Thread: Why so much suffering in this world?

I think we have all asked why is there so many problems in this world?

Why doesnt god intervene?

Well the problems of this world are caused by people turning away from god,away from the bible and the sound reasoning of the bible.

Jesus said " the world is lieing in the power of the wicked one."

As catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, sikhs, hindus, athiests, evolutionists, nazi and communists all are part of this world. Adding to the problems of this world. Hatred and voilence, racism and injustice.

Only jehovahs witnesses refuse to be part of this devil ruled world. We are proud of this.

Jseus said " i am no part of this world and my people are no part of this world."

The reason for all the problems you see, is not god. Its the devil and those who turn away from god.

This video helps people to see... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrEYYKvsNE

http://www.watchtower.org/ Then look here for what god plans to do about the injustice of this world.

Well, I think people live better than they did a hundred years ago. And thanks to the progress in science, not religions.

Say that to a child thats been abused for others to watch via the technology of the internet.

Technolgy has improved many things. But life is still short and for millions very painfull. 70 years isnt that long to live. What with non jehovahs witnesses killing, raping and starving each other to death.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

I think we have all asked why is there so many problems in this world?

Because so many people are illogical, and schools suck!

Why doesnt god intervene?

He doesn't exist is a good response.

Well the problems of this world are caused by people turning away from god,away from the bible and the sound reasoning of the bible.

I read that from an awake before...in reality, most problems are CAUSED by the bible and god. Specifically psychological ones.

Jesus said " the world is lieing in the power of the wicked one."

LYING. LYING! Jeeze! Anyway, jesus never existed either. Evidence?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41687701731240

that guy is a wee arrogant, but whatever.

As catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, sikhs, hindus, athiests, evolutionists, nazi and communists all are part of this world. Adding to the problems of this world. Hatred and voilence, racism and injustice.

Actually, as stated prior, atheists and evolutionists cause the least problems. Even less than JW's (crime rate wise).

Only jehovahs witnesses refuse to be part of this devil ruled world. We are proud of this.

You brainwash children, distribute a lot of scientific half truths, lies, and lack of understanding, etc, and you aren't devil ruled? Sorry, but look at your quote about lying...

Jseus said " i am no part of this world and my people are no part of this world."

Again: You can't prove you are his people.

The reason for all the problems you see, is not god. Its the devil and those who turn away from god.

Thus far, those that turn away from god tend to be the most productive in society. Rather than end timers and the like.

This video helps people to see... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrEYYKvsNE

http://www.watchtower.org/ Then look here for what god plans to do about the injustice of this world.

...that video is a laugh riot.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Say that to a child thats been abused for others to watch via the technology of the internet.

Technolgy has improved many things. But life is still short and for millions very painfull. 70 years isnt that long to live. What with non jehovahs witnesses killing, raping and starving each other to death.

Actually, JW's do it as well. Atheists are, once again, the least likely to do any of the above according to crime rating reports.

Jeremy you are obviously wrong. Jw cause very few crimes. Most of the people in the uk are athiest they cause more problems than the whole jw congregations world wide.

In germany when hitler took over the catholics and protestants huried to support him. Jehovahs winnesses refused to follow this evil man. We are gods people. Not the people of the world.

Maybe we should swop msn and you can tell me why you hate jw. I know there are bad people who can infiltrate the congregations and hurt people or turn people awya from god. Maybe youve met these apostates, i have. Maybe they have left you with a bad opinion of jw.

But simply hating us when clearly we arent part of this world makes little sense.

If anyone wants to chat poeronally, ill try to answer any questions about jehovahs witnesses. Then simply pm me with youre msn.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jeremy you are obviously wrong. Jw cause very few crimes. Most of the people in the uk are athiest they cause more problems than the whole jw congregations world wide.

Yeah...umm...incorrect?

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rib.html
Christian3 42 079 71.6
No religion3 9 104 15.5

Yeah, the UK is TOTALLY mostly atheist. Not.

In germany when hitler took over the catholics and protestants huried to support him. Jehovahs winnesses refused to follow this evil man. We are gods people. Not the people of the world.

...and? This isn't event relivent. Furthermore, the JW's weren't the only people to resist. Unless you want to ignore the thousands of people never mentioned of differing religions that didn't support him...

Also, some JW's chose to renounce their faith and support hitler. There isn't anything special about it.

Maybe we should swop msn and you can tell me why you hate jw. I know there are bad people who can infiltrate the congregations and hurt people or turn people awya from god. Maybe youve met these apostates, i have. Maybe they have left you with a bad opinion of jw.

*sigh* You are making a futile attempt to direct the conversation at "well you hate the JW's so you are WRONG!" Nothing I've said so far is hate, it may be assumptions, it may be wrong assumptions, but hate is a word not to be tossed around.

But simply hating us when clearly we arent part of this world makes little sense.
If anyone wants to chat poeronally, ill try to answer any questions about jehovahs witnesses. Then simply pm me with youre msn.

Why? Why don't you answer them here?

the problems of this world are caused by people turning away from god

That is true, all of you who fail to worship and pray to God, that is Thor, the god of thunder, the only God worthy of being named simply God, are responsible for the worlds problems.

Did you pray to Thor? No? Thats why there was an Hurricane. Do you accept Thor is the only God and that all religions are Blasphemers? Not yet? Thats why there's cancer. If you would only worship Venus there would no longer be climat change or droughts or famines. Earthquakes occur when there isnt sufficient faith in Thor, geology shmeeology. Birth defects, radon radiation, poverty, disease, they can all be made to go away magically if you simply worship God, the true god of course, Mighty Thor!

Worshipers of THor have not comminted any crimes in the past century.
The people that have worked to find cures for various disease, penecilyn, vaccines, they dont deserve any credit, as we know its the worshipers of thor that while doing nothing pray for Thor to give those other guys the cures by magic.

You must pray toThor, here the prayer you must recite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q631u...elated&search=

Indeed the problems of this world are caused by people turning away from Thor!

See this is where J'hoovers witnesses really bother me. they preach about how good they are but are willing to let their children suffer with terrible illness's and die because of not giving blood or transplant organs

Thats pretty sick on its own. You'd rather watch you kids suffer than do the right thing and it doesn't matter what you say thats just wrong


But i suppose posting on here is better than knocking on my door over and over again. I should put a sign up saying "no JW's please, we love our children in this house and would do ANYTHING to protect them"

I know this might be considered blasphemous but here goes, After a terrific party one night, Thor awoke with a blinder of a headache, as he turned over he noticed a beautiful goddess lying next to hime in his bed, "Hello" he said, " I'm Thor" to which she replied " I can't pith either".

Truth, Lighten up, what do you think of "The Life of Brian"?

Jeremy im not going to enter a personal arguement, but yes you were wrong.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rib....y%20Attendance

The number of chruch goers is about 3 million, the number of athiests 9 million. The stats you yourself showed prove this. You have to be active in a religion to be part of a religion.

Jeremy you did claim that jw commited more crime than athiests, we clearly dont.

More people have died through having blood that by not having blood.

Jehovahs witnesses truely care for our children, hence we refuse to teach our children lies. We dont fill their heads with stories of easter bunnies or santa, abuse them on the internet, tell them theres no meaning to life as evolutionists do.

We refuse blood because the bible states we should and its not a good thing for humans to drink one anothers blood.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

More people have died through having blood that by not having blood.

Would you care to substantiate this claim, I suggest if it were even remotely true then blood transfusions would simply not be a part of modern medical practice.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jeremy im not going to enter a personal arguement, but yes you were wrong.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rib....y%20Attendance

The number of chruch goers is about 3 million, the number of athiests 9 million. The stats you yourself showed prove this. You have to be active in a religion to be part of a religion.

...WTF? So basically, an atheist is someone who doesn't go to church? Have you *Lost your ever living mind*?!?! A church goer doesn't mean you are religious, I know numerous atheists that go to churches for entertainment.

The statistics I showed gave the population of religious, and those that go to church. It doesn't in any way prove me wrong.

Jeremy you did claim that jw commited more crime than athiests, we clearly dont.

A statistic I gave on another post proves so. Since there are more JW's in US prisons than atheists. I was speaking on a crime scale, on a global war scale, it's nearly impossible to pinpoint an actual religion or belief. Since cases like hitler are vague, and numerous others tend to be religious in some way.

More people have died through having blood that by not having blood.

Actually, this is a lie. Moreso of one in recent years, since the technology for detecting problems has improved, and thousands/millions of people are saved every day. If more people DIED than SURVIVED the treatment, they wouldn't use it very often if at all.

Jehovahs witnesses truely care for our children, hence we refuse to teach our children lies. We dont fill their heads with stories of easter bunnies or santa, abuse them on the internet, tell them theres no meaning to life as evolutionists do.

Wow....that's the most self defeating statement I'll ever read. The predominant amount of those stories are, in fact, for the childs own entertainment. And holidays are celebrated for the enjoyment, or nobody would do it. Similar to Winter-Een-Mas and other non-official holidays as well.

However, the fact you believe you aren't lying is truely tragic. That is where the brainwashing begins. If you teach a child, you should teach them in a skeptical manner and allow them to inevitably decide. If you teach them like you are telling the truth, and all others are lying, they will very rarely think otherwise (hence brainwashing).
Also, in doing so, you do lie to your children.

Furthermore, what abuse on the internet? Care to explain?

And once again: evolutionists usually have the view that everybody decides their own purpose. A "grand purpose" is a philosophical paradox that ends in a logical fallacy. Speaking of which maybe I'll start a thread in the philosophy section...

We refuse blood because the bible states we should and its not a good thing for humans to drink one anothers blood.

umm...difference: Drinking blood does almost nothing for your body (sans a few complications like the blood trying in your throat, you getting sick, etc)

A blood transfusion, however, differs since it has the goal of saving anothers life. Whereas drinking it would basically do nothing. Drinking and transfusing are entirely different actions.

If you drink blood with the hiv virus in then youll get the hiv virus. Many people have got aids and other diseases by drinking or injecting other peoples blood.

Dont diliberately mis quote people. More people have died by having blood than by not having blood. I did not say more died having it than survived.

Strawman arguements are not allowed on forums.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

If you drink blood with the hiv virus in then youll get the hiv virus. Many people have got aids and other diseases by drinking or injecting other peoples blood.

...and how do you think they TEST for HIV and such? DUH! by examining the blood! The cases where HIV gets past detection is very low. So low, it definitely doesn't outweigh the good.

Dont diliberately mis quote people. More people have died by having blood than by not having blood. I did not say more died having it than survived.

...umm...that would be because...you know...most injuries don't require blood to ensure some amount of success? Those severe cases in which blood is required tends to ensure survival, and many who refuse blood end up dying. Occasionally you hear reports of those who survived (mostly JW's) by not taking blood, but these always turn a blind eye to the masses of those who did not take bloood and died (again, mostly JW's).

Strawman arguements are not allowed on forums.

Have you READ half the posts you make? The predominant amount of them ARE straw man arguments.

There are many non blood treatments out there. We appreciate the doctors that use them. They have saved lives and progressed medical knowledge.

Blood has even in modern countries been found to have not been checked properly and many diseases have been spread.

If for example...during ww2 jehovahs witnesses had said ok well follow hitler. We would not have been killed or tortured. But we would have lost our relationship with god.

Im glad as jehovahs witnesses we stick close to gods wise teachings and not follow man made religions into apostacy, and short lived survival.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

There are many non blood treatments out there. We appreciate the doctors that use them. They have saved lives and progressed medical knowledge.

Yes, we know, but there are instances where blood is the only possible thing to use. most doctors will use alternatives before wasting it.

Blood has even in modern countries been found to have not been checked properly and many diseases have been spread.

um...when?

If for example...during ww2 jehovahs witnesses had said ok well follow hitler. We would not have been killed or tortured. But we would have lost our relationship with god.

...umm....is this even relevant?

Im glad as jehovahs witnesses we stick close to gods wise teachings and not follow man made religions into apostacy, and short lived survival.

....this isn't even worth typing anymore...

Sorry that I have to revert back to the early part of the thread;

I said:

Well, I think people live better than they did a hundred years ago. And thanks to the progress in science, not religions.

and truth1010 replied:

Say that to a child thats been abused for others to watch via the technology of the internet.

Technolgy has improved many things. But life is still short and for millions very painfull. 70 years isnt that long to live. What with non jehovahs witnesses killing, raping and starving each other to death.

Your reply does not prove my statement wrong. A hundred years ago there were also numerous children abused, only unknown to wider public due to the lack of technology.

A hundred years ago the average lifespan of man was below 50. At present the people that have access to technology live longer and happier than those who do not.

More sick people are cured by doctors using ever-improved technology (including the non-blood treatment) not by faith in god.

Look at the big picture, not just giving an example or two.

Quote:

Blood has even in modern countries been found to have not been checked properly and many diseases have been spread.


um...when?

here... http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...290743012.html

children getting brain damage, people dieing.

And here... http://www.priondata.org/data/A_blood.html

Mad cow disease passed on through blood.

Oh and here... http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/tc4117.asp

Wrong blood given and even when right blood given still people have problems.

Again here... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A963948260

Blood transfusions passing on aids.

Read this... http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/article_02.htm


Prasit,

Your reply does not prove my statement wrong.

I was proving my point right, not trying to prove you wrong. Although whilst proving my point correct i inadvertantly proved you to be wrong.

After years of development we still havent stopped the problems that man faces. All the technology and still no end to the problems we face. A thousand years ago we had abuse, today we have abuse. Mans rule of the earth is causing these problems not solving them.

Id rather live in a world ruled by god than ruled by man under the devil. Thats whya jehovahs witnesses we put our faith in god rather than selfish man made rulers.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

I think we have all asked why is there so many problems in this world?

Why doesnt god intervene?

Well the problems of this world are caused by people turning away from god,away from the bible and the sound reasoning of the bible.

You explain nothing. God does not intervene because the problem to be solved is all about man taking responsibility for his own choices. Therefore God can only intervene in our lives if we make a choice and ask Him to do so. But He intervenes not to our specifications but according to His plan and on His terms for what He determines is important. Our most basic need is not for God to help us out of physical discomforts, but to turn our concerns towards the much more important things having to do with our eternal life.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jesus said " the world is lieing in the power of the wicked one."

As catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, sikhs, hindus, athiests, evolutionists, nazi and communists all are part of this world. Adding to the problems of this world. Hatred and voilence, racism and injustice.

Only jehovahs witnesses refuse to be part of this devil ruled world. We are proud of this.

Jseus said " i am no part of this world and my people are no part of this world."

The reason for all the problems you see, is not god. Its the devil and those who turn away from god.

The world only lies in the power of the devil because human beings puff themselves up with pride and imagine authority for themselves which they do not have. It all began with the devil saying to Eve, "if you eat you will be like God knowing good from evil". But listening only caused Eve to rationalize and justify her sin, calling evil good and calling good evil. So Satan continues in this same pattern today, whispering in everyones ear that they can speak in place of God, dictating to everyone the difference between good and evil. So we have all these groups like the Jehova Witnesses that pretend to speak with the authority of God so that they too can dictate to everyone their own distorted view, calling good evil and evil good. But we must not listen to any of these false prophets for God speaks for Himself, and no human interpretation has any more authority than any other.

So it is clear to me that the Jehova Witnesses are most obedient to these whispers of the devil, usurping the authority of God and puffing themselves up to judge everyone according to their doctrines of men. But by saying this, am I not passing judgement myself? No. It is your own words that condemn you, for your own judgements rebound against you. "As you judge, so you shall you be judged." It is the JWs that judge everyone else to be of the devil, and so you redefine all that is good in others as evil and redifine all that is evil in yourselves as good.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

This video helps people to see... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrEYYKvsNE

http://www.watchtower.org/ Then look here for what god plans to do about the injustice of this world.

God's plan and words are not found in your books but in the Bible. Our hope is not in your people or any people but in God. The JWs are apostate because they no longer point to God or His word but to themselves and their own words. Sure you and the JWs read the Bible and takes it seriously, but your people seem to think that you have to tell everyone what it means, and by doing so you are replacing the words of God with your own.

God's plan and words are not found in your books but in the Bible. Our hope is not in your people or any people but in God. The JWs are apostate because they no longer point to God or His word but to themselves and their own words. Sure you and the JWs read the Bible and takes it seriously, but your people seem to think that you have to tell everyone what it means, and by doing so you are replacing the words of God with your own.

Every word of that is false. Jehovahs witnesses put our faith in god, not man. We use gods holy spirit to learn what god has said.

The above paragragh is wrong and you probably are aware of that. What religion are you mitchell?

God does not intervene because the problem to be solved is all about man taking responsibility for his own choices. Therefore God can only intervene in our lives if we make a choice and ask Him to do so. But He intervenes not to our specifications but according to His plan and on His terms for what He determines is important

explain this to the parents of a terminally ill child, If god has no interest in the suffering of children then hes not exactly someone to follow or worship.

There are two reasons why he doesn't intervine

1) hes sick and you mean nothing to him and prayers are pointless

or the one i believe

2) He doesn't exist and therefore prayers are pointless

Either way its not worth anything

God will resurect any child that has died since adam and eve were created.

But please be clear on this. Its YOU people whove caused these problems. When parents arent abusing their children sure some children die and it happens to jehovahs witnesses. We instead of hating god for mans crimes, put our faith in god to reverse what damage has been done.

Tell me... who built the concentration camps?

God or non jehovahs witnesses.

Who rounded up people and put them in their?

God or non jehovahs witnesses.

"man through his own stupidity ruins his own life, then turns round and blames god."

Originally Posted by Truth1010

God will resurect any child that has died since adam and eve were created.

But please be clear on this. Its YOU people whove caused these problems. When parents arent abusing their children sure some children die and it happens to jehovahs witnesses. We instead of hating god for mans crimes, put our faith in god to reverse what damage has been done.

Tell me... who built the concentration camps?

God or non jehovahs witnesses.

Who rounded up people and put them in their?

God or non jehovahs witnesses.

"man through his own stupidity ruins his own life, then turns round and blames god."

Well technically god must have allowed it unless he turns a blind eye to thousands of women and children dying

This is you same argument for everything. because j'hoovers are such a small group globally they of course they are not going to be involved in many atrocities in the world. Your cult/organisations only been around since the 1870's

Look at the religious group called satanists, there are no major world wide attrocities in the name of them either...

Whats your point?

Caveman jehovahs witnesses are the only people who arent part of satans world.

When catholics, protestants, nazis, jews, muslims, sikh, communist commit crimes they follow the same leader the devil.

We follow god.

Study the teachings of jehovahs witnesses rather than making insults that show youre own lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Caveman jehovahs witnesses are the only people who arent part of satans world.

When catholics, protestants, nazis, jews, muslims, sikh, communist commit crimes they follow the same leader the devil.

We follow god.

Study the teachings of jehovahs witnesses rather than making insults that show youre own lack of knowledge.

Its not an insult, again you are speaking in absolutes. I personally believe that someone who doesn't do everything to save the sick(eg transpalnts, blood transfusions etc)especially children are very sick indeed

This isn't meant as purely to insult but i see it as child abuse

If i didn't feed my children, thats abuse, to not give a child with organ failure a transplant, or a child in an accident blood is exactly the same abuse in my eyes.

I love my children enough to do anything to protect and help them and not to put my beliefs in the way of their wellbeing

As in the song ''Imagine'' from John Lennon, the world would live in peace, when no religions would exist and no countries.

Originally Posted by pashpo

As in the song ''Imagine'' from John Lennon, the world would live in peace, when no religions would exist and no countries.

no religions would be heaven

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

As jehovahs witnesses we teach our children the truth, so they have ahope. We dont feed them lies and turn them away from god.

A world without religion would be no different. The religions of the world dont follow their own teachings so they are a religious anyway. If we had communism, an anti religious theory, then we would be worse off than now.

Only a world where all love god would be a good place to live, that will happen soon.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

As jehovahs witnesses we teach our children the truth, so they have ahope. We dont feed them lies and turn them away from god.

A world without religion would be no different. The religions of the world dont follow their own teachings so they are a religious anyway. If we had communism, an anti religious theory, then we would be worse off than now.

Only a world where all love god would be a good place to live, that will happen soon.

that'll never happen when even the religions cant agree. Theres been thousands of years of life under "gods so called laws" and it was worse than it is today

Athiesm is the way to go, i'll be glad in years to come when everybodys grown out of these fairy tales and people can live in the real(and not fantasy) world

Originally Posted by Truth1010

God's plan and words are not found in your books but in the Bible. Our hope is not in your people or any people but in God. The JWs are apostate because they no longer point to God or His word but to themselves and their own words. Sure you and the JWs read the Bible and takes it seriously, but your people seem to think that you have to tell everyone what it means, and by doing so you are replacing the words of God with your own.

Every word of that is false. Jehovahs witnesses put our faith in god, not man. We use gods holy spirit to learn what god has said.

The above paragragh is wrong and you probably are aware of that. What religion are you mitchell?

Yes, I know you believe every word of that is false. The negation of every statement produces the following.

God's plan and words are found in your books but not in the Bible. Our hope is in your people but not in God. The JWs are not apostate because they no longer point to God or His word but to themselves and their own words.

Hmmm... I am not sure how to negate the last statement there seems to be several options so I will leave that one up to you.

As for my religion, I am a Christian. I only accept the Bible as authoritative, although I do not pretend to know what a great deal of it means. Like the worldwide Christian consensus I find the letters of Paul to be particularly clear in explaining the fundamentals of the Christian faith. And it is therefore the letters of Paul which are particularly useful in spotting deviations from the essential teachings of Christianity. We are saved by the grace of God through the redemption of original sin by the Crucifixion and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus, the Christ and Son of God. Salvation is a gift for us to accept of our own free will and not by merit of any action or belief of our own. We cannot appease God with our sacrifices, manipulate God with our promises, control God with our doctrines or definitions, or hold God to contracts we imagine that we see in the Bible. There is nothing of ourselves in which we can put any trust. We can only find assurance in the goodness and love of God, by putting our trust in Him. By accepting the gift offered us in the gospel we are restored to a personal relationship with God, that Adam and Eve rejected, so that with God's help we can purify ourselves of the sins which destroy our life and free will in order to realize the infinite potential which God gave us, being created in His image.

Jesus is the head of the one true Church, the Holy Spirit is the only administrator, and the only authority for the truth, given into the hands of men, are the written contents of the Bible. No man can judge who is a member of this body of Christ and no man can say who will enter heaven or who will go down to hell, for that judgement is God's alone. There is no mediator between God and Man other than Jesus. All men may study and interpret the Bible as best they can but none have any authority to commit the idolatry of holding their interpretation up as the one truth.

I do not judge the Jehova Witnesses for their interpretation of scripture. They and you are entitled to your opinion. But pridefully grasping and pretending to authority you do not have in the condemnation of everyone who does not agree with your opinions is idolatrous, heretical, and blasphemous against the exclusive perogatives of God.

You may find a lot more explanations on my website (below) on a variety of topics. I am a scientist and a philosopher as well as a Christian, and I feel called by God to work for the reconcilliation of science and Christianity which can only come through the recognition of limitations of the methods of science as well as a recognition of the limitations of the methods of religion. The first step is in understanding what science and religion truly are and the differences between them.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

here... http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...290743012.html

children getting brain damage, people dieing.

You do know you aren't proving anything. What I wanted was a link that showed the percentage of people dying was greater than those living. What you've given, instead, were a lot of links about specific cases (most of which have been given a lot of media attention, and have been resolved).

I was proving my point right, not trying to prove you wrong. Although whilst proving my point correct i inadvertantly proved you to be wrong.

After years of development we still havent stopped the problems that man faces. All the technology and still no end to the problems we face. A thousand years ago we had abuse, today we have abuse. Mans rule of the earth is causing these problems not solving them.

Umm...actually, the rate of abuse per population percentage is increasingly low. You are looking at things incorrectly, just because something still exists doesn't mean it's not at an all time low.
I'm not sure how you are equating anything to anything with that statement. The only way some things like child abuse were to stop would be to make every parent have a license (pass an intelligence test and such) before giving birth or allowing to procreate. Which wont happen, since everyone is vehemently opposed to eugenics.

Id rather live in a world ruled by god than ruled by man under the devil. Thats whya jehovahs witnesses we put our faith in god rather than selfish man made rulers.

Actually, many rulers were the direct opposite of selfish. I've seen many in history refuse things from a pay check to a gift simply because it was "too much" or that it could be spent somewhere better. Humans are capable of a dual spectrum, good/evil, greed/altruism, etc.

Living in a fantasy land where humans are only capable of "evil" through the actions of the devil are one of the reasons why I give the JW's the psychological problem of "dependence" and a type of disorder which causes illusions that I forget the name of...

Umm...actually, the rate of abuse per population percentage is increasingly low.

Please prove this for me.

Abuse still goes on today. Throughout the world. The un said more people live as slaves today than at any other time in human history. Im guessing most people thought slavery had ended, i sure did until i read this.

Since 1914 more people have been killed in wars than in the previous 500 years of wars.

Sadly we have developed new technology but not developed as people.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Umm...actually, the rate of abuse per population percentage is increasingly low.

Please prove this for me.

What type of abuse do you want? Domestic violence? Child abuse? Molestation? Rape?

And, what country?

I am really getting tired of Jeremy's harangue about the "peacefulness" of atheists.

Stalin, Hitler and Mao were all atheists. Hitler is credited with being responsible for 60 million deaths, Stalin also for up to 60 million deaths and Mao tops the list at somewhere between 70 to 80 million deaths.

There are any number of web sites chronicling their murderous regimes

The great bulk of the innocent victims of these heinous people were the results of attempt to purge their regimes of various religious people.

Even Islam, as murderous as those people have been, can't hold a candle to the slaughters racked up by the atheistic bloodthirsty trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

I am really getting tired of Jeremy's harangue about the "peacefulness" of atheists.

Stalin, Hitler and Mao were all atheists. Hitler is credited with being responsible for 60 million deaths, Stalin also for up to 60 million deaths and Mao tops the list at somewhere between 70 to 80 million deaths.

There is no evidence stalin was an atheist, in fact he lead a cult.

Hitler, as discussed on a previous thread, gave severely mixed messages about his chosen religion. Some say catholic, other quotes suggest christian, others atheist. But there is no confirmation, because there's no possible way to ask him.

And mao...that's one I haven't heard. however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao#Cult_of_Mao

Mao started his own cult, similar to stalin. I'm not quite sure "atheist" translates to "he who starts his own cult." Get it right.

There are any number of web sites chronicling their murderous regimes

The great bulk of the innocent victims of these heinous people were the results of attempt to purge their regimes of various religious people.

Even Islam, as murderous as those people have been, can't hold a candle to the slaughters racked up by the atheistic bloodthirsty trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Best part: you can't prove they were atheist. At best, they were psychotic, and at worst, they were all cultists. Atheist? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

I am really getting tired of Jeremy's harangue about the "peacefulness" of atheists.

Stalin, Hitler and Mao were all atheists. Hitler is credited with being responsible for 60 million deaths, Stalin also for up to 60 million deaths and Mao tops the list at somewhere between 70 to 80 million deaths.

There are any number of web sites chronicling their murderous regimes

The great bulk of the innocent victims of these heinous people were the results of attempt to purge their regimes of various religious people.

Even Islam, as murderous as those people have been, can't hold a candle to the slaughters racked up by the atheistic bloodthirsty trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

You may well be right, sadly the ability to kill is not limited to either side, the catholic church has burnt, tortured, maimed, over many hundreds of years, there are any nomber of religious wars throughout history, even Saddam's legacy is unknown but certainly in the millions overall, Stalin and mao may not have been religious but you can hardly compare them to ordinary folk who through sound reasons of science decide not to believe in a God, Stalin by the way killed mostly out of paranoa, although religious people were among his victims they were not the aim. His intent was to ensure no other group could rise to power while he was there, and to instill such fear into the population that none would dare conspire against him. Had he been a deeply religious man his murderous rampage amongst his own people would have still happened.

Adolf Hitler personally instructed that all oaths to his allegiance started with "I swear by God". After the attempt on his life he claimed "You see God has preserved me for a purpose", He may well not have attended church every Sunday but there is compelling evidence to show he had religious feelings deeply ingrained in his psychy.

All men are capable of evil, religion makes no difference.

By the way Jeremy and megabrain look at it; anyone who claims a religion is religious. This is poppycock. Lilly white as I am, if I do something in the name of Korea, that does not make me a Korean. Just because someone invokes the name of God, it does not make him religious and he may well be very anti religious. I see not evidence of any of these men ever responding to a higher power -- they thought they themseves were the highest power.

If Hilter, Stalin and Mao were religious people, then all people, including all atheists are religious.

These men were no more religious than either jeremy or megabrain. And they answered to the same people jeremy and megabrain answer to -- themselves. That is what makes this world scary today. People who believe themselves to be a god unto themselves.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

By the way Jeremy and megabrain look at it; anyone who claims a religion is religious. This is poppycock. Lilly white as I am, if I do something in the name of Korea, that does not make me a Korean.

Wow! Logical fallacy for today kiddies: Comparing an apple to a buick. Compare a religion...to a nationality...gee! The correlation is of utmost logic! Not.

Anyway, religions normally have a set of guidelines which one follows. The difference between nationality and religion is MAJOR not MINOR, and you can't successfully correlate them to provide a coherent argument. Instead, here is the result:

If someone claims a religion, then they most likely abide by what they perceive that religion to be. While most rich evangelical types probably are in it for the money alone, that's what they perceive the religion to be. A money making scheme.

Just because someone invokes the name of God, it does not make him religious and he may well be very anti religious.

Quite the contrary, it doesn't make him part of the majority of that religion. Yet if he follows certain guidelines, or what he THINKS are guidelines, he's still religious.
Furthermore, those "anti-religious" tend to be those against a certain amount, or all other, religions. Most anti-religious people tend to be religious themselves, as they follow a similar pattern.

I see not evidence of any of these men ever responding to a higher power -- they thought they themseves were the highest power.

Ah, but that is where you make a mistake. They were religious, as their cults suggest, simply because they perceived themselves as gods. Their will and ideals forced upon others, in a similar fashion to how the biblical god attempts to do.

If Hilter, Stalin and Mao were religious people, then all people, including all atheists are religious.

Now now, no making obviously stupid statements. Hitlers results are inconclusive (as per usual), and Stalin and Mao had their own religions. These religions acted as many others, they focused on ideals, rules, certain "morals," etc. This is hardly atheistic.

An atheist, on the other hand, differs in the fact they don't follow one large organization lead by one person (or divine person). Granted, many follow science, but that's due to the fact that science itself is a process of observation and explanation, quite the opposite of a religion.

However, in most cases, there is no conclusive evidence that suggests none of them EVER answered to a higher power. Many of them could have been occultists in the background (many state hitler was). Whatever the reason, one cannot correlate these men to atheism simply on the basis that you want them to be atheists.

These men were no more religious than either jeremy or megabrain. And they answered to the same people jeremy and megabrain answer to -- themselves. That is what makes this world scary today. People who believe themselves to be a god unto themselves.

Actually, the only problem with answering to yourself, is when you are incapable of emotion. Superrationality is what works best in this matter, and few are incapable of it (sociopaths, for example).

As for being a god, it's far from the result. If the purpose of a god is for everyone to answer to, than that god certainly isn't very powerful. Assuming we were created, why is it humans have the capability to answer to themselves? Does god give us the ability to sin then say "don't do it"?

However, I'm not quite sure why answering to yourself is scary. If you have the capability of rationality, as well as balanced emotional thinking, no harm should come of it. Evolution at work, preventing total annihilation.

If I put someone on ignore does that mean I do not see their posts or just that I cannot get PMs from them. (that is personal messages not PMS)

What jeremy and mega dont fully grasp is this simple truth.

Hitler, mao, stalin, catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, athiests, evolutionists, sikhs, are all non jehovahs witnesses, they all refuse to worship the one true god.

As ive mentioned before...

Jehovahs witnesses on gods side..

Non jehovahs witnesses on the other side.

Two groups, we all must make our choice. To whom do i belong.

Well i belong to jehovah god. Im happy with that choice.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

What jeremy and mega dont fully grasp is this simple truth.

Hitler, mao, stalin, catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, athiests, evolutionists, sikhs, are all non jehovahs witnesses, they all refuse to worship the one true god.

So, basically, lets remove the fact that there have been no mass murdering buddhists, hindu's, etc. Your religion isn't special, like hundreds of other minor religions and beliefs, they haven't done anything massive yet.

As ive mentioned before...

Jehovahs witnesses on gods side..

Non jehovahs witnesses on the other side.

Two groups, we all must make our choice. To whom do i belong.

Well i belong to jehovah god. Im happy with that choice.

And as we've said before to the muslim (prof): This is a debate forum for scientific discussion. Not one for blind preaching.

Actually, jeremy, this particular section of the forum is dedicated to religious discussion which you have often pointed out is not a science and which you apparently have no need of.

I do not think Mr. U. has given you permission to squelch religious discussion here just because you consider it preaching. And I am pretty sure God has not given you permission to limit debate just because you don't like what religious people have to say.

Actually, if you do not like religious discussion, I do not understand why you enter into the discussions.

There are more than 20 other sections on the science forum which are not dedicated to religious discussion. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable and less threatened by disseminating your vast wisdom and knowledge among those who are intelligent enough to appreciate it rather than among us who see it for what it is.

Originally Posted by daytonturner

Actually, jeremy, this particular section of the forum is dedicated to religious discussion which you have often pointed out is not a science and which you apparently have no need of.

I do not think Mr. U. has given you permission to squelch religious discussion here just because you consider it preaching. And I am pretty sure God has not given you permission to limit debate just because you don't like what religious people have to say.

Actually, discussion is what is promoted here. Not blind preaching. Which is what truth is doing. Furthermore, I'm not doing anything as a "moderator," I'm generally fed up with it. We have gotten enough of it from Prof, now we have a JW, and it's a tad annoying.

Discussion? Good. Blind preaching? Bad.

Actually, if you do not like religious discussion, I do not understand why you enter into the discussions.

I'm sorry, wait, did you just equate "discussion" to "blind preaching"?

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable and less threatened by disseminating your vast wisdom and knowledge among those who are intelligent enough to appreciate it rather than among us who see it for what it is.

Ah yes, and after all we all know how wonderful theists are at seeing intelligence for what it is. Well, my god, it's not every day you get people of the type who can shove aside all recognizable versions of a theory, create their own, then preach it about like it's what scientists actually think.

I mean, gee, to do that you'd need REAL intelligence! No, wait, that's right, real intelligence comes from the divine who was never proven to exist to begin with. NO WAIT! There is proof! After all, just by looking at things you can tell they were created. Nevermind that it's a gross violation of the simple idea of mental perception!

Originally Posted by Truth1010

What jeremy and mega dont fully grasp is this simple truth.

Hitler, mao, stalin, catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, athiests, evolutionists, sikhs, are all non jehovahs witnesses, they all refuse to worship the one true god.

As ive mentioned before...

Jehovahs witnesses on gods side..

Non jehovahs witnesses on the other side.

Two groups, we all must make our choice. To whom do i belong.

Well i belong to jehovah god. Im happy with that choice.

You said "I belong" this means you are a possesion, a puppet. Don't pull too hard on the strings, there's nothing on the other end. Now back to Christams celebrations, a Pagan mid-winter festival to take away the blues of this crap weather.

Megabrain if i belong to god. Then maybe youll realise who you belong to.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Megabrain if i belong to god. Then maybe youll realise who you belong to.

who would that be? Anyone whos religious as well as athiests would belong to the same thing in your eyes.


This "your all satans puppets if your not with us" is standard cult practice

did you get a chance to look over the wikipedia i supplied about the contraversies with j'hoovers? The Unfulfilled predictions of the watchtower, thew covering up of any bad doings by the cult to save face and keep the holier than thou image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controv...%27s_Witnesses

very interesting stuff

Caveman i have less time than most on this forum. But to help you seemingly anti jehovahs witness people.

Using names like j hoovers is prejudice, immature and insulting, all of which makes youre arguements more or less void.

Go to this website and read a few articles. If they have any inaccurcies then point them out to me. Most articles are well written and use scriptures foir clear reference.

http://www.watchtower.org/

truth1010 said:

Hitler, mao, stalin, catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, athiests, evolutionists, sikhs, are all non jehovahs witnesses, they all refuse to worship the one true god.

Most of mainstream Christianty would say that by denying the sonship of Jesus, JW's refuse to worship the one true God.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Caveman i have less time than most on this forum. But to help you seemingly anti jehovahs witness people.

Using names like j hoovers is prejudice, immature and insulting, all of which makes youre arguements more or less void.

Go to this website and read a few articles. If they have any inaccurcies then point them out to me. Most articles are well written and use scriptures foir clear reference.

http://www.watchtower.org/

J'hoovers is the term used locally to myself and avoids the incorrect spelling and that makes my arguments void, how?

you have given no explanations to questions and comments that have been put to you without quoting the bible. And surely the site you have linked to is extremely biased and if you lok in my previous posts full of inacuracies and failed prophecys

We dont deny the sonship of jesus, he is the son of god. Hence his father is god.

If the bible says jesus is the son of god and all other religions say he is god. And the bible states there is only one true religion, then we are clearly that religion.

This article explains who jesus is.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_01.htm

Saying jhoovers, is like people saying niggers or pakis. If the people you are calling it are offended then its offensive. Thats how manners and society work.

Jesus claimed to be God. Real Christians believe it.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

We dont deny the sonship of jesus, he is the son of god. Hence his father is god.

If the bible says jesus is the son of god and all other religions say he is god. And the bible states there is only one true religion, then we are clearly that religion.

This article explains who jesus is.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_01.htm

Saying jhoovers, is like people saying niggers or pakis. If the people you are calling it are offended then its offensive. Thats how manners and society work.

No its nothing like saying those words. J'hoover is me typing the words as they are spoken in my local accent(as ive said because of spelling it) and is nothing to do with a racial slur. The two words you typed are racist words based on somebodys physical being and not on their chose theism

Truth1010, you're not helping yourself here. This is at least the third thread where I've seen 1) you state your case, 2) someone disagrees with you, and 3) you take it personally and get defensive. If what you believe is true, you should be less concerned about name-calling and more concerned about laying out your case clearly, because truth speaks for itself. I happen to agree with you on some things, but the way you present it makes me want to disagree with you regardless. Just a tip.

To shed some light on the question of suffering, I read something recently that I think really appeals to common sense. I wish I had it now so I could directly quote from it, but he said something along the lines that suffering is not only not a problem, it is necessary! Genesis talks about how God created the heavens and the earth, separated light from dark, etc. What he was doing was giving the universe definition. We can't know the meaning of heaven without earth, just like we can't know the meaning of light without darkness.

If we take this concept and apply it to suffering, suffering becomes necessary in order to define the state of peace. I can see how people think God should intervene to take away all our problems, but that would also take away our capacity to understand God in a meaningful way. I think when he created the universe, he intentionally created the possibility for suffering because it means "the peace that passes understanding" has significance.

Also, keep in mind that God hasn't left us completely to our own devices. Christianity teaches that Jesus came as our Savior, even if it isn't in the way we would have liked. The Jews were expecting some sort of political revolutionary, and not a poor carpenter who would be sentenced to death. I believe that Jesus still manifests himself in us today as the Holy Spirit, whether or not we decide to call it that. God doesn't take away suffering, but he makes suffering endurable.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Megabrain if i belong to god. Then maybe youll realise who you belong to.

I would never say that anyone belongs to the devil. Jesus may have said that to people but He and only He has that perogative. That judgement belongs to God alone. Furthermore, I would never have anyone believe that they belong to the devil, for even if someone does as the devil desires, God's offer of eternal life remains and it is the clear command of our Lord that it is for us to point to that opportunity. We must point to the possibility of freedom of salvation and condemn no one. Shall I recognize the right of the devil in his claim over anyone? NO. I will cooperate with the devil in NOTHING. I will recognize the devils right to nothing and to no one. All glory, power and honor to our Lord Jesus and the Father.


P.S. The JWs really bring out the religious part of me. What can say? Their religious intolerance really offends me. No only that but they are an embarassment to all religious people everywhere.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

Know why they object to blood transfusions?

1961 "The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. ... poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits ... The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1961 page 564)

Originally Posted by Its All Relative

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

Know why they object to blood transfusions?

1961 "The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. ... poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits ... The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1961 page 564)

something ive never understood. you accept organ donations. but cannot recieve blood, or even store your own. so that sort of puts a halt to many organ transplants

Originally Posted by Its All Relative

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

Know why they object to blood transfusions?

1961 "The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. ... poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits ... The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1961 page 564)

And lies1010 claims to have the foothold on science....

Lies1010, do you guys practice drilling holes in people's heads to bleed them as they did in the old days?

Since scripture quoting is in vogue I thought I would try it out. So in case anyone is harboring thoughts about infanticide:

"Blessed are the ones who grab your babies and dash them upon the rocks."

Hard to figure out what the Lord is trying to say there. Psalms does contain some wonderful verses and I'm not sure if this is one of them.

Should we interpret the above quote to mean God condones killing babies when necessary, I know He's had a few cracks at it Himself. Does it mean killing babies is only rewarded when you bang them against rocks, rock bashing being the accepted method. Does it mean anyone can make a mistake and 'how the hell did that get in there?' Does it mean the devil kind of sneaked in there to disrupt an otherwise beautiful story, which by the way contains much mayhem. Or does it mean God is a loving God?

Is there something I missed?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Since scripture quoting is in vogue I thought I would try it out. So in case anyone is harboring thoughts about infanticide:

"Blessed are the ones who grab your babies and dash them upon the rocks."

Hard to figure out what the Lord is trying to say there. Psalms does contain some wonderful verses and I'm not sure if this is one of them.

Should we interpret the above quote to mean God condones killing babies when necessary, I know He's had a few cracks at it Himself. Does it mean killing babies is only rewarded when you bang them against rocks, rock bashing being the accepted method. Does it mean anyone can make a mistake and 'how the hell did that get in there?' Does it mean the devil kind of sneaked in there to disrupt an otherwise beautiful story, which by the way contains much mayhem. Or does it mean God is a loving God?

Is there something I missed?

You "forgot" the book, chapter and verse. Without that it is pretty hopless trying to say what is meant by it.

To help:

The bible
Psalm: 137
Verse: 9

8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed,
Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock!

The above uses the NKJV. Different translations change the message slightly. For example, using the NIV:

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Actually, in-context, it says NOTHING about YOU dashing them against the rocks. This was a stupid out-of-context quote that should get a rock dashed against the persons head who quoted it as such.

What it DOES condone, however, is dashing the babies of another civilization against the rocks. Still quite barbaric in my opinion, but on the other hand, psalms is a song (at least I think so. Last I heard...). It's quite possibly very metaphorical.

The next atheist I see quoting out of context with such a stupid display of ignorance will get bitch-slapped. Stop giving atheists a bad name. :P

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

To help:

The bible
Psalm: 137
Verse: 9

This would appear to be a lament from the time of the Babylonian captivity where Jerusalem was razed to the ground and the people take captive. This has a rather curious circumstances involved. I think that Job was written in this same time period and was dealing with much the same religious and philosophical difficulties posed by the experience of the Israelites at this time. The downfall of Israel was actually fortold by the prophets, particularly Jeremiah.

What is interesting, is that we see praise being offered to God while what were essentially the agents of God's will, the Babylonians, are the target of hatred. Perhaps we see some kind of psychological redirection here. I think the Babylonian captivity was particularly difficult for the Jews to endure because, even though they were suffering a doom for their sins, they saw that the Babylonians themselves were far more corrupt and badly behaved than the Israelites ever were. From this experience the Jews appeared to have evolved a doctrine that they were being forged in the fire of God's will, to live up to far greater expections, and to be a kind of example to all the other people of the world. In other words, this experience changed what they thought being the chosen people meant. Rather than meaning that they would receive special consideration, wealth and comfort, being the chosen people meant that they would suffer more than any other people as part of God's plan for the world.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

What it DOES condone, however, is dashing the babies of another civilization against the rocks. Still quite barbaric in my opinion, but on the other hand, psalms is a song (at least I think so. Last I heard...). It's quite possibly very metaphorical.

Well I do not think it condones any such thing. I see no command here being given by God to go out and do such a thing. I see an expression of what the Israelites were feeling as a result of their plight, and putting a rather good face on it in fact, because I have no doubt that many were feeling rather hostile to God at that time. Maybe this psalm was part of the efforts of the priests to redirect that bitterness towards the Babylonians.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Well I do not think it condones any such thing. I see no command here being given by God to go out and do such a thing. I see an expression of what the Israelites were feeling as a result of their plight, and putting a rather good face on it in fact, because I have no doubt that many were feeling rather hostile to God at that time. Maybe this psalm was part of the efforts of the priests to redirect that bitterness towards the Babylonians.

Quite so. It does appear to be more of an expression than something to condone the act.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

The next atheist I see quoting out of context with such a stupid display of ignorance will get bitch-slapped. Stop giving atheists a bad name. :P

Oh please.

Why single out atheists? There's been plenty of drivel put forth by believers as well. It looks to me as if no one can quite figure out Psalms 137:9. Well that's a surprise!!

"Blessed are the ones who grab your babies and dash them upon the rocks"......I'll give it a good Christian meaning: God blesses the people who take children, even forcibly(grabs), who if left to live their lives with nasty parents or guardians would otherwise never get the chance to know God. Dashing them against the rocks is a metaphor for introducing(dashing) the kids to the Bible's books(rocks) itself. In otherwords God gives His blessing to all the child welfare agencies and adopting parents around the world, especially those that are church sponsored and preach the word of God.

I missed my calling. You know, this is easy. I'll bet there isn't a single verse in the Bible that cannot be made to mean something else. However this peculiarity is not just the domain of the Bible, it also goes for anything written.

psst...hey idiot...I'm an atheist myself. I'm saying to shape up your act so atheists don't get a reputation for copying the common evangelical idiots. 'kay?

Also, we DID settle on an interpretation (mitch and me). It appears to be accurate. Your interpretation is just stupid and out of context.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

psst...hey idiot...I'm an atheist myself. I'm saying to shape up your act so atheists don't get a reputation for copying the common evangelical idiots. 'kay?

Also, we DID settle on an interpretation (mitch and me). It appears to be accurate. Your interpretation is just stupid and out of context.

Name calling? Interesting.

Whew! Not too much gets by you. I'll bet you're wonderful at recognizing sarcasm too, oh mighty purveyor of enlightenment, champion for the cause of atheism and proprietor of other noteworthy embellishments too numerous to mention.

You athiest are so stubern always saying give me proof that the bible is true then I tell you how the bible is true but then again give me proof that the bible is real all your trying to do is not here the truth. That's why i hate talking to athiest because they are so stubern.

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Originally Posted by Ezra

You athiest are so stubern always saying give me proof that the bible is true then I tell you how the bible is true but then again give me proof that the bible is real all your trying to do is not here the truth. That's why i hate talking to athiest because they are so stubern.

Actually, we refute claims of truth, then if you continue making them, we ask more proof (and tend to refute it again). Get my drift?

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Originally Posted by Ezra

You athiest are so stubern always saying give me proof that the bible is true then I tell you how the bible is true but then again give me proof that the bible is real all your trying to do is not here the truth. That's why i hate talking to athiest because they are so stubern.

Actually, we refute claims of truth, then if you continue making them, we ask more proof (and tend to refute it again). Get my drift?

Are you in are side or on theres. Because if you are I am not going to talk to you.

Originally Posted by Ezra

You athiest are so stubern always saying give me proof that the bible is true then I tell you how the bible is true but then again give me proof that the bible is real all your trying to do is not here the truth. That's why i hate talking to athiest because they are so stubern.

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out.

Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out. Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

what kind of proof is that.

...I think I hear megabrain either laughing or ripping his hair out going "ARGH".

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

...I think I hear megabrain either laughing or ripping his hair out going "ARGH".

:?

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Had you thinking I really believe what I wrote. The keyboard is definitely mightier than the spoken word. Let it go.....Lighten up!

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Had you thinking I really believe what I wrote. The keyboard is definitely mightier than the spoken word. Let it go.....Lighten up!

It must be if you think I was serious. XD

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Had you thinking I really believe what I wrote. The keyboard is definitely mightier than the spoken word. Let it go.....Lighten up!

yeah

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

It must be if you think I was serious. XD

There are more ways than one to battle the religious establishment. You have yours and I have mine. I have a feeling I've been doing this a lot longer than you, doesn't make me an expert but I have grown tired of the repetitiveness of it all. Another approach is needed. So I tried something different, not mainstream, but did it change anything? No. So nothing's changed. The last thing allies need is to squabble amongst themselves. I can sit here and exchange insults all day if you want but it only makes the cause weaker. I'm done with it. Good luck.

I don't like him because he doesn't forgive people.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out. Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

what kind of proof is that.

I have a certificate of authenticity.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out. Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

what kind of proof is that.

I have a certificate of authenticity.

that's your proof.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out. Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

what kind of proof is that.

I have a certificate of authenticity.

that's your proof.

I'll bet his cat can't talk or even do sign language. So how does MB get the cat to give him the forecast? Mysteries, always mysteries.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

My cat can fly, regularly in the evening I ask him to pop up to 18000 feet and let me know what the weather is like, so I can get my telescope out. Of course it's true, because I say it's true, it's true in the same way the bible is true, no independant proof is neccessary.

what kind of proof is that.

I have a certificate of authenticity.

that's your proof.

I'll bet his cat can't talk or even do sign language. So how does MB get the cat to give him the forecast? Mysteries, always mysteries.

I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

:? You know...perhaps if you were good at sarcasm, people would notice. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

Originally Posted by Ezra

You athiest are so stubern always saying give me proof that the bible is true then I tell you how the bible is true but then again give me proof that the bible is real all your trying to do is not here the truth. That's why i hate talking to athiest because they are so stubern.

Actually, we refute claims of truth, then if you continue making them, we ask more proof (and tend to refute it again). Get my drift?

Are you in are side or on theres. Because if you are I am not going to talk to you.

Oh.... you are not going to do well in this forum at ALL. There are even Christians (like myself) who are not going to put up with that nonsense. Christian or not, I will not support silly irrational arguments just because you happen to be Christian. And if you are going to refuse to talk to people just because they are atheist then you do not belong in this forum at all. This is a place of discussion, where the only common ground expected is the willingness to make an effort to understand what science is all about. May I suggest christianforums.com if you don't want to talk to any atheists, but you going to find even more people there who will not agree with you, so get used to it!

Fine but don't get so mad anways I was going to talk to them. I was just playing man calm down.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Jehovahs witnesses allow transplants. The only thing we object to is blood.

Why the change of heart since this was published then?

”Humans were allowed by God to eat animal flesh and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this include eating human flesh, sustaining one's life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people .... When there is a diseased or defective organ, the usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body uses the food eaten to repair or heal the organ, gradually replacing the cells. When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others” (The Watchtower, November 15, 1967, 702).

Its All Relative wrote:

Why the change of heart since this was published then?

You raise an interesting point. I believe that religious leaders have to adapt their doctrines or the interpretation of the doctrines to fit the current facts and values of that time, in order to continue to survive and even prosper. So it would be enlightening if someone has the information about the interpretation of the doctrines about 50-100 years ago and show it in this this forum.

Originally Posted by prasit

Its All Relative wrote:

Why the change of heart since this was published then?

You raise an interesting point. I believe that religious leaders have to adapt their doctrines or the interpretation of the doctrines to fit the current facts and values of that time, in order to continue to survive and even prosper. So it would be enlightening if someone has the information about the interpretation of the doctrines about 50-100 years ago and show it in this this forum.

Enough already! I keep hearing this stupid double standard. Science changing its mind to fit the evidence is what makes it effective at finding the truth, so would this be wrong for religion? When religion changes its mind to fit the facts and make it work better that is a good thing, right? It is when religion refuses to listen to evidence and refuses to change when there is no good reason not to, that is when religion looks ridiculous.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Enough already! I keep hearing this stupid double standard. Science changing its mind to fit the evidence is what makes it effective at finding the truth, so would this be wrong for religion? When religion changes its mind to fit the facts and make it work better that is a good thing, right? It is when religion refuses to listen to evidence and refuses to change when there is no good reason not to, that is when religion looks ridiculous.

Scientists have changed or modified results to conform with their findings, no question. A great deal of this is done to maintain prestige, protect status, justify a life's work even though it's probably wrong and to assure funding continues, amongst other things. Great scientific discoveries have been thrown out by the establishment, gone unpublished for various reasons such as prejudices and risk of offending a well etablished peer and for other nefarious ridiculous reasons. The one thing that I do notice is that eventually all great scientific discoveries become accepted.

The religions of the world keep a pretty good eye on what science is doing and if it sounds great and it can be woven in to their doctrine with a scripture or two then it makes it easier to accept. God has a lot of pride and the religions of the world make sure He keeps feeling that way and above all no one wants to piss Him off more than He already is. Keeping the good Book in order is a must. Creative accounting is not an Enron domain and it's still fraud any way you look at it.

wheres the world wide scientific claims for this one?

In a 1961 Watchtower it quoted, Dr. Américo Valério, A Brazilian doctor and surgeon for over forty years, when he said, "Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes—these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." In addition reference is made to the book, Who Is Your Doctor and Why? where Doctor Alonzo Jay Shadman says: “The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. It contains all the peculiarities of the individual from whence it comes. This includes hereditary taints, disease susceptibilities, poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits. . . . The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood

this shows why jw's and science dont go together. this would be funny if people didn't believe it and why any scientific claims from the jw's should be taken with a pinch of salt

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Enough already! I keep hearing this stupid double standard. Science changing its mind to fit the evidence is what makes it effective at finding the truth, so would this be wrong for religion? When religion changes its mind to fit the facts and make it work better that is a good thing, right? It is when religion refuses to listen to evidence and refuses to change when there is no good reason not to, that is when religion looks ridiculous.

Scientists have changed or modified results to conform with their findings, no question. A great deal of this is done to maintain prestige, protect status, justify a life's work even though it's probably wrong and to assure funding continues, amongst other things.

But now you are talking about something completely differerent to which the only comparison in religion would be the modification of scripture to match changes in opinion. And yes both of these things do occur in both science and religion but it is universally considered wrong.

But I was not talking about the falsification of evidence but about the change of ideas, theories and doctrines to fit the evidence. Many time we get some religious person in this forum talking trash about science because it changes it mind about things, and we have to carefully explain to them why this is a good thing. So my point was that considering this to be a good thing in science and yet somehow wrong in religion is a double standard.

i think the difference is that religion(most) are constructed around a religious text of one form or another and is slightly more rigid in its explanations with the only fluctuations being from interpretations which still hold true to the existing messages

Truth, Ezra,

HOw come you guys are happy to use the devil's works? PC's Mobile Phones, T'V's radios, Cars, almost every bit of technology you lay your hands on was invented, manufactured, and distributed by one of his followers, don't you think you should praise him now and again?

Not to mention all the medical equipment that has saved lives, all the work of the devil, praise him and long may he live to better our lives even further! Whereas what have the JW's ever done for humanity?

At best no more than a regular free test of the nation's doorbells! 8)

Megabrain all the things you mention, pcs, laptops, internet, cars etc. Are made from gods creations.

So maybe you should thank god for making, making them possible.

When god created us he intended us to use our surroundings to our benefit. But not to destroy our surroundings in doing so. Sadly man has damaged the earth by being deliberately callous as to how weve used our resources.

The bible states " God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

Maybe non jehovahs witnesses could be more gratious about what god has given us by serving god and respecting the environment.

Truth1010 wrote:

Megabrain all the things you mention, pcs, laptops, internet, cars etc. Are made from gods creations.

Then atomic bomb, Heroin, electric chair, cancer and 9/11 are also god's creations. You cannot say when good things happen, they are caused by god, when bad things happen they are caused by men. It is nonsense.

I am also waiting for your reply on Megabrain's question concerning the contribution by JWs to humanity.

Originally Posted by prasit

Truth1010 wrote:

Megabrain all the things you mention, pcs, laptops, internet, cars etc. Are made from gods creations.

Then atomic bomb, Heroin, electric chair, cancer and 9/11 are also god's creations. You cannot say when good things happen, they are caused by god, when bad things happen they are caused by men. It is nonsense.

I am also waiting for your reply on Megabrain's question concerning the contribution by JWs to humanity.

welcome to this thread prasit, its nice to see some more sane comments on this subject :wink:

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Megabrain all the things you mention, pcs, laptops, internet, cars etc. Are made from gods creations.

So maybe you should thank god for making, making them possible.

When god created us he intended us to use our surroundings to our benefit. But not to destroy our surroundings in doing so. Sadly man has damaged the earth by being deliberately callous as to how weve used our resources.

The bible states " God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

Maybe non jehovahs witnesses could be more gratious about what god has given us by serving god and respecting the environment.

"god did it", "god did it", "you are evil", "you are evil" - even Buzz lightyear toys have a wider vocabulary.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Truth, Ezra,

HOw come you guys are happy to use the devil's works? PC's Mobile Phones, T'V's radios, Cars, almost every bit of technology you lay your hands on was invented, manufactured, and distributed by one of his followers, don't you think you should praise him now and again?

Not to mention all the medical equipment that has saved lives, all the work of the devil, praise him and long may he live to better our lives even further! Whereas what have the JW's ever done for humanity?

At best no more than a regular free test of the nation's doorbells! 8)

The truth of the matter is, it is very difficult (especially in this day and age), to not be caught up in the demonic mentality, which is why there is religion. But religion itself is covered with demonic influence which makes it all the more difficult.

Jan.

Prasit wrote...

Then atomic bomb, Heroin, electric chair, cancer and 9/11 are also god's creations. You cannot say when good things happen, they are caused by god, when bad things happen they are caused by men. It is nonsense.

God gave us tools. If people decidee to hurt others with these tools it is their fault NOT gods fault. If i gave you a spade to help you in your gardening then you decided to attack people with that spade, that would be your fault, and not mine.

People must be responsible.

Jehovahs witnesses are responsible for the greatest preaching work ever done. Taking the truths of the bible to people all over the world. Having two of the most read magazines on earth, the watchtower and awake. Both handed out free so that people can see these truths.

Jehovahs witnesses are the representatives of god on earth.Gods people. The meek.

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Prasit wrote...

Then atomic bomb, Heroin, electric chair, cancer and 9/11 are also god's creations. You cannot say when good things happen, they are caused by god, when bad things happen they are caused by men. It is nonsense.

God gave us tools. If people decidee to hurt others with these tools it is their fault NOT gods fault. If i gave you a spade to help you in your gardening then you decided to attack people with that spade, that would be your fault, and not mine.

People must be responsible.

Jehovahs witnesses are responsible for the greatest preaching work ever done. Taking the truths of the bible to people all over the world. Having two of the most read magazines on earth, the watchtower and awake. Both handed out free so that people can see these truths.

Jehovahs witnesses are the representatives of god on earth.Gods people. The meek.

I'm not sure how you can say all none JW's are 'controlled by the devil, then when they invent something you say's it's God's work????

THat really is stretcjhing things a bit far!

Originally Posted by Truth1010

Prasit wrote...

Then atomic bomb, Heroin, electric chair, cancer and 9/11 are also god's creations. You cannot say when good things happen, they are caused by god, when bad things happen they are caused by men. It is nonsense.

God gave us tools. If people decidee to hurt others with these tools it is their fault NOT gods fault. If i gave you a spade to help you in your gardening then you decided to attack people with that spade, that would be your fault, and not mine.

People must be responsible.

Jehovahs witnesses are responsible for the greatest preaching work ever done. Taking the truths of the bible to people all over the world. Having two of the most read magazines on earth, the watchtower and awake. Both handed out free so that people can see these truths.

Jehovahs witnesses are the representatives of god on earth.Gods people. The meek.

The JH's witneses I have come across are not what I consider exceptionally 'good' people.

Reason: They knock my door after dark, usually at supper time, they do not 'listen' to me and they do not respect my 'view' or my request for them to leave.

When JW's were being taught how to preach, why were they not first taught how to behave? How to love and respect fellow man?

How not to judge and condemn and to presume to know more etc etc blah blah blah.

I should have thought before one can presume to preach to others they should first ensure their own house is in order.

Meanwhile
On the subject of good and evil
If there was no bad in this world there would be no good, for good can only exist with evil at it's opposite. From the ashes of despair comes light.