the flood. Only Noah, who descended from adam and eve, did (as far as I know anyway, do correct me if I have this wrong).

    Plus, as far as genetic bottlenecking goes (where a population severely declines and thus leaves evidence in later genes that such an event happened), if only a handful of people mentioned in noah's ark (don't forget the fact the ark was too small for all the animals on the planet) would have caused such a great genetic bottleneck that the human race would definitely have severe (and recent) signs of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

    Also, as far as I know about genetics, it takes a leetle longer than...oh...a few thousand years to recover. Try around 100,000 years depending on the severity of the bottleneck (and, if it was down to a handful of people, I have no doubts estimations would be quite longer).

    So, quite frankly, after dwindling the planets population down, starting from only TWO humans with limited genes, and all of this happening within a supposed 5000 (4000?) year time frame (modern day, basing from biblical dates and creation dates, dates the planet at around 11,000 years).
    Ah yes, lets not forget the fact that this also supports evolution. You know, the whole clause about adapting and adding genetic material. How could a population recover from a population bottleneck if it didn't add new genes?

    /end half on/off topic rant
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    jeremy said:

    except for the fact, to my knowledge, none of cain's descendants survived the flood. Only Noah, who descended from adam and eve, did (as far as I know anyway, do correct me if I have this wrong).
    Well, it was Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives who would have survived the flood. If this is true, then all of mankind did descend from Adam and Eve.

    However, there are some Christians who do not view this story as a literal world wide flood event but, rather, a possible local flood. There are just too many detalis of this story which seem far too physically impossible to be literally true. It is, on the other hand, somewhat difficult to explain why this flood story seems to crop up in the folklore of several civilizations.
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    Actually, due to scientific evidence, and the fact that noah's ark is too small by a few football fields, that "some" is a growing number every day. Save for those heavily brainwashed by evangelists. Woo.

    However, there are a few explanations for that: Each of those civilizations have had flooding in the past (or live in an area prone to it). It's also common for lesser events to be portrayed in a much larger scale. You can't rule out "trade" either.
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  33. #32 Re: kane and abel 
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    Plus, as far as genetic bottlenecking goes (where a population severely declines and thus leaves evidence in later genes that such an event happened), if only a handful of people mentioned in noah's ark (don't forget the fact the ark was too small for all the animals on the planet) would have caused such a great genetic bottleneck that the human race would definitely have severe (and recent) signs of it.
    Also, as far as I know about genetics, it takes a leetle longer than...oh...a few thousand years to recover. Try around 100,000 years depending on the severity of the bottleneck (and, if it was down to a handful of people, I have no doubts estimations would be quite longer).
    I understand and agree with your post but there is some evidence about a population bottleneck some 45,000 years ago.
    It is believed that 99% of europes and therefor the worlds white population descended from the DNA of just seven women.

    As i understand it, genesis was written about 1400bc, and describe an impossibly short amount of time to paint my house let alone create the earth. I also think it was a case of exaggerating local storys, but until we can prove that god doesn't exist (or does :wink: )we will continue to have this pointless discussion.
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    Umm...sources for that bottleneck? I can't find one.

    Also, the bible interpretation suggests a biblical "day" to be a thousand years. So yeah.
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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/719376.stm

    http://www.oxfordancestors.com/your-maternal.html

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    "interpretation" being a key word.
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  36. #35  
    Guest
    Hmm...that isn't really a "total genetic bottleneck" so much as a few women moving into different territories. However I suppose in a way it is.
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