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Thread: Why should it matter not to believe in God?

  1. #1 Why should it matter not to believe in God? 
    ox
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    Either 'he' exists or he doesn't. There is no way to prove it one way or the other.
    But God shouldn't exist because nothing that we know of definitely requires the hand of a creator.
    Bertrand Russell was moved in part to write the essay 'Why I am not a Christian' after reading this quote from the Psalms:
    The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
    And why should there be just one God rather than the original many?
    In the Roman system of gods:
    Venus is love.
    Mars is war ('the Lord is a man of war' in a Handel oratorio).
    Mercury is mercy or understanding.
    Jupiter is joy.
    Saturn is sorrow (the dark night of the soul before redemption).
    Moon is reflection.
    For the Roman Mercury, read the Greek Hermes or the Egyptian Thoth, and so on for all the gods.
    In other words, all gods represent emotions.
    As the One God has all of these then the whole idea of God could be considered a composite and a metaphor for how in most cases, according to human experience, the heart (as the perceived emotional centre) rules the head.

    Every now and then I hear a report of a priest (usually an Anglican) who either does not believe in God or in the historical Jesus. Sometimes they are relieved of their duties or they can be allowed to continue.
    At a rough guess I would say that about 5% of priests do not have a literal belief, and about 20% of any congregation.
    For them God is a human emotion or a weakness in understanding (God of the Gaps) to be ruled by the heart and not the head.

    So did Russell misinterpret it when he read that the fool has said in his heart there is no God?


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    Why does it matter? I don't know, but you seem to feel a need to start a new thread about it every few days.


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    No god? No dead guy on a stick? Nobody has ever thought of that before.

    Meanwhile, pass the gravy.
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    5% of priests? I highly doubt that. That number sounds like rectal extrusion. Why would 1 in 20 men of the cloth continue to follow their calling if they didn't actually believe?

    Oh...and here ya go Fossil...want some biscuits? They're fresh out of the oven.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why does it matter? I don't know, but you seem to feel a need to start a new thread about it every few days.
    Really? Last time I started a thread here was over 6 months ago.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    5% of priests? I highly doubt that. That number sounds like rectal extrusion. Why would 1 in 20 men of the cloth continue to follow their calling if they didn't actually believe?
    They do believe in God as a human emotion, but not in a God who sits on a celestial throne.
    I think they have a point.
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    The belief of one in god or the god depends entirely on who or what one belives a god to be. Religions all have their own view of this, who or what god is, and it might disagree with your own opinion. But regardless, even if you don't believe in god, god believes in you. He believes in you enough that he put you there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    god believes in you. He believes in you enough that he put you there.
    Unsupported claim.
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    Is this your personal belief?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    Is this your personal belief?
    No, it's a fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    He believes in you enough that he put you there.
    Wow! And all this time I thought is was a sweaty half hour in a back of my dad's Chevy pickup one warm July night backed by 4 billions years of evolutionary reproductive adaptation.... who knew some tea pot deity could be responsible?
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    I agree with you there, tea pot dieties, are useless. So then it comes down to what you believe the maker to be, evolution, parents, good deal on a chevy. A good god theroy should at least include all of these. It should be something worth believing in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    A good god theroy should at least include all of these.
    There are no "god theories", good or otherwise.
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    The heart of the contention here isn't the presence or absence of deity, but the abrogation of reason to unwarranted supposition and superstition.
    Fortunately there is a word for this; Apistevist!
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    hypothesis:
    Long ago, before space-time, before all, there existed a GOD. Poor GOD was rather bored, and thought to amuse god. So, GOD, having contemplated the feelings, decided to create a universe. As GOD thought, the universe sprang into existence, and we call that moment of creation the big bang.
    Unfortunately, our GOD seems to have been a tad on the crazy side, and seemingly a tad retarded(compared to the other GODs).
    One of the other GODs said, "GOD, do you realize what you have done?". Our GOD paused for a moment(or a few dozen millenia?) and answered:... "Wut?".

    GOD works in mysterious ways, as do those lucky few who have freed themselves from the constraints of sanity.
    Now, you know ......WHY?!

    Can anyone prove a null hypothesis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    5% of priests? I highly doubt that. That number sounds like rectal extrusion. Why would 1 in 20 men of the cloth continue to follow their calling if they didn't actually believe?

    Oh...and here ya go Fossil...want some biscuits? They're fresh out of the oven.
    Although I definitely think that Rectors, Priest, and that members of a Clergy would be a lot less likely to remain members of a congregation if they lost their faith, I think it's fairly possible. I once thought that people only went to churches and temples because of faith. The congregation that I was affiliated with as a child had one particular family in it. I can honestly say the father of that family was the embodiment of Ned Flanders - not only did he have the moustache, there was also a time that we were carpooling, and everytime there was a bump in the road he'd say, "Bumpity Bump." I'm mentioning this Ned Flanders type guy because, exluding the Minister, he was the most proactive member of the congregation.

    Years later, I think I was 19 at the time, long after I decided that I was not religious, I somehow ended up in a conversation with him about religion. I discovered that he wasn't convinced that God existed, and that he didn't consider himself religious. I asked him, if that was the case, why did he continue going to church. He told me that for him it was not about God, and that it was not about religion or worship. For him it was completely about community. He felt that the church had good people in it, and that the overall experience of community was the reason he went.

    To bring this back to the Clergy, maybe a loss/lack of faith doesn't affect how some feel about the community and their role in the community. They're still leaders, and people that might still have a passion for talking about peoples' better nature. They're still in a role where one of their largest duties is helping people with their own personal dilemmas and conflicts. They're in a role where they bring people together, and I'd like to believe most of them do this for the betterment of not just themselves - but also for the people they bring together. 5% might be a little inflated, but I definitely think it's possibe.
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  18. #17  
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    Yes, in any congregation there is no way of knowing what strength of belief a person has. Some are strict believers, some are deluding themselves, while for others their belief is purely based on emotion. It doesn't matter what they believe, but they are there.
    This sort of mirrors how down the ages God has been redefined for every new generation and for every nation.
    The God of America is one of freedom and liberty, and without slavery, but at one time it included slavery. The God of England is one of no-popery, but at one time it included popery.
    Just to add to the confusion, if you examine the title of this thread it can be read in opposite ways, depending on where you put the punctuation. It is not really the God Delusion. It is more likely the God Confusion.
    So what does it all mean? Can we turn to science for an answer?
    Personally, I think Francis Crick started to get it right with his 'Astonishing Hypothesis'. We, our emotions (joys and sorrows) are no more than the behaviour of nerve cells and molecules. As we go through life our perceptions and emotions change and this is all down to the vast number of interactions that take place unconsciously within our own body. It's as if our cells control us and not the other way around. We become forced into using metaphors for what we don't understand. God becomes a metaphor for our heart ruling our head, but heart is itself a metaphor for our nervous system, and head is a metaphor for our brain neurons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Bertrand Russell was moved in part to write the essay 'Why I am not a Christian' after reading this quote from the Psalms:
    I have read some of Russell's work, but not this particular essay, and after looking at the pdf version of it, I have to say I'm not very impressed by it. I suppose the reason why it fails for me is that the essay contains within it the "Only Orange is a Fruit" fallacy when it was drafted.
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    I'm reminded of an old but wise saying, when these discussions turn up..."To an unbeliever, no explanation is possible, and to a believer, no explanation is necessary."Like a dog chasing his tail, never realizing he is attached to it, likewise are these discussions that are futile, and tedious.
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    "The belief of one in god or the god depends entirely on who or what one belives a god to be. "
    Id say it depends a lot on your environment (because, just between you and me, in reality, there is no god any more than there are leprechauns, but dont spoil the surprise, the brain of each us picks the meme from the environment it perceives ). Few people born in Saudi Arabia in 1997, worship Thor, while few people in Scandinavia 12BC believe in Halla(whatever its spelled), very few Tibetans believe in the Manitou, and most people in Germany in 2013 dont believe in leprechauns/goblins/trolls, while there is a time period and a location where the social environment led human beings to believe leprechauns,etc exited.
    Imo, very few people claim to be agnostic(on the fence) about the superstitions and magical creatures in other cultures/social-environment and only feel they cant call the bullshit for what it is when that bullshit is the culture they grew up with and what people around them believe, they are partially in or influenced by that bubble of delusion.

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    Firstly citation needed on those stats, secondly this is the science forum if you can't use the scientific theory to test it, then theres no point for discussion. Philosophically however I turn your attention to darkmatter2525: "but mostly i wanted to control people and in all these things the god's were useful".

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Either 'he' exists or he doesn't. There is no way to prove it one way or the other.
    But God shouldn't exist because nothing that we know of definitely requires the hand of a creator.
    Bertrand Russell was moved in part to write the essay 'Why I am not a Christian' after reading this quote from the Psalms:
    The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
    And why should there be just one God rather than the original many?
    In the Roman system of gods:
    Venus is love.
    Mars is war ('the Lord is a man of war' in a Handel oratorio).
    Mercury is mercy or understanding.
    Jupiter is joy.
    Saturn is sorrow (the dark night of the soul before redemption).
    Moon is reflection.
    For the Roman Mercury, read the Greek Hermes or the Egyptian Thoth, and so on for all the gods.
    In other words, all gods represent emotions.
    As the One God has all of these then the whole idea of God could be considered a composite and a metaphor for how in most cases, according to human experience, the heart (as the perceived emotional centre) rules the head.

    Every now and then I hear a report of a priest (usually an Anglican) who either does not believe in God or in the historical Jesus. Sometimes they are relieved of their duties or they can be allowed to continue.
    At a rough guess I would say that about 5% of priests do not have a literal belief, and about 20% of any congregation.
    For them God is a human emotion or a weakness in understanding (God of the Gaps) to be ruled by the heart and not the head.

    So did Russell misinterpret it when he read that the fool has said in his heart there is no God?
    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error; but who does strive to do deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
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    It is a fact that anyone that can believe in Einstien can also just as easiely believe in God, god intended this as God does not play dice. For priests there will be nerds exercising the possesed and ignorant by showing them calculators and tossing calculus on them, true believers. There is only one way, the light, the rest all just pagan ignorant. IMHO,God should be allowed to exist as much as anybody else.(edited)
    Last edited by Hill Billy Holmes; November 18th, 2013 at 03:37 AM.
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    God not only plays dice...
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    I think it matters when hundreds of thousands of Filipinos are thanking a god for either saving or sparing their lives. I don't know why I think it matters other than those thanking a deity can't prove He made survivors of them. IOW's you don't know why a god allows a disaster of this magnitude. Yet you think you are more special to your god because you were singled out to live, not like the baby who got washed out to sea to drown. Thanking a god for your survival is no different than calling him/her a murderer. I just wish theists would keep their thoughts to themselves, how's it go?....let people think you're a fool rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt.
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  26. #25  
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    If you are sane, you cannot "know" GOD.
    If you are insane, then we cannot know if you know god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    It is a fact that anyone that can believe in Einstien can also just as easiely believe in God,
    Lol, Yet there is no need to believe in Einstein, He exists/existed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes
    god intended this as God does not play dice.
    If the authors wrote that he did play dice then, he did. But if they didn't, then he didn't, he is after all a fictional character. He can be or do anything they wished to attributed to him. If J K Rowling hadn't made Harry Potter a magician, then he would not have been one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes
    For priests there will be nerds exercising the possesed and ignorant by showing them calculators and tossing calculus on them, true believers.
    What!!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes
    There is only one way, the light, the all just pagan ignorant.
    You're on a roll. What!!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes
    IMHO,God should be allowed to exist as much as anybody else.
    Well he does exist just like Harry Potter, and James Bond, and Winnie the Pooh do. But you, me and the dog down the street, now that's a whole other ball game.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    This 'The Science Forum' is a place of science. Thus it is a contradiction to talk of Gods as if they were real.
    I have attained a age of 61 years without ever have been christened or indoctrinated into any religious group or cult.
    My parents used great wisdom in allowing me that decision as I came to understand., and I claim to.
    While much younger I always have had a quest for knowledge not faith. Faith and belief are to my understanding poor allies.
    I chose to study the Catholic Doctrine and later spent a half year working through my understanding of the Watch Tower's community. I chose to reject the concept of God and Gods. Deciding that good historic record can show that the churches were and still are more to do with money and wealth and land acquisitions. Power and greed. So being Atheist was the only option available that made any sense. I visit many such forums as this and still find pools of fools that find as fact those things that are not able to be tested as found and are sparse of facts. Man made gibberish. It's of some interest as to why those same folk that demand of science, revue and test. Openly lay claim to faith of doubtful substance. and that I am being deliberately generous in not just screaming at them... The belief of God and all of the twists of it, Father Son, Holly spook.. The whole of Genesis can be brushed aside as utter nonsense. Why does it matter ? Because it's not proven as or even testable as truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why does it matter? I don't know, but you seem to feel a need to start a new thread about it every few days.
    Here....have a Kleenex.....if you rather ignore the new old post....I'll join you and we can just "blow". Maybe then God will appear and we will have a religious experience!

    Ox is kind of like the expression "Beating a DEAD horse" in this topic....
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    In the tiny planetary subset of the universe, we could call (man the group of fools),there exists men (women too) who are born learn things understand things. What they have never understood is, who they are, what they are, and how they got there. They call it nature. People that worship nature are known a Wiches,Wicca,Wiccans. Have you ever considered that you might not really be an athiest. There exists a seemingly infinite number of possible religions, most of which have the same common denominator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    In the tiny planetary subset of the universe, we could call (man the group of fools),there exists men (women too) who are born learn things understand things. What they have never understood is, who they are, what they are, and how they got there. They call it nature. People that worship nature are known a Wiches,Wicca,Wiccans. Have you ever considered that you might not really be an athiest. There exists a seemingly infinite number of possible religions, most of which have the same common denominator.
    I know several "WICCANS". They are all good folks. We don't agree on things but I like them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    In the tiny planetary subset of the universe, we could call (man the group of fools),there exists men (women too) who are born learn things understand things. What they have never understood is, who they are, what they are, and how they got there. They call it nature. People that worship nature are known a Wiches,Wicca,Wiccans. Have you ever considered that you might not really be an athiest. There exists a seemingly infinite number of possible religions, most of which have the same common denominator.
    I know several "WICCANS". They are all good folks. We don't agree on things but I like them.
    Also know one. Very nice lady indeed. Even though I think she believes in nonsense, I have a lot of respect for her.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I know several "WICCANS". They are all good folks. We don't agree on things but I like them.
    As do I, complete nutters (in the nicest of ways) but nice people and this is because they don't try to push there beliefs onto you.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    In the tiny planetary subset of the universe, we could call (man the group of fools),there exists men (women too) who are born learn things understand things. What they have never understood is, who they are, what they are, and how they got there. They call it nature. People that worship nature are known a Wiches,Wicca,Wiccans. Have you ever considered that you might not really be an athiest. There exists a seemingly infinite number of possible religions, most of which have the same common denominator.
    I know several "WICCANS". They are all good folks. We don't agree on things but I like them.
    Also know one. Very nice lady indeed. Even though I think she believes in nonsense, I have a lot of respect for her.
    Hey Pavlos and KALSTER ...but *chuckle* if someone major needed correcting....I'd consider trying them!! *chuckle*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    IMHO,God should be allowed to exist as much as anybody else.(edited)
    God's fight for the right to exist.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    I visit many such forums as this and still find pools of fools that find as fact those things that are not able to be tested as found and are sparse of facts. Man made gibberish. It's of some interest as to why those same folk that demand of science, revue and test. Openly lay claim to faith of doubtful substance. and that I am being deliberately generous in not just screaming at them... The belief of God and all of the twists of it, Father Son, Holly spook.. The whole of Genesis can be brushed aside as utter nonsense. Why does it matter ? Because it's not proven as or even testable as truth.
    It is easy to dismiss religion as untestable, illogical, intolerant, discriminatory, unscientific, nonsensical, supernatural, irrational, unproven...until we start running out of adjectives. But I could never be sure about dismissing Pascal's Wager:
    You believe in God:
    If God exists you get to go to heaven, forever.
    If God does not exist, you share the same fate of everyone, theist or not.
    You do not believe in God:
    If God does not exist, you save a lot of time and lose nothing when you die.
    If God does exist, when you die you go to hell for all eternity.
    This vision was probably described by Pascal as a bit of a joke, and who's to say you are backing the right religion and even the right God?
    However Christianity tells me that I only have to repent. I will however leave it until I know the end is near. Even if I get knocked down by a bus it's only going to take one second to say 'I repent'.
    Bad Christians are saved but good atheists are doomed. And you don't even need to put money on it. That's what I call a good deal.

    As for Genesis, have you read The Genesis Enigma by Andrew Parker? Interesting.
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    I hate to say it, but you are senseless due to religion. Listen to what you are saying man. If you don't believe in God he will kill you in the afterlife and it will all be your own fault. Now does this seem like a good reason to believe? Are you also saying God is not at all benevolent, so it is the reason you believe. God the creator created. You the believer believe, but what is it exactly that you believe?
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
    If you don't believe in God he will kill you in the afterlife and it will all be your own fault.
    Unsupported claim.

    Are you also saying God is not at all benevolent
    Patently not.
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  39. #38  
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    Think Hill Billy Holmes is being ...sarcastic?
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    I'm not sure he's got the brains to be sarcastic.
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    Where is the science in this thread? Is this not supposed to be the scientific study of religion?
    As I see it, this thread is no more than an usual atheism vs. theism debate which does not offer anything substantial to this forum.

    I cannot be the only one who is fed up with this.


    PS: Please do note, member ox, that I do not blame you at all.
    I suspect that you have created this thread with good intentions, but in my opinion, it deteriorated quickly.

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    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    I cannot be the only one who is fed up with this.
    You aren't. I think the general discussion subforum may be more suited for non-science discussions such as this.

    An atheistic stance is broadly targeted at any and all theistic concepts of the deities and the supernatural, but far too often I see people speaking about their stance regarding a specific genre of religions; the abrahamic genre being far too common. The Only Orange is a Fruit fallacy seems pretty prevalent when formulating their thoughts on the subject.
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    Because religion has nothing to do with science, even a scientific 'process' of evaluating it, will no doubt spiral into these typical atheist vs. theist exchanges. Which I see nothing wrong with, but it goes against the grain of the sub forum theme. So, in that sense, Cogito makes a valid point.
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    "Is this not supposed to be the scientific study of religion?"
    Yes, but imo its just an excuse to justify, try to fit and force Religion in a science forum, the same way that we could have "the scientific study of Fairy Tales" as a crutch to justify Fairy Tales subject in a Science forum as opposed to being a topic in the General Section along with arts, movies, etc, ~hey this is serious business, were talking about the "scientific" study of Fairy Tales here~
    Last edited by icewendigo; November 18th, 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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    Under the heading of scientific study of religious beliefs, and having the faith. Are or is the core issue.
    We all must respect the right of any to believe and hold as a valued doctrine. The teaching of some of it might be construed as child abuse.. but that's a different subject. People have the right to be wrong. but the question is interesting as to why does it find tolerance in a society that demands scientific revue. Not so much proofs of realities, but of sound common sense. That as and because of intense education it still finds religious doctrines as supported. I doubt the integrity of religious teaching professionals. That I claim a Atheist View as the only option with the integrity I demand is mine.. and that some will find fault with. I expect. It is not for me to be so 'mamby pandy' as to wait till the last moment to seek redemption. For those who follow religious doctrines will know that I can be forgiven. I will add that the voice of God is your own.. I see that as a reality but will not demand it as right.
    That consolations with yourself is the reality of prayer.. will not win any friends. Looking for the science of religiously held doctrines is always going to find argument as for many no option is apparent. I count myself as lucky to be so informed
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Is this not supposed to be the scientific study of religion?"
    Yes, but imo its just an excuse to justify, try to fit and force Religion in a science forum, the same way that we could have "the scientific study of Fairy Tales" as a crutch to justify Fairy Tales subject in a Science forum as opposed to being a topic in the General Section along with arts, movies, etc, ~hey this is serious business, were talking about the "scientific" study of Fairy Tales here~
    Cool!! I Love Fairy Tales.....I'm Rapunzel......the hair issue is not discussable, however.
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    One of the jokes was too close met a girl in an airport then forgot the room ,So I repent ,as only a true religion will help. The Gode, bring him sacrifices of animals daily many many animals then firstborns. The Gode is appeased now you should smite for him, smite with a vengence, or you will be smitten by him swiftly. He has given you the arc of the covenant with cheribs on each side to assure you of victory, use it to good use or be smitten. He will then give you his son in his own image, and he should die to forgive your sins. What kind of a religion is this, scientifically I mean?
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  48. #47 Why should it matter not to believe in God? 
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    Life or Death? It's a personal choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Life or Death? It's a personal choice.
    Whut?
    What does that have to do with believing in god?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Life or Death? It's a personal choice.
    Whut?
    What does that have to do with believing in god?
    Only EVERYTHING
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Only EVERYTHING
    Really?
    How so?
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    Ok...you choose to be born and you choose to die?

    Isn't that kind of whacky?

    I mean...I was born and I certainly am not looking forward to DEATH! sheesh!

    you must be kidding!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Only EVERYTHING
    Really?
    How so?
    Stop pounding your little dinky head and enlighten us, please.

    Nothing less than a metaphysical masterpiece as it will help in my decision, don't you think?
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Under the heading of scientific study of religious beliefs, and having the faith. Are or is the core issue.
    We all must respect the right of any to believe and hold as a valued doctrine. The teaching of some of it might be construed as child abuse.. but that's a different subject. People have the right to be wrong. but the question is interesting as to why does it find tolerance in a society that demands scientific revue. Not so much proofs of realities, but of sound common sense. That as and because of intense education it still finds religious doctrines as supported. I doubt the integrity of religious teaching professionals. That I claim a Atheist View as the only option with the integrity I demand is mine.. and that some will find fault with. I expect. It is not for me to be so 'mamby pandy' as to wait till the last moment to seek redemption. For those who follow religious doctrines will know that I can be forgiven. I will add that the voice of God is your own.. I see that as a reality but will not demand it as right.
    That consolations with yourself is the reality of prayer.. will not win any friends. Looking for the science of religiously held doctrines is always going to find argument as for many no option is apparent. I count myself as lucky to be so informed
    Atheists do need to be careful. In some sense the universe knew we were coming, because it has parameters for the existence of life, and that life is intelligent enough to understand the rules.
    Life, the universe and everything | COSMOS magazine

    Being an atheist in not clear cut, and not for or a theist or an agnostic either.
    Theists need to make a case for a creator, which they can't.
    Agnostics are too similar to atheists as neither believe in God.
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  55. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Being an atheist in not clear cut, and not for or a theist or an agnostic either.
    Do clarify what you meant by "not clear cut".

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Agnostics are too similar to atheists as neither believe in God.
    A deity as defined by various religious beliefs, or an undefined one and not affiliated with any organized religion?
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  56. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    In some sense the universe knew we were coming, because it has parameters for the existence of life
    You appear to be confusing "cause" and "effect".

    and that life is intelligent enough to understand the rules
    Do you think intelligence is a requirement?
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    I could not be more sure that the 'Universe' does not have conciseness.. No, to knew we were coming. No, to prepared for us.
    That RNA and DNA molecules can prevail is not a given. We seem to be able to assert that the conditions that tolerate life as we know it should soon be found as common, but for now are rare. That is the way of scientific revue. Is it not ?
    Being Atheist is very clear. I am sure of my stance that no God is real. A imagined construct of humanity. That a agnostic might have some doubts and can be said as unsure.. Can OX see the difference ?
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  58. #57 Knowing Everything 
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    Knowing Everything: The Mystery Paradox By Dr. Jeff Mirus December 5,2012 We moderns don't like to admit there is anything we don't know. We experience a kind of dreadful insecurity in admitting ignorance. And the suggestion that somebody else might know more than we do is a terrible affront to our pride. More tribal men and women of former ages might have found relief by relying on the collective knowledge and understanding of tradition. But when each person sees himself as the proud architect of his own individual destiny, we desperately cling to the notion that we must know everything ourselves. And to preserve our status we must appear to know everything whether we really do or not. Now in a certain light ,this insistence on knowing is a necessary human quality. In and of itself it confirms the remarkable truth that we are possessed of something called intellect , that for us, therefore, knowledge is in itself a good, and that, at least some of the time, we can also use knowledge in the service of other goods, to solve human problems. But the odd thing about our insistence on both knowing and appearing to know is that it can also produce the opposite of what we intend. Particularly in what we call the information age, the insistence on knowing everything has arguably led to a systemic ignorance of all that matters most. As we will see shortly, when it comes to really knowing, disposition is nine points of the law. I'll provide examples of what I mean in a moment , but first let me frame the point as a broad principle: In so far as we demand to know in a sort of self-centered way, our pride and self-love encourage us to settle for information, the perennial lazy mans' short cut to intellectual self satisfaction, so that we can appear to know everything. Information creates the illusion of knowledge. Moreover when we can not reasonably claim to know what we do not know, this same self-love encourages us to deny the significance or even the existence of anything beyond our ken. And so we convince ourselves of one of three positions: What we don't know isn't worth knowing. Or what we don't know can not be known. Or what we don't know is not known because it simply does not exist. Now this is really quite striking, because what we have here are the working philosophies of the three types of persons who most frequently claim to be among the wise. I mean, in reverse order, the atheist, the agnostic, and the ass. If anyone is interested in reading the entire article by Jeff Mirus and would like a link instead of finding it yourself I'd be happy to oblige. It is an excellent read-there must be some interest in these three "dreaded A-Words.
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    Calculate
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    must obey
    about 3
    3.14
    3.1428
    3.lot of numbers with a few reocuring sequences
    relationship between twice the distance from the center point of a circle to the outer circumfrence
    relationship of the diameter to the circumfrence
    if pi were a whole number all other numbers would would include reoccuring fractions
    the number pi is just wrong
    did god give us pi
    why
    could he take it back
    was god given pi
    was it apple pi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Calculate
    I can draw a circle without having to know the value of pi. So is pi just a human invention. So why should I calculate it? What will that do?
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    Fields Medal now please.

    :EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
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    3.lot of numbers with a few reocuring sequences
    And no, transcendental numbers are irrational. Hence, cannot be expressed as a fraction of integers with a non zero denominator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post


    Fields Medal now please.

    :EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
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    3.lot of numbers with a few reocuring sequences
    And no, transcendental numbers are irrational. Hence, cannot be expressed as a fraction of integers with a non zero denominator.
    Does pi = the circumference/diameter? If the can be measured and divided will that yield Pi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post


    Fields Medal now please.

    :EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Billy Holmes View Post
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    3.lot of numbers with a few reocuring sequences
    And no, transcendental numbers are irrational. Hence, cannot be expressed as a fraction of integers with a non zero denominator.
    Does pi = the circumference/diameter? If the can be measured and divided will that yield Pi?
    Robbity, you're like 60, yes?

    Do not be so liberal with me. Even if I do absolutely nothing, I can foresee conversing with me on this forum is going to get you banned.

    In fact, just don't talk to me altogether.

    Bye.
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    I don't see how my age has anything to do with a maths question. I am 60, yes, and so are a lot of the others around here, so why make it an issue? I find it rather embarrassing to have a request to not to ask you a question or post on a thread broadcast like that. That is totally unacceptable surely? Leave what happened elsewhere elsewhere, that is what the moderators have already said. I am trying to do that.
    I have been looking at YT and things to try and understand your math comments so it was a genuine question. I don't think I deserved such a rebuke.
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  66. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Calculate
    I can draw a circle without having to know the value of pi. So is pi just a human invention. So why should I calculate it? What will that do?
    ~ I see this little off topic and not so much understanding why 'Beer w/straw' is being so aggressive.. I might suggest removing the straw ( from the beer ) and things could go better 'er.. Bob; I suspect you already know why we use pie.. Like finding a volumes or areas of a circle or sphere.. radial velocities can be extrapolated by those that understand the maths of those subjects.. Yes we can work with a compass. If I want for the area of circle I need to use pie as in pie R squared.. = guess what ? and or was that the volume... Sigh, look what you've done.. I would much prefer to discuss the subject; Is it OK to tell lies to children ? No.
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Knowing and blah, blah blah etc.
    What was the point in posting this nonsense?
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    I hold the view that all things spiritual are not supported by science and that being supported by scientific revue is important to learning what is or is not truth. That I can not hold a religious doctrine as true is for me science. No God is found. That I can use the methods of scientific revue to show no action of the human soul is supported. Can we show of what the soul is ? No we can not without a belief structure that remains a leap of faith. Science does not recognize faith and belief as things that are real, You seem to. That's fine. For you that might be enough. I do not yield to your view, I see it as wrong. I think you know that science demands a higher qualification than belief. Science by it's very doctrine can never be wrong. Remaining open to change and revue as information demands and dictates it should. Testing and challenging at every opportunity. That I notice a overlap of subjects from the trash can, have a place as scientific revue must dictate.. but still interesting.
    Is this the inherent weakness of humanity ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Knowing and blah, blah blah etc.
    What was the point in posting this nonsense?

    A quick Google search led me to this article:
    Knowing Everything: The Mystery Paradox - Catholic Culture

    It is basically stating that atheists are slaying straw men with information and that information (and an open mind) leads to embracing the Christian God.
    Nothing new here.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    We moderns don't like to admit there is anything we don't know. We experience a kind of dreadful insecurity in admitting ignorance. And the suggestion that somebody else might know more than we do is a terrible affront to our pride.
    This may be true of a subset of "moderns" (Mods?) such as politicians but one group it definitely doesn't apply to is scientists and, I hope, engineers. They thrive on being aware of their ignorance and having problems to solve.

    I don't see what this has to do with atheism or your earlier comments on god(s) though.

    Edit: I see you plagiarized (stole) that text from someone else without giving credit. That is not very nice. It is a good job your religion doesn't consider theft a mortal sin. Oh, hang on ...
    Last edited by Strange; November 20th, 2013 at 05:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Well, Hill Billy Holmes is a better conversationalist, I tell you.

    No dialogue will come from a cut and paste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Knowing and blah, blah blah etc.
    What was the point in posting this nonsense?
    A quick Google search led me to this article:
    Knowing Everything: The Mystery Paradox - Catholic Culture

    It is basically stating that atheists are slaying straw men with information and that information (and an open mind) leads to embracing the Christian God.
    Nothing new here.
    Yup. I read it before declaring it to be nonsense.
    But it doesn't seem to address the questions I asked of dinky.
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    WHY are you required to believe in god?

    Hey if I did, I'm pissed off.

    I am dinky!!

    as in

    I am 5'3 100 pounds max and a ginger.


    IF it mattered....I should be able to request to be at least 5'7....with a killer body and I'll keep the ginger....

    SO IT DOESN"T MATTER!

    I am still going to be 5'3 and about 100 pounds .....and *cough* with the other attributes *chuckle*

    I don't have to believe in GOD to be myself.
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    Oh yeah, and transcendental also deals with the spiritual. So trying to understand if is truly random is in essence my search for God.

    Hence, I win!

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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Being an atheist in not clear cut, and not for or a theist or an agnostic either.
    Do clarify what you meant by "not clear cut".
    I find many interpretations of atheism, just as there are many interpretations of theism.
    Hard atheists might believe that all theists are fools. But the evidence must match the theory.
    Hard atheism:
    All theists are fools because they believe in God. (False).
    All atheists are not fools because they don't believe in God. (False).
    Soft atheism:
    There is probably no God.
    Theists are simply deluded.

    What is atheism anyway? Is it a belief, a faith, a theory, a philosophy?
    Russell was probably an atheist, and he answered a question to his own satisfaction with his essay 'Why I am not a Christian'. It even got him out of trouble with the law.
    Books on atheism are very entertaining, but so are some books in the Bible (Genesis, Daniel, Psalms, Revelation). The neo atheists - Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris (sounding like a firm of accountants) apply reason and logic to almost prove there is no God up there. But they can't. In my view the terms theist, atheist, and agnostic should now be considered redundant, and they should be replaced by the terms deism and adeism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Oh yeah, and transcendental also deals with the spiritual. So trying to understand if is truly random is in essence my search for God.

    Hence, I win!

    Oh my gosh, that is side-splitting HILARIOUS, Beer w/Straw! Ididn’t expect that.
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  77. #76  
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    "There is probably no God."
    To me, thats like saying the jurry is out on the ~magical pink unicorn orbiting Pluto~, we dont have proof either way, so, there is "probably" no magical pink unicorms going around and around in orbit of Pluto. No one would say this, unless they are influenced by a cultural trait (bubble of delusion). Look at your culture and its history. (hint, the year in 2013, because of our cultural history in which a certain magical character was important). What is the magical incredible thing that is a part of it?(god) Now, is anyone here saying, "humm, Im not sure, but there is probably no Thor". No. No one in current cultures entertains the notion of Thor existing. Why? Because unlike people in ancient times in Scandinavia, its not part of the social beliefs of the epoch and region. So. If you dont believe in Thor, Zeus, Leprechauns, Witches flying on a broomstick, dragons, the only reason why you are on the fence about a magical being called God, is because it was part of your environment that shaped your frame of reference and is taken to be true/part of the landscape of reality, a priori.
    Why is Zeus so easy to dismiss? Mostly because we are not in something BC in Greece, to people then it would have been as hard to cut the crap as it appears to be for some people in our time with the magical god of the day.
    Last edited by icewendigo; November 20th, 2013 at 10:22 AM. Reason: added a reference
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Oh yeah, and transcendental also deals with the spiritual. So trying to understand if is truly random is in essence my search for God.

    Hence, I win!
    Pi - random? Pi = Pi it ain't random.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Oh yeah, and transcendental also deals with the spiritual. So trying to understand if is truly random is in essence my search for God.

    Hence, I win!
    That, because in order for free will, there has to be randomness. So the question remains:

    Is a normal number?

    God these religious discussions are hard!
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    Everyone calculating Pi gets exactly the same sequence of numbers, there was a method (Pi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and I tried it for a while but the process just kept refining Pi to an ever increasing level of accuracy. Everyone using the same method gets exactly the same sequence. I can't see it has anything to do with "free will" or God. But I'll let the forum teach me something if I'm wrong.

    Normal number? Define that please.
    Decimal: The first 100 decimal digits are 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679
    Normal number?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number
    Last edited by Robittybob1; November 20th, 2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Normal number defined
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  81. #80 Very bad science 
    Forum Freshman dinky's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Strange;489844]
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Edit: I see you plagiarized (stole) that text from someone else without giving credit. That is not very nice. It is a good job your religion doesn't consider theft a mortal sin. Oh, hang on ...
    Completely false accusations and assumptions lmao
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  82. #81  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Edit: I see you plagiarized (stole) that text from someone else without giving credit. That is not very nice. It is a good job your religion doesn't consider theft a mortal sin. Oh, hang on ...
    Completely false accusations and assumptions lmao
    Let me google that for you.

    Unless your name is Dr. Jeffrey Mirus......

    Edit: I see now you did in fact credit Dr. Mirus. My sincere apologies. -> Why should it matter not to believe in God?
    Last edited by KALSTER; November 20th, 2013 at 07:32 PM.
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    If things were entirely deterministic or indeterministic we would not have free will. Determinism would simply be cause and effect. Indeterminism would have things too random (God plays dice - I believe you wanted more input on that - Either Niels Bohr: "Stop telling God what to do with his dice." or Hawking: "Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen.") for morality to have meaning. There are two distinct arguments for free will each opposing one of those against. And there is also the argument that a combination of determinism and indeterminism negates free will anyway.

    A normal number basically is irrational and without any digit appearing more frequently than another. Zero through nine would each have a one in ten chance of showing up. It's like playing with dice that are fair. Even though the first 30 million or so digits in seem uniformly distributed it isn't proven that is in fact a normal number. Hence, how could we even begin to fathom if we have free will or not, which is a prerequisite for God, if we can't say for certain if that God plays with loaded dice or not?

    is trascendental. It is spiritual and thought provoking beyond ordinary common experience. I think the record is 5 trillion digits calculated so far.

    Happy?



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  84. #83  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Hence, how could we even begin to fathom if we have free will or not, which is a prerequisite for God
    Whut?
    How is free will a prerequisite for the existence of god?
    Bearing in mind that if god exists, with the attributes ascribed (specifically omniscience), free will cannot exist.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    I think it's a given for every religion.

    Don't ask me to argue the logic of it.
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  86. #85  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Bearing in mind that if god exists, with the attributes ascribed (specifically omniscience), free will cannot exist.
    How does a timeless, invisible being merely observing all of your choices and thoughts throughout your life destroy free will?

    (to be sure there are other things that make free will impossible imo)
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  87. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dinky View Post
    Knowing and blah, blah blah etc.
    What was the point in posting this nonsense?
    A quick Google search led me to this article:
    Knowing Everything: The Mystery Paradox - Catholic Culture

    It is basically stating that atheists are slaying straw men with information and that information (and an open mind) leads to embracing the Christian God.
    Nothing new here.
    Yup. I read it before declaring it to be nonsense.
    But it doesn't seem to address the questions I asked of dinky.
    I was posting something I found interesting in response to a request from elegant Beerw/Straw. See post#52 It's not all about me and I am in no way Catholic or religious in any other way. I'm not answering to any man. Here is something about me.........I can not pound my dinky little head and drink beer with a straw at the same time.
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    The ever increasing digits in Pi are simply the way the number is calculated by Man. In nature it is a lot more random. No globe would be truly spherical when looked at a microscopic level. Even a ball bearing maybe jagged.

    The Moon and Earth have mountains and lakes so Pi to that degree of accuracy is a waste of time in Nature.
    Where is the example of God using Pi to 30 million digits?
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    So I take it your not happy.
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  90. #89  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    How does a timeless, invisible being merely observing all of your choices and thoughts throughout your life destroy free will?
    If god is omniscient then he knows what "choice" you'll make before you make it.
    That means that the choice is pre-ordained - you cannot pick anything other than what he/ she/ it knows you'll pick.

    IOW all we're doing is following a script - one that isn't known to us.
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  91. #90  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The ever increasing digits in Pi are simply the way the number is calculated by Man. In nature it is a lot more random.
    Crap.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Are you talking to a 60 year old and asking him if he is happy about being reminded he has just turned 60? Even the objects the require Pi have free will, and they form a shape based on their own haphazardness but at the same time following basic laws of physics.
    e.g. Planets being formed by accretion of dust from the protoplanetary disc. Random or determined by Pi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The ever increasing digits in Pi are simply the way the number is calculated by Man. In nature it is a lot more random.
    Crap.
    How did they find those digits?
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    Hey, you're lucky I even replied to you.
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  95. #94  
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    Why do people insist in having expectations of GOD?
    Really an oxymoron if ever there was one.

    There is a ZEN saying "If I was disappointed, it was because I expected too much."

    GOD ain't here to serve you you arrogant pig, you are here to serve GOD.
    Or, not if you do not believe in "GOD".
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    Lucky or unlucky time will tell. I didn't like the thought of an inevitable banning simply because you and I are in the same thread.
    Don't you think I learn from my mistakes?
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  97. #96  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    How does a timeless, invisible being merely observing all of your choices and thoughts throughout your life destroy free will?
    If god is omniscient then he knows what "choice" you'll make before you make it.
    That means that the choice is pre-ordained - you cannot pick anything other than what he/ she/ it knows you'll pick.

    IOW all we're doing is following a script - one that isn't known to us.
    Let's say I watch you through some binoculars choose between either giving a street person some money or not (or whatever) and travel back in time with that knowledge. Have I somehow removed your freedom to make that choice?
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  98. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How did they find those digits?
    They were calculated from nature.

    Even the objects the require Pi have free will
    Whut?

    e.g. Planets being formed by accretion of dust from the protoplanetary disc. Random or determined by Pi?
    Neither.
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Let's say I watch you through some binoculars choose between either giving a street person some money or not (or whatever) and travel back in time with that knowledge. Have I somehow removed your freedom to make that choice?
    If you travel back in time (and end up in the same continuum - i.e. one where I make the same choice) then that shows I didn't make a choice.
    You haven't removed my choice - the fact that knowledge of the future is possible (if it actually is) means that the future is fixed. If it's fixed then there is no choice possible.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How did they find those digits?
    They were calculated from nature.

    Even the objects the require Pi have free will
    Whut?

    e.g. Planets being formed by accretion of dust from the protoplanetary disc. Random or determined by Pi?
    Neither.
    What is the shape of a duck's egg? Did the duck have to know how to calculate Pi to lay the egg?
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is the shape of a duck's egg? Did the duck have to know how to calculate Pi to lay the egg?
    Could you address the points made rather than haring off at tangents?
    Pi occurs naturally: the duck doesn't have to know maths.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; November 21st, 2013 at 12:25 AM.
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